...You are throwing out everything good that many loving leaders and believers taught and lived. NOT everyone was screwed up especially back in the 70's. There are a multitude of victory stories because of what was leaned in PFAL. Perhaps not all of it was accurate but who has the ALL truth today? No one......
As you can see, people in TWI think differently than normal people. If you are somewhat inactive in your faith, your family probably doesn't make a no-holds-barred effort to pressure you into being in church three or four times a week (the TWI minimum), to pay 15% of your income as offerings, to eliminate all debt, etc. Your church wouldn't excommunicate you for low activity and command your parents and siblings to pressure you until you return (or to shun you if you don't). You and your parents wouldn't be living in deep guilt and fear that terrible things will happen to you.
This sounds pretty accurate, compared to what I personally witnessed. Pretty calm wording.. doesn't sound like he's frothing at the mouth or anything..
People in twi DO think differently than "normal" people.
I should know.. I was in it, and I'm hardly "normal"
But I think he makes a valid point. I think he's done a pretty good job climbing inside the shoes of someone in the organization.
His parents sound courteous to you. But it is probably contingent on you becoming part of TWI. They still hope that they can get you (and their son) back into full participation in TWI. As you may have heard, they consider marriage between Wayers and non-Wayers to be out of the question (they call it between "believers and unbelievers," because they don't consider Christians in general to be believers)
I would agree based on my first hand experience, and that of others.
Nothing "reactionary" here.. not that I detect.
Just that, you wanna marry a wayfer, you're GOING to go to "church", and in twi's case, as a church, it "sucks".
The real sad thing, is I remember the vey's habit of thought too.. I'd be terrified to even read something like this.
John J, I agree with you that the concept that one must SIT to be born again is wrong. I also agree that SIT is not absolute evidence that someone is born again. However, on the following point, I would disagree. You said:
"+ TWI was wrong to say people should be taught to SIT, prophesy, etc. The result was that many people were "manifesting" a human ability to mimic SIT, prophecy, etc. Even an unbeliever can fake these by babbling or by saying something that sounds like a Biblical prophecy. It can become very mechanical. You can't find any Biblical phrase that says that an Apostle "taught" someone to prophesy or SIT."
I was led into SIT in the same way that VPW led people into SIT in session 12, but it was a few years before I'd met anyone from twi. I had never even heard of SIT, and I had certainly never heard anyone doing it, so I had nothing to copy and no basis for "faking" it. The instructions given boiled down to the same thing as in PFAL: if I would be willing to speak, God would give me the words. Take a deep breath and just start speaking. So I have no beef with the way people were led into it; I do agree that there was way too much pressure, that everyone must SIT. That, and the pressure to interpret and prophecy spawned a lot of made-up messages.
You also said:
"+ the idea that people can manifest on command makes the leader who commands someone to manifest the mover rather than the Spirit himself."
If I'm understanding you correctly, I agree. I thought it was better when someone leading a fellowship would ask those who were inspired to manifest to stand up, and then chose from among them.
From what I've observed, those who've been a part of twi and who think the best of Dr. Juedes, also seem to think the worst about twi. Is that mere coincidence?
"by their fruits ye shall know them"
Make no mistake, Dr. Juedes is a one-track crusader against twi desiring to poison people against it. In everything else in his life, he may be quite reasonable.
I would say that John J has done and continues to do a good job about warning people about what twi is all about.
In their current state, they are not helping anyone develop a true and vital relationship with God. (Remember twi's definition of godliness?)
Nevertheless, twi had some info that could be helpful and God was somehow able to reach us with some well-meaning folks who happened to be a part of twi. In my opinion there are now other much safer ways to find and seek out God's heart. If we truly seek Him we will find!
He does not allow varying opinions about twi on his website.
Yeah, so? TWI doesn't allow varying opinions on their website, nor do most sites run by current or former members. He's giving information, not inviting debate. You want to write glowing information about TWI? Start your own website.
Maybe there is confusion as to which John J. we're talking about:
Consider this early example of American political graffiti:
"Damn John Jay! Damn everyone who won't damn John Jay!! Damn everyone that won't put lights in his windows and sit up all night damning John Jay!!!"
Written on a wall on Boston, this delicious bit of invective had to do with the 1795 treaty with Great Britain that the famous Federalist John Jay negotiated on behalf of the administration of George Washington. Jay’s treaty did not result in any significant changes in British maritime policy, which had aggrieved American businessmen with mercantilist restrictions and American citizens with the impressment of sailors for the British fleet. It secured some territorial concessions and moved some British off of military posts on American soil, where they had been encouraging Indian tribes to raid frontier settlements. But it was wildly unpopular, helping to fuel the formation of Thomas Jefferson’s new party and his presidential challenge to John Adams the following year.
He will gladly, share and post about every evil work committed in twi but doesn't allow "positive" and "godly" experiences and happenings of those of us who may want to share them. What does that tell you?
It suggests to me that he has a purpose for his site that is specific and focused.
It also suggests to me that he is aware that people wishing to have a forum-like discussion can find that type of activity at GSC.
The real "poison" was session #7, Oldies.
That's the session that teaches us to put on blinders and deny the reality all around us.
If you won't even *consider* that to have some validity, you will have proved my point.
We all know you had good times in the old days.
I did, too.
Lots of people did.
That doesn't change or excuse what was really going on behind the scenes when a good many of us were out of the sight lines.
Session #7 was the one that taught the 5 steps the serpent used to deceive Eve.
STEP # 1;
She considered.
Yes, boys and girls, you too can avoid being tricked by the adversary if you remember that you must not ever, ever, ever *consider* any viewpoints that contradict TWI doctrine.
(It's just the adversary trying to get you to doubt that you know that you know that you know.)
Literal according to usage:
Put the blinders on and refuse to even consider any alternative train of thought lest ye be stricken with emrods and ye walk outside the protective bubble of God's protection where the adversary waits to devour all who venture too far from accepted(ie: TWI) doctrine.
As far as I'm concerned, this was the glue that held the whole thing together.
Four crucified, the more abundant life and broken cisterns were just Sunday School lessons in comparison.
oldies, poison is the stuff that kills you. what dr. juedes appears to be desiring is to give folks an ANTIDOTE to twi poison.
"One track crusader... poison against TWI... antidote..." sounds pretty strong.
I think of myself a little like Dorothy's dog Toto in The Wizard of Oz, pulling back the curtain to find that there's no wizard in TWI, just a charlatan. I never had to do much except expose what was going on behind the scenes, out of the sight or knowledge of the average Wayer. I didn't have to make up stuff, just pass on info about what TWI leaders didn't know, or didn't want you to know.
Although the TWI charlatans were doing much more damage to people than the Wizard was doing to Oz.
Session #7 was the one that taught the 5 steps the serpent used to deceive Eve.
STEP # 1;
She considered.
Yes, boys and girls, you too can avoid being tricked by the adversary if you remember that you must not ever, ever, ever *consider* any viewpoints that contradict TWI doctrine.
(It's just the adversary trying to get you to doubt that you know that you know that you know.)
Literal according to usage:
Put the blinders on and refuse to even consider any alternative train of thought lest ye be stricken with emrods and ye walk outside the protective bubble of God's protection where the adversary waits to devour all who venture too far from accepted(ie: TWI) doctrine.
As far as I'm concerned, this was the glue that held the whole thing together.
Four crucified, the more abundant life and broken cisterns were just Sunday School lessons in comparison.
Ohhhh -- that's right.
Change a word, add a word, delete a word, flog the word, ignore the word, etc.
My, my !! The memories -- how they flood my soul!!!
We don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, (Where have you been John, this is not true. )but rather that he has both divine and human natures. Because he has a human nature he can be born physically, and because he has a divine nature he has always existed. NOT!
JOHN, this is not scriptural, Jesus Christ did not always exist? God would never have needed Adam if this were true. You don't exist then become a baby, speak baby talk etc. and go thru all the growing that Jesus Christ did and of course if he was God he knew everything then when he was a baby he didn't know anything? This is confusion and garbage..........You also have a very bad misconception of the Christian Church. THEY DO BELIEVE Jesus Christ is God and they do pray to Jesus as God. God Almighty.........and they stand by that, they even yell at you that you are damned if you do not believe that.
This is something that VPW and many of his followers never seem to have understood- (I never heard that one before, Jesus Christ was human so of course he would get tired etc. Don't know where you get this information but it's false.) that Jesus can do what people do (like get tired, die) because he has a human nature, and that he can do things that only God can do (be worshipped, forgive sins on his own, (have always exitsed, NOT TRUE! etc) because he has a Divine nature. His human attributes don't contradict his God-nature, they supplement it.
We (who is the we) don't believe that Jesus is the Father, (Don't know where you have been John but you are wrong, they do believe that Jesus is the Father)
We don't normally pray to Jesus, but to the Father in Jesus' name. All the Christians I have heard from other churches DO NORMALLY pray to Jesus. This is the common NT practice. However, one basis for praying at times to Jesus as some do is John 14:14, "you may ask me for anything in my name and I will do it."
You misquoted that one, never did Jesus say "ask me" for anything in my name and I will do it". It clearly says ask IN MY NAME not ask me? Jesus Christ is our intercessor and goes to the Father for us.Added a few words here John.and forgot this one [John 16:26 Â At that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you:/b] (There goes Jesus talking to himself again! NOT)
"The other propblem is that many Christians don't explain their beliefs very well, which leads to misunderstandings. The point of my article " "Is Jesus God?" was not to show that Jesus is God, but to tell Christians to be more careful in explaining things to people like ex-wayers. Saying "Jesus is God" leads people to misunderstandings, because it implies that Jesus was not a man also. It's better to say "Jesus was both man and God."(I'm sure they would not appreciate your insight and would disagree with you John).
Jesus Christ was not both God and man, God was in him but he was not God. This is all watered down horse crap.
I apologize if I do not know how to handle quotes that well, but I have to tell you John that for all your effort to discredit TWI, you are very misinformed on many issues (not all but many) and that discredits your authority. You only heard the trash, you apparently never considered the good that was done in TWI. Sometimes I think there were two different ministries functioning. However; many believers had prayed for help and The Way came along and gave them that, I was one of them. Do you think if they asked God for bread he would give them a stone? I give you credit in that you may have ministered to and helped many believers get over some of their hurts, but as to being an authority on TWI and the Word, I do not agree. I also am not an authority on the Word but what I know I stand on.
As for session 7, I think the Word speaks for itself as to what Eve did. It was not TWI's doctrine, it is clear from the Word what happened to Eve. Here I disagree with D Miller, NO ONE ever told me not to consider other viewpoints but TWI. I was taught to research the Word to find out what IT SAID. It's pretty clear that when it came to the WORD, that EVE did make these mistakes and it was very insightful of VPW to point this out.
John the more you speak, the more you discredit yourself as an authority. I do feel you have an agenda. We don't have to agree on TWI doctrine, but I take exception with not agreeing on letting the Word speak. You have every right to believe what you want to and so do I. However; Jesus Christ is not and never was God........and I will not debate that, the Word stands clear no matter how one tries to twist it.
In conclusion John, I am sorry you never got to see any of the good in TWI. I have to agree with Oldies, there does seem to be another agenda here. Maybe it's because we can all speak freely here. I wish you well.
Yeah, so? TWI doesn't allow varying opinions on their website, nor do most sites run by current or former members.
I would add: consider the smallness of the content of der vey's website. Every bit of "good" they can possibly wring out of the organization is there, and they have what..
a few piecemeal "teachings.."
a few pictures of middle and older aged people with a well rehearsed smile on their faces..
very likely older archive photos of the auditorium and grounds when they were a lot better kept up..
and no names. Why? You'd think they'd want to hang the credit (or blame) on somebody for those few abreviated inane "teachings"..
like it's owner, the website is rather "small". If not small minded.
If they were really honest..
They'd have a page about their history.. with at least a FACTUAL treatment of the life and death of it's founder. Perhaps biographical info about who runs the place now. Perhaps a description of the content of their classes and seminars. Perhaps even the rules and expectations of participants in their various programs..
And you don't get this information, from der vey.
I think John Juedes really fills in a vacuum here.. not in a manner der vey may like..
I'm glad he chose to interact with us. I don't fault him for a few factual errors.. it's like learning another language..
As for session 7, I think the Word speaks for itself as to what Eve did. It was not TWI's doctrine, it is clear from the Word what happened to Eve. Here I disagree with D Miller, NO ONE ever told me not to consider other viewpoints but TWI. I was taught to research the Word to find out what IT SAID.
Yeah, so? TWI doesn't allow varying opinions on their website, nor do most sites run by current or former members. He's giving information, not inviting debate. You want to write glowing information about TWI? Start your own website.
Apples and oranges. TWI has a website that supports their own belief and product; they are not condemning anyone else. In contrast, where twi is concerned, Dr. Juedes communicates only negative and poisonous information. Big difference. He's on a mission. It's one thing to have a website to promote your own belief and product, and its entirely another to condemn another ministry, providing only one side of an argument.
Dr. Juedes communicates only negative and poisonous information
like, what? Could you give a few examples of this "poisonous" information?
" "dr" wierwille died of cancer.."
it's only negative if a person chooses to make it negative. Of course, cancer=devil spirt would make it quite negative, if the doctrine were true.
Poison is only poisonous by considering the context, or relationship to a given organism. Penicillin is poisinous to certain bacteria.. but to people, it is a medicine.
To people who are against twi and want only to see one side of it, the bad side, Dr. Juedes provides medicine and goodness, I suppose.
But for me, it is poison. I was involved for 19 years and do not accept only one side, only the negative comments and situations that Dr. Juedes promotes.
Just forget everything good that happened and focus only on the dirt and sins of people. Is that godliness? Is that what God wants me to do? I doubt it; but where twi is concerned, I think this is what Dr. Juedes is all about.
I don't understand Oldies, you don't stand with twi, but you defend them?
I was with twi almost my whole life, I don't need websites or anything to convince me something is terribly wrong with twi. There were no "good times" for me to look back on (I missed the 70s).
What are you defending? (It's just no making sense to me)
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oldiesman
I agree.
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Ham
I saw a few nice honest articles.. "I'm dating a wayfer, what do I do.."
http://www.abouttheway.org/
This sounds pretty accurate, compared to what I personally witnessed. Pretty calm wording.. doesn't sound like he's frothing at the mouth or anything..
People in twi DO think differently than "normal" people.
I should know.. I was in it, and I'm hardly "normal"
But I think he makes a valid point. I think he's done a pretty good job climbing inside the shoes of someone in the organization.
I would agree based on my first hand experience, and that of others.
Nothing "reactionary" here.. not that I detect.
Just that, you wanna marry a wayfer, you're GOING to go to "church", and in twi's case, as a church, it "sucks".
The real sad thing, is I remember the vey's habit of thought too.. I'd be terrified to even read something like this.
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Linda Z
John J, I agree with you that the concept that one must SIT to be born again is wrong. I also agree that SIT is not absolute evidence that someone is born again. However, on the following point, I would disagree. You said:
"+ TWI was wrong to say people should be taught to SIT, prophesy, etc. The result was that many people were "manifesting" a human ability to mimic SIT, prophecy, etc. Even an unbeliever can fake these by babbling or by saying something that sounds like a Biblical prophecy. It can become very mechanical. You can't find any Biblical phrase that says that an Apostle "taught" someone to prophesy or SIT."
I was led into SIT in the same way that VPW led people into SIT in session 12, but it was a few years before I'd met anyone from twi. I had never even heard of SIT, and I had certainly never heard anyone doing it, so I had nothing to copy and no basis for "faking" it. The instructions given boiled down to the same thing as in PFAL: if I would be willing to speak, God would give me the words. Take a deep breath and just start speaking. So I have no beef with the way people were led into it; I do agree that there was way too much pressure, that everyone must SIT. That, and the pressure to interpret and prophecy spawned a lot of made-up messages.
You also said:
"+ the idea that people can manifest on command makes the leader who commands someone to manifest the mover rather than the Spirit himself."
If I'm understanding you correctly, I agree. I thought it was better when someone leading a fellowship would ask those who were inspired to manifest to stand up, and then chose from among them.
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oldiesman
From what I've observed, those who've been a part of twi and who think the best of Dr. Juedes, also seem to think the worst about twi. Is that mere coincidence?
"by their fruits ye shall know them"
Make no mistake, Dr. Juedes is a one-track crusader against twi desiring to poison people against it. In everything else in his life, he may be quite reasonable.
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sprawled out
oldies, poison is the stuff that kills you. what dr. juedes appears to be desiring is to give folks an ANTIDOTE to twi poison.
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penguin
I would say that John J has done and continues to do a good job about warning people about what twi is all about.
In their current state, they are not helping anyone develop a true and vital relationship with God. (Remember twi's definition of godliness?)
Nevertheless, twi had some info that could be helpful and God was somehow able to reach us with some well-meaning folks who happened to be a part of twi. In my opinion there are now other much safer ways to find and seek out God's heart. If we truly seek Him we will find!
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Oakspear
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Oakspear
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Bolshevik
Maybe there is confusion as to which John J. we're talking about:
http://www.carolinajournal.com/jhdailyjour...al.html?id=1800
(Maybe not funny)
P.S.
Thank you Dr. Juedes for your website.
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waysider
[quote name='oldiesman' date='Jul 5 2007, 09:42 AM' post='347535'
He will gladly, share and post about every evil work committed in twi but doesn't allow "positive" and "godly" experiences and happenings of those of us who may want to share them. What does that tell you?
It suggests to me that he has a purpose for his site that is specific and focused.
It also suggests to me that he is aware that people wishing to have a forum-like discussion can find that type of activity at GSC.
The real "poison" was session #7, Oldies.
That's the session that teaches us to put on blinders and deny the reality all around us.
If you won't even *consider* that to have some validity, you will have proved my point.
We all know you had good times in the old days.
I did, too.
Lots of people did.
That doesn't change or excuse what was really going on behind the scenes when a good many of us were out of the sight lines.
STAGE DIRECTION----- Enter Oldiesman
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dmiller
It's been about 23 or so years for me. So forgive me for forgetting.
What was in session #7 ???
(I could look for, and pull out my syllabus, but I'm feeling lazy tonight!)
:)
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waysider
dmiller
Session #7 was the one that taught the 5 steps the serpent used to deceive Eve.
STEP # 1;
She considered.
Yes, boys and girls, you too can avoid being tricked by the adversary if you remember that you must not ever, ever, ever *consider* any viewpoints that contradict TWI doctrine.
(It's just the adversary trying to get you to doubt that you know that you know that you know.)
Literal according to usage:
Put the blinders on and refuse to even consider any alternative train of thought lest ye be stricken with emrods and ye walk outside the protective bubble of God's protection where the adversary waits to devour all who venture too far from accepted(ie: TWI) doctrine.
As far as I'm concerned, this was the glue that held the whole thing together.
Four crucified, the more abundant life and broken cisterns were just Sunday School lessons in comparison.
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johnj
"One track crusader... poison against TWI... antidote..." sounds pretty strong.
I think of myself a little like Dorothy's dog Toto in The Wizard of Oz, pulling back the curtain to find that there's no wizard in TWI, just a charlatan. I never had to do much except expose what was going on behind the scenes, out of the sight or knowledge of the average Wayer. I didn't have to make up stuff, just pass on info about what TWI leaders didn't know, or didn't want you to know.
Although the TWI charlatans were doing much more damage to people than the Wizard was doing to Oz.
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dmiller
Ohhhh -- that's right.
Change a word, add a word, delete a word, flog the word, ignore the word, etc.
My, my !! The memories -- how they flood my soul!!!
PRECIOUS MEMORIES.
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socks
Yohn Yay...
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1 john 3:1
I apologize if I do not know how to handle quotes that well, but I have to tell you John that for all your effort to discredit TWI, you are very misinformed on many issues (not all but many) and that discredits your authority. You only heard the trash, you apparently never considered the good that was done in TWI. Sometimes I think there were two different ministries functioning. However; many believers had prayed for help and The Way came along and gave them that, I was one of them. Do you think if they asked God for bread he would give them a stone? I give you credit in that you may have ministered to and helped many believers get over some of their hurts, but as to being an authority on TWI and the Word, I do not agree. I also am not an authority on the Word but what I know I stand on.
As for session 7, I think the Word speaks for itself as to what Eve did. It was not TWI's doctrine, it is clear from the Word what happened to Eve. Here I disagree with D Miller, NO ONE ever told me not to consider other viewpoints but TWI. I was taught to research the Word to find out what IT SAID. It's pretty clear that when it came to the WORD, that EVE did make these mistakes and it was very insightful of VPW to point this out.
John the more you speak, the more you discredit yourself as an authority. I do feel you have an agenda. We don't have to agree on TWI doctrine, but I take exception with not agreeing on letting the Word speak. You have every right to believe what you want to and so do I. However; Jesus Christ is not and never was God........and I will not debate that, the Word stands clear no matter how one tries to twist it.
In conclusion John, I am sorry you never got to see any of the good in TWI. I have to agree with Oldies, there does seem to be another agenda here. Maybe it's because we can all speak freely here. I wish you well.
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excathedra
huh ?
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Ham
I would add: consider the smallness of the content of der vey's website. Every bit of "good" they can possibly wring out of the organization is there, and they have what..
a few piecemeal "teachings.."
a few pictures of middle and older aged people with a well rehearsed smile on their faces..
very likely older archive photos of the auditorium and grounds when they were a lot better kept up..
and no names. Why? You'd think they'd want to hang the credit (or blame) on somebody for those few abreviated inane "teachings"..
like it's owner, the website is rather "small". If not small minded.
If they were really honest..
They'd have a page about their history.. with at least a FACTUAL treatment of the life and death of it's founder. Perhaps biographical info about who runs the place now. Perhaps a description of the content of their classes and seminars. Perhaps even the rules and expectations of participants in their various programs..
And you don't get this information, from der vey.
I think John Juedes really fills in a vacuum here.. not in a manner der vey may like..
I'm glad he chose to interact with us. I don't fault him for a few factual errors.. it's like learning another language..
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WhiteDove
Exactly......
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oldiesman
Apples and oranges. TWI has a website that supports their own belief and product; they are not condemning anyone else. In contrast, where twi is concerned, Dr. Juedes communicates only negative and poisonous information. Big difference. He's on a mission. It's one thing to have a website to promote your own belief and product, and its entirely another to condemn another ministry, providing only one side of an argument.
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Ham
I dunno.. looking at the record now, it looks pretty vague and general to me.. "she saw, she desired, she ate.."
I think a person has to make quite a few assumptions to say that "THIS is how the adversary works today".
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Ham
like, what? Could you give a few examples of this "poisonous" information?
" "dr" wierwille died of cancer.."
it's only negative if a person chooses to make it negative. Of course, cancer=devil spirt would make it quite negative, if the doctrine were true.
Poison is only poisonous by considering the context, or relationship to a given organism. Penicillin is poisinous to certain bacteria.. but to people, it is a medicine.
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oldiesman
To people who are against twi and want only to see one side of it, the bad side, Dr. Juedes provides medicine and goodness, I suppose.
But for me, it is poison. I was involved for 19 years and do not accept only one side, only the negative comments and situations that Dr. Juedes promotes.
Just forget everything good that happened and focus only on the dirt and sins of people. Is that godliness? Is that what God wants me to do? I doubt it; but where twi is concerned, I think this is what Dr. Juedes is all about.
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Bolshevik
I don't understand Oldies, you don't stand with twi, but you defend them?
I was with twi almost my whole life, I don't need websites or anything to convince me something is terribly wrong with twi. There were no "good times" for me to look back on (I missed the 70s).
What are you defending? (It's just no making sense to me)
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