barry bonds did not need to take steroids if you look at his stats beforehe hit the 73 hrs year. he was a mvp many times before and a hall of famer before. now when he hits 756 will they cheer him like when hank arron hit 715 off of al downing?
That's a word you'd have a hard time looking up the definition of,
in today's Funk and Wagnalls, given the actions of folks (these days).
I disagree. It doesn't matter. I think steroids, have a place in sports and society. That is only my opinion. Our opinions differ, which is a good thing.
Are you suggesting that I have no integrity or that I don't know what integrity means?
and by 'these days' do you mean to say that in 'other days' people had more integrity? In my view various people from all time periods have had a lack of integrity while others have been full of integrity.
Training methods change over time. They evolve to better the athletes performance.
Did you know that in the 1950's that it was illegal for a MLB player to lift weights? If he was caught, he would be fined? They thought that lifting weights was bad for the players health (it would make the player stiff and muscle bound). Science and practice have found the opposite to be true.
Who has more integrity, a racist society, or one that uses steroids? (just a comparison to the 'other days')
Did you know that Babe Ruth did not play against all the best players of his day? He only played against white players. No blacks, no minorities. Now days players from all across the world are in the MLB. Interesting to think about this. Would you rather go back to a racist society and a segregated MLB or would you rather have to deal with the steroid scandal of today?
not that im going to convince you of anything. you are a smart man who will make a rational decision, but I just thought I'd share a couple reasons why I made that statement, which I should have done in the first place.
Hey there Nandon. :)
Nawww -- I wasn't accusing anyone of anything, nor was I assuming anything about your knowledge on the subject either. Sorry if it came across that way. :( I guess what I did mean was this:
I equated steroids with a lack of *integrity*, because to me it is a pill that anyone can buy.
It doesn't represent the *honesty* (if you will) of many hours of working out,
and perfecting your sport/ skill/ or whatever.
In other words -- I see it as a *short-cut* to greatness.
An apt comparision (to me), would be fiddle contests. I've been in many.
I've won a few. I've taken second, third, (or NOTHING), in more than I've won.
The folks I lost to were generally classically trained violinists.
I've never had a lesson in my life. But I don't begrudge them the victories.
Although they paid for and received lessons --
it was still up to them to practice and perfect their training through hours of hard work.
It wasn't some pill that could be popped gaining them instant acclaim.
So while I agree with you whole-heartedly that training methods change over the years,
I'm hesitant to include the use of performance enhancing drugs as a part of that.
(Btw -- thanks for the trivia tidbit about weight-lifting --- I didn't know that!!)
For the record, I know little about baseball, but when major news stories (such as this one),
make the front page of local newspapers, I tend to get interested, and look into it a bit more.
I'm seeing one guy who has a record (earned by blood, sweat, and tears) about to be broken by:
someone with talent, yet taking drugs to enhance that talent.
To me --- that's not a different training method. It's a short-cut --- but that's just my imo.
The only sport I follow *religiously* is the Tour de France. Lance kicked butt 7 years in a row.
A cancer patient in 1996 to winner of the Tour de France seven consecutive times,
(from 1999 to 2005), wasn't accomplished by steroids. It was work and dedication.
So while you make a valid point that training methods change over the years ---
nothing (imo) beats sweating it out in one's particular venue of competition.
P.S. -- No one can compete against EVERYONE who does the same thing. I know the name Babe Ruth, but if asked about him I could only reply that he was a baseball player who seems kinda famous for what he accomplished. I don't know if he is dead or alive (these days).
P.P.S. -- speaking of *these days* -- that's a vebal *tic* of mine that I commonly insert in phrases spoken to folks physically present (regardless of the content of conversation), or in posts on various boards that I happen to frequent.
Being an older guy -- it's my (maybe NOT so subtle way) of saying things have changed,
Nawww -- I wasn't accusing anyone of anything, nor was I assuming anything about your knowledge on the subject either. Sorry if it came across that way. :( I guess what I did mean was this:
I equated steroids with a lack of *integrity*, because to me it is a pill that anyone can buy.
It doesn't represent the *honesty* (if you will) of many hours of working out,
and perfecting your sport/ skill/ or whatever.
In other words -- I see it as a *short-cut* to greatness.
An apt comparision (to me), would be fiddle contests. I've been in many.
I've won a few. I've taken second, third, (or NOTHING), in more than I've won.
The folks I lost to were generally classically trained violinists.
I've never had a lesson in my life. But I don't begrudge them the victories.
Although they paid for and received lessons --
it was still up to them to practice and perfect their training through hours of hard work.
It wasn't some pill that could be popped gaining them instant acclaim.
So while I agree with you whole-heartedly that training methods change over the years,
I'm hesitant to include the use of performance enhancing drugs as a part of that.
(Btw -- thanks for the trivia tidbit about weight-lifting --- I didn't know that!!)
For the record, I know little about baseball, but when major news stories (such as this one),
make the front page of local newspapers, I tend to get interested, and look into it a bit more.
I'm seeing one guy who has a record (earned by blood, sweat, and tears) about to be broken by:
someone with talent, yet taking drugs to enhance that talent.
To me --- that's not a different training method. It's a short-cut --- but that's just my imo.
The only sport I follow *religiously* is the Tour de France. Lance kicked butt 7 years in a row.
A cancer patient in 1996 to winner of the Tour de France seven consecutive times,
(from 1999 to 2005), wasn't accomplished by steroids. It was work and dedication.
So while you make a valid point that training methods change over the years ---
nothing (imo) beats sweating it out in one's particular venue of competition.
P.S. -- No one can compete against EVERYONE who does the same thing. I know the name Babe Ruth, but if asked about him I could only reply that he was a baseball player who seems kinda famous for what he accomplished. I don't know if he is dead or alive (these days).
P.P.S. -- speaking of *these days* -- that's a vebal *tic* of mine that I commonly insert in phrases spoken to folks physically present (regardless of the content of conversation), or in posts on various boards that I happen to frequent.
Being an older guy -- it's my (maybe NOT so subtle way) of saying things have changed,
since I was a youngster. ;)
(EFS)
David
When you take steroids they do not make you stronger unless you workout hard and eat enough calories to sustain the muscle and strength. Often times this means that a steroid user will end up spending more time in the gym. Which is why workout addicts like steroids. When they take steroids, their bodys can handle longer more intense workouts. These longer workouts and the recovery benefits of steroids combined with appropriate nutrition and ample sleep lead to a stronger athlete.
Steroids do not help your sports skills. They can actually hurt your skills because your body is getting stronger at an unusual pace. Athletes often times get muscle cramps or severe "pumps" in their muscles, because the muscle are developing at a faster rate and require more nutrition and more rest from the longer workouts.
Some Steroids are pills. But these are typically the weaker versions of steroids. Plus oral steroids are liver toxic so anyone who values thier health stays away from orals. Most steroids are taken by injection.
Steroids have many potential side effects. Side effects are genetic, meaning that some people have many sides, some people have none. Due to the side effect potential of steroids, anyone who values their health, gets their blood levels checked on a regular basis and changes the amounts of steroids that they are using based on their blood test results. Most people who have money, get blood levels checked every 2-3 months while on a cycle or at least at the begining, middle and end of the cycle, to ensure that they are using a "safe" or proper amount for them.
A savy steroid user not only knows the side effects, he also knows that other drugs can offset the negative sides of steroids. A smart user will purchase an anti-estrogen drug, and an HPTA stimulator for every cycle. These drugs are very common for steroid users, not all NEED them, but it is a good idea to have them so that the user can recover from the cycle. there are many other "anti-side" effect drugs out there. There are some for those who have a history of male pattern baldness, or high cholesterol. These are the two major negative side effects that users worry about. Anti-estrogen drugs are: nolvadex, or clomid, The HPTA drug is HCG, male patter baldness drugs are any of the anti-balding drugs currently on the market (they block dht in the scalp). The high cholesteral drugs are the same ones you see on TV or get from your doctor.
Steroid cylces are very complicated, injections are tedious and dangerous unless you know how to inject properly, and can be unsanitary if you don't know the correct cleansing processes.
What I am trying to say, is that someone who does steroids is not taking a shortcut. They are actually doing more work. They get more results, yes. But they are earning it. More work in the weight room, more discipline in thier diet, more work on their skills to keep coordination.
This is my opinion based on first hand experiance. I used steroids for 6 weeks to help me recover from a back injury. I had tried all other avenues, therapy, rest, rehab. Nothing worked. So i began researching. I don't know how I got the idea that steroids would help my back. After many months of research I decided it was my last resort. I used them for 6 weeks along with my usual rehab exercises, and my back is still feeling great (2 years later).
I am an avid basketball player. I played in HS and college. I didn't use the steroids in college, I injured my back in college (which ended my career) but I didn't take steroids till 5 years later. BUT---when i was on steroids, It did not help me on the basketball court. I was a bit stronger in the weight room, i put on a few lbs of muscle, but to my surprise they didn't help me on the court. I couldnt' shoot or dribble as well, I couldn't move as well, it was wierd.. I also got those back pumps, which hurt like hell. (back pumps are when the erector spinae muscle cramp up).
I think steroids have a place in society and sports. I do not consider them a shortcut. I do not think they should be over the counter drugs. I think doctors should be able to prescibe them to people for any reason, so that people can use them safely. I think they should be taxed and the money should be used for schools.
Having said all that, I understand your point. I hope my point is clear to you as well. I also want to say that there is a difference between use and abuse of steroids or any drug (alcohol, pot, etc...). Abuse leads to many health problems. But with proper knowledge of steroids, diet, and working out steroids are a very safe drug. (notice the use of the word "drug", im not saying they are "safe" in general, but in the context of drugs, they are safe if not abused.
I am not pro-steroids in sports though. If these guys didn't do steroids, i wouldn't care. I just know that these guys are trying to do anything to get better: diet, exercise, practice, meditation, prayer/superstition. I guess its only natural for the competative athlete to gravitate to drug usage to improve themself. I wonder how long before surgery is able to improve an athletes performance, or genetic modification. I wonder if I will be saying the same things about "performance enhancing surgery" or "perfromanc enhacing gentic alteration" that you are saying about steroids when those issues come up.
Who knows. Take care and thanks for your opinions and for making it clear that you weren't insulting me.
When you take steroids they do not make you stronger unless you workout hard and eat enough calories to sustain the muscle and strength. Often times this means that a steroid user will end up spending more time in the gym. Which is why workout addicts like steroids. When they take steroids, their bodys can handle longer more intense workouts. These longer workouts and the recovery benefits of steroids combined with appropriate nutrition and ample sleep lead to a stronger athlete.
(snip)
What I am trying to say, is that someone who does steroids is not taking a shortcut. They are actually doing more work. They get more results, yes. But they are earning it. More work in the weight room, more discipline in thier diet, more work on their skills to keep coordination.
This is my opinion based on first hand experiance. I used steroids for 6 weeks to help me recover from a back injury. I had tried all other avenues, therapy, rest, rehab. Nothing worked. So i began researching. I don't know how I got the idea that steroids would help my back. After many months of research I decided it was my last resort. I used them for 6 weeks along with my usual rehab exercises, and my back is still feeling great (2 years later).
I think steroids have a place in society and sports.I do not consider them a shortcut. I do not think they should be over the counter drugs. I think doctors should be able to prescibe them to people for any reason, so that people can use them safely. I think they should be taxed and the money should be used for schools.
Having said all that, I understand your point. I hope my point is clear to you as well. I also want to say that there is a difference between use and abuse of steroids or any drug (alcohol, pot, etc...). Abuse leads to many health problems. But with proper knowledge of steroids, diet, and working out steroids are a very safe drug. (notice the use of the word "drug", im not saying they are "safe" in general, but in the context of drugs, they are safe if not abused.
(snip)
Who knows. Take care and thanks for your opinions and for making it clear that you weren't insulting me.
Hey --- thanks for the informational response in return! I learned something today.
I didn't know they had a valid medical benefit, such as you described.
Since I've not really read up much on the subject -- I see I missed some aspects of it entirely.
And yes -- I tend to shy away from insulting folks, at least intentionally that is.
I have heard accounts of guitar players and other stringed instrument players who have had surgery to sever certain tendons. This is to keep the hand from configuring itself in the way that it is naturally prone to do.
This allows the artist to articulate passages that are beyond the scope of normal motion.
I do not have much info on this other than hearsay.
It's not a shortcut.
It's painful, permanent and takes plenty of healing and rehabilitation time.
Still, it diminishes the true value of the finished product which should represent what the human body is capable of,
in and of itself.(IMO)
I would much rather hear one single note that is straight from the soul than a flurry of notes that are the result of some unnatural process.
I am not too knowledgeable about sports, but , to me, at least, there seems to be a bit of a parallel between artificial assistance in music and sports.
I guess what it all comes down to is that the ticket buying public expects as much bang as they can get for their buck.
As long as money is at the heart of the issue, I don't think this subject will be resolved any time soon.
I don't think steroid use will account for the ability Bonds has to see and hit the ball. His "eye" and abiliity to evaluate pitches, pitchers and their styles and patterns, as well as to take advantage of the unexpected - all of that comes from years of work and training and being in the game. His body strength and conditioning would relate to how hard he can hit the ball yes, but it also plays more into his long term health I would think, staying healthy and able to play.
I read a few years ago his Dad was talking about how he'd worked with Barry in hitting practice - one of the things he'd do with him - they'd load up a pitching machine with numbered balls and Bonds would practice trying to see the numbers on the balls, and for a stretch look to hit just the evens, then the odds.
Also - baseball history shows you don't have to have strength to hit a homerun - Dimaggio comes to mind there, he didn't have exceptional strength. Overall to get your singles and doubles as well as homeruns, it takes other skills too.
Giambi is an example of steroid use gone awry I think - he ballooned up, hit good for a season there, and then his hitting took a dump. I don't know for sure but it didsn't seem like he was as committed over the long haul to developing himself.
Bonds is big but doesn't have that pro-wrestler "Hulk" look. He looks like a man who trains aggressively. I would guess, just my opinion - that steroids may have helped him some but not over the long haul.
Best hit I saw him take was a few years ago, at Pac Bell - he hit one out towards McCovey cove, and literally swung the bat through the ball, breaking it and shattering it in half, one piece flying out on the field and the other still in his hands, and it went out of the park. Absolutely the most incredible hit I've ever seen. That hit represented a "very" hard swing and impact, no question, but I think it was also just "one of those things", that might happen once every million hits or something. Bats break all the time, but don't break in half and the ball go out of the park. :)
Hey --- thanks for the informational response in return! I learned something today.
I didn't know they had a valid medical benefit, such as you described.
Since I've not really read up much on the subject -- I see I missed some aspects of it entirely.
And yes -- I tend to shy away from insulting folks, at least intentionally that is.
:)
it was a scary thing for me. Getting that dang, then using it. I had read how to do it, but it was still illegal. So, it was an unpleasant time for me, but it worked, and i've never had to use them again. Now i can do all the things i could before my back problems.
waysider-- i've never heard of that before. Kinda crazy what people will do to get better. In a way i respect it. Getting better is all about altering ourselves, giving something up, in order to receive something I guess.
I heard that in his 30s Barry's hat size increased by half a size and his shoe size increased by 3 sizes. Yes, definitely steroids or something similar. Major League Baseball was pretty lax on this until recently. For example, some of what Mark McGuire took to beef up was outlawed for the NFL, but up until recently was legal for Major League Baseball. Mark even confessed to what he was taking.
I disagree. It doesn't matter. I think steroids, have a place in sports and society. That is only my opinion. Our opinions differ, which is a good thing.
Are you suggesting that I have no integrity or that I don't know what integrity means?
and by 'these days' do you mean to say that in 'other days' people had more integrity? In my view various people from all time periods have had a lack of integrity while others have been full of integrity.
Training methods change over time. They evolve to better the athletes performance.
Did you know that in the 1950's that it was illegal for a MLB player to lift weights? If he was caught, he would be fined? They thought that lifting weights was bad for the players health (it would make the player stiff and muscle bound). Science and practice have found the opposite to be true.
Who has more integrity, a racist society, or one that uses steroids? (just a comparison to the 'other days')
Did you know that Babe Ruth did not play against all the best players of his day? He only played against white players. No blacks, no minorities. Now days players from all across the world are in the MLB. Interesting to think about this. Would you rather go back to a racist society and a segregated MLB or would you rather have to deal with the steroid scandal of today?
not that im going to convince you of anything. you are a smart man who will make a rational decision, but I just thought I'd share a couple reasons why I made that statement, which I should have done in the first place.
I wonder whether, some 60 years after Hitler's death, we might at least venture to ask what the moral difference is between breeding for musical ability and forcing a child to take music lessons. Or why it is acceptable to train fast runners and high jumpers but not to breed them. I can think of some answers, and they are good ones, which would probably end up persuading me. But hasn't the time come when we should stop being frightened even to put the question?
If we allowed performance enhancers, wouldn't breeding be the next step? Or some type of genetic manipulation?
If we allowed performance enhancers, wouldn't breeding be the next step? Or some type of genetic manipulation?
yes.
however, even with "performance enhancers" being disallowed, breeding and genetic manipulation will be the next step. or some type of advantageous surgery.
Bonds* hit is 752nd* and 753rd* Homeruns tonight to put him within 2 homers of the Babe. Hope no one minds the astericks. If they could do it to a true power hitter like Maris, I figure they can do it to Mr. Roids.
Bonds* hit is 752nd* and 753rd* Homeruns tonight to put him within 2 homers of the Babe. Hope no one minds the astericks. If they could do it to a true power hitter like Maris, I figure they can do it to Mr. Roids.
Well barry bonds did it 756. Hank arron was graceious. But bonds still had this cloud over his head. Whats he going to do now? I hear that the ball he the guy caught will not be worth as much mark mcquire.A lot of people cheered him. I was not one of them.I looked at a sports station. hank arron hr was better in 1974 off al downing there was more drama to it! If bonds played 2 more years gets 3000 hits and tries to get the world record 829 (pardon my spelling) sadoharo OH the japanise player who hit 828. Bonds will never be a class act like Mr. arron or Mr. OH!
Well barry bonds did it 756. Hank arron was graceious. But bonds still had this cloud over his head. Whats he going to do now? I hear that the ball he the guy caught will not be worth as much mark mcquire.A lot of people cheered him. I was not one of them.I looked at a sports station. hank arron hr was better in 1974 off al downing there was more drama to it! If bonds played 2 more years gets 3000 hits and tries to get the world record 829 (pardon my spelling) sadoharo OH the japanise player who hit 828. Bonds will never be a class act like Mr. arron or Mr. OH!
Well,
Hank Aaron, I congratulate him on being a class act. I can't say the same for Bonds. The Roids issue will always stick with me leaving Hank as the Homerun king. I can't say I trust too many baseball records anymore.
Eagle I could not have put it better myself. Coolchief I am not saying Mr. oh was a better Hr hitter than aaron.from what I read about Mr. Oh is a very classy guy. It very clear why bonds it it wanted to get the numbers and be the greatest of all time, because of the steriod issue. Mr bonds will never be the greatest.
That is if he is back next year. He does have a possible indictment looming over him. If Griffey can stay healthy I can see him getting over 700 and no hint of steroids there.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I will not cheer him from my seat
I will not cheer him on my feet
I will not cheer him in a bar
I will not cheer him from afar
I will not cheer him for his slam
I will not cheer him, Sam I am.
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dmiller
Hey there Nandon. :)
Nawww -- I wasn't accusing anyone of anything, nor was I assuming anything about your knowledge on the subject either. Sorry if it came across that way. :( I guess what I did mean was this:
I equated steroids with a lack of *integrity*, because to me it is a pill that anyone can buy.
It doesn't represent the *honesty* (if you will) of many hours of working out,
and perfecting your sport/ skill/ or whatever.
In other words -- I see it as a *short-cut* to greatness.
An apt comparision (to me), would be fiddle contests. I've been in many.
I've won a few. I've taken second, third, (or NOTHING), in more than I've won.
The folks I lost to were generally classically trained violinists.
I've never had a lesson in my life. But I don't begrudge them the victories.
Although they paid for and received lessons --
it was still up to them to practice and perfect their training through hours of hard work.
It wasn't some pill that could be popped gaining them instant acclaim.
So while I agree with you whole-heartedly that training methods change over the years,
I'm hesitant to include the use of performance enhancing drugs as a part of that.
(Btw -- thanks for the trivia tidbit about weight-lifting --- I didn't know that!!)
For the record, I know little about baseball, but when major news stories (such as this one),
make the front page of local newspapers, I tend to get interested, and look into it a bit more.
I'm seeing one guy who has a record (earned by blood, sweat, and tears) about to be broken by:
someone with talent, yet taking drugs to enhance that talent.
To me --- that's not a different training method. It's a short-cut --- but that's just my imo.
The only sport I follow *religiously* is the Tour de France. Lance kicked butt 7 years in a row.
A cancer patient in 1996 to winner of the Tour de France seven consecutive times,
(from 1999 to 2005), wasn't accomplished by steroids. It was work and dedication.
So while you make a valid point that training methods change over the years ---
nothing (imo) beats sweating it out in one's particular venue of competition.
P.S. -- No one can compete against EVERYONE who does the same thing. I know the name Babe Ruth, but if asked about him I could only reply that he was a baseball player who seems kinda famous for what he accomplished. I don't know if he is dead or alive (these days).
P.P.S. -- speaking of *these days* -- that's a vebal *tic* of mine that I commonly insert in phrases spoken to folks physically present (regardless of the content of conversation), or in posts on various boards that I happen to frequent.
Being an older guy -- it's my (maybe NOT so subtle way) of saying things have changed,
since I was a youngster. ;)
(EFS)
David
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nandon
When you take steroids they do not make you stronger unless you workout hard and eat enough calories to sustain the muscle and strength. Often times this means that a steroid user will end up spending more time in the gym. Which is why workout addicts like steroids. When they take steroids, their bodys can handle longer more intense workouts. These longer workouts and the recovery benefits of steroids combined with appropriate nutrition and ample sleep lead to a stronger athlete.
Steroids do not help your sports skills. They can actually hurt your skills because your body is getting stronger at an unusual pace. Athletes often times get muscle cramps or severe "pumps" in their muscles, because the muscle are developing at a faster rate and require more nutrition and more rest from the longer workouts.
Some Steroids are pills. But these are typically the weaker versions of steroids. Plus oral steroids are liver toxic so anyone who values thier health stays away from orals. Most steroids are taken by injection.
Steroids have many potential side effects. Side effects are genetic, meaning that some people have many sides, some people have none. Due to the side effect potential of steroids, anyone who values their health, gets their blood levels checked on a regular basis and changes the amounts of steroids that they are using based on their blood test results. Most people who have money, get blood levels checked every 2-3 months while on a cycle or at least at the begining, middle and end of the cycle, to ensure that they are using a "safe" or proper amount for them.
A savy steroid user not only knows the side effects, he also knows that other drugs can offset the negative sides of steroids. A smart user will purchase an anti-estrogen drug, and an HPTA stimulator for every cycle. These drugs are very common for steroid users, not all NEED them, but it is a good idea to have them so that the user can recover from the cycle. there are many other "anti-side" effect drugs out there. There are some for those who have a history of male pattern baldness, or high cholesterol. These are the two major negative side effects that users worry about. Anti-estrogen drugs are: nolvadex, or clomid, The HPTA drug is HCG, male patter baldness drugs are any of the anti-balding drugs currently on the market (they block dht in the scalp). The high cholesteral drugs are the same ones you see on TV or get from your doctor.
Steroid cylces are very complicated, injections are tedious and dangerous unless you know how to inject properly, and can be unsanitary if you don't know the correct cleansing processes.
What I am trying to say, is that someone who does steroids is not taking a shortcut. They are actually doing more work. They get more results, yes. But they are earning it. More work in the weight room, more discipline in thier diet, more work on their skills to keep coordination.
This is my opinion based on first hand experiance. I used steroids for 6 weeks to help me recover from a back injury. I had tried all other avenues, therapy, rest, rehab. Nothing worked. So i began researching. I don't know how I got the idea that steroids would help my back. After many months of research I decided it was my last resort. I used them for 6 weeks along with my usual rehab exercises, and my back is still feeling great (2 years later).
I am an avid basketball player. I played in HS and college. I didn't use the steroids in college, I injured my back in college (which ended my career) but I didn't take steroids till 5 years later. BUT---when i was on steroids, It did not help me on the basketball court. I was a bit stronger in the weight room, i put on a few lbs of muscle, but to my surprise they didn't help me on the court. I couldnt' shoot or dribble as well, I couldn't move as well, it was wierd.. I also got those back pumps, which hurt like hell. (back pumps are when the erector spinae muscle cramp up).
I think steroids have a place in society and sports. I do not consider them a shortcut. I do not think they should be over the counter drugs. I think doctors should be able to prescibe them to people for any reason, so that people can use them safely. I think they should be taxed and the money should be used for schools.
Having said all that, I understand your point. I hope my point is clear to you as well. I also want to say that there is a difference between use and abuse of steroids or any drug (alcohol, pot, etc...). Abuse leads to many health problems. But with proper knowledge of steroids, diet, and working out steroids are a very safe drug. (notice the use of the word "drug", im not saying they are "safe" in general, but in the context of drugs, they are safe if not abused.
I am not pro-steroids in sports though. If these guys didn't do steroids, i wouldn't care. I just know that these guys are trying to do anything to get better: diet, exercise, practice, meditation, prayer/superstition. I guess its only natural for the competative athlete to gravitate to drug usage to improve themself. I wonder how long before surgery is able to improve an athletes performance, or genetic modification. I wonder if I will be saying the same things about "performance enhancing surgery" or "perfromanc enhacing gentic alteration" that you are saying about steroids when those issues come up.
Who knows. Take care and thanks for your opinions and for making it clear that you weren't insulting me.
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dmiller
Hey --- thanks for the informational response in return! I learned something today.
I didn't know they had a valid medical benefit, such as you described.
Since I've not really read up much on the subject -- I see I missed some aspects of it entirely.
And yes -- I tend to shy away from insulting folks, at least intentionally that is.
:)
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
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waysider
I have heard accounts of guitar players and other stringed instrument players who have had surgery to sever certain tendons. This is to keep the hand from configuring itself in the way that it is naturally prone to do.
This allows the artist to articulate passages that are beyond the scope of normal motion.
I do not have much info on this other than hearsay.
It's not a shortcut.
It's painful, permanent and takes plenty of healing and rehabilitation time.
Still, it diminishes the true value of the finished product which should represent what the human body is capable of,
in and of itself.(IMO)
I would much rather hear one single note that is straight from the soul than a flurry of notes that are the result of some unnatural process.
I am not too knowledgeable about sports, but , to me, at least, there seems to be a bit of a parallel between artificial assistance in music and sports.
I guess what it all comes down to is that the ticket buying public expects as much bang as they can get for their buck.
As long as money is at the heart of the issue, I don't think this subject will be resolved any time soon.
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socks
I don't think steroid use will account for the ability Bonds has to see and hit the ball. His "eye" and abiliity to evaluate pitches, pitchers and their styles and patterns, as well as to take advantage of the unexpected - all of that comes from years of work and training and being in the game. His body strength and conditioning would relate to how hard he can hit the ball yes, but it also plays more into his long term health I would think, staying healthy and able to play.
I read a few years ago his Dad was talking about how he'd worked with Barry in hitting practice - one of the things he'd do with him - they'd load up a pitching machine with numbered balls and Bonds would practice trying to see the numbers on the balls, and for a stretch look to hit just the evens, then the odds.
Also - baseball history shows you don't have to have strength to hit a homerun - Dimaggio comes to mind there, he didn't have exceptional strength. Overall to get your singles and doubles as well as homeruns, it takes other skills too.
Giambi is an example of steroid use gone awry I think - he ballooned up, hit good for a season there, and then his hitting took a dump. I don't know for sure but it didsn't seem like he was as committed over the long haul to developing himself.
Bonds is big but doesn't have that pro-wrestler "Hulk" look. He looks like a man who trains aggressively. I would guess, just my opinion - that steroids may have helped him some but not over the long haul.
Best hit I saw him take was a few years ago, at Pac Bell - he hit one out towards McCovey cove, and literally swung the bat through the ball, breaking it and shattering it in half, one piece flying out on the field and the other still in his hands, and it went out of the park. Absolutely the most incredible hit I've ever seen. That hit represented a "very" hard swing and impact, no question, but I think it was also just "one of those things", that might happen once every million hits or something. Bats break all the time, but don't break in half and the ball go out of the park. :)
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nandon
it was a scary thing for me. Getting that dang, then using it. I had read how to do it, but it was still illegal. So, it was an unpleasant time for me, but it worked, and i've never had to use them again. Now i can do all the things i could before my back problems.
waysider-- i've never heard of that before. Kinda crazy what people will do to get better. In a way i respect it. Getting better is all about altering ourselves, giving something up, in order to receive something I guess.
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Mark Sanguinetti
I heard that in his 30s Barry's hat size increased by half a size and his shoe size increased by 3 sizes. Yes, definitely steroids or something similar. Major League Baseball was pretty lax on this until recently. For example, some of what Mark McGuire took to beef up was outlawed for the NFL, but up until recently was legal for Major League Baseball. Mark even confessed to what he was taking.
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Bolshevik
Dawkins once wrote:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/...60608090207.htm
If we allowed performance enhancers, wouldn't breeding be the next step? Or some type of genetic manipulation?
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nandon
yes.
however, even with "performance enhancers" being disallowed, breeding and genetic manipulation will be the next step. or some type of advantageous surgery.
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Bolshevik
We'll need bigger ballparks.
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Eagle
Bonds* hit is 752nd* and 753rd* Homeruns tonight to put him within 2 homers of the Babe. Hope no one minds the astericks. If they could do it to a true power hitter like Maris, I figure they can do it to Mr. Roids.
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nandon
you mean hank not the babe...
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dmiller
Babe Hank???
(Is that like Hank Jr. ???)
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waysider
More like Hank III.
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Eagle
OOPS!
That's right. Thanks, Nandon. It is Hank, not Babe. Too much caffiene at GS here!
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nyunknown
Well barry bonds did it 756. Hank arron was graceious. But bonds still had this cloud over his head. Whats he going to do now? I hear that the ball he the guy caught will not be worth as much mark mcquire.A lot of people cheered him. I was not one of them.I looked at a sports station. hank arron hr was better in 1974 off al downing there was more drama to it! If bonds played 2 more years gets 3000 hits and tries to get the world record 829 (pardon my spelling) sadoharo OH the japanise player who hit 828. Bonds will never be a class act like Mr. arron or Mr. OH!
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Eagle
Well,
Hank Aaron, I congratulate him on being a class act. I can't say the same for Bonds. The Roids issue will always stick with me leaving Hank as the Homerun king. I can't say I trust too many baseball records anymore.
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coolchef
eagle
i could't agree with you more than i do!
remember that the japan ball field is shorter than in the usa
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polar bear
Yep it's not just him it's the system.
He should be kicked out of the league.
What a great example for upcoming kids wanting to get into baseball.
Standards have gone in the toilet I guess.
How can he be compared to those great ball players who did it with no help from drugs.
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nyunknown
Eagle I could not have put it better myself. Coolchief I am not saying Mr. oh was a better Hr hitter than aaron.from what I read about Mr. Oh is a very classy guy. It very clear why bonds it it wanted to get the numbers and be the greatest of all time, because of the steriod issue. Mr bonds will never be the greatest.
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bulwinkl
That is if he is back next year. He does have a possible indictment looming over him. If Griffey can stay healthy I can see him getting over 700 and no hint of steroids there.
john
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