The most encouraging thing of all is to hear of people who've left TWI largely behind and have established a healthy spiritual and emotional life outside TWI. I hope that's not as rare as it sometimes seems to me, since TWI seems to have left very deep, lasting scars in a lot of people.
Actually, a LOT of posters have announced they got everything they needed from here,
thanked everyone, and said they were getting on with their lives.
I count each one a success story.
Ditto a lot of posters who check in rarely.
Although I've written most of the 100 or so articles on abouttheway.org there are probably over a dozen people who have written articles. While I haven't kept track of details, I'm sure that the testimonies of ex-wayers are heavily read. In that sense the site is a team effort. And even my own articles are due in large part to people who have sent me material, shared their experiences with me, or asked questions. Many people have been helpful in many ways, and I am sort of a "front man" for them.
Gee, a front-man who acknowledges that others do a lot of the work, and doesn't take all the credit
Johnj, I didn`t know that you were here reading this stuff. I want to say that I know you don`t do what you do for the praise, but I can only hope that you can understand what putting those first hand testimonies out there for people to read of the cruel nature, of the debauchery indulged in by these people we were taught were God`s representatives.
Without these eye witness accounts of the true spiritual nature of these men....many of us would be lost forever, trying desperately to make faulty doctrine work..doomed to repeated failures , only blaming ourselves for our lack of believing, deperately wondering what door we allowed satan in to have such difficulties.
In reading those first hand testimonies...we are faced with the brutal truth of these leaders true natures...that they are untrustworthy, that their doctrine was not THE word of God for our day and time.
It isn`t until we come to grips with these uncomfortable truths that we can stop blaming ourselves for failure...condemning ourselves ... that we can finally begin our journey towards wholeness.
I can only thank you, thank paw and thank paul allen for making all of this information available to us who were still trying desperately to be pleasing to God.
You guys did more than just move on with your own lives after learning of the deception. You made it available for so many thousands of the rest of us to recieve healing and deliverance.
I see God at work through the efforts of you folks.
Dr. Juedes had helped me along the way during my years when I found myself in opposition to TWI doctrine. I ended up buying all of his materials, which he sent promptly.
I was wondering about his higher education credentials until he just revealed them in his post. It was wonderful to see that.
He knows quite a bit on the off-shoots as well. When I had my webpage and debated the Fall of Man against TWI doctrine, I was challenged by an off-shoot still following Wierwille and was told "to use the Word of God." I remembered chapter and verse, and used hundreds of them in the article I wrote, so I was confused about that. I wrote Dr. Juedes and told him if there was "something" psychologically off" about that response.
He humorously wrote back and said that when Wierwille followers say "to use the Word of God", it meant to them "as Wierwille would have done it."
I wasn't bothered too much on those comments anymore.
For the most part, Dr. Juedes has agreed with the contents of my own book, but I believe he definitely disagrees with some chapters, for whatever theological or philosophical reason. My book is anti-TWI on doctrine, which does go to show that even if you oppose TWI, he may or may not agree with how you did it.
One day, he did stop answering my emails. I was pretty sad about it.
He has done a terrific job and is a very good Christian minister and pastor.
Ha! I once began calling him "Doctor." Then I freaked out. Yes, he is a legitimate one, but the habit came forth like a flashback and hit him on it by mistake.
Could be the reason he stopped emailing! I remembered to just call him "Dr. Juedes" instead of "Doctor". It probably creeped him out.
when dot and i were trying to figure things out some years ago, she would laugh as i would say, "well, on that judas priest's site...." (i could have written marsha's story almost to the letter)
Ex-
I'm sure my site's been called worse than "judas priest!" By the way, it's a sad irony that "Judas" is a name attached to betrayal. The name "Judas," "Jude" and "Judah" are just variant spellings of the same name. (The "s" ending is a Greek ending, while the "h" ending is a Hebrew ending, and "Jude" seems to be a compromise between the two.) Most Judah/Judes in the Bible are quite honorable, esp the Lord's brother who wrote the epistle. (Church history also says that the Lord's brother was called up by a Roman official, and Jude showed that he was not rich, and worked his land like every other farmer, supporting himself as he was a leader in the church.)
Marsha's story was one of the first sex stories we published. It was a hard decision to make, for a variety of reasons. There is the general problem of making such accusations in public, but also the specific problem of trying to ascertain if any particular story is contrived in some way. But since then (including on this forum) several people had corraborated Marsha's story in various ways, and many readers have found it to be eye-opening and healing. By the way, if some of you still think publishing such stories is a bad idea, check out my "Editor's Statement on Sex Stories" at www.abouttheway.org for a sketch about why I went ahead and published them. The sad thing is, there are scores, if not hundreds, of women who could have written similar ones about their expeirneces with TWI leadership.
judas priest is a heavy metal band from england. so it really wasn't an insult. it was more like i couldn't pronounce your name.... :)
i saw something on history channel or some such about the gospel of judas and also how the story of judas might not be what we think.... it was interesting
Yeah, She did say, "You know what I read on the Judas Priest site"
It was hard to remember your actual name cause she said it all the time. It was a fun way to remember your site. It was so healing when I climbed out from under the pyroclaustic cloud....
John, I remember I told you I was almost afraid to go to a church, I felt weird and like a green monster that would stand out like a giant derwf wad. You asked if I wanted you to call any of the ministers of the churches I was checking out as x-cult people need to be handled differently. (Your words were nicer than that) I told you if one person told me, "Where were you?" If I decided not to attend something I was afraid I'd blow or fall apart at the time.
You were the first person to help me remember kindness, it felt so good. Such a contrast to TWI.
Thank you so much
John what do you know about BG Leonard and the relationship to VP. BG must have known his life's work was hijacked.
Now back to the point of this post, not necessarily John's website having an anti-Way section, but if having a website at all against TWI gets old after a while.
I have to say that as long as TWI continues to operate in the fashion it does, the websites will remain standing.
"Return to the practice you had before joining the Way. If speaking in tongues was beneficial, then continue it if you wish. If, however, you began speaking in tongues during Power for Abundant Living or under Way tutelage, then do not continue this practice, because The Way is promoting a "different spirit" and counterfeit manifestations, as 2 Corinthians 11 describes. One finds evangelical believers who speak in tongues and others who do not. "
What did you mean by The Way is or was promoting a "different spirit" and counterfeit manifestations? I have never had anyone whom I witnessed to not be able to speak in tongues. All believers can speak in tongues, this is not a PFAL teaching, it's the Word.........however, it's free will but they all can. So how is that a different spirit & counterfeit manifestations. I learned that I could speak in tongues from TWI, however I didn't have to take the class to do it? So what is the "different spirit & counterfeit manifestations.
You are throwing out everything good that many loving leaders and believers taught and lived. NOT everyone was screwed up especially back in the 70's. There are a multitude of victory stories because of what was leaned in PFAL. Perhaps not all of it was accurate but who has the ALL truth today? No one......
Do you not believe in the manifestations of the gift of holy spirit?
Did I read that you believe that Jesus Christ is God? Jesus was born, God was not. If you believe Jesus is God and you pray to Jesus, then God is not getting the prayer and worship he deserves and I disagree with any believer teaching others to pray to Jesus & believing that God is calling them to do that. Jesus Christ never taught this. Please tell me if I am misreading what you said.
Every Christian church I have ever been in and I was raised in a big one, all pray to Jesus. This is wrong according to the Word of God. There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. It was in his name, not to him.
So I have to ask you what ministry is it that you really have if you are teaching that Jesus is God and not God being God.
Your description of Jesus Christ, God and the Holy Spirit are very very different from traditional churches. Most of them teach that Jesus is God........Jesus is The Father. They teach a trinity and that word never, never appears in the Bible.
I am only asking because I would like to know your beliefs to clarify your teachings against TWI or what you disagree with them on.
John, I remember I told you I was almost afraid to go to a church, I felt weird and like a green monster that would stand out like a giant derwf wad. You were the first person to help me remember kindness, it felt so good. Such a contrast to TWI.
John what do you know about BG Leonard and the relationship to VP. BG must have known his life's work was hijacked.
Dot-
Most everyone feels afraid at least to some degree about going to a new church, because most of us feel hesitant to walk into any room full of strangers not knowing exactly what will happen there. But for sure people who had bad experiences in cults or cult like groups are most sensitive of all.
I don't know much about BG Leonard. But his newsletter had a warning IN BOLD PRINT as though he was shouting (not actually shouting, but very, very firm) that bsically said "you'd better not plariarize me!!!" I assumed it was because he knew about VP plagiarizing him, was angry about it and didn't want anyone else to think they could do the same.
this is not a PFAL teaching, it's the Word.........
Not all agree that it's "the Word"
Did I read that you believe that Jesus Christ is God? Jesus was born, God was not. If you believe Jesus is God and you pray to Jesus, then God is not getting the prayer and worship he deserves and I disagree with any believer teaching others to pray to Jesus & believing that God is calling them to do that. Jesus Christ never taught this. Please tell me if I am misreading what you said.
Why would you be surprised that some (most) Christians believe that Jesus is God. There are scriptures that back up that position, and there are scriptures that back up the position that he isn't.
Every Christian church I have ever been in and I was raised in a big one, all pray to Jesus. This is wrong according to the Word of God.
This is wrong according to your opinion.
So I have to ask you what ministry is it that you really have if you are teaching that Jesus is God and not God being God.
Sounds like when Wierwille and Martindale suggested that those believed differently weren't really Christians.
Your description of Jesus Christ, God and the Holy Spirit are very very different from traditional churches. Most of them teach that Jesus is God........Jesus is The Father.
very few churches teach that Jesus is the Father, even while teaching that he is God.
They teach a trinity and that word never, never appears in the Bible.
Neither do the terms "Gift Ministries", "Sonship Rights", or "Abundant Sharing".
Edited by Oakspear
johnj, I have never met you personally but have read your posts about TWI over the years.
Your efforts and work in bringing the truth about TWI to light are extremely important because you were never affiliated with TWI and therefore cannot convincingly be accused, by some of the more die-hard Wierwille apologists, of having a personal ax to grind.
For this reason what you have written and spoken over the years should be a "mandatory" stop along the way for those seeking to learn about The Way (pun intended).
For those among the readers and posters at GSC who insist the stories about the predatory nature of VPW and the horrors that were inflicted on multiple young woman, are at best fabrications I have only this question to ask:
Why would a man like John Juedes give so much of his time and place his reputation on the line to "defame" VPW when he has no personal stake in the matter, makes little or no money from his efforts, and in doing so takes on the additional burdens, outside of his congregation, of the former members of TWI???
I can think of no reason he would do so and continue to do so unless what he had to say was verifiable truth.
I join with the other posters on this thread in thanking you for your efforts both in what you have done and in taking the time to come answer questions on this thread.
Did I read that you believe that Jesus Christ is God? Jesus was born, God was not. If you believe Jesus is God and you pray to Jesus, then God is not getting the prayer and worship he deserves and I disagree with any believer teaching others to pray to Jesus & believing that God is calling them to do that. Jesus Christ never taught this. Please tell me if I am misreading what you said.
Every Christian church I have ever been in and I was raised in a big one, all pray to Jesus. This is wrong according to the Word of God. There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. It was in his name, not to him.
So I have to ask you what ministry is it that you really have if you are teaching that Jesus is God and not God being God.
Most of them teach that Jesus is God........Jesus is The Father.
Dear Friend,
Sometimes people don't accept the historic teaching of the Church about Jesus Christ because they have honest Scriptural disagreement with it, and sometimes because they don't really unerstand it (or a mix of the two). The things you wrote lead me to believe that you don't really understand what the Church has always taught about Christ. The evangelical Church (and I) don't believe several iof the things that you say we beleive.
We don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, but rather that he has both divine and human natures. Because he has a human nature he can be born physically, and because he has a divine nature he has always existed. This is something that VPW and many of his followers never seem to have understood- that Jesus can do what people do (like get tired, die) because he has a human nature, and that he can do things that only God can do (be worshipped, forgive sins on his own, have always exitsed, etc) because he has a Divine nature. His human attributes don't contradict his God-nature, they supplement it.
We don't believe that Jesus is the Father, instead we believe there's a distinction bewteen the two. The Church has always thought that a few small groups like the "Oneness" Pentecostals (like the United Pentecostal Church) are wrong when they say that Jesus is the Father.
We don't normally pray to Jesus, but to the Father in Jesus' name. This is the common NT practice. However, one basis for praying at times to Jesus as some do is John 14:14, "you may ask me for anything in my name and I will do it."
This thread is probably not the place to debate teaching, but I just wanted to mention that misunderstandings are part of the reason ex-wayers have trouble with some evangelical Christian teaching.
The other propblem is that many Christians don't explain their beliefs very well, which leads to misunderstandings. The point of my article "Is Jesus God?" was not to show that Jesus is God, but to tell Christians to be more careful in explaining things to people like ex-wayers. Saying "Jesus is God" leads people to misunderstandings, because it implies that Jesus was not a man also. It's better to say "Jesus was both man and God."
Juedes wrote in an article on www.abouttheway.org :
"Return to the practice you had before joining the Way. If speaking in tongues was beneficial, then continue it if you wish. If, however, you began speaking in tongues during Power for Abundant Living or under Way tutelage, then do not continue this practice, because The Way is promoting a "different spirit" and counterfeit manifestations, as 2 Corinthians 11 describes. One finds evangelical believers who speak in tongues and others who do not. "
1 john 3:1 wrote:
What did you mean by The Way is or was promoting a "different spirit" and counterfeit manifestations? You are throwing out everything good that many loving leaders and believers taught and lived. NOT everyone was screwed up especially back in the 70's. Do you not believe in the manifestations of the gift of holy spirit?
I wrote the above article as a thoughtful attempt to answer questions people had after they left TWI and wondered what to do about all they'd learned or done there. It's important to consider this carefully as many of you have done.
I think TWI did teach a "different Jesus, different Spirit" as 2 Corinthians 11 warns us about. Certainly TWI itself thought it taught a very different Jesus and Spirit from evanelical Christianity. And the Jesus/Spirit got different-er and different-er as years went by, as typically happens when you have a "Teacher" who has unquestioned authority in a group.
TWI had a lot of corruption in both teaching and practice, some high profile like adultery, others lower. so my first principle is to be suspicious of whatever it taught or practiced, which I think is safer than assuming it was good. My second principle is that while manifestations are useful, things like SIT, prophecy, etc are not essential to a mature Christian life. There are many vibrant, mature Christians who don't do either. I do recognize that not everyone in TWI was screwed up (though its leaders tried...), esp in the 70s. However, in order to avoid the TWI corruption, I think it is the safer approach to go back to whatever practice people had before TWI- to SIT if they did so before TWI (as I did) or to not SIT if they began to do so in TWI.
Other people have other opinions on this, but I think the more cautious one is wiser.
I believe in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, but not in the way TWI did/does. I think anyone who's read of the CES crisis about personal prophecy has come to the conclusion that there are counterfeits or false manifestations that are not from God... most of which are just human ("flesh"), failed attempts that in most cases don't have a bad motive behind them.
How do you view the speaking in tongues in ones own private prayer life?  Could you include your scriptural references with those reasons as to why you think TWI taught it wrongly?  Thanks.
John, How do you view the speaking in tongues in ones own private prayer life?  Could you include your scriptural references with those reasons as to why you think TWI taught it wrongly?  Thanks.
ButnowIsee: 1 Cor 14 speaks favorably of speaking in tongues in one's prayer life (as I do), and of public use when there is an interpretation. I think TWI was off on its teachings about SIT in a few ways:
+ not every believer must SIT. It's very common in the book of Acts, but the point of the illustration of the body of Christ is that not everyone has the same charismata. Just as each part of your physical body is different, so every believer in the body of Christ has different charismata
+ SIT is not incontrovertible evidence that a person is born again. Jesus said "by your fruits you will know them" not "by their speaking in tongues you will know them." The Bible frequently speaks of spiritual deception (wolves disguised in sheep's clothing, etc). If SIT is a failsafe way to tell true believers from false, deception would be impossible- SIT and you "pass," can't SIT and you fail
+ TWI was wrong to say people should be taught to SIT, prophesy, etc. The result was that many people were "manifesting" a human ability to mimic SIT, prophecy, etc. Even an unbeliever can fake these by babbling or by saying something that sounds like a Biblical prophecy. It can become very mechanical. You can't find any Biblical phrase that says that an Apostle "taught" someone to prophesy or SIT.
+ the idea that people can manifest on command makes the leader who commands someone to manifest the mover rather than the Spirit himself. It yields manifestations of human manufacture. I think many people who were in TWI either felt they were making things up as they went along or thought others were.
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Actually, a LOT of posters have announced they got everything they needed from here,
thanked everyone, and said they were getting on with their lives.
I count each one a success story.
Ditto a lot of posters who check in rarely.
Gee, a front-man who acknowledges that others do a lot of the work, and doesn't take all the credit
for their work! How refreshing!
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rascal
Johnj, I didn`t know that you were here reading this stuff. I want to say that I know you don`t do what you do for the praise, but I can only hope that you can understand what putting those first hand testimonies out there for people to read of the cruel nature, of the debauchery indulged in by these people we were taught were God`s representatives.
Without these eye witness accounts of the true spiritual nature of these men....many of us would be lost forever, trying desperately to make faulty doctrine work..doomed to repeated failures , only blaming ourselves for our lack of believing, deperately wondering what door we allowed satan in to have such difficulties.
In reading those first hand testimonies...we are faced with the brutal truth of these leaders true natures...that they are untrustworthy, that their doctrine was not THE word of God for our day and time.
It isn`t until we come to grips with these uncomfortable truths that we can stop blaming ourselves for failure...condemning ourselves ... that we can finally begin our journey towards wholeness.
I can only thank you, thank paw and thank paul allen for making all of this information available to us who were still trying desperately to be pleasing to God.
You guys did more than just move on with your own lives after learning of the deception. You made it available for so many thousands of the rest of us to recieve healing and deliverance.
I see God at work through the efforts of you folks.
Thank you.
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Eagle
Dr. Juedes had helped me along the way during my years when I found myself in opposition to TWI doctrine. I ended up buying all of his materials, which he sent promptly.
I was wondering about his higher education credentials until he just revealed them in his post. It was wonderful to see that.
He knows quite a bit on the off-shoots as well. When I had my webpage and debated the Fall of Man against TWI doctrine, I was challenged by an off-shoot still following Wierwille and was told "to use the Word of God." I remembered chapter and verse, and used hundreds of them in the article I wrote, so I was confused about that. I wrote Dr. Juedes and told him if there was "something" psychologically off" about that response.
He humorously wrote back and said that when Wierwille followers say "to use the Word of God", it meant to them "as Wierwille would have done it."
I wasn't bothered too much on those comments anymore.
For the most part, Dr. Juedes has agreed with the contents of my own book, but I believe he definitely disagrees with some chapters, for whatever theological or philosophical reason. My book is anti-TWI on doctrine, which does go to show that even if you oppose TWI, he may or may not agree with how you did it.
One day, he did stop answering my emails. I was pretty sad about it.
He has done a terrific job and is a very good Christian minister and pastor.
Eagle
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excathedra
johnj, i hope you get a kick out of this....
when dot and i were trying to figure things out some years ago, she would laugh as i would say, "well, on that judas priest's site...."
(i could have written marsha's story almost to the letter)
anyway, thanks again
and thanks for your post including me
love,ex
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Eagle
Judas Priest?
Ha! I once began calling him "Doctor." Then I freaked out. Yes, he is a legitimate one, but the habit came forth like a flashback and hit him on it by mistake.
Could be the reason he stopped emailing! I remembered to just call him "Dr. Juedes" instead of "Doctor". It probably creeped him out.
My apologies, John.
Eagle
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excathedra
ha
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johnj
Ex-
I'm sure my site's been called worse than "judas priest!" By the way, it's a sad irony that "Judas" is a name attached to betrayal. The name "Judas," "Jude" and "Judah" are just variant spellings of the same name. (The "s" ending is a Greek ending, while the "h" ending is a Hebrew ending, and "Jude" seems to be a compromise between the two.) Most Judah/Judes in the Bible are quite honorable, esp the Lord's brother who wrote the epistle. (Church history also says that the Lord's brother was called up by a Roman official, and Jude showed that he was not rich, and worked his land like every other farmer, supporting himself as he was a leader in the church.)
Marsha's story was one of the first sex stories we published. It was a hard decision to make, for a variety of reasons. There is the general problem of making such accusations in public, but also the specific problem of trying to ascertain if any particular story is contrived in some way. But since then (including on this forum) several people had corraborated Marsha's story in various ways, and many readers have found it to be eye-opening and healing. By the way, if some of you still think publishing such stories is a bad idea, check out my "Editor's Statement on Sex Stories" at www.abouttheway.org for a sketch about why I went ahead and published them. The sad thing is, there are scores, if not hundreds, of women who could have written similar ones about their expeirneces with TWI leadership.
John
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excathedra
john,
judas priest is a heavy metal band from england. so it really wasn't an insult. it was more like i couldn't pronounce your name.... :)
i saw something on history channel or some such about the gospel of judas and also how the story of judas might not be what we think.... it was interesting
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Dot Matrix
Yeah, She did say, "You know what I read on the Judas Priest site"
It was hard to remember your actual name cause she said it all the time. It was a fun way to remember your site. It was so healing when I climbed out from under the pyroclaustic cloud....
John, I remember I told you I was almost afraid to go to a church, I felt weird and like a green monster that would stand out like a giant derwf wad. You asked if I wanted you to call any of the ministers of the churches I was checking out as x-cult people need to be handled differently. (Your words were nicer than that) I told you if one person told me, "Where were you?" If I decided not to attend something I was afraid I'd blow or fall apart at the time.
You were the first person to help me remember kindness, it felt so good. Such a contrast to TWI.
Thank you so much
John what do you know about BG Leonard and the relationship to VP. BG must have known his life's work was hijacked.
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excathedra
i too remember, john, when you offered to hook me up with some real pastors
i declined
but you were just as wonderful and kind after that
--
ok, back to dottie's question about BG
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Eagle
Now back to the point of this post, not necessarily John's website having an anti-Way section, but if having a website at all against TWI gets old after a while.
I have to say that as long as TWI continues to operate in the fashion it does, the websites will remain standing.
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washingtonweather
Eagle -- off topic - I love that poem!!! First long one I memorized
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1 john 3:1
"Return to the practice you had before joining the Way. If speaking in tongues was beneficial, then continue it if you wish. If, however, you began speaking in tongues during Power for Abundant Living or under Way tutelage, then do not continue this practice, because The Way is promoting a "different spirit" and counterfeit manifestations, as 2 Corinthians 11 describes. One finds evangelical believers who speak in tongues and others who do not. "
What did you mean by The Way is or was promoting a "different spirit" and counterfeit manifestations? I have never had anyone whom I witnessed to not be able to speak in tongues. All believers can speak in tongues, this is not a PFAL teaching, it's the Word.........however, it's free will but they all can. So how is that a different spirit & counterfeit manifestations. I learned that I could speak in tongues from TWI, however I didn't have to take the class to do it? So what is the "different spirit & counterfeit manifestations.
You are throwing out everything good that many loving leaders and believers taught and lived. NOT everyone was screwed up especially back in the 70's. There are a multitude of victory stories because of what was leaned in PFAL. Perhaps not all of it was accurate but who has the ALL truth today? No one......
Do you not believe in the manifestations of the gift of holy spirit?
Did I read that you believe that Jesus Christ is God? Jesus was born, God was not. If you believe Jesus is God and you pray to Jesus, then God is not getting the prayer and worship he deserves and I disagree with any believer teaching others to pray to Jesus & believing that God is calling them to do that. Jesus Christ never taught this. Please tell me if I am misreading what you said.
Every Christian church I have ever been in and I was raised in a big one, all pray to Jesus. This is wrong according to the Word of God. There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus. It was in his name, not to him.
So I have to ask you what ministry is it that you really have if you are teaching that Jesus is God and not God being God.
Your description of Jesus Christ, God and the Holy Spirit are very very different from traditional churches. Most of them teach that Jesus is God........Jesus is The Father. They teach a trinity and that word never, never appears in the Bible.
I am only asking because I would like to know your beliefs to clarify your teachings against TWI or what you disagree with them on.
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dmiller
Hey there 1 john 3:1, for what it is worth ---
some of us (as in *I*, *me*, and *myself*),
Don't believe Jesus is God;
Do speak in tongues (taught to do so by Catholic Pentecostals);
Wonder how anyone can dismiss *administrations*;
Can't understand how one can't see the differentiation in usages of Holy Spirit;
BUT ---
By the same token -- I never *fixated* on that when I've looked at John's site.
The main point I saw there (and still do), is docvic's flagrant use of other's works,
while claiming them as his own. Maybe you don't see that, maybe you do.
Either way is cool, as it's a matter of perspective. I have mine, you have yours.
Dr. Juedes has offered the world an invaluable service (imo),
by eliminating the smoke and mirrors that twi used to mask legitimacy.
What he believes personally as far as doctrine goes, is one thing.
The facts he has presented about 1st, 2nd, 3rd edition books (put out by twi),
is another matter entirely, when compared with original authors.
Anyone can spout doctrine (myself included).
Not many can offer FACTS (as he has) that debunk authorship.
I prefer to see that aspect of his site,
and hold in abeyance the doctrinal aspect.
But that's just me.
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johnj
Dot-
Most everyone feels afraid at least to some degree about going to a new church, because most of us feel hesitant to walk into any room full of strangers not knowing exactly what will happen there. But for sure people who had bad experiences in cults or cult like groups are most sensitive of all.
I don't know much about BG Leonard. But his newsletter had a warning IN BOLD PRINT as though he was shouting (not actually shouting, but very, very firm) that bsically said "you'd better not plariarize me!!!" I assumed it was because he knew about VP plagiarizing him, was angry about it and didn't want anyone else to think they could do the same.
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Dot Matrix
Thanks John
BG's book said about the same thing in it
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1 john 3:1
thanks D
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Oakspear
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templelady
johnj, I have never met you personally but have read your posts about TWI over the years.
Your efforts and work in bringing the truth about TWI to light are extremely important because you were never affiliated with TWI and therefore cannot convincingly be accused, by some of the more die-hard Wierwille apologists, of having a personal ax to grind.
For this reason what you have written and spoken over the years should be a "mandatory" stop along the way for those seeking to learn about The Way (pun intended).
For those among the readers and posters at GSC who insist the stories about the predatory nature of VPW and the horrors that were inflicted on multiple young woman, are at best fabrications I have only this question to ask:
Why would a man like John Juedes give so much of his time and place his reputation on the line to "defame" VPW when he has no personal stake in the matter, makes little or no money from his efforts, and in doing so takes on the additional burdens, outside of his congregation, of the former members of TWI???
I can think of no reason he would do so and continue to do so unless what he had to say was verifiable truth.
I join with the other posters on this thread in thanking you for your efforts both in what you have done and in taking the time to come answer questions on this thread.
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act2
Ditto, templelady!!!!
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johnj
Dear Friend,
Sometimes people don't accept the historic teaching of the Church about Jesus Christ because they have honest Scriptural disagreement with it, and sometimes because they don't really unerstand it (or a mix of the two). The things you wrote lead me to believe that you don't really understand what the Church has always taught about Christ. The evangelical Church (and I) don't believe several iof the things that you say we beleive.
We don't believe that Jesus Christ is God, but rather that he has both divine and human natures. Because he has a human nature he can be born physically, and because he has a divine nature he has always existed. This is something that VPW and many of his followers never seem to have understood- that Jesus can do what people do (like get tired, die) because he has a human nature, and that he can do things that only God can do (be worshipped, forgive sins on his own, have always exitsed, etc) because he has a Divine nature. His human attributes don't contradict his God-nature, they supplement it.
We don't believe that Jesus is the Father, instead we believe there's a distinction bewteen the two. The Church has always thought that a few small groups like the "Oneness" Pentecostals (like the United Pentecostal Church) are wrong when they say that Jesus is the Father.
We don't normally pray to Jesus, but to the Father in Jesus' name. This is the common NT practice. However, one basis for praying at times to Jesus as some do is John 14:14, "you may ask me for anything in my name and I will do it."
This thread is probably not the place to debate teaching, but I just wanted to mention that misunderstandings are part of the reason ex-wayers have trouble with some evangelical Christian teaching.
The other propblem is that many Christians don't explain their beliefs very well, which leads to misunderstandings. The point of my article "Is Jesus God?" was not to show that Jesus is God, but to tell Christians to be more careful in explaining things to people like ex-wayers. Saying "Jesus is God" leads people to misunderstandings, because it implies that Jesus was not a man also. It's better to say "Jesus was both man and God."
John
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johnj
I wrote the above article as a thoughtful attempt to answer questions people had after they left TWI and wondered what to do about all they'd learned or done there. It's important to consider this carefully as many of you have done.
I think TWI did teach a "different Jesus, different Spirit" as 2 Corinthians 11 warns us about. Certainly TWI itself thought it taught a very different Jesus and Spirit from evanelical Christianity. And the Jesus/Spirit got different-er and different-er as years went by, as typically happens when you have a "Teacher" who has unquestioned authority in a group.
TWI had a lot of corruption in both teaching and practice, some high profile like adultery, others lower. so my first principle is to be suspicious of whatever it taught or practiced, which I think is safer than assuming it was good. My second principle is that while manifestations are useful, things like SIT, prophecy, etc are not essential to a mature Christian life. There are many vibrant, mature Christians who don't do either. I do recognize that not everyone in TWI was screwed up (though its leaders tried...), esp in the 70s. However, in order to avoid the TWI corruption, I think it is the safer approach to go back to whatever practice people had before TWI- to SIT if they did so before TWI (as I did) or to not SIT if they began to do so in TWI.
Other people have other opinions on this, but I think the more cautious one is wiser.
I believe in the manifestations of the Holy Spirit, but not in the way TWI did/does. I think anyone who's read of the CES crisis about personal prophecy has come to the conclusion that there are counterfeits or false manifestations that are not from God... most of which are just human ("flesh"), failed attempts that in most cases don't have a bad motive behind them.
John
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now I see
John,
How do you view the speaking in tongues in ones own private prayer life?  Could you include your scriptural references with those reasons as to why you think TWI taught it wrongly?  Thanks.
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johnj
ButnowIsee: 1 Cor 14 speaks favorably of speaking in tongues in one's prayer life (as I do), and of public use when there is an interpretation. I think TWI was off on its teachings about SIT in a few ways:
+ not every believer must SIT. It's very common in the book of Acts, but the point of the illustration of the body of Christ is that not everyone has the same charismata. Just as each part of your physical body is different, so every believer in the body of Christ has different charismata
+ SIT is not incontrovertible evidence that a person is born again. Jesus said "by your fruits you will know them" not "by their speaking in tongues you will know them." The Bible frequently speaks of spiritual deception (wolves disguised in sheep's clothing, etc). If SIT is a failsafe way to tell true believers from false, deception would be impossible- SIT and you "pass," can't SIT and you fail
+ TWI was wrong to say people should be taught to SIT, prophesy, etc. The result was that many people were "manifesting" a human ability to mimic SIT, prophecy, etc. Even an unbeliever can fake these by babbling or by saying something that sounds like a Biblical prophecy. It can become very mechanical. You can't find any Biblical phrase that says that an Apostle "taught" someone to prophesy or SIT.
+ the idea that people can manifest on command makes the leader who commands someone to manifest the mover rather than the Spirit himself. It yields manifestations of human manufacture. I think many people who were in TWI either felt they were making things up as they went along or thought others were.
John
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