My take??? I think that we will never get it....I think the bible is a history book of sorts...a book of how God worked with a certain group of people within parameters that they could understand and accept. To try to apply it and it`s tennents to our civilazation today is quite limiting imo.
I think the *truths* that we hold so dear .... that a lot of the stories contained...creation, noah, etc could be an attempt at understanding phenomena with the mentality and understanding of people 5000 plus years ago.
I think God is not limited to their mentality and understanding as the paramters in which he is able to function...and that the way he addresses the people of 21st century might be entirely different.
What does it all boil down to?
Love God and love your neighbor is about the best I can come up with. The rest is all subject to speculation.
Perhaps the best way to view the "story" is to consider what Jesus himself said was the reason he was sent.
Luke 4:43 - And he said unto them, I must preach the kingdom of God to other cities also: for therefore am I sent.
Most Bible scholars agree that it was the main topic that he spoke of, but many disagree about what the Kingdom of God means. This is largely because they lost sight of the Hebrew roots of the Bible. If you were to follow the story in the OT, from the promises to Abraham, to the Old covenant with Moses, through the promise to David that a descendant of his would reign forever, and especially the Prophets who described what things would be like in that future age, and then realized that Jesus had all this in mind when he said that he was the promised Messiah, it makes for a more cohesive picture than most other interpretations of the Bible.
What are you speaking of here? And what future age?
The OT predicts a coming age when a descendent of David (the Messiah) would reign on God's behalf, on a renewed and perfect earth. Jesus, as well as John the Baptist, called this the Kingdom of God, and the followers of Jesus all preached this Kingdom. Oddly, most people hardly ever hear about it in church, but most Bible scholars recognize that it is the most often spoken of theme in Jesus' teachings.
Interestingly enough, it is because our earth isn't renewed and perfect that Jewish people do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, though many believe he was a great Rabbi.
Interestingly enough, it is because our earth isn't renewed and perfect that Jewish people do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, though many believe he was a great Rabbi.
Exactly, Abigail!
Many of the prophecies of the OT spoke of the Messiah coming and ruling, restoring the Kingdom to Israel. It would be on an earth that is free from the curse of sin (Isaiah talks about this a lot). The promise was originally to Abraham, and involved the land, and offspring, and even material blessings. Then the promise to David was specifically that a king would come from his offspring and would rule in righteousness. The Prophets expanded on that theme and spoke of the Messiah ruling the entire world with perfect, righteous judgment, because he would be empowered by God and would in fact be God's Son. Everything wrong with the world because of sin and man's selfish, wicked heart, would be made right.
As you say, the Jews expected the Messiah to establish this Kingdom and fulfill the promises, but he didn't at that time, which is why many of them rejected that he was the Messiah. What they didn't understand was that Jesus also had to accomplish something else in addition to proclaiming that the Kingom of God was at hand. There was still the issue of man's sin to deal with. He had to pay the price for our sins so that we could have entrance into that kingdom. And he taught his disciples that there would be a period of time during which the Kingdom would be in a hidden "seed" form. What he did NOT do, however, was to redefine the Kingdom as primarily a Kingdom in the heart instead of a literal Kingdom on earth.
Many Christians mistakenly believe that the idea of a literal, physical Kingdom on earth is too "Jewish" and too "carnal" - but this is in fact what Jesus and all his disciples proclaimed, and continued to proclaim throughout the book of Acts. There is a day of judgment coming, after which God's Kingdom, ruled perfectly by His Son, will be established on earth. And we who have accepted him in this day and age will have the privilege of ruling with him. That is the ultimate goal and focal point of all that Jesus preached, yet you hardly ever hear about it in most Christian churches. They refer to the Kingdom of God as "God's reign in your heart" and teach that we all go to either heaven or hell when we die. But Jesus never taught such a thing. He always preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, and he charged his disciples to preach the same Gospel. He taught us to pray, "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." I believe this is the overall theme of the entire Bible, and that many other things in the Bible become clear when viewed in light of this central theme.
Seems to me that there is something to see that is not being seen.
Jesus wasn't saying this to people who didn't know what the words of the scriptures are.
KJV: Mt 13:13
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
KJV: Mt 24:2
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
KJV: Mk 8:18
18Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
KJV: Jn 9:39
39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
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rascal
My take??? I think that we will never get it....I think the bible is a history book of sorts...a book of how God worked with a certain group of people within parameters that they could understand and accept. To try to apply it and it`s tennents to our civilazation today is quite limiting imo.
I think the *truths* that we hold so dear .... that a lot of the stories contained...creation, noah, etc could be an attempt at understanding phenomena with the mentality and understanding of people 5000 plus years ago.
I think God is not limited to their mentality and understanding as the paramters in which he is able to function...and that the way he addresses the people of 21st century might be entirely different.
What does it all boil down to?
Love God and love your neighbor is about the best I can come up with. The rest is all subject to speculation.
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cman
"Love God and love your neighbor"
Certainly a great way to live and give rascal.
Thanks.
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Mark Clarke
Perhaps the best way to view the "story" is to consider what Jesus himself said was the reason he was sent.
Most Bible scholars agree that it was the main topic that he spoke of, but many disagree about what the Kingdom of God means. This is largely because they lost sight of the Hebrew roots of the Bible. If you were to follow the story in the OT, from the promises to Abraham, to the Old covenant with Moses, through the promise to David that a descendant of his would reign forever, and especially the Prophets who described what things would be like in that future age, and then realized that Jesus had all this in mind when he said that he was the promised Messiah, it makes for a more cohesive picture than most other interpretations of the Bible.
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cman
Mark C,
What are you speaking of here? And what future age?
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Mark Clarke
The OT predicts a coming age when a descendent of David (the Messiah) would reign on God's behalf, on a renewed and perfect earth. Jesus, as well as John the Baptist, called this the Kingdom of God, and the followers of Jesus all preached this Kingdom. Oddly, most people hardly ever hear about it in church, but most Bible scholars recognize that it is the most often spoken of theme in Jesus' teachings.
Check out my site for more details:
http://www.godskingdomfirst.net/
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cman
That's a lot of gueessing about what people think, scholars or otherwise.
And please post the related info, not your whole website.
Which did not answer the questions, but gives one opinion of a perspective remotely related.
Please define your meanings of renewed and perfect and earth.
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Abigail
Interestingly enough, it is because our earth isn't renewed and perfect that Jewish people do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, though many believe he was a great Rabbi.
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Mark Clarke
Exactly, Abigail!
Many of the prophecies of the OT spoke of the Messiah coming and ruling, restoring the Kingdom to Israel. It would be on an earth that is free from the curse of sin (Isaiah talks about this a lot). The promise was originally to Abraham, and involved the land, and offspring, and even material blessings. Then the promise to David was specifically that a king would come from his offspring and would rule in righteousness. The Prophets expanded on that theme and spoke of the Messiah ruling the entire world with perfect, righteous judgment, because he would be empowered by God and would in fact be God's Son. Everything wrong with the world because of sin and man's selfish, wicked heart, would be made right.
As you say, the Jews expected the Messiah to establish this Kingdom and fulfill the promises, but he didn't at that time, which is why many of them rejected that he was the Messiah. What they didn't understand was that Jesus also had to accomplish something else in addition to proclaiming that the Kingom of God was at hand. There was still the issue of man's sin to deal with. He had to pay the price for our sins so that we could have entrance into that kingdom. And he taught his disciples that there would be a period of time during which the Kingdom would be in a hidden "seed" form. What he did NOT do, however, was to redefine the Kingdom as primarily a Kingdom in the heart instead of a literal Kingdom on earth.
Many Christians mistakenly believe that the idea of a literal, physical Kingdom on earth is too "Jewish" and too "carnal" - but this is in fact what Jesus and all his disciples proclaimed, and continued to proclaim throughout the book of Acts. There is a day of judgment coming, after which God's Kingdom, ruled perfectly by His Son, will be established on earth. And we who have accepted him in this day and age will have the privilege of ruling with him. That is the ultimate goal and focal point of all that Jesus preached, yet you hardly ever hear about it in most Christian churches. They refer to the Kingdom of God as "God's reign in your heart" and teach that we all go to either heaven or hell when we die. But Jesus never taught such a thing. He always preached the Gospel of the Kingdom of God, and he charged his disciples to preach the same Gospel. He taught us to pray, "Thy Kingdom come, Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven." I believe this is the overall theme of the entire Bible, and that many other things in the Bible become clear when viewed in light of this central theme.
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cman
I suppose this is a 'what you see with your eyes' type perspective Mark C.
Of which this thread did invite, many perspectives, not just one or two, there's more.
The earth being the planet and the heaven or heavens being that which isn't. That's one.
What if it meant something else also? In addition to, as in more info.
Expanding your 'sight' into seeing with new eyes and new perspectives.
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cman
Seems to me that there is something to see that is not being seen.
Jesus wasn't saying this to people who didn't know what the words of the scriptures are.
KJV: Mt 13:13
13Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
KJV: Mt 24:2
2And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.
KJV: Mk 8:18
18Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember?
KJV: Jn 9:39
39And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.
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