Older crowd and very refined - lots of money in that church. Lots of ministry stuff for the kids and very good activities. The service is a little "stuffy" and lacks any real emotion - sorta pasturized. But the fellowship afterwards is warm. People always chat, exchange names, etc. I feel I could talk about doctorine issues with the pastor there - might not get far, but I think he'd be okay about it... They are trinitarian
Church #2 - Non-Denom:
Lots of young couples and young families. The worship service is very outgoing for New England - lots of singing and prayer - very soulful. The fellowship afterwards is not outgoing - people seem to be in a hurry to leave and never really chat, other than in their cliques. Not much for the kids - Sunday school is more like babysitting/play group. I have also noticed that the same five or six names come up all the time in the program - they don't let others serve much. I wouldn't dare approach them on doctorine - they are uber-trinitarian and the teachers often miss the point of scriptures - take them out of context totally.
I'm not dissatisfied with how I am treated by the worshippers or the pastors at either of the two churches. I hop between the two because I keep thinking one might get better and I'll settle down - but both are consistant in their strengths and weaknesses. There's not much more that isn't RC in my area, I'm afraid... so... this is as good as it gets. Could be better... but I've definiately seen WORSE!
To sum it up - the beliefs in the two are very similar but one is more "blantant" than the other... it just depends on what you can stomach, but it's all the same really...
I think it becomes up to the participant to decide which church feels comfortable to them... and how much disagreement they are willing to tolerate. I agree that all the off-shoots are from people wanting to have a church that fits them "just right", unlike the old days where you believed what you were told and went to the same church your family always attended, or you didn't and you left the church. All or none. Those were the choices.
In my early days with local churches I found that those who flat-out said they agreed with their church's doctrine, no questions asked, were usually the ones who asked no questions, gave it no thought, and read their Bibles with their own pastor's interpretation happily ringing in their ears.
I went from church to church, looking for that "perfect match" to what I believed doctrinally and practically. I never found it.
Oddly enough, that is why I joined twi. I liked their approach to studying the Bible, and I wanted to be different than those stuffy, unthinking people that never questioned anything. Hah! I became worse than them because not only did I eventually behave exactly as they did, but I tried to force my views on everyone else. Wow, the joke was on me, wasn't it?
Now, I find that I cannot be comfortable with any church or religious group for long. Not for lack of tolerance, but for a lack on my part of any really hard-set beliefs. I feel that God gave us a lot of freedom in how we choose to worship Him, and I no longer feel bound by what others tell me I must do in order to please Him. Church has lost most of its impact on me.
Oddly enough, that is why I joined twi. I liked their approach to studying the Bible, and I wanted to be different than those stuffy, unthinking people that never questioned anything. Hah! I became worse than them because not only did I eventually behave exactly as they did, but I tried to force my views on everyone else. Wow, the joke was on me, wasn't it?
Now, I find that I cannot be comfortable with any church or religious group for long. Not for lack of tolerance, but for a lack on my part of any really hard-set beliefs. I feel that God gave us a lot of freedom in how we choose to worship Him, and I no longer feel bound by what others tell me I must do in order to please Him. Church has lost most of its impact on me.
You've been reading my mind again, The Highway!
I'm just so over organized religion. There are two very different churches that I attend very sporadically, like Chas:
- Small Methodist Church - I just adore the folks there, the atmosphere, the genuine love for giving in the community - regardless of what those they are helping believe - other religions involved in the effort - and they never expect anything in return. They genuinely give because they love to help. The message on Sunday is always uplifting, inspiring and/or comforting. They know my TWI background and that I have "issues" with some of the things they believe, but they are always willing to discuss those things with me if I ask. (I only bring those things up at the appropriate time & place, of course)
- Religious Science Church - This place is a little less personal and I can be as involved or invisible as I want to be here. I like that. I also like that there is much leeway and acceptance of different beliefs and religions in general. It's more Unitarian than anything else and I've learned a great deal about other belief systems since attending. Each service is different and readings are from multiple religious books like the Koran, Torah, Bible, Science of Mind...
We're NOT going to all agree on everything and doctrinal issues have become much less significant to me. IMO, it all boils down to the two greatest commandments:
- Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength
First Corinthians 1:10 says "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
Teaching that verse in the 1979 Advanced Class, segment 6, here is an exact quote of what we were taught by the man of God who unfolded God's Word to us:
"And class, that can only be when we all speak the same thing on God’s Word. No one will ever qualify for First Corinthians one, ten, unless they get their heads and their hearts into the accuracy of the integrity and the greatness of God’s Word. How will we ever speak the same thing unless we study the same thing, people, and let the Word of God speak for itself. If you and I do not rightly divide the Word of God, there’s gonna be division among us."
Only God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are perfect in word, deed, action and thought.
No one man has EVER gotten the whole message right.
The Bible has been edited, cut and otherwise altered over the ages to fit whichever dogma was in charge of same.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints holds that it is the one true church. ****A premiss that I agree with or why else would I have joined.?*****
We have a living prophet, that gives us revelation when so directed by God. Unlike the mog of TWI, we are not asked to accept what comes from the mouth of the prophet as "gospel" we are instead commanded, to pray and read our scriptures to ascertain if what we have been told is truly in line with God's Word. Are there "sheep" within the church that will follow whatever the prophet says without thinking? Of course! This type of person exists in every organization, but the LDS church is unique in it's-test-it-for-yourself approach to doctrine. Before I joined the church, I was involved with no less than NINE different denominations including TWI- none of them ever gave the individual this amount of freedom of choice in matters of doctrine.
The interesting thing is that holding the belief that we are the one true church DOES NOT make LDS etal. judgemental, or sanctimonious. You are allowed to discuss any doctrinal beliefs you may hold, with the Bishop, his counselors or any other church member. As one of the adult gospel doctrine teachers I have frequently had visitors ask pertinent questions or share ideas from different belief systems. Those ideas were thoughtfully discussed by the class. I myself have interjected beliefs, held by different denominations, that I still consider to be valid. We do not consider ourselves to be "better" than everyone else in fact we are repeatedly told that such thinking violates one of God's most fundamental of ordinances, "Judge not least ye be judged". As a church we are loving, generous, and welcoming no matter your religious persuasion.
I never imagined that I would ever find the love, acceptance and joy that I have found within the fold of the LDS Church, it has been rejuvinating, healing, invigorating and inspirational. It has caused a 180' turnaround in many areas of my life that I considered permanently "broken"
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints holds that it is the one true church. ****A premiss that I agree with or why else would I have joined.?*****
...
I believe that the Roman Catholic church already beat the LDS church to the punch on that claim.
I don't believe we will ever agree on what is "right". My question is "Why is it important?" Is it so terrible to not have the same thoughts and opinions on anything, including the Bible? I don't think so. It is determinig what is "right" that has caused division in so many groups. Rightness became an issue in TWI because they believed they were the only ones who had it right. All of us here can see where that got us.
Who cares if somone is trinitarian or not? Does that really make them an idol worshipper? Does that make them less of a person? Does that make them blatantly wrong?
I'm just trying to live life and enjoy it along the way. I don't care what the pastor believes or even what he teaches as long as I am comfortable being in the congregation and love is shared there. I might not agree with all things, but that is where I've taught myself not to get my panties in a wad about the small stuff.
Stating one's opinion doesn't get us in trouble. For example, in my opinion, VPW was a lying, manipulating predator who abused God's people to satisfy his lust for power, sex and money. See, no trouble here.
If someone wants to call him "the man of God," that's their dementia. More powerless to them!
I don't believe we will ever agree on what is "right". My question is "Why is it important?" Is it so terrible to not have the same thoughts and opinions on anything, including the Bible? I don't think so. It is determinig what is "right" that has caused division in so many groups. Rightness became an issue in TWI because they believed they were the only ones who had it right. All of us here can see where that got us.
Who cares if somone is trinitarian or not? Does that really make them an idol worshipper? Does that make them less of a person? Does that make them blatantly wrong?
I'm just trying to live life and enjoy it along the way. I don't care what the pastor believes or even what he teaches as long as I am comfortable being in the congregation and love is shared there. I might not agree with all things, but that is where I've taught myself not to get my panties in a wad about the small stuff.
Sme beliefs in Christianity , as in most other religions, are so core to the entire religion as to be indespensible and therefore irrefutable if one wishes to continue to practice that religion.
The question I use to deternmine the importance of various viewpoints in Chrsitianity is:
Does belief either way in this tenet effect the efficacy[sic] of the Life of Jesus Christ and his Atonement for all of mankind?
If the answer is no, then I feel I can safely relegate the entire issue to the "Interesting To Discuss But Not Pertinent To Salvation" pile. If the answer is yes, then the response is to put it in the "This is Necessary for the Atonement and Salvation To Be Alive in My Life" pile.
Stating one's opinion doesn't get us in trouble. For example, in my opinion, VPW was a lying, manipulating predator who abused God's people to satisfy his lust for power, sex and money. See, no trouble here.
If someone wants to call him "the man of God," that's their dementia. More powerless to them!
First Corinthians 1:10 says "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
Teaching that verse in the 1979 Advanced Class, segment 6, here is an exact quote of what we were taught by the man of God who unfolded God's Word to us:
"And class, that can only be when we all speak the same thing on God's Word. No one will ever qualify for First Corinthians one, ten, unless they get their heads and their hearts into the accuracy of the integrity and the greatness of God's Word. How will we ever speak the same thing unless we study the same thing, people, and let the Word of God speak for itself. If you and I do not rightly divide the Word of God, there's gonna be division among us.".
I beg to differ on VPW being "the man of God" – and it wasn't that he "unfolded God's Word to us" but that he twisted the Bible to his liking – his skewed interpretation of the Bible became "The Word of God" for his followers. It is ironic you quote a passage that mentions divisions in the church - read a little further - the context [see below] shows the division was from some people favoring certain leaders <_< . The idea I get from Paul's remarks is that when people follow a leader - to the point where it focuses on the leader and not Christ - it may very well eclipse the real message of the gospel and nullify the power of the Cross. In my opinion – that's exactly what VPW accomplished! He'd portray himself as the man of god having the CORRECT interpretation of the Bible. All his arrogant egocentric viewpoint did was foster elitism in followers – causing divisions in the body of Christ - "VPW followers are in the household and everyone else is tripped out" . Of course, he'd swear to ya on a stack of KJV Bibles and PFAL books that it wasn't about him .
"...How will we ever speak the same thing unless we study the same thing, people, and let the Word of God speak for itself." Oh yeah - let's think about how that actually worked in TWI: TWI followers all study the same thing - the PFAL book - and let VPW speak for the Word of God!
... And another thing to consider - Paul is addressing the church in its infancy – there were no systematic theologies of Christianity, no organized framework of thought written down - Paul's focus was usually about a relationship with Christ - not a relationship with a set of doctrines!
I Corinthians 1:10-17 NIV
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ."
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[b] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
Lord knows I've tried. I'd like to simply find people with a passion for the Bible that I have.
I often quote Psalms 138:2b "For thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." To find people with that same goal, "to magnify God's Word above opinion and ego" is the ultimate goal I have learned to look for.
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ChasUFarley
WOW, interesting timing, this thread.
I frequent two churches in my area.
Church #1 - A Community Church:
Older crowd and very refined - lots of money in that church. Lots of ministry stuff for the kids and very good activities. The service is a little "stuffy" and lacks any real emotion - sorta pasturized. But the fellowship afterwards is warm. People always chat, exchange names, etc. I feel I could talk about doctorine issues with the pastor there - might not get far, but I think he'd be okay about it... They are trinitarian
Church #2 - Non-Denom:
Lots of young couples and young families. The worship service is very outgoing for New England - lots of singing and prayer - very soulful. The fellowship afterwards is not outgoing - people seem to be in a hurry to leave and never really chat, other than in their cliques. Not much for the kids - Sunday school is more like babysitting/play group. I have also noticed that the same five or six names come up all the time in the program - they don't let others serve much. I wouldn't dare approach them on doctorine - they are uber-trinitarian and the teachers often miss the point of scriptures - take them out of context totally.
I'm not dissatisfied with how I am treated by the worshippers or the pastors at either of the two churches. I hop between the two because I keep thinking one might get better and I'll settle down - but both are consistant in their strengths and weaknesses. There's not much more that isn't RC in my area, I'm afraid... so... this is as good as it gets. Could be better... but I've definiately seen WORSE!
To sum it up - the beliefs in the two are very similar but one is more "blantant" than the other... it just depends on what you can stomach, but it's all the same really...
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Free Soul
The short answer to this question is, we can't; not until Christ returns.
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TheInvisibleDan
Which "Christ"?
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TheHighWay
I think it becomes up to the participant to decide which church feels comfortable to them... and how much disagreement they are willing to tolerate. I agree that all the off-shoots are from people wanting to have a church that fits them "just right", unlike the old days where you believed what you were told and went to the same church your family always attended, or you didn't and you left the church. All or none. Those were the choices.
In my early days with local churches I found that those who flat-out said they agreed with their church's doctrine, no questions asked, were usually the ones who asked no questions, gave it no thought, and read their Bibles with their own pastor's interpretation happily ringing in their ears.
I went from church to church, looking for that "perfect match" to what I believed doctrinally and practically. I never found it.
Oddly enough, that is why I joined twi. I liked their approach to studying the Bible, and I wanted to be different than those stuffy, unthinking people that never questioned anything. Hah! I became worse than them because not only did I eventually behave exactly as they did, but I tried to force my views on everyone else. Wow, the joke was on me, wasn't it?
Now, I find that I cannot be comfortable with any church or religious group for long. Not for lack of tolerance, but for a lack on my part of any really hard-set beliefs. I feel that God gave us a lot of freedom in how we choose to worship Him, and I no longer feel bound by what others tell me I must do in order to please Him. Church has lost most of its impact on me.
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Ham
I tend to agree with everybody, just not the same point, at the same time..
:)
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Belle
You've been reading my mind again, The Highway!
I'm just so over organized religion. There are two very different churches that I attend very sporadically, like Chas:
- Small Methodist Church - I just adore the folks there, the atmosphere, the genuine love for giving in the community - regardless of what those they are helping believe - other religions involved in the effort - and they never expect anything in return. They genuinely give because they love to help. The message on Sunday is always uplifting, inspiring and/or comforting. They know my TWI background and that I have "issues" with some of the things they believe, but they are always willing to discuss those things with me if I ask. (I only bring those things up at the appropriate time & place, of course)
- Religious Science Church - This place is a little less personal and I can be as involved or invisible as I want to be here. I like that. I also like that there is much leeway and acceptance of different beliefs and religions in general. It's more Unitarian than anything else and I've learned a great deal about other belief systems since attending. Each service is different and readings are from multiple religious books like the Koran, Torah, Bible, Science of Mind...
We're NOT going to all agree on everything and doctrinal issues have become much less significant to me. IMO, it all boils down to the two greatest commandments:
- Love God with all your heart, soul, mind and strength
- Love your neighbor as yourself
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TheHighWay
Now you've been reading MY mind, Belle.
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Mike
.
First Corinthians 1:10 says "Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment."
Teaching that verse in the 1979 Advanced Class, segment 6, here is an exact quote of what we were taught by the man of God who unfolded God's Word to us:
"And class, that can only be when we all speak the same thing on God’s Word. No one will ever qualify for First Corinthians one, ten, unless they get their heads and their hearts into the accuracy of the integrity and the greatness of God’s Word. How will we ever speak the same thing unless we study the same thing, people, and let the Word of God speak for itself. If you and I do not rightly divide the Word of God, there’s gonna be division among us."
.
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Eagle
Mike:
THE man of God?
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Larry N Moore
:) Yeah, it's funny how stating your OPINION can raise eyebrows.
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Mike
.
It’s much more funny how easily distracted from content and thought
some can be by their emotions
and by crowd mentality.
I saw it in TWI-1
and I see it now.
The answer to this thread title's question
is when we "study the same thing"
...the same RIGHT thing.
.
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templelady
Only God, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are perfect in word, deed, action and thought.
No one man has EVER gotten the whole message right.
The Bible has been edited, cut and otherwise altered over the ages to fit whichever dogma was in charge of same.
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints holds that it is the one true church. ****A premiss that I agree with or why else would I have joined.?*****
We have a living prophet, that gives us revelation when so directed by God. Unlike the mog of TWI, we are not asked to accept what comes from the mouth of the prophet as "gospel" we are instead commanded, to pray and read our scriptures to ascertain if what we have been told is truly in line with God's Word. Are there "sheep" within the church that will follow whatever the prophet says without thinking? Of course! This type of person exists in every organization, but the LDS church is unique in it's-test-it-for-yourself approach to doctrine. Before I joined the church, I was involved with no less than NINE different denominations including TWI- none of them ever gave the individual this amount of freedom of choice in matters of doctrine.
The interesting thing is that holding the belief that we are the one true church DOES NOT make LDS etal. judgemental, or sanctimonious. You are allowed to discuss any doctrinal beliefs you may hold, with the Bishop, his counselors or any other church member. As one of the adult gospel doctrine teachers I have frequently had visitors ask pertinent questions or share ideas from different belief systems. Those ideas were thoughtfully discussed by the class. I myself have interjected beliefs, held by different denominations, that I still consider to be valid. We do not consider ourselves to be "better" than everyone else in fact we are repeatedly told that such thinking violates one of God's most fundamental of ordinances, "Judge not least ye be judged". As a church we are loving, generous, and welcoming no matter your religious persuasion.
I never imagined that I would ever find the love, acceptance and joy that I have found within the fold of the LDS Church, it has been rejuvinating, healing, invigorating and inspirational. It has caused a 180' turnaround in many areas of my life that I considered permanently "broken"
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What The Hey
I believe that the Roman Catholic church already beat the LDS church to the punch on that claim.
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Nottawayfer
I don't believe we will ever agree on what is "right". My question is "Why is it important?" Is it so terrible to not have the same thoughts and opinions on anything, including the Bible? I don't think so. It is determinig what is "right" that has caused division in so many groups. Rightness became an issue in TWI because they believed they were the only ones who had it right. All of us here can see where that got us.
Who cares if somone is trinitarian or not? Does that really make them an idol worshipper? Does that make them less of a person? Does that make them blatantly wrong?
I'm just trying to live life and enjoy it along the way. I don't care what the pastor believes or even what he teaches as long as I am comfortable being in the congregation and love is shared there. I might not agree with all things, but that is where I've taught myself not to get my panties in a wad about the small stuff.
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Raf
Larry,
Stating one's opinion doesn't get us in trouble. For example, in my opinion, VPW was a lying, manipulating predator who abused God's people to satisfy his lust for power, sex and money. See, no trouble here.
If someone wants to call him "the man of God," that's their dementia. More powerless to them!
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templelady
Sme beliefs in Christianity , as in most other religions, are so core to the entire religion as to be indespensible and therefore irrefutable if one wishes to continue to practice that religion.
The question I use to deternmine the importance of various viewpoints in Chrsitianity is:
Does belief either way in this tenet effect the efficacy[sic] of the Life of Jesus Christ and his Atonement for all of mankind?
If the answer is no, then I feel I can safely relegate the entire issue to the "Interesting To Discuss But Not Pertinent To Salvation" pile. If the answer is yes, then the response is to put it in the "This is Necessary for the Atonement and Salvation To Be Alive in My Life" pile.
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Dot Matrix
Raf
I love your post
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T-Bone
I beg to differ on VPW being "the man of God" – and it wasn't that he "unfolded God's Word to us" but that he twisted the Bible to his liking – his skewed interpretation of the Bible became "The Word of God" for his followers. It is ironic you quote a passage that mentions divisions in the church - read a little further - the context [see below] shows the division was from some people favoring certain leaders <_< . The idea I get from Paul's remarks is that when people follow a leader - to the point where it focuses on the leader and not Christ - it may very well eclipse the real message of the gospel and nullify the power of the Cross. In my opinion – that's exactly what VPW accomplished! He'd portray himself as the man of god having the CORRECT interpretation of the Bible. All his arrogant egocentric viewpoint did was foster elitism in followers – causing divisions in the body of Christ - "VPW followers are in the household and everyone else is tripped out"
. Of course, he'd swear to ya on a stack of KJV Bibles and PFAL books that it wasn't about him 
.
"...How will we ever speak the same thing unless we study the same thing, people, and let the Word of God speak for itself." Oh yeah - let's think about how that actually worked in TWI: TWI followers all study the same thing - the PFAL book - and let VPW speak for the Word of God!
... And another thing to consider - Paul is addressing the church in its infancy – there were no systematic theologies of Christianity, no organized framework of thought written down - Paul's focus was usually about a relationship with Christ - not a relationship with a set of doctrines!
I Corinthians 1:10-17 NIV
10I appeal to you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that all of you agree with one another so that there may be no divisions among you and that you may be perfectly united in mind and thought. 11My brothers, some from Chloe's household have informed me that there are quarrels among you. 12What I mean is this: One of you says, "I follow Paul"; another, "I follow Apollos"; another, "I follow Cephas[a]"; still another, "I follow Christ."
13Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into[b] the name of Paul? 14I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius, 15so no one can say that you were baptized into my name. 16(Yes, I also baptized the household of Stephanas; beyond that, I don't remember if I baptized anyone else.) 17For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power.
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Eagle
No problem stating opinion...even when one believes that VPW or whoever is the man of God.
Should be NO problem then in a free forum if someone challenges the opinion, is there? Mine is challenged all the time.
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YIdon'tgotochurch
ONCE AGAIN,
Y I don't go to church.....
Lord knows I've tried. I'd like to simply find people with a passion for the Bible that I have.
I often quote Psalms 138:2b "For thou hast magnified thy word above all thy name." To find people with that same goal, "to magnify God's Word above opinion and ego" is the ultimate goal I have learned to look for.
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Eagle
Y:
You're right. It IS tough going to church.
The only way out...is to begin your own. At least you would have control over the things you believe and hopefully find those like-minded.
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GrouchoMarxJr
and let me guess...YOU know what the right thing is...right?
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doojable
And the thread begins the decent into the Doctrinal basement........
Third floor...Liars, pimps, theives,
Second floor....Plagerism, pimps, thieves....
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ChasUFarley
Why does someone always have to be *right*?
And especially when SO MANY are convined that they are RIGHT... ???
You forgot drunken plaigerists, dumb MOG jocks in rainbow trimmed warm up suits, and masculine-looking matrons who only vacation with women.
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