From my many hours of watching CSI and Law and Order:
It is illegal for the cops to ask a minor chld ANYTHING without a parent in the same room listening. Those guys were WAY out of line. If they ask your son again, I would strongly suggest you instruct him to reply, "Let's go to my house and you can talk to me with my mom there." Or "Could you please call my mom to come down here and talk to you?"
I'm not sure if it's true that they could get in trouble for knowing and not telling. What if the young thuglets beat the snot out of them for telling? They probably should stay away from that store for a while, especially if the local gendarmes are watching closely.
recently a few kids (13-15 yrs old) broke into a corner store and stole some cigarettes. they got away
the next day my son and his friends went to that store and a police officer started questioning them. he asked where they were the night before, etc. they told him. then he went on to say if they knew who did it, tell them there will be no charges pressed if they come forward and admit it. they'll just have to pay for the broken glass. and then he said if they knew and didn't tell, they could end up in a juvenile facililty themselves (which can't be right)
While I have the GREATEST respect for the police, if he actually said that your son might end up in *juvenile detention/ facility/ whatever* -- he needs to be reported to a supervisor, the chief of police, the mayor, or maybe better yet -- the newspaper (for a story about officers who abuse their authority.)
i just don't like this threatening stuff and trying to back a kid into a corner if he hasn't been involved in anything
you know ?
now if he did something wrong, that's another story. he would be way more scared of me than a cop !!!!!!!
there's nothing in federal law, necessarily, covering the conduct of police officers lying to trick perps and potential witnesses/informants into divulging what information they might have.
The ONLY federal law that would have anything to do with this would be related to Civil Rights.
However, state laws vary. What's true in NY or NJ might be different in ME or CA.
In practice, cops are notorious liars... the end justifies the means, ya know!
If I were you Excie, I'd check with lawyer or the local bar association where you live to find out what you can or can't expect from cops in a situation like this.
Unless he was actually there, he doesn't really "know" the facts, he only "knows" what he has heard.
There is no law that says you can't hear a rumor.
Likewise, there is no law that says you must repeat it.( unless you are under oath)
Boys that age are notorious for trying to take credit for such activity whether they did it or not so what he has heard may well be just "posturing". The real culprit in such an instance is more than happy to fall back into the shadows of the unnoticed.(unless his motive was attention )
Giving up your buds can have some serious repercussions.
Not worth risking based solely on rumor and posturing.
I had this----ummm---- "friend" who found himself in a similar situation once.
He held his ground even as the bright lights shone in his face and he had to pee so bad his tonsils were singing "Anchors Aweigh". To this day, both his legs work just fine.(ie; never been broken)
Now, if he is privy to some actual, provable facts regarding the scenario, it's a whole different ball game.
As I understand it from watching a few shows meant to educate people as to their rights and my own experiences:
A police officer can stop anyone and ask any question he likes.
Anyone has the right to refuse to talk to the police
A police officer can ask a minor questions without their parents present as long as they have not put the child under arrest, or otherwise detained them
The Supreme Court has consistantly ruled over the years that police officers are allowed to lie and otherwise mislead witnesses and suspects and persons of interest in order to obtain material information and/or confessions.
Children need to understand exactly what they should do when confronted by police.
If they know nothing about the situation they need to say so.
If they have information about the situation, were involved in the situation, or the police do not believe that they know nothing: they first and foremost need to RESPECTFULLY say "I won't talk to you without my mom or dad present"
No yelling, swearing, name calling, threatening moves, they just are to keep repeating the above while always maintaining a respectful tone of voice and demeanor. This makes it difficult if not impossible for the police to arrest them on an unrelated charge such as assaulting a police officer, disturbing the peace etc.
No matter what the police threaten they need to keep asking for their parents and volunteer and/or admit nothing.
Impress upon your children that no matter how long it takes or what pressure (ie threats) are made you, their parents, and --if necessary-- an attorney will come get them. They need to be firm in requesting that you be called and wait until you get there. No matter what the police threaten they can do no real damage except scare the daylights out of them if they let themselves be scared. Again no smart *ss attitude etc. Just a Polite repetition of "I will talk only when my parents are here. TO EACH AND EVERY QUESTION. No matter how innocuous the question appears.
Once you are there ascertain what it is that the police are claiming to be the situation, ask your child "do you know any thing about this" if the answer is "No" demand that your child be turned over to you immediately.
If the answer is "Yes" or if the police decide to file charges even though your child has said "NO". DO NOT ask your child any questions inside the station where cameras and audio equipment may be recording. Instead instruct your child not to speak until you return with an attorney.
From my many hours of watching CSI and Law and Order:
It is illegal for the cops to ask a minor chld ANYTHING without a parent in the same room listening.
hmm CSI and LaO are not definitive legal opinion. Ask Law and various other sites disagree with most the posters here regarding the legality. A google search found no Federal Law cited that prohibits such action. Perhaps your state is different from most, but here in CO, police can question a minor without parents present, and they often do. Had 9it been a case of assault on a person, do you think the police should wait for parents to come before asking a kid on the corner? Plice questioning happens in schools all the time also. In the case you described, the police were simply gathering information, not trying to pin the crime on your sopn as a suspect. Had that been the case, he would have been read his Miranda and allowed to have a lawyer as well as a parent.
IMO, (and JUST my opinion) the information your son had would not be admissable in court (as hearsay), but could have been useful to the police to follow up on who did do it. While the threat was a little over the top, if your son DID know who did it (saw it), I would think he could be charged with withholding evidence. since all he knew was what he had hearsay, no charges could be filed, or at least not tried.
Meanwhile, some insurance company is out some money, and a storeowner is out his deductible for repairs to the window which was broken by some cowardly juveniles. Why cover for them? Sad that we would allow crimes to happen because we fear being the rat.
Of course agreeing that the cops were wrong. If not legally, certainly ethically.
Police officers are a different breed by and large from when we were kids.
When Fred's ham-radio friend retired from the Roseville CA police force, the high school marched to the police station to request he not retire so soon. Bob Metke was a friend to many.
20 some odd years later, circa 1995, I lost my job, got kicked out of twi, kids had movedn away from home -- it was not a high point of my life -- But I thought I could still go drive around the high school and pray for the kids.
A really rude policeman gave me a speeding ticket and treated me like a criminal -- in front of all those kids. made my day.
The cop was wrong, and I wanted to fight it -- and also tell that policeman how important it was to those kids to treat them with dignity and kindess so they would want to be law abiding. . .
Cop didn't show up for court. Ticket was discarded, but I was so sorry I didn't get a chance to talk to the police officer.
And of course you know about "Reno 911." Not so far from the truth.
Policeman just aren't genrally the same as they used to be.
Too bad.
Of course, there are some who are, because being a policeman is a noble profession for someoen who wants to help make the world a nicer place.
Excathedra your kids are so blessed (if Ican use that word here) to have you on their side.
rocky, what about minors, as far as federal law goes ?
i can check into it, but my point was i feel i should have a right to be there, you know ?
--
ps. he wasn't in custody or anything. i'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill
but it's my boy and the police scared him
Excie, I understand your concern. But WE here at GSC probably do not know what the law is where you are.
My point is that as unfair and unreasonable as it feels, and it always does in a situation like that, in general, cops are allowed to lie.
But to know what your rights and your son's rights are, you should ask someone with knowledge of your state/local laws (but not the cops themselves, because they will probably lie to you... and I'm NOT being sarcastic in saying that).
btw, last fall, I got stopped in the 'burb where I live, because my tail light was broken. The cop thought he had a right to harass me.
He didn't.
He refused to allow me to get out of my car to show him what the deal was. The fact was, he claimed that the light, which was supposed to shine in red, was missing the cover, it WOULD BE, when lit, white. He was wrong.
White represents a car coming toward you, if you see it in front of you. So, it would confuse and possibly cause a collision.
The only problem... the one that was supposed to shine red DID so. Only the parking (or back up light) shined white.
He didn't give me a ticket. I challenged both the rookie that was practicing on me and his veteran police officer partner who told him to practice on me.
I followed up by calling the mayor/city council/city manager offices to register my concern.
Even though the Phoenix area is geographically quite large, Scottsdale isn't.
I've been followed by these bozos since then but nobody dares stop me. Of course, if I were to commit a ticketable offense, I would expect to get stopped. But I'm nobody's practice...
:)
My point is... even though cops do things, they aren't always right in doing so... and they CAN be challenged and put in their places. But it helps to understand what they can and cannot rightfully/lawfully do.
If they have information about the situation, were involved in the situation, or the police do not believe that they know nothing: they first and foremost need to RESPECTFULLY say *** "I won't talk to you without my mom or dad present"
In my neighborhood when our children were that age, if one of my children said that to a policeman they(my kids) would be doomed! The policeman would feel that the kids were being defiant. I like that idea TL, but I would have my kids add "my mother (or father) told me....." This would take the defiance aspect out of the picture and let the policeman know the kids were obeying their parents.
Of course, every neighborhood is different, but the policemen in my area were not good examples of being fair to teenagers and young people. One in particular stopped a brand new driver under an overpass and had him gun his engine....and then gave the young man a ticket for a faulty exhaust system.
Cops lie all the time...It's one way of cutting corners to get people who 'know something' about the crime to fess up...I don't think it's a wrong thing to do in many cases...I came upon a wreck once where a guy and a girl stole a pickup truck,hit a car and then fled the scene...They caught the girl,but the guy got away....The cop told me "we'll get him"...I asked him how....He said "we'll just tell the girl that the other driver got killed or badly hurt and unless she wants to take the fall for her boyfriend, she'll fess up"...
They're not going to send the finest CSI team to investigate a break-in where some kids stole cigarettes...If they can tell a few lies,get someone to get nervous and rat out the perpertrator,then the evidence will convict the criminal who will end up paying restitution,instead of the victims and their insurance eating the losses in a crime...
Cops do seem to enjoy badgering teenagers...I guess they feel it's their way of nipping a sprouting criminal in the bud...But I'm not too crazy about them hassling kids just because they happen to be kids...
Bad guys have no rules and law enforcement continually has more and more rules added to the way they operate. I was married to a police officer for almost eight years and seeing the things they have to deal with, I tend to give the officer the benefit of the doubt.
That being said, I asked a police officer who's got quite a few credentials under his belt about this situation and here's what he had to say:
Ok, here's my opinion, which is not endorsed by my agency and is provided outside my scope of professional office. Now, with my disclaimer out of the way, I'll share this:
There is absolutely nothing written in any law that says police cannot question minors outside the presence of their parents/guardians. While the cases that arise out of juvenile crimes are sometimes precedents for the future protocols of the way police function, what is most important is to use common sense when dealing with kids. Sadly, there are some times where overzealous police do things which call their judgment into question and while they make some people say, "Huh?" it does not mean there was malice or ill-will involved.
Truthfully, I would like a kid's parents to be present an interview but it is not always practical. These kids being 13 and 15 certainly fit into a category different from an 8 year old, all things being equal, of course. The appellate courts have ruled time and time again that as long as a juvenile can completely understand their rights according to Miranda they can actually make a competent waiver of those rights and be subject to questioning by police, or invoke them and consult counsel.
Most of the time, police encounter issues when they just do things they really don't need to do to help figure out a case. Many times, this involves making threats of jail or trouble to entice someone to talk. I would only advise doing this when you can back up your "threats" with some factual basis. Telling someone you're going to throw them in jail if they don't tell you who did it, etc. should be backed up with a factual basis for the statement (i.e. Do you have probable cause to their involvement? Were they an accessory or principle to the crime? Are they aiding a felon and are not permitted protection under the law as a spouse, etc?).
The bottom line is don't run your mouth without cause. This is unfortunately a trait of many young officers who just want to go out and try to do something good but they haven't had the "polish" many years on the job will get you. Also, more basic case law for you: It's illegal to fabricate evidence but not to lie to someone about having it. In other words, I can tell you I found your fingerprint on a window to see if I can get you to bite the hook but I cannot throw down a nondescript fingerprint card on the table and tell you it's your print if it isn't.
I live in a small town, next to a large city that has a very high crime rate.
my son and daughters have been questioned by the police about crimes.
they have big mouths but i was often concerned of how much right and wrong it was. I told my kids that to ask the cops to allow a parent to be present... and yes the cops do and ( I think should ) use intimidation.
why? we do not live in a beaver cleaver world of bad guys and teens and young children do commint serious crimes including running drugs for money and being a look out. Parents of these kids are involved in major crime waves of the city and cops know who is trouble for the most part.
if my son was ever arrested at that point I say the first thing out of your mouth is I want a lawyer and my parents the parents part is not a garuntee the cops must stop or will shut up but the attorny is BY LAW a right for every person.
they have had their rights read to them.. and in them it states they have a right to an attorny present during any questioning, not a right to parents under questioning and the cops can ONLY hold you if you are under arrest , they can not question you even if they have a search warrant.
i know my daughter has told the local cops to shut the buck up and get out of her face and they do not HAVE to shut up it is just a conversation she can walk away and they can not hold anyone unless they are under arrest.
so I would tell my kid to ask if he was under arrest, if not walk away and tell the cop you do not need to speak to them they are at the service of the american citizen not the other way around.
that being said I will speak of a crime that happened this past year in the city i live next door to a three year old baby was shot in the head during a conversation between his father and a person in a car. this was at a public pool area where 100 of people witnessed the shooting.
no one saw or heard a thing.
cops im sorry are not exactly the honor role of citizens and do what they must, even if it means whatever it takes.
they deal with the scum of society on a daily bases and know how to trick the cons and manipulate anything they feel they may need to , for the good of the community, maybe. I believe cops are or can be corrupt as well it is the nature of the beast.
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rhino
I'll throw my two cents in ... then more experienced can answer :)
It seems it is right for them to tell who did it. But for the cop to threaten to charge them with a crime with no adult or lawyer present seems wrong.
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Watered Garden
From my many hours of watching CSI and Law and Order:
It is illegal for the cops to ask a minor chld ANYTHING without a parent in the same room listening. Those guys were WAY out of line. If they ask your son again, I would strongly suggest you instruct him to reply, "Let's go to my house and you can talk to me with my mom there." Or "Could you please call my mom to come down here and talk to you?"
I'm not sure if it's true that they could get in trouble for knowing and not telling. What if the young thuglets beat the snot out of them for telling? They probably should stay away from that store for a while, especially if the local gendarmes are watching closely.
WG
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excathedra
thanks, rhino, that's kinda' what i was thinking (the second part)
as far as the first part, that's a tough one....
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year2027
God first
Beloved excathedra
God loves you my dear friend
if they were eye wittnesses it be one thing but I am sure they got it second hand which should be of no value to the case
tell your kids not to talk to strangers and tell them that police officers can be strangers
I believe its wrong for the officer to lie but they do it
now there are some good officer but any one that lies is not
if they are questioning kids they are looking for a way to close the case without work so be careful
the store owner points them to kids he does not trust stop going there
while its illegal to question a child without the parent it not illegal to interview in the store, school until the child asked for the parent
so yes they can talk until they take them in for questioning
you might have a laywer call the poice telling them not to question your child without you or the laywer
some times a laywer will call or write a note for very little money
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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dmiller
While I have the GREATEST respect for the police, if he actually said that your son might end up in *juvenile detention/ facility/ whatever* -- he needs to be reported to a supervisor, the chief of police, the mayor, or maybe better yet -- the newspaper (for a story about officers who abuse their authority.)
Just my imo, as always. But if that was my kid --
I'd be doing EXACTLY what I just mentioned.
Questions by the police should be respected.
Threats should not be.
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Shellon
This article is pretty good for this information
http://www.kidsincourt.com/Miranda.htm
It's long and addresses several specific states, but the first 4-5 paragraphs are good information for general.
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excathedra
thank you so much for your input
unfortunately, once in a while some police officers threaten and intimidate, honestly
my kid really was there (later, daytime, after) to buy something at the store when he got questioned
and the night the cigarettes were stolen, he was at a late district baseball game and then home
he was not an eyewitness to any of it since he wasn't there
thank you again
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excathedra
oh and as far as taking it to supervisors and/or newspapers, you don't know this town
i think i'll tell him that next time he should just say "my mom said i should call her if......" or something like that
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Shellon
Perfect! If he says 'my mom says......' then the officer knows he's spoken to you about the prior behavior and will be less likely to hassle the boy.
Sad isn't it, that they think they can get away with this stuff?
The man hasn't ever taken on a mama? Hoooboy
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excathedra
:) shell
i just don't like this threatening stuff and trying to back a kid into a corner if he hasn't been involved in anything
you know ?
now if he did something wrong, that's another story. he would be way more scared of me than a cop !!!!!!!
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Rocky
there's nothing in federal law, necessarily, covering the conduct of police officers lying to trick perps and potential witnesses/informants into divulging what information they might have.
The ONLY federal law that would have anything to do with this would be related to Civil Rights.
However, state laws vary. What's true in NY or NJ might be different in ME or CA.
In practice, cops are notorious liars... the end justifies the means, ya know!
If I were you Excie, I'd check with lawyer or the local bar association where you live to find out what you can or can't expect from cops in a situation like this.
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excathedra
rocky, what about minors, as far as federal law goes ?
i can check into it, but my point was i feel i should have a right to be there, you know ?
--
ps. he wasn't in custody or anything. i'm not trying to make a mountain out of a molehill
but it's my boy and the police scared him
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waysider
Unless he was actually there, he doesn't really "know" the facts, he only "knows" what he has heard.
There is no law that says you can't hear a rumor.
Likewise, there is no law that says you must repeat it.( unless you are under oath)
Boys that age are notorious for trying to take credit for such activity whether they did it or not so what he has heard may well be just "posturing". The real culprit in such an instance is more than happy to fall back into the shadows of the unnoticed.(unless his motive was attention )
Giving up your buds can have some serious repercussions.
Not worth risking based solely on rumor and posturing.
I had this----ummm---- "friend" who found himself in a similar situation once.
He held his ground even as the bright lights shone in his face and he had to pee so bad his tonsils were singing "Anchors Aweigh". To this day, both his legs work just fine.(ie; never been broken)
Now, if he is privy to some actual, provable facts regarding the scenario, it's a whole different ball game.
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templelady
As I understand it from watching a few shows meant to educate people as to their rights and my own experiences:
A police officer can stop anyone and ask any question he likes.
Anyone has the right to refuse to talk to the police
A police officer can ask a minor questions without their parents present as long as they have not put the child under arrest, or otherwise detained them
The Supreme Court has consistantly ruled over the years that police officers are allowed to lie and otherwise mislead witnesses and suspects and persons of interest in order to obtain material information and/or confessions.
Children need to understand exactly what they should do when confronted by police.
If they know nothing about the situation they need to say so.
If they have information about the situation, were involved in the situation, or the police do not believe that they know nothing: they first and foremost need to RESPECTFULLY say "I won't talk to you without my mom or dad present"
No yelling, swearing, name calling, threatening moves, they just are to keep repeating the above while always maintaining a respectful tone of voice and demeanor. This makes it difficult if not impossible for the police to arrest them on an unrelated charge such as assaulting a police officer, disturbing the peace etc.
No matter what the police threaten they need to keep asking for their parents and volunteer and/or admit nothing.
Impress upon your children that no matter how long it takes or what pressure (ie threats) are made you, their parents, and --if necessary-- an attorney will come get them. They need to be firm in requesting that you be called and wait until you get there. No matter what the police threaten they can do no real damage except scare the daylights out of them if they let themselves be scared. Again no smart *ss attitude etc. Just a Polite repetition of "I will talk only when my parents are here. TO EACH AND EVERY QUESTION. No matter how innocuous the question appears.
Once you are there ascertain what it is that the police are claiming to be the situation, ask your child "do you know any thing about this" if the answer is "No" demand that your child be turned over to you immediately.
If the answer is "Yes" or if the police decide to file charges even though your child has said "NO". DO NOT ask your child any questions inside the station where cameras and audio equipment may be recording. Instead instruct your child not to speak until you return with an attorney.
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HAPe4me
hmm CSI and LaO are not definitive legal opinion. Ask Law and various other sites disagree with most the posters here regarding the legality. A google search found no Federal Law cited that prohibits such action. Perhaps your state is different from most, but here in CO, police can question a minor without parents present, and they often do. Had 9it been a case of assault on a person, do you think the police should wait for parents to come before asking a kid on the corner? Plice questioning happens in schools all the time also. In the case you described, the police were simply gathering information, not trying to pin the crime on your sopn as a suspect. Had that been the case, he would have been read his Miranda and allowed to have a lawyer as well as a parent.
IMO, (and JUST my opinion) the information your son had would not be admissable in court (as hearsay), but could have been useful to the police to follow up on who did do it. While the threat was a little over the top, if your son DID know who did it (saw it), I would think he could be charged with withholding evidence. since all he knew was what he had hearsay, no charges could be filed, or at least not tried.
Meanwhile, some insurance company is out some money, and a storeowner is out his deductible for repairs to the window which was broken by some cowardly juveniles. Why cover for them? Sad that we would allow crimes to happen because we fear being the rat.
~HAP
Edited to link this New Hampshire Law site: http://www.nhbar.org/for-the-public/juvenile-law.asp
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Kit Sober
. . . adding my two cents, too.
Of course agreeing that the cops were wrong. If not legally, certainly ethically.
Police officers are a different breed by and large from when we were kids.
When Fred's ham-radio friend retired from the Roseville CA police force, the high school marched to the police station to request he not retire so soon. Bob Metke was a friend to many.
20 some odd years later, circa 1995, I lost my job, got kicked out of twi, kids had movedn away from home -- it was not a high point of my life -- But I thought I could still go drive around the high school and pray for the kids.
A really rude policeman gave me a speeding ticket and treated me like a criminal -- in front of all those kids. made my day.
The cop was wrong, and I wanted to fight it -- and also tell that policeman how important it was to those kids to treat them with dignity and kindess so they would want to be law abiding. . .
Cop didn't show up for court. Ticket was discarded, but I was so sorry I didn't get a chance to talk to the police officer.
And of course you know about "Reno 911." Not so far from the truth.
Policeman just aren't genrally the same as they used to be.
Too bad.
Of course, there are some who are, because being a policeman is a noble profession for someoen who wants to help make the world a nicer place.
Excathedra your kids are so blessed (if Ican use that word here) to have you on their side.
in hope,
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Rocky
Excie, I understand your concern. But WE here at GSC probably do not know what the law is where you are.
My point is that as unfair and unreasonable as it feels, and it always does in a situation like that, in general, cops are allowed to lie.
But to know what your rights and your son's rights are, you should ask someone with knowledge of your state/local laws (but not the cops themselves, because they will probably lie to you... and I'm NOT being sarcastic in saying that).
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Rocky
btw, last fall, I got stopped in the 'burb where I live, because my tail light was broken. The cop thought he had a right to harass me.
He didn't.
He refused to allow me to get out of my car to show him what the deal was. The fact was, he claimed that the light, which was supposed to shine in red, was missing the cover, it WOULD BE, when lit, white. He was wrong.
White represents a car coming toward you, if you see it in front of you. So, it would confuse and possibly cause a collision.
The only problem... the one that was supposed to shine red DID so. Only the parking (or back up light) shined white.
He didn't give me a ticket. I challenged both the rookie that was practicing on me and his veteran police officer partner who told him to practice on me.
I followed up by calling the mayor/city council/city manager offices to register my concern.
Even though the Phoenix area is geographically quite large, Scottsdale isn't.
I've been followed by these bozos since then but nobody dares stop me. Of course, if I were to commit a ticketable offense, I would expect to get stopped. But I'm nobody's practice...
:)
My point is... even though cops do things, they aren't always right in doing so... and they CAN be challenged and put in their places. But it helps to understand what they can and cannot rightfully/lawfully do.
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krys
In my neighborhood when our children were that age, if one of my children said that to a policeman they(my kids) would be doomed! The policeman would feel that the kids were being defiant. I like that idea TL, but I would have my kids add "my mother (or father) told me....." This would take the defiance aspect out of the picture and let the policeman know the kids were obeying their parents.
Of course, every neighborhood is different, but the policemen in my area were not good examples of being fair to teenagers and young people. One in particular stopped a brand new driver under an overpass and had him gun his engine....and then gave the young man a ticket for a faulty exhaust system.
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simonzelotes
Cops lie all the time...It's one way of cutting corners to get people who 'know something' about the crime to fess up...I don't think it's a wrong thing to do in many cases...I came upon a wreck once where a guy and a girl stole a pickup truck,hit a car and then fled the scene...They caught the girl,but the guy got away....The cop told me "we'll get him"...I asked him how....He said "we'll just tell the girl that the other driver got killed or badly hurt and unless she wants to take the fall for her boyfriend, she'll fess up"...
They're not going to send the finest CSI team to investigate a break-in where some kids stole cigarettes...If they can tell a few lies,get someone to get nervous and rat out the perpertrator,then the evidence will convict the criminal who will end up paying restitution,instead of the victims and their insurance eating the losses in a crime...
Cops do seem to enjoy badgering teenagers...I guess they feel it's their way of nipping a sprouting criminal in the bud...But I'm not too crazy about them hassling kids just because they happen to be kids...
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Belle
Bad guys have no rules and law enforcement continually has more and more rules added to the way they operate. I was married to a police officer for almost eight years and seeing the things they have to deal with, I tend to give the officer the benefit of the doubt.
That being said, I asked a police officer who's got quite a few credentials under his belt about this situation and here's what he had to say:
Ok, here's my opinion, which is not endorsed by my agency and is provided outside my scope of professional office. Now, with my disclaimer out of the way, I'll share this:
There is absolutely nothing written in any law that says police cannot question minors outside the presence of their parents/guardians. While the cases that arise out of juvenile crimes are sometimes precedents for the future protocols of the way police function, what is most important is to use common sense when dealing with kids. Sadly, there are some times where overzealous police do things which call their judgment into question and while they make some people say, "Huh?" it does not mean there was malice or ill-will involved.
Truthfully, I would like a kid's parents to be present an interview but it is not always practical. These kids being 13 and 15 certainly fit into a category different from an 8 year old, all things being equal, of course. The appellate courts have ruled time and time again that as long as a juvenile can completely understand their rights according to Miranda they can actually make a competent waiver of those rights and be subject to questioning by police, or invoke them and consult counsel.
Most of the time, police encounter issues when they just do things they really don't need to do to help figure out a case. Many times, this involves making threats of jail or trouble to entice someone to talk. I would only advise doing this when you can back up your "threats" with some factual basis. Telling someone you're going to throw them in jail if they don't tell you who did it, etc. should be backed up with a factual basis for the statement (i.e. Do you have probable cause to their involvement? Were they an accessory or principle to the crime? Are they aiding a felon and are not permitted protection under the law as a spouse, etc?).
The bottom line is don't run your mouth without cause. This is unfortunately a trait of many young officers who just want to go out and try to do something good but they haven't had the "polish" many years on the job will get you. Also, more basic case law for you: It's illegal to fabricate evidence but not to lie to someone about having it. In other words, I can tell you I found your fingerprint on a window to see if I can get you to bite the hook but I cannot throw down a nondescript fingerprint card on the table and tell you it's your print if it isn't.
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pond
Excie i hear you.
I live in a small town, next to a large city that has a very high crime rate.
my son and daughters have been questioned by the police about crimes.
they have big mouths but i was often concerned of how much right and wrong it was. I told my kids that to ask the cops to allow a parent to be present... and yes the cops do and ( I think should ) use intimidation.
why? we do not live in a beaver cleaver world of bad guys and teens and young children do commint serious crimes including running drugs for money and being a look out. Parents of these kids are involved in major crime waves of the city and cops know who is trouble for the most part.
if my son was ever arrested at that point I say the first thing out of your mouth is I want a lawyer and my parents the parents part is not a garuntee the cops must stop or will shut up but the attorny is BY LAW a right for every person.
they have had their rights read to them.. and in them it states they have a right to an attorny present during any questioning, not a right to parents under questioning and the cops can ONLY hold you if you are under arrest , they can not question you even if they have a search warrant.
i know my daughter has told the local cops to shut the buck up and get out of her face and they do not HAVE to shut up it is just a conversation she can walk away and they can not hold anyone unless they are under arrest.
so I would tell my kid to ask if he was under arrest, if not walk away and tell the cop you do not need to speak to them they are at the service of the american citizen not the other way around.
that being said I will speak of a crime that happened this past year in the city i live next door to a three year old baby was shot in the head during a conversation between his father and a person in a car. this was at a public pool area where 100 of people witnessed the shooting.
no one saw or heard a thing.
cops im sorry are not exactly the honor role of citizens and do what they must, even if it means whatever it takes.
they deal with the scum of society on a daily bases and know how to trick the cons and manipulate anything they feel they may need to , for the good of the community, maybe. I believe cops are or can be corrupt as well it is the nature of the beast.
but without them what is the choice?
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