It's been interesting to hear y'all talking about me (John Juedes)... a little like overhearing a conversation about you gong on in the room next door.
Here's a few clarifications... Pawtucket was my PFAL class coordinator when I took PFAL back in about 1982. It's interesting that we met back then and end up being in the positions we are today. I'm a PFAL grad and been to some twigs, but never was a bonifide leaf on the Way tree. But I have been a few places... at a Palm Sun am service at the BRC with VPW presiding (where I got a photo of the TWI police car), treated to a fruit lunch at Emporia where they sang me a nice visitor song (back when people actually were pretty welcome at The Way), toured Gunnison with a Corps resident, seen the gas pumps (no snow), visited Rome City, and more recently was interrogated by a pseudo cop at New Knoxville (you're definitetly not welcome at The Way today). I've seen VPW a couple of times but never conversed with him.
My degrees are legit: a Masters of Divinity from Concordia Seminary St Louis and Doctor of Ministry at Fuller Seminary, Pasaena CA (Ministry and Divinity is the same thing under a different name-- it includes classes on Bible teaching, exegesis, church history, and practical ministry, with emphasis on ministry. Before starting seminary you have to take at least 2 years of Greek and 1 semester of Hebrew).They have both regional and ATS accreditation, which is above average for seminaries. While wayers look down on seminaries, they teach some very good things that keep you from falling into traps like those in TWI.
My first article on TWI was published in 1980. The articles at www.abouttheway.org make a serious effort to include facts and information, not just opinions as in a blog. I think that even most people who disagree with the conclusions at least acknowledge that there is a lot of information there, not just opinion. Sometimes I get hate mail telling me to be more loving. I think a good deal (not all) of that is an emotional reaction to the info on the site. When people see the info they're pushed to make a choice for or against TWI. To chose against TWI includes major Losses... people have to admit to themselves that a lot of what they devoted themselves to over the years is false, deception or damaging, and that teachers they idolized are in some cases plagiarists, sexual predators and manipulators. This is an emotionally taxing (sometimes devastating) change. To be sold out to TWI and then leave after seeing its errors is very gut-wrenching for many people.
I don't hate anyone in TWI, and don't have a vendetta against it. But I have heard from a lot of people who've been very much hurt and damaged by it, and hope our articles help heal them and help them make sense of the change, and keep others from being likewise injured. I've heard many more stories from people who were damaged byTWI in some way (including more instances of sexual abuse), but haven't published them (I consider all email to me private and only publish letters with explicit permission from the writers). Some of these directly confirm stories we have published. Others confirm the general thought that many TWI leaders hurt their followers in various ways. Sometimes I hear from people whose names everyone would recognize. (And probably have heard from some others who didn't sign their real names) It's especially heartening to hear when some of these not only have left TWI but have found satisfying and dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ outside TWI and its splinters.
Our web site is not meant to be a newspaper which presents both sides of a situation without taking a stand. It is meant to persuade people that TWI and its offshoots aren't healthy spiritual places to be. But we do try to present objective evidence for this, not just opinion or allegation to give readers reason for what we say. (People have made other allegations we haven't published.) Sometimes when I write an article I give "the other side" a chance to see it and respond before I publish it (for example, I forwarded my article on crisis in CES to some of the principals in the controversy before publishing, tho not all responded).
I actually don't spend much time on TWI, comparitively speaking. I'm the full time pastor of a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church (more conservative Biblically than some Lutheran bodies), and teach leadership classes for leaders from various nearby churches. But since I've been writing about TWI for 28 years, I have an accumulation of material and a historical perspective that is unusual. I intentionally don't teach Lutheranism on abouttheway.org but instead point ex-wayers to the core of the Christian faith (represented in the Nicene Creed which is accepted by all Christian churches around the world). My intent is to represent evangelical Christianity not Lutheranism nor "my" ministry.
John Juedes saved my life via his walk with the TRUE God and his real love and kindness. I had my inner core of confidence pecked a way by VPW and his head harlot (aka pimp)
After Ralph D came out to stay with me -- much of what he said validated what I had done and believed in my heart about VPW and his harlot was true and not insanity as TWI tried to FORCE me to believe or direct me to suicide.
Then, I had a Bible I could not read as I only heard PFAL or VPW's thoughts when I would pick up the book. I would read the same area over and over with no light. Still weary and leery of traditional churches, I did not know how to shake myself of the layers of "wrongness" through which I desperately wanted to breathe free.
John Juedes tenderly wrote back and forth via emails. He reached out with a kind understanding hand and loved me with the great love of God. He understood how dirty I felt – even though I had not engaged in the sexual deviance offered to me by VPW and his harlot. I was confused as to how I could get so delivered by the PFAL class and placed in bondage by the teachings of the same man.
I found that VPW was a liar and a swindler – not by John’s words, but by his exposing the real VPW. He let me make a choice on the deception. Then, God graciously held my hand as I wrote a letter to John about all that went on with me “behind” the showmanship of the great Oz, oops VPW. And he posted it to help others – with my permission.
Then, I was ready to come and post here. I learned from people like Evan, Sunesis and others who had first hand knowledge of the inner circle. From there I studied BG Leonard and spoke with people who studied under him like Tim Sullivan… Had people pray for me and give me the sweet love of Jesus like Greek2me…. Glory to God!
Recently, in my still thirsty soul, I told God I wanted to get back to business. I had been Pentecostal prior to TWI. I had seen miracles and knew I had a call of service on me. Son of the Master appeared and he and his wife have been sharing stuff they have been researching while I was getting out of the painful, blinding hole I had fallen into.
I can only offer public thanks to John for being so gentle and kind to a dying sister in Christ and offer praise to a glorious God who did not leave me in the hole, but heard me and offered me steps I could handle to climb out.
Thanks to God and all of his people who truly love him.
And to those that continue to defend the wolf in sheep’s clothing, I offer my condolences. Nothing feels better than shedding the lies and clinging to the truth that a God who can mold clay and make man – loves you. HE loves you. He loves you. You do not have to rip your pants off to SERVICE a Moggie, you do not have to do sexual kneeling for anyone. You do not have to be picked apart, placed in a fear coma or have your family destroyed. That would be the devil with a happy bumper sticker and an alluring nametag telling you we knew more than most of the preachers out there today. That arrogance and sidetracking from Jesus is what allowed the devil to suck God out of our lives, or at least to be confused and hurt while we tried to cling to both God and TWI as they are not synonymous.
God Bless you, Dot. You are one of a kind. I will always think highly of you and your life and integrity.
John, my nephew is currently attending Fuller Seminary in Pasadena, CA. His wife works at the Children's Hospital in LA. My nephew has a master's degree in education, but was lead to preach.
John, also, thank you for all you have done to open eyes of understanding for people, including me.
Awesome post Dot. It takes a lot of courage to leave twi--but even more to lay out your story so others can see a glimpse of hope.
I am so embarrassed by all those years that I thought twi was "IT." I have a closer relationship to God and Jesus Christ than I ever had in twi--and it is because of getting involved in a local church and talking to others here.
I cannot tell you how embarrassed and ashamed I am of what I allowed in my life because of the confusion I had between a class that helped me and the man who taught it was hurting me.
I am ashamed before God that when he sounded the alarms to run away I did not listen. I have reasons. I wanted “to save” the ministry, I felt an allegiance due to some “good times” back in the beginning.
Truth: Any good was because God is huge and loves us in an enormous way. If God tells you to leave – then he MUST know that staying is worse. Also, whom did I think I was that I would save the ministry? If it were God’s ministry then he would be active in saving it. Seems he was active in exposing it so those little lambs might survive this huge assault on our calling. What a real attack – to attack a school where people went to become ministers. To teach those little lambs bleating for direction, that once taken under Moggie’s wing, you could really do all the sinful things the Bible clearly says is wrong – and somehow it is right. Mmmmm sounds like something done before….
It was described to me as a higher plane and only people who "could handle it" were invited to partake. Anyone who objected or reproved their behavior was considered someone who "stumbled" at their freedom in their walk with Christ. Therefore, there was no way to correct them; they exalted themselves as gods deciding what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 3:5).
I am ashamed that I bought it. I am ashamed that when God directed me with bells and whistles to leave – I stayed. I am sorry I am not 20 years further into the ACTUAL movement of God’s love than just finally recovering enough to feel I can help people find a forgotten Jesus. (Whether taken off track by TWI or not.) Jesus is the savior and not a tag along after a prayer.
“In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen”
Who is that Jesus and what does his being the Christ mean to me personally? These are things I am responsible to know and discover. The counterfeit is a long ride to nowhere or to someplace dark. I am tired of the abyss, there is light and boy when you begin to research others healing ministries and read the Bilbe clearly– well I found God is the God we were seeking.
I am sorry, I lost it in all the confusion. Praise God for seeing things now.
I don't know this man John Juedes but I am grateful for him.
Here's why:
I've posted a bit of this in other threads
In '76 I was WOW in State College,Pa. I was 17. It was my first time away from home.My branch coordinator was a 6th corps woman. Her story is posted on John's website. <A href="mailto:Messiah7@empirenet.com%20%20%20%20"Marsha's">Messiah7@empirenet.com "Marsha's story" I knew something quite upsetting had happened to her due to many sudden changes in her and countless meetings regarding her (meant to tame our curiosity and cover tracks ,i'm now sure). Talk about an ironclad veil of secrecy!! Clearly she was changed by something or someone. All this began with vp's visit to our town, and her visiting the motorcoach.we all thought it was a great honor for her. anyway, We were told she was possessed, this ,that and the other.Obviously, a really rough time for her, us too (much lesser degree)
fast forward
years later
out of twi
hearing tons of similar stories
thinking OMG, could that have been it ??
puttin pieces together, i sorta thought hmm i'll bet but never really knew
30 years later(yeah I know) THERE HER STORY IS, IN BLACK AND WHITE
why the story got to me in the way it did SO many years later I have no answer but it did
obviously she reached out to and trusted(which i'm sure was a big deal to her)this man John
thank god for him
as I said in another thread while reading her story my mouth literally dropped, I'm talkin' wipe up the drool and the whole thing lol
yay for her she obviously now has courage,strength,has reached out, moved up and on
GO MARSHA,GO MARSHA!!!!!!
SO, FOR ME THAT POSTING WAS HEALING
I have e-mailed John and thanked him privately but this thread seemed like a good place to tell you guys and express my support for him,publicly.Obviously he's been quite helpful to others. what it's all about!
Yes, thank you John and to all the God-loving people out there who have taken crap for exposing a dangerous cult named "TWI"
I was in PA when all that went on. I worked at the limb - we also heard Marsha was possessed by the same HARLOT - PIMP who later hurt me. I wondered what happened to her, until Ralph told me that the 3rd corps woman who set her up was the one who set me up.
I had heard that Marsha had committed suicide (the same thing THEY pushed me to do) So, I was so happy to read her letter -- just like you.
Did they tell you that Marsha was full of devils and those devils said bad things about leadership? That is what we were told, and I wanted to reach out to her, even though we were not friends, and was told she committed suicide. I forget every detail, but that is what I was told. Probably to keep her "truth" from getting out.
Then, I had a similar experience with the same woman - then VPW, and they did the same thing to me. I was expendable - just like Marsha.
If not for people like John Juedes my mind would still be in a prison. His sharings and his site helped me tremendously.
We have had people here defend VPW and say these girls did not have a gun to their heads. I tried to explain how young these girls were. I know State College is where VPW and Howard did their prowling and took many a teenage girl to their horrible sex parties and gave them drink when the young girls were looking for Jesus. You were only 17 and first year in college -- many girls your age were hit on by the old farts. I think as a parent these VPW defenders would at least soften as they look in the eyes of their own daughters, and realize it could have been them.
Anyway, I am getting off topic, but did you know the young WOW Marsha speaks of who was in the bed that day on the coach? She must have been pretty young. Not that age means much to me, to be deceived by a Moggie is horrible even if you are 30. But many think of his assaults as consentual sex (only cause the girls had reached 18 or more) and we have not diswayed them.
Charming spirits and many more. I remember a particular meeting where supposedly several spirits were cast out of her. although Marsha never spoke of it we were regularly told things about her "progress" if she would stay "on the field" or not etc. we felt she might disappear at any moment( her choice or not )we were all told that this was a problem SHE was having. she's weak,she's possessed. It was all laid on her. meanwhile she was our immediate corps leadership. we kinda went form feeling sorry and also being a lil afraid of her. I'm ashamed to say
I did know the girl you mention. "L......" She was a WOW also from the other family in town. She never spoke of it either. I just know she went with Marsha. As I recall it was her Birthday and that's why she was also invited out to the motorcoach. Again we thought it was a great honor for her. what a birthday present huh?
That is what they did to me when I went to expose that WOMAN leader. At the time, I did not know she was one of VPW's favorite "past times" that he was sharing with Howard.
I thought if I told VPW about what was going on he would fix it. I was invited into the coach and he wanted to know if I "swallowed"
He was naked.
I rejected the offer -- clumsy and frightened. Mrs. W came in and I took it as a reason to run out.
I knew then that that "harlot" was under his direction and all the weirdness was coming down from him.
Sunesis was friends with one of the big State College girls and has shared here that "that woman" was involved with the "sex" stuff as well. You probably know her - or know of her. Yes, like a stalking predator, VPW used State College as his private hunting grounds. It was close to Ohio...
Those poor girls. Were any of your WOW girls sent off to a "coach" meeting?
Oh, and the limb leaders (I LOVED) were giving reports on her, before I heard the suicide thing, that very male leader was up in State College and fondled a teenage girl (now a woman). Yet, he was giving us reports.
Then, I heard Marsha was so full of devils she killed herself. They were prob. trying to get her to kill herself. They tried it on me.
Were you getting reports fom K@th or P@ul? At that time I heard it from P@ul. If your reports were from K@th she was the very one setting Marsha up and sexually servicing VPW. Interesting, huh?
All lies.
Later, I was with the pimp woman up close and personal. But I already told you that.
It was like a child pedaphile at a grade school. He liked young teenage girls and State College was his stalking ground/ along with the Way Corps.
Anyway, EXW - I am glad John site helped you. He helped me so very much that "thank-you" pales to all the thankfulness I actually feel toward him and his kindnesses toward me.
How unconscionable the actions of these men towards young girls who were simply hungry to know God.
I find the deliberate defamation, the slandering and assault on these girls when it was feared that they might let their dirty little secret out... the deliberate attempt to drive them to suicide....so far from my understanding.
This was MORE than just a small moral problem of a christian who occasionally slips.....this is wholesale evil in my book.
Thank God for the people who speak up....for the people who finally shed light on this evil so that folks can know and understand that it wasn`t just me.
Let the testamonies on this thread be a reminder to all who read it, that VPW was not a well meaning Christian leader who "made some mistakes"...he was a scum bucket who was full of hypocracy and evil...
He treated young females with total disregard to satisfy his own devilish lusts...he was the shepard who f***ed his own sheep.
...and this is why I first came to Trancechat and then to Waydale and then to GreaseSpot...to expose this lowlife counterfeit.
Wierwille was a phoney in every regard...he stole the works of other people just to set up a front for himself to make money and lust after young girls...those of you who still regard him a a Christian minister...it would be wise to rethink you're opinion of him...he was neither a Christian or a minister...he was a monster.
I'm a PFAL grad and been to some twigs, but never was a bonifide leaf on the Way tree.
Dr. Juedes,
Did you take the PFAL class and attend a few functions for polemical purposes (i.e. for the purpose of acquainting yourself with an opponent) or were you actually at one time considering becoming involved with TWI?
This thread has become a little derailed by tales of sexual abuse. I believe those tales: too widespread over too much of a timespan. As well as which, I experienced my own rather more limited taster of the same.
I just wanted to know a little more about the man who has had a lot to say about TWI. John Juedes is clearly well respected by many who have posted here, people whose posts I have come to respect.
John:
I very much appreciate that you took the time to write a long response yourself. TWIers have heard so much from TWI criticizing other ministers/organizations/beliefs and I did not know if you were the same or someone of a different mould, out to help and not out for your own ends. Clearly from the comments on this thread, you are someone different. Thank you for your help to so many. May I buy you a drink in the Cafe?
I never met Dr. juedes but I am greatful to him and hope to meet him one day ( and hopefully a few others)I was doing reasearch on a book a sub-plot that then I found this site. I read a lot of things here and was I shocked. I was especially disturbed by the article written by catup about defeating you adversery to sum it that so-called course helps you take away your pain but takes away your instincts, this so called mark and avoid method is used to break up friends and even family. Then that newspaper article about martindale was forced resign under a sexual abuse. I got hook and joined up here.
Dr. Juedes, Did you take the PFAL class and attend a few functions for polemical purposes (i.e. for the purpose of acquainting yourself with an opponent) or were you actually at one time considering becoming involved with TWI?
Before I took the class I'd found PFAL book in a bookstore and read it. As you know, the book is roughly the first four (or so) sessions of the class nearly ver batim, so I had a general idea of what to expect in the class. No, I didn't consider becoming involved in TWI and was very pleased for my sake that they dropped the price back to $40 from $200. Although for others' sake it probably would have been good to keep it at $200 since I'm sure they reduced attendance..
A few things impressed me about the PFAL book. First, it had some basic stuff everybody in the world knew about (such as interpret a passage in its context- verse, paragrah, etc). Second, that most examples he used for the principles were exotic, since the real purpose was not to illustrate the principle, but to show how utterly fantastic VPW was that he alone along all the people in the world knew the true interpretation of many passages (like "why have you forsaken me"). Third, that portions were very sloppy. Fourth, that portuions were intentionally deceptive. Deception, sloppiness and implicit desire to show yourself as the One Source of Truth Today are all bad characteristics in teachers.
PS: I've also visited the home of VPW's "Pike's Peak Bible Seminary," an ordinary house on a hillside, and have a photo of it on our web site.
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exwaycorps
thanks Jane, Having a cup right now
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johnj
It's been interesting to hear y'all talking about me (John Juedes)... a little like overhearing a conversation about you gong on in the room next door.
Here's a few clarifications... Pawtucket was my PFAL class coordinator when I took PFAL back in about 1982. It's interesting that we met back then and end up being in the positions we are today. I'm a PFAL grad and been to some twigs, but never was a bonifide leaf on the Way tree. But I have been a few places... at a Palm Sun am service at the BRC with VPW presiding (where I got a photo of the TWI police car), treated to a fruit lunch at Emporia where they sang me a nice visitor song (back when people actually were pretty welcome at The Way), toured Gunnison with a Corps resident, seen the gas pumps (no snow), visited Rome City, and more recently was interrogated by a pseudo cop at New Knoxville (you're definitetly not welcome at The Way today). I've seen VPW a couple of times but never conversed with him.
My degrees are legit: a Masters of Divinity from Concordia Seminary St Louis and Doctor of Ministry at Fuller Seminary, Pasaena CA (Ministry and Divinity is the same thing under a different name-- it includes classes on Bible teaching, exegesis, church history, and practical ministry, with emphasis on ministry. Before starting seminary you have to take at least 2 years of Greek and 1 semester of Hebrew).They have both regional and ATS accreditation, which is above average for seminaries. While wayers look down on seminaries, they teach some very good things that keep you from falling into traps like those in TWI.
My first article on TWI was published in 1980. The articles at www.abouttheway.org make a serious effort to include facts and information, not just opinions as in a blog. I think that even most people who disagree with the conclusions at least acknowledge that there is a lot of information there, not just opinion. Sometimes I get hate mail telling me to be more loving. I think a good deal (not all) of that is an emotional reaction to the info on the site. When people see the info they're pushed to make a choice for or against TWI. To chose against TWI includes major Losses... people have to admit to themselves that a lot of what they devoted themselves to over the years is false, deception or damaging, and that teachers they idolized are in some cases plagiarists, sexual predators and manipulators. This is an emotionally taxing (sometimes devastating) change. To be sold out to TWI and then leave after seeing its errors is very gut-wrenching for many people.
I don't hate anyone in TWI, and don't have a vendetta against it. But I have heard from a lot of people who've been very much hurt and damaged by it, and hope our articles help heal them and help them make sense of the change, and keep others from being likewise injured. I've heard many more stories from people who were damaged byTWI in some way (including more instances of sexual abuse), but haven't published them (I consider all email to me private and only publish letters with explicit permission from the writers). Some of these directly confirm stories we have published. Others confirm the general thought that many TWI leaders hurt their followers in various ways. Sometimes I hear from people whose names everyone would recognize. (And probably have heard from some others who didn't sign their real names) It's especially heartening to hear when some of these not only have left TWI but have found satisfying and dynamic relationship with Jesus Christ outside TWI and its splinters.
Our web site is not meant to be a newspaper which presents both sides of a situation without taking a stand. It is meant to persuade people that TWI and its offshoots aren't healthy spiritual places to be. But we do try to present objective evidence for this, not just opinion or allegation to give readers reason for what we say. (People have made other allegations we haven't published.) Sometimes when I write an article I give "the other side" a chance to see it and respond before I publish it (for example, I forwarded my article on crisis in CES to some of the principals in the controversy before publishing, tho not all responded).
I actually don't spend much time on TWI, comparitively speaking. I'm the full time pastor of a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church (more conservative Biblically than some Lutheran bodies), and teach leadership classes for leaders from various nearby churches. But since I've been writing about TWI for 28 years, I have an accumulation of material and a historical perspective that is unusual. I intentionally don't teach Lutheranism on abouttheway.org but instead point ex-wayers to the core of the Christian faith (represented in the Nicene Creed which is accepted by all Christian churches around the world). My intent is to represent evangelical Christianity not Lutheranism nor "my" ministry.
John
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dmiller
Thank you. :)
For what you have done, not just for this post.
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Dot Matrix
John Juedes:
John Juedes saved my life via his walk with the TRUE God and his real love and kindness. I had my inner core of confidence pecked a way by VPW and his head harlot (aka pimp)
After Ralph D came out to stay with me -- much of what he said validated what I had done and believed in my heart about VPW and his harlot was true and not insanity as TWI tried to FORCE me to believe or direct me to suicide.
Then, I had a Bible I could not read as I only heard PFAL or VPW's thoughts when I would pick up the book. I would read the same area over and over with no light. Still weary and leery of traditional churches, I did not know how to shake myself of the layers of "wrongness" through which I desperately wanted to breathe free.
John Juedes tenderly wrote back and forth via emails. He reached out with a kind understanding hand and loved me with the great love of God. He understood how dirty I felt – even though I had not engaged in the sexual deviance offered to me by VPW and his harlot. I was confused as to how I could get so delivered by the PFAL class and placed in bondage by the teachings of the same man.
I found that VPW was a liar and a swindler – not by John’s words, but by his exposing the real VPW. He let me make a choice on the deception. Then, God graciously held my hand as I wrote a letter to John about all that went on with me “behind” the showmanship of the great Oz, oops VPW. And he posted it to help others – with my permission.
Then, I was ready to come and post here. I learned from people like Evan, Sunesis and others who had first hand knowledge of the inner circle. From there I studied BG Leonard and spoke with people who studied under him like Tim Sullivan… Had people pray for me and give me the sweet love of Jesus like Greek2me…. Glory to God!
Recently, in my still thirsty soul, I told God I wanted to get back to business. I had been Pentecostal prior to TWI. I had seen miracles and knew I had a call of service on me. Son of the Master appeared and he and his wife have been sharing stuff they have been researching while I was getting out of the painful, blinding hole I had fallen into.
I can only offer public thanks to John for being so gentle and kind to a dying sister in Christ and offer praise to a glorious God who did not leave me in the hole, but heard me and offered me steps I could handle to climb out.
Thanks to God and all of his people who truly love him.
And to those that continue to defend the wolf in sheep’s clothing, I offer my condolences. Nothing feels better than shedding the lies and clinging to the truth that a God who can mold clay and make man – loves you. HE loves you. He loves you. You do not have to rip your pants off to SERVICE a Moggie, you do not have to do sexual kneeling for anyone. You do not have to be picked apart, placed in a fear coma or have your family destroyed. That would be the devil with a happy bumper sticker and an alluring nametag telling you we knew more than most of the preachers out there today. That arrogance and sidetracking from Jesus is what allowed the devil to suck God out of our lives, or at least to be confused and hurt while we tried to cling to both God and TWI as they are not synonymous.
Thanks to all of you
edited for typos
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act2
God Bless you, Dot. You are one of a kind. I will always think highly of you and your life and integrity.
John, my nephew is currently attending Fuller Seminary in Pasadena, CA. His wife works at the Children's Hospital in LA. My nephew has a master's degree in education, but was lead to preach.
John, also, thank you for all you have done to open eyes of understanding for people, including me.
God bless you, too!!
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penguin
Awesome post Dot. It takes a lot of courage to leave twi--but even more to lay out your story so others can see a glimpse of hope.
I am so embarrassed by all those years that I thought twi was "IT." I have a closer relationship to God and Jesus Christ than I ever had in twi--and it is because of getting involved in a local church and talking to others here.
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Dot Matrix
I cannot tell you how embarrassed and ashamed I am of what I allowed in my life because of the confusion I had between a class that helped me and the man who taught it was hurting me.
I am ashamed before God that when he sounded the alarms to run away I did not listen. I have reasons. I wanted “to save” the ministry, I felt an allegiance due to some “good times” back in the beginning.
Truth: Any good was because God is huge and loves us in an enormous way. If God tells you to leave – then he MUST know that staying is worse. Also, whom did I think I was that I would save the ministry? If it were God’s ministry then he would be active in saving it. Seems he was active in exposing it so those little lambs might survive this huge assault on our calling. What a real attack – to attack a school where people went to become ministers. To teach those little lambs bleating for direction, that once taken under Moggie’s wing, you could really do all the sinful things the Bible clearly says is wrong – and somehow it is right. Mmmmm sounds like something done before….
It was described to me as a higher plane and only people who "could handle it" were invited to partake. Anyone who objected or reproved their behavior was considered someone who "stumbled" at their freedom in their walk with Christ. Therefore, there was no way to correct them; they exalted themselves as gods deciding what was right and what was wrong. (Genesis 3:5).
I am ashamed that I bought it. I am ashamed that when God directed me with bells and whistles to leave – I stayed. I am sorry I am not 20 years further into the ACTUAL movement of God’s love than just finally recovering enough to feel I can help people find a forgotten Jesus. (Whether taken off track by TWI or not.) Jesus is the savior and not a tag along after a prayer.
“In the name of Jesus Christ, Amen”
Who is that Jesus and what does his being the Christ mean to me personally? These are things I am responsible to know and discover. The counterfeit is a long ride to nowhere or to someplace dark. I am tired of the abyss, there is light and boy when you begin to research others healing ministries and read the Bilbe clearly– well I found God is the God we were seeking.
I am sorry, I lost it in all the confusion. Praise God for seeing things now.
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exwaycorps
I don't know this man John Juedes but I am grateful for him.
Here's why:
I've posted a bit of this in other threads
In '76 I was WOW in State College,Pa. I was 17. It was my first time away from home.My branch coordinator was a 6th corps woman. Her story is posted on John's website. <A href="mailto:Messiah7@empirenet.com%20%20%20%20"Marsha's">Messiah7@empirenet.com "Marsha's story" I knew something quite upsetting had happened to her due to many sudden changes in her and countless meetings regarding her (meant to tame our curiosity and cover tracks ,i'm now sure). Talk about an ironclad veil of secrecy!! Clearly she was changed by something or someone. All this began with vp's visit to our town, and her visiting the motorcoach.we all thought it was a great honor for her. anyway, We were told she was possessed, this ,that and the other.Obviously, a really rough time for her, us too (much lesser degree)
fast forward
years later
out of twi
hearing tons of similar stories
thinking OMG, could that have been it ??
puttin pieces together, i sorta thought hmm i'll bet but never really knew
30 years later(yeah I know) THERE HER STORY IS, IN BLACK AND WHITE
why the story got to me in the way it did SO many years later I have no answer but it did
obviously she reached out to and trusted(which i'm sure was a big deal to her)this man John
thank god for him
as I said in another thread while reading her story my mouth literally dropped, I'm talkin' wipe up the drool and the whole thing lol
yay for her she obviously now has courage,strength,has reached out, moved up and on
GO MARSHA,GO MARSHA!!!!!!
SO, FOR ME THAT POSTING WAS HEALING
I have e-mailed John and thanked him privately but this thread seemed like a good place to tell you guys and express my support for him,publicly.Obviously he's been quite helpful to others. what it's all about!
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Dot Matrix
Yes, thank you John and to all the God-loving people out there who have taken crap for exposing a dangerous cult named "TWI"
I was in PA when all that went on. I worked at the limb - we also heard Marsha was possessed by the same HARLOT - PIMP who later hurt me. I wondered what happened to her, until Ralph told me that the 3rd corps woman who set her up was the one who set me up.
I had heard that Marsha had committed suicide (the same thing THEY pushed me to do) So, I was so happy to read her letter -- just like you.
Glad she is alive and recovering!!!!
We prob. know each other. Let me send you a hug.
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exwaycorps
thanks for the hug Dot
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Dot Matrix
ExW
Did they tell you that Marsha was full of devils and those devils said bad things about leadership? That is what we were told, and I wanted to reach out to her, even though we were not friends, and was told she committed suicide. I forget every detail, but that is what I was told. Probably to keep her "truth" from getting out.
Then, I had a similar experience with the same woman - then VPW, and they did the same thing to me. I was expendable - just like Marsha.
If not for people like John Juedes my mind would still be in a prison. His sharings and his site helped me tremendously.
We have had people here defend VPW and say these girls did not have a gun to their heads. I tried to explain how young these girls were. I know State College is where VPW and Howard did their prowling and took many a teenage girl to their horrible sex parties and gave them drink when the young girls were looking for Jesus. You were only 17 and first year in college -- many girls your age were hit on by the old farts. I think as a parent these VPW defenders would at least soften as they look in the eyes of their own daughters, and realize it could have been them.
Anyway, I am getting off topic, but did you know the young WOW Marsha speaks of who was in the bed that day on the coach? She must have been pretty young. Not that age means much to me, to be deceived by a Moggie is horrible even if you are 30. But many think of his assaults as consentual sex (only cause the girls had reached 18 or more) and we have not diswayed them.
What do you recall?
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exwaycorps
Yes Dot. that's EXACTLY what we were told.
Charming spirits and many more. I remember a particular meeting where supposedly several spirits were cast out of her. although Marsha never spoke of it we were regularly told things about her "progress" if she would stay "on the field" or not etc. we felt she might disappear at any moment( her choice or not )we were all told that this was a problem SHE was having. she's weak,she's possessed. It was all laid on her. meanwhile she was our immediate corps leadership. we kinda went form feeling sorry and also being a lil afraid of her. I'm ashamed to say
I did know the girl you mention. "L......" She was a WOW also from the other family in town. She never spoke of it either. I just know she went with Marsha. As I recall it was her Birthday and that's why she was also invited out to the motorcoach. Again we thought it was a great honor for her. what a birthday present huh?
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Dot Matrix
That is what they did to me when I went to expose that WOMAN leader. At the time, I did not know she was one of VPW's favorite "past times" that he was sharing with Howard.
I thought if I told VPW about what was going on he would fix it. I was invited into the coach and he wanted to know if I "swallowed"
He was naked.
I rejected the offer -- clumsy and frightened. Mrs. W came in and I took it as a reason to run out.
I knew then that that "harlot" was under his direction and all the weirdness was coming down from him.
Sunesis was friends with one of the big State College girls and has shared here that "that woman" was involved with the "sex" stuff as well. You probably know her - or know of her. Yes, like a stalking predator, VPW used State College as his private hunting grounds. It was close to Ohio...
Those poor girls. Were any of your WOW girls sent off to a "coach" meeting?
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Dot Matrix
Oh, and the limb leaders (I LOVED) were giving reports on her, before I heard the suicide thing, that very male leader was up in State College and fondled a teenage girl (now a woman). Yet, he was giving us reports.
Then, I heard Marsha was so full of devils she killed herself. They were prob. trying to get her to kill herself. They tried it on me.
Were you getting reports fom K@th or P@ul? At that time I heard it from P@ul. If your reports were from K@th she was the very one setting Marsha up and sexually servicing VPW. Interesting, huh?
All lies.
Later, I was with the pimp woman up close and personal. But I already told you that.
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excathedra
even to this day, i'm sad they weren't just hunting pheasants
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Dot Matrix
It was like a child pedaphile at a grade school. He liked young teenage girls and State College was his stalking ground/ along with the Way Corps.
Anyway, EXW - I am glad John site helped you. He helped me so very much that "thank-you" pales to all the thankfulness I actually feel toward him and his kindnesses toward me.
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rascal
Gosh how heart breaking :(
How unconscionable the actions of these men towards young girls who were simply hungry to know God.
I find the deliberate defamation, the slandering and assault on these girls when it was feared that they might let their dirty little secret out... the deliberate attempt to drive them to suicide....so far from my understanding.
This was MORE than just a small moral problem of a christian who occasionally slips.....this is wholesale evil in my book.
Thank God for the people who speak up....for the people who finally shed light on this evil so that folks can know and understand that it wasn`t just me.
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doojable
How absolutely heartbreaking!
Dot - never ever doubt yourself! DO NOT FOR ONE SECOND DOUBT YOURSELF!
Here was a man that was supposed to be raising up other pastors and he was busy calling in more wolves....
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GrouchoMarxJr
Let the testamonies on this thread be a reminder to all who read it, that VPW was not a well meaning Christian leader who "made some mistakes"...he was a scum bucket who was full of hypocracy and evil...
He treated young females with total disregard to satisfy his own devilish lusts...he was the shepard who f***ed his own sheep.
...and this is why I first came to Trancechat and then to Waydale and then to GreaseSpot...to expose this lowlife counterfeit.
Wierwille was a phoney in every regard...he stole the works of other people just to set up a front for himself to make money and lust after young girls...those of you who still regard him a a Christian minister...it would be wise to rethink you're opinion of him...he was neither a Christian or a minister...he was a monster.
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Cynic
Dr. Juedes,
Did you take the PFAL class and attend a few functions for polemical purposes (i.e. for the purpose of acquainting yourself with an opponent) or were you actually at one time considering becoming involved with TWI?
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Dot Matrix
For those who do not know who Marsha is
http://www.empirenet.com/~messiah7/ltr_marsha.htm
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Twinky
This thread has become a little derailed by tales of sexual abuse. I believe those tales: too widespread over too much of a timespan. As well as which, I experienced my own rather more limited taster of the same.
I just wanted to know a little more about the man who has had a lot to say about TWI. John Juedes is clearly well respected by many who have posted here, people whose posts I have come to respect.
John:
I very much appreciate that you took the time to write a long response yourself. TWIers have heard so much from TWI criticizing other ministers/organizations/beliefs and I did not know if you were the same or someone of a different mould, out to help and not out for your own ends. Clearly from the comments on this thread, you are someone different. Thank you for your help to so many. May I buy you a drink in the Cafe?
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nyunknown
I never met Dr. juedes but I am greatful to him and hope to meet him one day ( and hopefully a few others)I was doing reasearch on a book a sub-plot that then I found this site. I read a lot of things here and was I shocked. I was especially disturbed by the article written by catup about defeating you adversery to sum it that so-called course helps you take away your pain but takes away your instincts, this so called mark and avoid method is used to break up friends and even family. Then that newspaper article about martindale was forced resign under a sexual abuse. I got hook and joined up here.
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johnj
Before I took the class I'd found PFAL book in a bookstore and read it. As you know, the book is roughly the first four (or so) sessions of the class nearly ver batim, so I had a general idea of what to expect in the class. No, I didn't consider becoming involved in TWI and was very pleased for my sake that they dropped the price back to $40 from $200. Although for others' sake it probably would have been good to keep it at $200 since I'm sure they reduced attendance..
A few things impressed me about the PFAL book. First, it had some basic stuff everybody in the world knew about (such as interpret a passage in its context- verse, paragrah, etc). Second, that most examples he used for the principles were exotic, since the real purpose was not to illustrate the principle, but to show how utterly fantastic VPW was that he alone along all the people in the world knew the true interpretation of many passages (like "why have you forsaken me"). Third, that portions were very sloppy. Fourth, that portuions were intentionally deceptive. Deception, sloppiness and implicit desire to show yourself as the One Source of Truth Today are all bad characteristics in teachers.
PS: I've also visited the home of VPW's "Pike's Peak Bible Seminary," an ordinary house on a hillside, and have a photo of it on our web site.
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