I once had a woman ask me to put my finger in her belly button...suddenly she shouted "Hey, that's not my belly button"...and I said "well, that's not my finger"
sorry...couldn't resist.
...but yes, I know what you mean. I have had numerous experiences where people would rationilize their desires of the flesh by talking about their "freedom in Christ"....
When I was in a WOW Vet home in Chicago in 1981-82, I was concerned because in our home, an unmarried couple (who later married) were going to her room and having sex right after Twig with her then-11-year-old child right there. I spoke to the Branch leader's wife, Y*e**e (9th Corps) and she railed and railed and railed upon me about "how dare you think there's anything wrong with that?" with me sobbing ... until her husband, D*v*s came home from work and made her stop.
That was my starkest introduction to a person who thought that people's "freedom in Christ" allowed them to have premarital sex within 20 feet of the room a Bible fellowship had just finished in less than 20 minutes before. Y*e**e also told me I "had no right" to expect her to know the answer to the question of whether it was all right for people that were not married to one another to sleep together just because she was in the Corps.
Fortunately, our Area Leader K**s K*le (7th Corps) told me (in a later conversation) that I had EVERY right to expect her to know it was not right for them to do that. Sadly, the morals and certainty he possessed were hard to find in other Way ministry places. Thank you, K**s, wherever you are.
I would agree that the concept was MAINLY isolated to people at the top of the organization.. like "they" say, the cops have the best dope in the world..
I dunno.. I think this kind of teaching.. the spirit is holy, the flesh is merely flesh.. kinda made people schizophrenic. Like you have two personalities, a good guy, a bad guy..
I remember merely asking a few questions of someone in the 1970's about having morals of a Guinea Pig.. not really being accusative.. the easy going party guy went away, and I was talking to the "spirit guy", "DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH MY RIGHTEOUSNESS!!"
I was waiting for his head to start spinning around..
I think it's like.. there's two of them in there, and they have come to some kind of agreement..
"you don't touch my women, beer or dope, and I'll be nice, and let you look important when you teach in fellowship.."
Who knows.. maybe these people were screwed up to begin with..
Boy that brought back a memory I had forgotten. I had a real good friend who was living a way home. He got home from work one night and there was an engaged couple going at it in the middle of the living room floor. He made the mistake of saying something, and got his room torn up the next day while at work.
I would agree that the concept was MAINLY isolated to people at the top of the organization.. like "they" say, the cops have the best dope in the world..
I dunno.. I think this kind of teaching.. the spirit is holy, the flesh is merely flesh.. kinda made people schizophrenic. Like you have two personalities, a good guy, a bad guy..
I remember merely asking a few questions of someone in the 1970's about having morals of a Guinea Pig.. not really being accusative.. the easy going party guy went away, and I was talking to the "spirit guy", "DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH MY RIGHTEOUSNESS!!"
I was waiting for his head to start spinning around..
I think it's like.. there's two of them in there, and they have come to some kind of agreement..
"you don't touch my women, beer or dope, and I'll be nice, and let you look important when you teach in fellowship.."
Who knows.. maybe these people were screwed up to begin with..
Hahaha...wow that did bring back some memories! My WOW sister had an affair on the field and our Limb C. allowed it. She even got engaged on the field. But it was ok because she was "going through some things" and needed to "let loose" and "unwind". So it was ok for her to ignore her committment, the family and everything else so she could spend time with her boyfriend (who was by TWI standards an unbeliever)
I don't believe the concept stayed only at the "top" of the food chain...
I have talked to lots of average, non-WOW, non-Corps believers who lived through situations where either they, or the people around them, freely bed-hopped, claiming their righteousness in Christ as the supporting Biblical rationale.
It may have started at the top, but like all other twi doctrines, it spread across the field in no time.
"... morals of a Guinea Pig... " mrph, snort, hrmph... LOL... good one, Ham!!
TWI was already become extremely legalistic when I got involved so I missed the "freedom" that most folks experienced at the lower levels.
In fact, I had been going to a fellowship about 30 minutes from my house when I learned that there were several that were closer. The girl who I had been going with agreed to go with me to a few of the closer fellowships. We were trying to find out when they met and were promptly told that we could go to each of them once, but that I needed to find a fellowship and stick with that one. Fellowship hopping was not permitted.
The only "real" "freedom" I was exposed to was when I started dating the guy I married. We were told by not a few folks that we needed to "test drive the car" before committing our lives to each other. It was even one of the questions Moneyhands asked us when we started marriage counseling with him.
I feel terrible about the hypocrisy of my actions now because my room mate was getting all hot and bothered one night with a non-TWIt who was in town to visit her. It was outrageous in our eyes and my ex and I broke the whole thing up and the poor guy ended up leaving right away - embarrassed and probably pretty peeved. I'm sure he wondered what the heck happened to the fun loving girl he had known and why the heck she was letting a couple of goons dictate what she did in her personal life.
Legalism.. hmm. Seems the legalistic sycophants at the top found it rather difficult to jump through their own hoops. If there are any bad feelings about this, I think it is that the immoral sob's still insisted upon sticking their noses in everybody elses business.
WOW pardon me! Excuse me are you telling us that in one of the 10 commandment thou shall not commit adultery? .Did I miss something? The way corp doe'nt teach that? I wonder why? Oh I get it L.C Martindale. They want to honor him by doing the same thing. But was he not forced to resign in disgrace? So these couples do the same thing are they not in disgrace too? They should should re-name the TWI into TSI The sex international international? The would not obey the word of God but It would be more fun!
My cousin left TWI because of this kind of garbage he saw. He experienced his WOW Fam Coord, a hot WC female, taking "naps" with the married LC. He confronted her about it, but it seemed she had been taking naps with many of leadership in TWItville.
After LCM's Believer's Family Class, the wife of our BC was shouting from the roof tops that the people in the fellowships should just go get laid to relax a little. Her answser to everything was to get laid. I saw a lot of people's hearts get hurt over this kind of thing. It obviously isn't meant to be.
WOW pardon me! Excuse me are you telling us that in one of the 10 commandment thou shall not commit adultery? .Did I miss something? The way corp doe'nt teach that? I wonder why? Oh I get it L.C Martindale. They want to honor him by doing the same thing. But was he not forced to resign in disgrace? So these couples do the same thing are they not in disgrace too? They should should re-name the TWI into TSI The sex international international? The would not obey the word of God but It would be more fun!
Well, you see, NY, you've stumbled on something that is at the core of what is taught in TWI.
That is, that the 10 commandments were not written to the church as we know it today, hence the concept of "Freedom in the Word".
I think it's what normal people call a LOOPHOLE!
So, to answer your question, yes, the subject of adultery is taught, but it is not assigned the same meaning that most people give it.
In fact, it has been taught in TWI (don't know if it still is) that adultery refers to "spiritual" adultery and that the physical concept is for the understanding of those not "spiritually mature" enough to grasp it's true meaning.
Again, sounds suspiciously like rationalization at best and downright twisting of the scriptures to suit ones own agenda.
So, to answer your question, yes, the subject of adultery is taught, but it is not assigned the same meaning that most people give it. In fact, it has been taught in TWI (don't know if it still is) that adultery refers to "spiritual" adultery and that the physical concept is for the understanding of those not "spiritually mature" enough to grasp it's true meaning. Again, sounds suspiciously like rationalization at best and downright twisting of the scriptures to suit ones own agenda. I hope that wasn't too confusing.
Actually, that's an excellent summation of the whole subject, in my opinion.
When I got pregnant on the wow field, I assumed of course that I had blown it past all possibility of redemption.... that I had to leave and did so. I was sought out and taken to the lc`s. I was told in no uncertain terms... that the *sin* wasn`t in HAVING sex ...only if I allowed the pregnancy to interfere with the commitment/promise/vow that I had made to God.
I was stunned that sex was not viewed as taboo...that it wasn`t any big deal at all...it only became a big deal if I didn`t deal with my *little problem*
When I got pregnant on the wow field, I assumed of course that I had blown it past all possibility of redemption.... that I had to leave and did so. I was sought out and taken to the lc`s. I was told in no uncertain terms... that the *sin* wasn`t in HAVING sex ...only if I allowed the pregnancy to interfere with the commitment/promise/vow that I had made to God.
I was stunned that sex was not viewed as taboo...that it wasn`t any big deal at all...it only became a big deal if I didn`t deal with my *little problem*
I truly hated the attitude that TWI took towards sex and pregnancy. Like most cults they used sex as a coersion tool. It was just another way to control the masses. And a way to boost membership. I mean who wouldnt mind a little "legalism" if they could have sex with whomever they wanted? And if you get the girl pregnant...no worries the "Church" will make them get an abortion. <_< And if you happen to be the female that wants "certain things" then you too can be a whore for Jesus. But don't worry nobody will call you that to your face. But you may be called upon to take a few naps with various people.
If you happen to truly want to walk the word of God and be a true ambassador for Christ and have respect well dont expect it with this ministry, no way not this ministry baby! You get M & A if you try that little stunt! But if you do try it boy dont make a mistake or let your hair down for even a second with this bunch 'cause if they see you then they have you by the short and curlies! Then they can tell you that sex is just fine with us...just a long as you deal with the problem that comes with it if you didn't attend to the "details" before you had sex. But now they really have you because you dared to "act better than them". When all along you were just trying to do the Word. But once having been caught being human they never let you forget that you are just as "bad" as them and they call you self righteous if you try to correct their behavior.
It was a truly sick way of thinking. Abortion is not a form of birth control. And should never be the decision of anyone but the parents IMO. And the "leaders" of der Vey had no clue what a "committment to God" really was, they talked about it and they told people what it was but I dont think that they ever made a committment to God. So they didn't care if you broke your committment, you are responsible to God for what you do...not them. They were just worthless creeps!
I was going to say "Dont get me started" then I read what I had written...it was too late...I got started...sorry, I'll shut up now.
It was sick Eyes. It is awfull what you had to do tobe considered a *vrtuous* woman...one whom was spiritually sharp and mature. I hated what I had to do, but I didn`t dare disobey God and not keep my commitment. I didn`t dare try to keep the child and risk trying to live life without God`s protection.
I couldn`t live with the shame of having let him down. I couldn`t live without the support and protection of the house hold.
All of that so called *freedom* just put us into horrble bondage.
It was sick Eyes. It is awfull what you had to do tobe considered a *vrtuous* woman...one whom was spiritually sharp and mature. I hated what I had to do, but I didn`t dare disobey God and not keep my commitment. I didn`t dare try to keep the child and risk trying to live life without God`s protection.
I couldn`t live with the shame of having let him down. I couldn`t live without the support and protection of the house hold.
All of that so called *freedom* just put us into horrble bondage.
The condemnation was used as a leash. It kept all of us bound to them. They were the ministry of God, we had to keep ourselves in good graces with them or God wouldn't spit in our direction. Just SICKENING!!!!!
I can totally understand exactly what you were feeling and thinking. You had to do anything to keep that committment. You would have walked on hot coals in bare feet if they were to tell you that was the only way to keep your committment. I know....I know...
But you have consolation, today you know that you did keep your committment. It was they who broke theirs. They will pay for the pain and suffering that has been caused at their hands. Never fear my dear friend God will repay to you what you have lost and he will bring them to task. And although you cry now...you will laugh again!
It just burns me up when I think of all the wonderful people that bought their B*ll Sh!t and believed that God is some tyrant that would want people to debase themselves and place themselves in a place of such shame and pain to keep a committment. We all make mistakes, we all sin and come short of the glory of God. God isn't stupid and he isn't a tyrant. He made forgiveness available only ask with repentance and he will forgive. But not in TWI no sir, our God will forgive you but then you have to do some other things to remain in his grace and in fellowship.
"Freedom"! My lily white tail end! The only people that had freedom were the ones that were not walking according to the Word. Well that's not entirely true one could be free in their own mind and personal walk as long as they stayed out of the sight of leadership. But that was not entirely free either. TWI was like a prison or a nut house that we all voluntarilly checked ourselves into. I'm just glad I survived and am out now.
I really just love the way this sounds in this version:
Galatians 5:19-26 (NIV)
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
It's funny how things were so different from place to place and person to person when TWI boasted of it's like-mindedness and "speaking the same thing" no matter where you go.
In the late 80s, I was engaged to my first husband. We did the deed in my house when nobody was home. Twig was held at my house, and my arse was reamed for having premarital sex in a Twig home. Yet the Corps girl I lived with went to another guy's house to boink him without any commitments. He had Twig at his house too, but that was OK.
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waysider
I had a friend who, in the late 70s, asked me to put my finger in her ear.
She then proceeded to tell me that it was "just skin touching skin" and no different than---well---you get the idea.
No, she wasn't coming on to me. She was trying to justify some recent activity.
And yes, she gave it the "freedom in The Word" spin.
She is a terrific person but being that she was my best friend's wife at the time, it sure was weird.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I once had a woman ask me to put my finger in her belly button...suddenly she shouted "Hey, that's not my belly button"...and I said "well, that's not my finger"
sorry...couldn't resist.
...but yes, I know what you mean. I have had numerous experiences where people would rationilize their desires of the flesh by talking about their "freedom in Christ"....
The top leadership of twi comes to mind.
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DogLover
When I was in a WOW Vet home in Chicago in 1981-82, I was concerned because in our home, an unmarried couple (who later married) were going to her room and having sex right after Twig with her then-11-year-old child right there. I spoke to the Branch leader's wife, Y*e**e (9th Corps) and she railed and railed and railed upon me about "how dare you think there's anything wrong with that?" with me sobbing ... until her husband, D*v*s came home from work and made her stop.
That was my starkest introduction to a person who thought that people's "freedom in Christ" allowed them to have premarital sex within 20 feet of the room a Bible fellowship had just finished in less than 20 minutes before. Y*e**e also told me I "had no right" to expect her to know the answer to the question of whether it was all right for people that were not married to one another to sleep together just because she was in the Corps.
Fortunately, our Area Leader K**s K*le (7th Corps) told me (in a later conversation) that I had EVERY right to expect her to know it was not right for them to do that. Sadly, the morals and certainty he possessed were hard to find in other Way ministry places. Thank you, K**s, wherever you are.
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Ham
I would agree that the concept was MAINLY isolated to people at the top of the organization.. like "they" say, the cops have the best dope in the world..
I dunno.. I think this kind of teaching.. the spirit is holy, the flesh is merely flesh.. kinda made people schizophrenic. Like you have two personalities, a good guy, a bad guy..
I remember merely asking a few questions of someone in the 1970's about having morals of a Guinea Pig.. not really being accusative.. the easy going party guy went away, and I was talking to the "spirit guy", "DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH MY RIGHTEOUSNESS!!"
I was waiting for his head to start spinning around..
I think it's like.. there's two of them in there, and they have come to some kind of agreement..
"you don't touch my women, beer or dope, and I'll be nice, and let you look important when you teach in fellowship.."
Who knows.. maybe these people were screwed up to begin with..
Edited by Mr. HammeroniLink to comment
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another spot
Boy that brought back a memory I had forgotten. I had a real good friend who was living a way home. He got home from work one night and there was an engaged couple going at it in the middle of the living room floor. He made the mistake of saying something, and got his room torn up the next day while at work.
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Eyesopen
Hahaha...wow that did bring back some memories! My WOW sister had an affair on the field and our Limb C. allowed it. She even got engaged on the field. But it was ok because she was "going through some things" and needed to "let loose" and "unwind". So it was ok for her to ignore her committment, the family and everything else so she could spend time with her boyfriend (who was by TWI standards an unbeliever)
Yup it was a wacky year!
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TheHighWay
I don't believe the concept stayed only at the "top" of the food chain...
I have talked to lots of average, non-WOW, non-Corps believers who lived through situations where either they, or the people around them, freely bed-hopped, claiming their righteousness in Christ as the supporting Biblical rationale.
It may have started at the top, but like all other twi doctrines, it spread across the field in no time.
"... morals of a Guinea Pig... " mrph, snort, hrmph... LOL... good one, Ham!!
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templelady
Look kids
, this is really simple
Definition of "Freedom in the Word"
Any action, idea, or belief system that is held by and/or actively practiced by the MOG or WOG is covered by "freedom in the word".
Any action, idea, or belief system that is not held by and/or actively practices by the MOG or WOG is not covered by "freedom in the word"
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Ham
I would agree with all the above Mo, but isn't it pronounced "keeeeds"?
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Belle
TWI was already become extremely legalistic when I got involved so I missed the "freedom" that most folks experienced at the lower levels.
In fact, I had been going to a fellowship about 30 minutes from my house when I learned that there were several that were closer. The girl who I had been going with agreed to go with me to a few of the closer fellowships. We were trying to find out when they met and were promptly told that we could go to each of them once, but that I needed to find a fellowship and stick with that one. Fellowship hopping was not permitted.
The only "real" "freedom" I was exposed to was when I started dating the guy I married. We were told by not a few folks that we needed to "test drive the car" before committing our lives to each other. It was even one of the questions Moneyhands asked us when we started marriage counseling with him.
I feel terrible about the hypocrisy of my actions now because my room mate was getting all hot and bothered one night with a non-TWIt who was in town to visit her. It was outrageous in our eyes and my ex and I broke the whole thing up and the poor guy ended up leaving right away - embarrassed and probably pretty peeved. I'm sure he wondered what the heck happened to the fun loving girl he had known and why the heck she was letting a couple of goons dictate what she did in her personal life.
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Ham
Legalism.. hmm. Seems the legalistic sycophants at the top found it rather difficult to jump through their own hoops. If there are any bad feelings about this, I think it is that the immoral sob's still insisted upon sticking their noses in everybody elses business.
They were hypocrites.
I think they gave "immorality" a bad name..
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nyunknown
WOW pardon me! Excuse me are you telling us that in one of the 10 commandment thou shall not commit adultery? .Did I miss something? The way corp doe'nt teach that? I wonder why? Oh I get it L.C Martindale. They want to honor him by doing the same thing. But was he not forced to resign in disgrace? So these couples do the same thing are they not in disgrace too? They should should re-name the TWI into TSI The sex international international? The would not obey the word of God but It would be more fun!
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Nottawayfer
My cousin left TWI because of this kind of garbage he saw. He experienced his WOW Fam Coord, a hot WC female, taking "naps" with the married LC. He confronted her about it, but it seemed she had been taking naps with many of leadership in TWItville.
After LCM's Believer's Family Class, the wife of our BC was shouting from the roof tops that the people in the fellowships should just go get laid to relax a little. Her answser to everything was to get laid. I saw a lot of people's hearts get hurt over this kind of thing. It obviously isn't meant to be.
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waysider
Well, you see, NY, you've stumbled on something that is at the core of what is taught in TWI.
That is, that the 10 commandments were not written to the church as we know it today, hence the concept of "Freedom in the Word".
I think it's what normal people call a LOOPHOLE!
So, to answer your question, yes, the subject of adultery is taught, but it is not assigned the same meaning that most people give it.
In fact, it has been taught in TWI (don't know if it still is) that adultery refers to "spiritual" adultery and that the physical concept is for the understanding of those not "spiritually mature" enough to grasp it's true meaning.
Again, sounds suspiciously like rationalization at best and downright twisting of the scriptures to suit ones own agenda.
I hope that wasn't too confusing.
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TheHighWay
Actually, that's an excellent summation of the whole subject, in my opinion.
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rascal
When I got pregnant on the wow field, I assumed of course that I had blown it past all possibility of redemption.... that I had to leave and did so. I was sought out and taken to the lc`s. I was told in no uncertain terms... that the *sin* wasn`t in HAVING sex ...only if I allowed the pregnancy to interfere with the commitment/promise/vow that I had made to God.
I was stunned that sex was not viewed as taboo...that it wasn`t any big deal at all...it only became a big deal if I didn`t deal with my *little problem*
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Eyesopen
I truly hated the attitude that TWI took towards sex and pregnancy. Like most cults they used sex as a coersion tool. It was just another way to control the masses. And a way to boost membership. I mean who wouldnt mind a little "legalism" if they could have sex with whomever they wanted? And if you get the girl pregnant...no worries the "Church" will make them get an abortion. <_< And if you happen to be the female that wants "certain things" then you too can be a whore for Jesus. But don't worry nobody will call you that to your face. But you may be called upon to take a few naps with various people.
If you happen to truly want to walk the word of God and be a true ambassador for Christ and have respect well dont expect it with this ministry, no way not this ministry baby! You get M & A if you try that little stunt! But if you do try it boy dont make a mistake or let your hair down for even a second with this bunch 'cause if they see you then they have you by the short and curlies! Then they can tell you that sex is just fine with us...just a long as you deal with the problem that comes with it if you didn't attend to the "details" before you had sex. But now they really have you because you dared to "act better than them". When all along you were just trying to do the Word. But once having been caught being human they never let you forget that you are just as "bad" as them and they call you self righteous if you try to correct their behavior.
It was a truly sick way of thinking. Abortion is not a form of birth control. And should never be the decision of anyone but the parents IMO. And the "leaders" of der Vey had no clue what a "committment to God" really was, they talked about it and they told people what it was but I dont think that they ever made a committment to God. So they didn't care if you broke your committment, you are responsible to God for what you do...not them. They were just worthless creeps!
I was going to say "Dont get me started" then I read what I had written...it was too late...I got started...sorry, I'll shut up now.
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rascal
It was sick Eyes. It is awfull what you had to do tobe considered a *vrtuous* woman...one whom was spiritually sharp and mature. I hated what I had to do, but I didn`t dare disobey God and not keep my commitment. I didn`t dare try to keep the child and risk trying to live life without God`s protection.
I couldn`t live with the shame of having let him down. I couldn`t live without the support and protection of the house hold.
All of that so called *freedom* just put us into horrble bondage.
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Eyesopen
The condemnation was used as a leash. It kept all of us bound to them. They were the ministry of God, we had to keep ourselves in good graces with them or God wouldn't spit in our direction. Just SICKENING!!!!!
I can totally understand exactly what you were feeling and thinking. You had to do anything to keep that committment. You would have walked on hot coals in bare feet if they were to tell you that was the only way to keep your committment. I know....I know...
But you have consolation, today you know that you did keep your committment. It was they who broke theirs. They will pay for the pain and suffering that has been caused at their hands. Never fear my dear friend God will repay to you what you have lost and he will bring them to task. And although you cry now...you will laugh again!
It just burns me up when I think of all the wonderful people that bought their B*ll Sh!t and believed that God is some tyrant that would want people to debase themselves and place themselves in a place of such shame and pain to keep a committment. We all make mistakes, we all sin and come short of the glory of God. God isn't stupid and he isn't a tyrant. He made forgiveness available only ask with repentance and he will forgive. But not in TWI no sir, our God will forgive you but then you have to do some other things to remain in his grace and in fellowship.
"Freedom"! My lily white tail end! The only people that had freedom were the ones that were not walking according to the Word. Well that's not entirely true one could be free in their own mind and personal walk as long as they stayed out of the sight of leadership. But that was not entirely free either. TWI was like a prison or a nut house that we all voluntarilly checked ourselves into. I'm just glad I survived and am out now.
I really just love the way this sounds in this version:
Galatians 5:19-26 (NIV)
The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft, hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires. Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.
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waysider
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Nottawayfer
It's funny how things were so different from place to place and person to person when TWI boasted of it's like-mindedness and "speaking the same thing" no matter where you go.
In the late 80s, I was engaged to my first husband. We did the deed in my house when nobody was home. Twig was held at my house, and my arse was reamed for having premarital sex in a Twig home. Yet the Corps girl I lived with went to another guy's house to boink him without any commitments. He had Twig at his house too, but that was OK.
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