I'm not in The Way. I never heard of it until recently. I know somebody who is in it (actually, a splinter group, something like CES, I think), and I'm trying to understand it better.
I agree that it is a cult. I am mainstream Christian.
I probably won't post much. I'll mostly just do some reading. :)
Hey there. :) Welcome to GSC. If you have questions about the way (twi), or CES, you have come to the right place. Not all answers will be pleasant, but you will get honest answers from those who have been through the ups and downs and aren't afraid to talk about it.
If you want to understand more about twi and it's offshoots, you've come to the right place.
We may be *rough around the edges*, but at least we have *edges*. :)
Welcome, and I hope you post, as well as peruse. ;)
Let's have a cup of coffee and share hearts; we all hope to get to know you better. Feel free to share your heart and ask questions and most of all enjoy your visits here. We are different in so many ways but are main thread of commonality is the stem from Christianity and our love for one another!
You will find a lot of information here. And you will find a lot of opinions here. That is what is so wonderful about this place.
Probably the most important thing to realize is that everyone experienced their own twi (or offshoot): depending on which years they were involved and how long they stayed, depending on their own mental outlook and emotional vulnerability at the time, depending on how many classes and programs they involved themselves in, depending on their local and regional leadership... some came and went and still speak highly of their experiences and still believe and practice what they were taught. Others of us were badly hurt by our time with twi and now question all beliefs, and still others were used and abused horribly and suffer deeply to this day.
I'm glad you are here to read and learn. And I glad you said, "hello"!
I know nothing about CES but this web site has plenty about it I'm certain. If you need any assistance moving about from forum to forum just ask. There are some good folks here that will do all they can to assist you.
The reason I won't be posting much is because I'm not sure what to ask. The person I know who is into CES is very adamant that they are right about their religion and I am wrong about mine.
Originally I had thought to find some ammo here to fight back with (not literally fight, but to reason with), but I don't think arguing will get anywhere.
I can see so much wrong in the CES/TWI beliefs, but there seems to be no way to reason with these people. They just spout scripture back at you, but it's taken out of context and/or interpreted very strangely. :(
The reason I won't be posting much is because I'm not sure what to ask. The person I know who is into CES is very adamant that they are right about their religion and I am wrong about mine.
Originally I had thought to find some ammo here to fight back with (not literally fight, but to reason with), but I don't think arguing will get anywhere.
I can see so much wrong in the CES/TWI beliefs, but there seems to be no way to reason with these people. They just spout scripture back at you, but it's taken out of context and/or interpreted very strangely. :(
True, true, true and true.
Persuasion usually doesn't work with "innies". You gotta wait till they see it for themselves. Which I assume happens sooner or later for most.
I was involved with TWI and CES for a few years. Unfortunately, one of the trademarks of a cult seem to be the opinion that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I don't think CES started that way, though. The founders of CES wanted to throw out what they learned in TWI and start over from scratch in their beliefs.
Along the way (no pun intended), they came across other groups teaching various doctrines and adopted some of their practices, sometimes to the detriment of others. Momentus and personal prophecy comes to mind, as well as others.
You are correct in realizing that you probably won't get your friend to change their mind. The important thing I would stress to you is, to not let them change your mind about your beliefs. It may be hard to resist the idea they put to you that you are incorrect, but I would rather risk being incorrect than brainwashed. I've come to the conclusion that God is a whole lot bigger than any box man puts Him in.
The important thing I would stress to you is, to not let them change your mind about your beliefs. It may be hard to resist the idea they put to you that you are incorrect, but I would rather risk being incorrect than brainwashed. I've come to the conclusion that God is a whole lot bigger than any box man puts Him in.
No danger of me being swayed from my beliefs. And yes, God is bigger than us. :)
Katy, if your friend is someone you are dating or considering dating, then cut your losses now & hang out with people who don't try to tell you you're wrong all the time.
There is loads and loads of info here at the Cafe that is not in the forum areas.
There is a tutorial for newcomers to help direct them in their quest.
That might be a good place to start to gather info.
With that said, I would like to tell you that at the very HEART of Way(TWI) "philosophy" is the idea that one must "STAND" strong in one's convictions and never even consider for a moment anything that might seem to contradict one's beliefs.
It was even taught in their entry level class(PFAL) that to do so will mark the beginning of one's downfall.
According to Way doctrine, this is how the devil was able to trick Eve.
I hope you can see why that would make the prospect of reasoning with someone who is involved in TWI an exercise in futility unless you were already knowledgeable of the many finer points of their belief system.
Katy, if your friend is someone you are dating or considering dating, then cut your losses now & hang out with people who don't try to tell you you're wrong all the time.
No, not dating. I wouldn't even consider it. This person is a coworker.
I hope you can see why that would make the prospect of reasoning with someone who is involved in TWI an exercise in futility unless you were already knowledgeable of the many finer points of their belief system.
Oh, BTW.
Welcome to The Cafe
Yes, I see that. The more I read about it, the more I see that it is a faulty religion, and the more I see it is futile to try to point out why.
Welcome to the Spot Katy. Do not hesitate to ask just about anyone anything that pops into your head, but do be certain that you really want to know the answer first. I can see that you are already familiarizing yourself with the available reading material and information. Good luck with your coworker.
Originally I had thought to find some ammo here to fight back with (not literally fight, but to reason with), but I don't think arguing will get anywhere.
IMO, the problem with your CES acquaintance probably is not a problem of not seeing the truth. The problem is likely one involving the suppression of the testimony of Scripture and the subordination of scriptural testimony to the unscriptural assumptions that Jesus Christ is a mere man who is not God and who had an approximate 2000-year-ago beginning to his existence. These folks aren’t coming to acknowledge the truth by pulling on their own intellectual and religious bootstraps. It will take a sovereign work of God. (2 Timothy 2:24-26)
I hope you didn't think I was trying to prosyletize or anything -- cause I wasn't.
I know you're not. I'm not trying to do that either. That is not my purpose here. I don't plan to get into any doctrinal arguments. I just mentioned my belief because the subject was mentioned.
Thanks again for your help. :)
quote: He called Himself God.
He did?
Yes, when He called Himself I Am. But I'm not here for religious arguments. I'll try to avoid any appearance of that in the future.
Yes, when He called Himself I Am. But I'm not here for religious arguments. I'll try to avoid any appearance of that in the future.
No desire to argue, just...I thought I'd heard every 'Jesus is God' reasoning. I thought you were referring to John 10 (I and my Father are one), but now I'm guessing you were referring to John 8. Just wanted to be sure where you were coming from.
I can see so much wrong in the CES/TWI beliefs, but there seems to be no way to reason with these people. They just spout scripture back at you, but it's taken out of context and/or interpreted very strangely. :(
There is very little way to reason with them.
1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
It takes the Holy Spirit to open the eyes. Not your wisdom. Not your skills in debate.
1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
It takes the Holy Spirit to open the eyes. Not your wisdom. Not your skills in debate.
Recommended Posts
dmiller
Hey there. :) Welcome to GSC. If you have questions about the way (twi), or CES, you have come to the right place. Not all answers will be pleasant, but you will get honest answers from those who have been through the ups and downs and aren't afraid to talk about it.
If you want to understand more about twi and it's offshoots, you've come to the right place.
We may be *rough around the edges*, but at least we have *edges*. :)
Welcome, and I hope you post, as well as peruse. ;)
David
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RainbowsGirl
Hi Katy,
Welcome to The Grease Spot Café!
Let's have a cup of coffee and share hearts; we all hope to get to know you better. Feel free to share your heart and ask questions and most of all enjoy your visits here. We are different in so many ways but are main thread of commonality is the stem from Christianity and our love for one another!
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TheHighWay
Hi Katy... WELCOME!!!
You will find a lot of information here. And you will find a lot of opinions here. That is what is so wonderful about this place.
Probably the most important thing to realize is that everyone experienced their own twi (or offshoot): depending on which years they were involved and how long they stayed, depending on their own mental outlook and emotional vulnerability at the time, depending on how many classes and programs they involved themselves in, depending on their local and regional leadership... some came and went and still speak highly of their experiences and still believe and practice what they were taught. Others of us were badly hurt by our time with twi and now question all beliefs, and still others were used and abused horribly and suffer deeply to this day.
I'm glad you are here to read and learn. And I glad you said, "hello"!
THW
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ChattyKathy
Welcome Katy,
I know nothing about CES but this web site has plenty about it I'm certain. If you need any assistance moving about from forum to forum just ask. There are some good folks here that will do all they can to assist you.
Kathy
(RG...you have the most awesome graphics girl)
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katy
Thank you for the welcome, everyone.
The reason I won't be posting much is because I'm not sure what to ask. The person I know who is into CES is very adamant that they are right about their religion and I am wrong about mine.
Originally I had thought to find some ammo here to fight back with (not literally fight, but to reason with), but I don't think arguing will get anywhere.
I can see so much wrong in the CES/TWI beliefs, but there seems to be no way to reason with these people. They just spout scripture back at you, but it's taken out of context and/or interpreted very strangely. :(
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Bolshevik
True, true, true and true.
Persuasion usually doesn't work with "innies". You gotta wait till they see it for themselves. Which I assume happens sooner or later for most.
Nice to meet you katy.
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batcave
Katy,
I was involved with TWI and CES for a few years. Unfortunately, one of the trademarks of a cult seem to be the opinion that they are right and everyone else is wrong. I don't think CES started that way, though. The founders of CES wanted to throw out what they learned in TWI and start over from scratch in their beliefs.
Along the way (no pun intended), they came across other groups teaching various doctrines and adopted some of their practices, sometimes to the detriment of others. Momentus and personal prophecy comes to mind, as well as others.
You are correct in realizing that you probably won't get your friend to change their mind. The important thing I would stress to you is, to not let them change your mind about your beliefs. It may be hard to resist the idea they put to you that you are incorrect, but I would rather risk being incorrect than brainwashed. I've come to the conclusion that God is a whole lot bigger than any box man puts Him in.
Welcome!
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katy
No danger of me being swayed from my beliefs. And yes, God is bigger than us. :)
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Free Soul
Katy, if your friend is someone you are dating or considering dating, then cut your losses now & hang out with people who don't try to tell you you're wrong all the time.
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waysider
Katy
There is loads and loads of info here at the Cafe that is not in the forum areas.
There is a tutorial for newcomers to help direct them in their quest.
That might be a good place to start to gather info.
With that said, I would like to tell you that at the very HEART of Way(TWI) "philosophy" is the idea that one must "STAND" strong in one's convictions and never even consider for a moment anything that might seem to contradict one's beliefs.
It was even taught in their entry level class(PFAL) that to do so will mark the beginning of one's downfall.
According to Way doctrine, this is how the devil was able to trick Eve.
I hope you can see why that would make the prospect of reasoning with someone who is involved in TWI an exercise in futility unless you were already knowledgeable of the many finer points of their belief system.
Oh, BTW.
Welcome to The Cafe
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katy
No, not dating. I wouldn't even consider it. This person is a coworker.
Yes, I see that. The more I read about it, the more I see that it is a faulty religion, and the more I see it is futile to try to point out why.
Thank you for your welcome. :)
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Eyesopen
Welcome to the Spot Katy. Do not hesitate to ask just about anyone anything that pops into your head, but do be certain that you really want to know the answer first. I can see that you are already familiarizing yourself with the available reading material and information. Good luck with your coworker.
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Cynic
Katy,
Most of the folks (there are some exceptions) around here seem as bad off theologically as Wayfers, and there are some who seem even more debauched. There’s much more “ammo” to be found at sites such as http://www.aomin.org and http://www.mbrem.com – and in the pieces such as appear at http://aomin.org/trinitydef.html , http://aomin.org/CHALC.html , http://aomin.org/JOHN1_1.html , and http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reforme...Incarnation.htm -- than at this forum.
IMO, the problem with your CES acquaintance probably is not a problem of not seeing the truth. The problem is likely one involving the suppression of the testimony of Scripture and the subordination of scriptural testimony to the unscriptural assumptions that Jesus Christ is a mere man who is not God and who had an approximate 2000-year-ago beginning to his existence. These folks aren’t coming to acknowledge the truth by pulling on their own intellectual and religious bootstraps. It will take a sovereign work of God. (2 Timothy 2:24-26)
Cynic (GS Cafe’s Trinitarian/Calvinist)
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dmiller
CES operates several web-sites. One is social, and two are *informational*.
If you want to know exactly what they teach --- go to:
TRUTH OR TRADITION, and/ or;
BIBLICAL UNITARIAN.
The *social* website (CES now calls itself Spirit and Truth Fellowship) is at:
SPIRIT AND TRUTH FELLOWSHIP.
Hope that helps. :)
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katy
Cynic and dmiller, thank you for the links!
And dmiller, I do believe Jesus is divine. He called Himself God. That's good enough for me.
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johniam
quote: He called Himself God.
He did?
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dmiller
Well --that's great. That's your opinion and you're welcome to it. :)
I'll not try to convince you otherwise, even though I believe differently.
After having been on this site for (uhmmmmmmm) about 4 years now,
I've done some radical changing in my own thinking on a variety of topics,
and the ONE THING I have REALLY learned here is ------
other's opinions/ beliefs are important to those that hold them.
Mine are mine, theirs are theirs. Mine aren't the *best* simply because I happen to hold them.
Other folks hold *equally valid* opinions as well, even though they may differ from mine.
So -- I offered the links I did so that you could see first hand what CES/STF teaches.
I hope you didn't think I was trying to prosyletize or anything -- cause I wasn't.
:)
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katy
Thanks again for your help. :)
Yes, when He called Himself I Am. But I'm not here for religious arguments. I'll try to avoid any appearance of that in the future.
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dmiller
:)
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johniam
quote:
QUOTE(johniam @ Jul 5 2007, 12:00 AM)
quote: He called Himself God.
He did?
Yes, when He called Himself I Am. But I'm not here for religious arguments. I'll try to avoid any appearance of that in the future.
No desire to argue, just...I thought I'd heard every 'Jesus is God' reasoning. I thought you were referring to John 10 (I and my Father are one), but now I'm guessing you were referring to John 8. Just wanted to be sure where you were coming from.
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markomalley
There is very little way to reason with them.
1 Cor 2:14 But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.
It takes the Holy Spirit to open the eyes. Not your wisdom. Not your skills in debate.
So the best thing you can do is to pray for them.
(From the gsc token Catholic)
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Lizzy
Agree
also
love them
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WordWolf
Hello.
In my opinion, the most dangerous things about twi are not the general doctrines
(OSAS vs conditional salvation, the state of the dead), but its general practices
(every aspect of your life must be signed-off-to by leadership, they're the only REAL
Christians.)
If you wanted to get into Doctrinal discussions, we have a whole forum for
doctrine-wrangling.
For everything else, I recommend the GSC tour, so to speak.
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showtopic=7913
Greasespot Cafe 101 is the forum here:
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/ipb/index.php?showforum=12
Enjoy your stay, and don't be afraid to answer questions, preferably questions
phrased politely. We prefer those when we can get them.
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gladtobeout
Welcome Katy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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