Barry Bonds, who was a good hitter (hitting about 35 homers a year) suddenly showed up one year looking like the incredible hulk and smashed 75 homers in one season...Babe Ruth's best year was 60...
So what do you all think?...steroids or "Mr. Natural"???
Perhaps using the term "performance enhancers" instead of "steroids" would broaden the scope of the discussion.
Shouldn't this be in "Keep your Eye on the Ball" or something...
I put this one in the open forum because it's not so much about baseball as it is about steroid use...
When Roger Maris hit 61 homers and broke Babe Ruth's record of 60, they put an asterisk next to his record because he did it in 162 games and Ruth did it in 154 games...
...I wonder if they should put an asterisk next to Barry's name?
Barry Bonds, who was a good hitter (hitting about 35 homers a year) suddenly showed up one year looking like the incredible hulk and smashed 75 homers in one season...Babe Ruth's best year was 60...
So what do you all think?...steroids or "Mr. Natural"???
Barry Bonds is to baseball, as docvic was to biblical research.
...And he's about to break Hank Aaron's record...HANK AARON!!!...it breaks my heart to see such a great record being broke by a guy who did it on self enhancing drugs...
He and his records will always be tainted in my eyes.
And, it isn't a question of whether he is "Mr. Natural" or not, is it? Wasn't it already proven that he has used performance enhancing steroids? I didn't think that was in question anymore...
And for the faithful fans, who just can't seem to accept reality,
Just take a look at the physiques of some of these guys. As Groucho already alluded to, one season they look pretty much like everybody else on the team, then all of a sudden (and at age 30 something!) they put on 30 pounds of muscle and their stats go from "good" to spectacular - all in the space of a few months.
Then take a look at guys like McGwire who've left the game, and VOILA! a few months later and they're just a weeny-looking Joe again. Kinda makes one wonder...
Barry Bonds, who was a good hitter (hitting about 35 homers a year) suddenly showed up one year looking like the incredible hulk and smashed 75 homers in one season...Babe Ruth's best year was 60...
So what do you all think?...steroids or "Mr. Natural"???
If it doesn't matter to you, feel free to not comment on it...
I started this thread because Mr. Spiritual took exception to my remarks about Barry on another thread...and he's yet to come to the defense of his hero...just goes to show you...
It matters. I agree with you. Hank Aaron was natural. NO steroids. Just a consistent home run hitter. Willie Mays was natural, a consistent home run hitter. Roger Maris was natural, no steroids, just had a natural swing and power (and it didn't hurt him batting after Mickey Mantle). And Mickey Mantle and his incredible bulk physique...came from the coal mines as a teenager. No steroids. (He was on pain killers a lot, but that hampered more than helped. Babe Ruth, another natural, no steroids, just a lot of hot dogs and beer.
McGuire, Sosa (steroids and a corked bat), and Bonds. None deserve the Hall of Fame. No matter what records are broken. They deserve the Hall of Shame.
When Bonds "breaks" the record, Hank Aaron in my STRONG opinion, will STILL be the Home Run King.
There is still the option I suggested in the Baseball thread: bean him every time he comes to bat. (Why waste three pitches?) If he's still concious, bean him at first base.
There is still the option I suggested in the Baseball thread: bean him every time he comes to bat. (Why waste three pitches?) If he's still concious, bean him at first base.
That's a word you'd have a hard time looking up the definition of,
in today's Funk and Wagnalls, given the actions of folks (these days).
I disagree. It doesn't matter. I think steroids, have a place in sports and society. That is only my opinion. Our opinions differ, which is a good thing.
Are you suggesting that I have no integrity or that I don't know what integrity means?
and by 'these days' do you mean to say that in 'other days' people had more integrity? In my view various people from all time periods have had a lack of integrity while others have been full of integrity.
Training methods change over time. They evolve to better the athletes performance.
Did you know that in the 1950's that it was illegal for a MLB player to lift weights? If he was caught, he would be fined? They thought that lifting weights was bad for the players health (it would make the player stiff and muscle bound). Science and practice have found the opposite to be true.
Who has more integrity, a racist society, or one that uses steroids? (just a comparison to the 'other days')
Did you know that Babe Ruth did not play against all the best players of his day? He only played against white players. No blacks, no minorities. Now days players from all across the world are in the MLB. Interesting to think about this. Would you rather go back to a racist society and a segregated MLB or would you rather have to deal with the steroid scandal of today?
not that im going to convince you of anything. you are a smart man who will make a rational decision, but I just thought I'd share a couple reasons why I made that statement, which I should have done in the first place.
nandon...You make some valid points. Although comparing two evils (racism and steroids) does not justify either...
As far as steroid use goes, it against the rules...and that makes it wrong. If they can keep Pete Rose out of the hall of fame for what he did, I think that Barry Bonds should be banned from baseball...
In the Olympics, medals are forfeited...if they find out that they were on steroids...
I'd just throw nothing but breaking pitches and spit balls, no fastballs whatsoever. They did that to Ken Harrelson (the Hawk) after he stupidly announced in an interview with Ken Coleman (Red Sox Announcer) with the Boston Globe sportswriters present that the secret to his success was waiting for a fastball. That was all he swung at.
He was on the verge of taking the American league Triple Crown in 1968 right after Yaz did it, then all the pitchers just stopped giving him fastballs. His homeruns dried up and batting average shot down. He maintained the RBI title barely. Yaz overtook him to get the batting title batting just .301 and Frank Howard, who was just behind Harrelson, surged forth and finished with 44 that year to Harrelson's 35.
barry bonds did not need to take steroids if you look at his stats beforehe hit the 73 hrs year. he was a mvp many times before and a hall of famer before. now when he hits 756 will they cheer him like when hank arron hit 715 off of al downing?
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Danny
Can I vote?
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Jim
Shouldn't this be in "Keep your Eye on the Ball" or something...
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waysider
Perhaps using the term "performance enhancers" instead of "steroids" would broaden the scope of the discussion.
Just a thought.
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Danny
performance enhancers
Sorry I couldn't miss this one.
Would that be one of those blue pills?
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waysider
Well, I've heard they can improve one's ability to "score".
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GrouchoMarxJr
I put this one in the open forum because it's not so much about baseball as it is about steroid use...
When Roger Maris hit 61 homers and broke Babe Ruth's record of 60, they put an asterisk next to his record because he did it in 162 games and Ruth did it in 154 games...
...I wonder if they should put an asterisk next to Barry's name?
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dmiller
Barry Bonds is to baseball, as docvic was to biblical research.
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GrouchoMarxJr
...And he's about to break Hank Aaron's record...HANK AARON!!!...it breaks my heart to see such a great record being broke by a guy who did it on self enhancing drugs...
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J0nny Ling0
He and his records will always be tainted in my eyes.
And, it isn't a question of whether he is "Mr. Natural" or not, is it? Wasn't it already proven that he has used performance enhancing steroids? I didn't think that was in question anymore...
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George Aar
And for the faithful fans, who just can't seem to accept reality,
Just take a look at the physiques of some of these guys. As Groucho already alluded to, one season they look pretty much like everybody else on the team, then all of a sudden (and at age 30 something!) they put on 30 pounds of muscle and their stats go from "good" to spectacular - all in the space of a few months.
Then take a look at guys like McGwire who've left the game, and VOILA! a few months later and they're just a weeny-looking Joe again. Kinda makes one wonder...
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johniam
Mr. Natural? Naw, Mr. Natural's got a beard.
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Tom Strange
heh heh... jonny said "taint"... heh heh
johnuare, would that be a goatee? ...surrounded by the worst case of acne (still, when he's in his forties)?
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nandon
does it matter?
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GrouchoMarxJr
To some it matters...to some it doesn't matter.
If it doesn't matter to you, feel free to not comment on it...
I started this thread because Mr. Spiritual took exception to my remarks about Barry on another thread...and he's yet to come to the defense of his hero...just goes to show you...
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dmiller
I guess *biblical research* doesn't matter either, eh??
Personally -- I don't follow baseball like some here,
but from what little I know -- it is evident that deception/ and *illegal* use
is being perpetuated here to attain a goal.
Mr. (I use the term loosely) Bonds will do anything to attain a goal.
Docvic did the same, in a different *game*.
Now -- do you want to defend docvic??
Same strokes -- different folks.
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Eagle
Hey Groucho,
It matters. I agree with you. Hank Aaron was natural. NO steroids. Just a consistent home run hitter. Willie Mays was natural, a consistent home run hitter. Roger Maris was natural, no steroids, just had a natural swing and power (and it didn't hurt him batting after Mickey Mantle). And Mickey Mantle and his incredible bulk physique...came from the coal mines as a teenager. No steroids. (He was on pain killers a lot, but that hampered more than helped. Babe Ruth, another natural, no steroids, just a lot of hot dogs and beer.
McGuire, Sosa (steroids and a corked bat), and Bonds. None deserve the Hall of Fame. No matter what records are broken. They deserve the Hall of Shame.
When Bonds "breaks" the record, Hank Aaron in my STRONG opinion, will STILL be the Home Run King.
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Out There
Bonds is definately a 'ROID BOY'. I am around pro-athletes all day long and all agree - It's steroids
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dmiller
Nandon -- yes it does matter.
It's a little thing called INTEGRITY.
That's a word you'd have a hard time looking up the definition of,
in today's Funk and Wagnalls, given the actions of folks (these days).
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GeorgeStGeorge
There is still the option I suggested in the Baseball thread: bean him every time he comes to bat. (Why waste three pitches?) If he's still concious, bean him at first base.
George
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dmiller
ROFL!!! (Yea -- that would work nicely!) ;)
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nandon
I disagree. It doesn't matter. I think steroids, have a place in sports and society. That is only my opinion. Our opinions differ, which is a good thing.
Are you suggesting that I have no integrity or that I don't know what integrity means?
and by 'these days' do you mean to say that in 'other days' people had more integrity? In my view various people from all time periods have had a lack of integrity while others have been full of integrity.
Training methods change over time. They evolve to better the athletes performance.
Did you know that in the 1950's that it was illegal for a MLB player to lift weights? If he was caught, he would be fined? They thought that lifting weights was bad for the players health (it would make the player stiff and muscle bound). Science and practice have found the opposite to be true.
Who has more integrity, a racist society, or one that uses steroids? (just a comparison to the 'other days')
Did you know that Babe Ruth did not play against all the best players of his day? He only played against white players. No blacks, no minorities. Now days players from all across the world are in the MLB. Interesting to think about this. Would you rather go back to a racist society and a segregated MLB or would you rather have to deal with the steroid scandal of today?
not that im going to convince you of anything. you are a smart man who will make a rational decision, but I just thought I'd share a couple reasons why I made that statement, which I should have done in the first place.
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GrouchoMarxJr
nandon...You make some valid points. Although comparing two evils (racism and steroids) does not justify either...
As far as steroid use goes, it against the rules...and that makes it wrong. If they can keep Pete Rose out of the hall of fame for what he did, I think that Barry Bonds should be banned from baseball...
In the Olympics, medals are forfeited...if they find out that they were on steroids...
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Eagle
I'd just throw nothing but breaking pitches and spit balls, no fastballs whatsoever. They did that to Ken Harrelson (the Hawk) after he stupidly announced in an interview with Ken Coleman (Red Sox Announcer) with the Boston Globe sportswriters present that the secret to his success was waiting for a fastball. That was all he swung at.
He was on the verge of taking the American league Triple Crown in 1968 right after Yaz did it, then all the pitchers just stopped giving him fastballs. His homeruns dried up and batting average shot down. He maintained the RBI title barely. Yaz overtook him to get the batting title batting just .301 and Frank Howard, who was just behind Harrelson, surged forth and finished with 44 that year to Harrelson's 35.
Throw the guy crap. Call it the "Roid" ball.
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nyunknown
barry bonds did not need to take steroids if you look at his stats beforehe hit the 73 hrs year. he was a mvp many times before and a hall of famer before. now when he hits 756 will they cheer him like when hank arron hit 715 off of al downing?
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