Rise & Expansion

[Larry N Moore]

I've been searching the Web in an attempt to find a critical examination of LCM's book "Rise & Expansion of the Church in the First Century". Anyone know where I might find an extensive look at this book?

[Kit Sober]

. . . or maybe it was never worth such a thing. (my opinion)

Edited June 16, 2007 by Kit Sober

[Larry N Moore]

. . . or maybe it was never worth such a thing. (my opinion)

Ya know Kit, I've participated on numerous discussion boards where an editing feature is not available. Personally I think it's a wonderful feature. ;)

I've seen many critical examinations of the various beliefs emanating from TWI. One of the foundations of its beliefs stem from its view of the Book of Acts of which LCM extensively explained in the book. I think, no matter what our personal opinion might be, the book had somewhat of an impact on formulating TWI members thinking. It probably won't interest most people to read an critical examination of the book but I just thought if anyone knew if such was taken this would be the place to ask.

[Eyesopen]

I think, no matter what our personal opinion might be, the book had somewhat of an impact on formulating TWI members thinking. It probably won't interest most people to read an critical examination of the book but I just thought if anyone knew if such was taken this would be the place to ask.

Really? I don't know about any "impact", perhaps after I had left it did. I never really thought about it, probably because I never read the book. Whatever...

So as far as a critical examination...I have never heard of one. But I don't own everything, so it is possible. Correct me if I am wrong, that particular book was done after they had cancelled or were going to cancel the Bible lands tours. And I believe they used the material from the tours as a basis for the book. I am not certain about this, perhaps someone that was at HQ or close to it at the time could give you more info. Anyway perhaps what you are looking for would be in that material?

[George Aar]

Well, I'll restrain my urge to give a smarta$$ reply for a moment and just say that, given Mr. Martindale's extensively demonstrated LACK of anything approaching scholarly ability,

I would tend to agree with Kit.

Any credentialed Biblical scholar would most likely dismiss LCM's "research" out of hand. How much time would you spend researching and critiquing a tomb penned by a Moonie, a Branch Dividian, or a People's Temple devotee? Unless you were specifically looking into that particular organization, probably not much. Moe, Larry, and Curly's names attached to a religious thesis probably wouldn't garner a lot of attention from serious theological critics and I think Mr. Martindale's name carries about equal clout.

Despite their rhetoric to the contrary, WayWorld's "research" was a pathetic joke. The vast majority of the teachings produced cute catch phrases at best (Mr. Martindale's in particular) and went out of their way to bolster WayDogma, but were well outside of anything even vaguely resembling a disciplined pursuit.

[Eyesopen]

Any credentialed Biblical scholar would most likely dismiss LCM's "research" out of hand. How much time would you spend researching and critiquing a tomb penned by a Moonie, a Branch Dividian, or a People's Temple devotee? Unless you were specifically looking into that particular organization, probably not much. Moe, Larry, and Curly's names attached to a religious thesis probably wouldn't garner a lot of attention from serious theological critics and I think Mr. Martindale's name carries about equal clout.

Can't say that I disagree with this opinion. But he asked a question so I just answered it as best I could.

[Larry N Moore]

Well, I'll restrain my urge to give a smarta$$ reply for a moment and just say that, given Mr. Martindale's extensively demonstrated LACK of anything approaching scholarly ability

Be that as it may, I'm able to find many critical examinations of most of VP's teachings on the web (this one being an example). And most of those are done to show how those teachings don't approach scholarly ability. I don't see why my bringing this subject up should solicit "smartass" replies. I'm not interested in defending LCM or his book. I just asked a simple question which I assumed someone here could answer. If my asking causes you to have an aggressive response -- so be it. I'm sure the topic won't cause too much of a ripple in this sea of tranquility we're floating on.

[ChasUFarley]

Question: What not procure a copy for yourself of eBay and make your own conclusions? (I am, of course, assuming you do not have a copy....)

-OR-

If you do have a copy, then what do you think of it? Maybe it's your calling (ahem) in life to write said critical examination of R&E....

Edited to add this:

It is mentioned in Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/L._Craig_Martindale

It is mentioned on Answers.com: http://www.answers.com/topic/l-craig-martindale

There's more about it here - probably closer to what you're looking for: http://www.pfo.org/closeway.htm

However, considering that TWI closed its bookstore to non-members, which obvously would limit the availability of the book, and considering no one who was an 'innie' could really write a critique - an honest one - and expect to remain an 'innie', I can safetly say that George's post and these details are probably the best explaination you will find for your lacking review of the book. I would be interested in one if you find it...

Edited June 16, 2007 by ChasUFarley

[Larry N Moore]

Question: What not procure a copy for yourself of eBay and make your own conclusions?

(I am, of course, assuming you do not have a copy....)

If you do have a copy, then what do you think of it? Maybe it's your calling (ahem) in life to write said critical examination of R&E....

Yes, I have a copy. And yes (if I were to re-examine it) I can make my own conclusions. However, it's always helpful to get the opinions of others, wouldn't you agree? If not, I would wonder why you and many others are doing here.

[George Aar]

I'm able to find many critical examinations of most of VP's teachings on the web (

Yeah, and why do you suppose the the Vickster gets more airtime? Maybe because he founded the cult? He certainly had more PR skills and charisma than Martindale.

But just what kind of "critical examinations" are those that you found? Are they really scholarly critiques from peer-reviewed journals and such, or are they "find out what the cultists are up to" sort of investigative reports? I'd think more likely the later, but...

Wierwille was pretty small potatoes cultwise, and attracted a little attention. Martindale was even smaller potatoes and attracted even less. Critically I would think his "work" would be regarded as simply the ravings of a buffoon, not much more...

[ChasUFarley]

Yes, I have a copy. And yes (if I were to re-examine it) I can make my own conclusions. However, it's always helpful to get the opinions of others, wouldn't you agree? If not, I would wonder why you and many others are doing here.

You are too quick to post sometimes. I was editing to add some links and additional insight for you when you posted your testy reply.

I perceive you are rather hostile to deal with and really wonder why you return since you seem so "above" the people who reply on your threads.

You are also very off in questioning my motives for being here. <_<

If you wish to talk about doctorine, there is a forum for that - this is not it and you are in the wrong place if you're expecting that here.

Edited June 16, 2007 by ChasUFarley

[waysider]

Well, Mr. M.

Perhaps you could initiate a critical examination of sorts(forum style) here at the Cafe.

An overview of the aforementioned might be a good launching point.

Maybe examine literary merit and style, etc. before sending it to the doctrinal discussions.

Just a thought.

[Larry N Moore]

You are too quick to post sometimes.

Sometimes.

I perceive you are rather hostile to deal with and really wonder why you return since you seem so "above" the people who reply on your threads.

:) I asked a simple question. If I knew it would get such a response I wouldn't have. Somehow I was under the mistaken notion that this was the place to come to get info about TWI. Not only about what they did, but what they taught and said.

You are also very off in questioning my motives for being here. <_<

I can question your motives all I want. If I'm mistaken, you can correct me all you want. Fair?

If you wish to talk about doctorine, there is a forum for that - this is not it and you are in the wrong place if you're expecting that here.

I don't want to talk about doctrine. If this forum isn't the appropriate forum to ask such questions then an Admin can move it to a more appropriate one.

Perhaps you could initiate a critical examination of sorts(forum style) here at the Cafe.

Read my lips. I'm not interested in debating, defending or otherwise LCM's book. I just want to know if someone here has come across any critical examination of it that I can LOOK at.

[ChasUFarley]

And I posted some input for you, if you go back and read my first post to you... and some links - like you said, there isn't much there.

good grief - wtf did I do wrong now?

You bring up a thread about a book that isn't often discussed around here - asking for a critical examiniation - something that would be written by a theologian, most likely, and then you verbally female-dog slap people who respond about it... what do you want? The responses aren't as smart-a$$'d as you're making them out to be - maybe it's not exactly what you're looking for BUT... they aren't that off.

Do you need a beer or something to lighten up? I'll gladly buy...

[Bolshevik]

I used to like that book and read it a number of times through. Then I put my thinking cap on and realized there are points of i dunno. . "twisted logic".

So I've put that book down.

[Larry N Moore]

And I posted some input for you, if you go back and read my first post to you... and some links - like you said, there isn't much there.

Prior to me asking the question I had already seen the info in the links you provided. They (as well as others) weren't very helpful and so I (perhaps mistakenly) thought someone here could help me out. I'm not demanding anyone should. It was just a simple request with no hidden agenda behind it to debate the topic.

good grief - wtf did I do wrong now?

Nothing, that I'm aware of.

You bring up a thread about a book that isn't often discussed around here

Like I said -- I wasn't interested in discussing the book here.

- asking for a critical examiniation - something that would be written by a theologian, most likely, and then you verbally female-dog slap people who respond about it... what do you want?

I want what I asked for. If no one here knows where I might find such info then so be it. It's really no big deal but, it seems to me that my having the audacity to even ask the question is a big deal to others.

The responses aren't as smart-a$$'d as you're making them out to be - maybe it's not exactly what you're looking for BUT... they aren't that off.

Look. It's very simple. If you don't know of where I might find the info I requested then you don't need to respond to the question. I don't know what it is about the question that is bothering some of you. If I had asked you if anyone knew where I might find a critical examination on VP's doctrinal teachings would you tell me where I might find it or make it an issue of me even asking the question?

Do you need a beer or something to lighten up? I'll gladly buy...

A rum and coke would be nice. :)

[ChasUFarley]

(Now I'm gonna assume you want that on the rocks...)

Larry - it's not your question that bothered me... it was your initial response. I think we've ironed that out and don't need to take it further.

[Larry N Moore]

Are you giving me the WHOLE bottle? If I didn't know better I might think you were trying to get me drunk. Not that I would object. ;)

[templelady]

Is the moon making us all wacky or just hypersensative?????

Larry asks a simple question about the existence or non-existence of a particular study

Then his motives are questioned as to why he would want to know.

The value of the study, if it exists, is questioned.

He is given some links which probably aren't exactly what he was looking for

Larry becomes frustrated, everyone else becomes frustrated, and the "slam fest" is on.

Having myself been guilty of the same kind of behavior here at GSC on more than one occassion, this is not an "I am better than the rest of you" observation. I am merely suggesting that perhaps all of us MYSELF especially, need to stop and think before we jump to conclusions about the motives of people posting unless the motive is clearly spelled out by the poster. Because sometimes knowledge is sought simply because, for whatever reason, our brain has formulated a question that just won't go away.

So let us cut each other some slack, OKAY

[dmiller]

I've been searching the Web in an attempt to find a critical examination of LCM's book "Rise & Expansion of the Church in the First Century". Anyone know where I might find an extensive look at this book?

I don't. But then again -- even though some of twi's stuff is analyzed and found on the web, it's usually docvic's stuff versus lcm's that you find. It's not a burning interest to me as to what others think (or say) about twi publications, but I have looked occassionally for various things.

I never read the book, though I did sit through the *class* with him teaching the Rise and Expansion (the eight great statements) a couple of times. I've still got the syllabus here with the notes I took, and though it's been a while since I've looked at it -- I have always considered it an interesting read.

Whether or not the *eight great statements* are true, it's intresting to see the correlation of the greek words used in specific areas there in Acts. Lcm isn't (imo) spewing *crap* (like he did with the original sin theory).

Again -- he may be right, he may be wrong.

As I said -- it's an interesting thing to think about.

Food for thought, something to chew on mentally.

:)

[Larry N Moore]

But then again -- even though some of twi's stuff is analyzed and found on the web, it's usually docvic's stuff versus lcm's that you find. It's not a burning interest to me as to what others think (or say) about twi publications, but I have looked occassionally for various things.

Yeah, well, it's not exactly a "burning" interest for me either. Just something that passed through my mind as I was thinking about some of the critique I've read concerning VP's doctrinal stuff found in his books. Most of them have been debunked but, I can't seem to find much on LCM's books -- but then I don't recall that he wrote very many of them.

Anyways, I didn't intend for this to turn into any -- how did templelady put it? -- "slap fest". And if it continued I probably would have requested one of the Admins locking the thread down. I suppose if anyone has any info on the matter they could simply PM it to me if they happen to read this thread.

[ChasUFarley]

With all due respect to Larry & Co. - I don't think the responses on this thread are that off...

True, no one had exactly what he was looking for - but that's what you get sometimes when you post the type of thread this happens to be... fishing for information sometimes leaves you with an empty hook, I'm afraid. I don't see where anyone was disrespectful or out of line. I believe mine & Larry's differences were ironed out but had there been more communication from both of us about expectations and results, then perhaps it would have gone better, no? C'est la vie.

[Out There]

Hey, I just clicked on the link to wikipedia that Chassy put on her early post and suddenly a picture of Craig was staring at at me. Now I spilled hot coffee on my lap and my desk. Now I am probably going to have nightmares from seeing such a terrible face. Thanks, Thanks alot. See if I ever click on one of your links again. You should have at least warned me that this was going to happen :wacko:

[dmiller]

Larry -- don't know if you've seen it or not, but David Anderson wrote a book about Acts

(copyrighted in 1989), and can be found in it's entirety on the web.

The title is The Two Ways Of The First Century Church.

He encourages folks to copy it from his site, if they want the book.

It's an interesting take on the book of acts. Click the title above, to get there.

P.S. -- David Anderson used to post here at GSC,

and (I think) was in the A/V department with twi

way back in the early days.

[Larry N Moore]

Larry -- don't know if you've seen it or not, but David Anderson wrote a book about Acts

(copyrighted in 1989), and can be found in it's entirety on the web.

The title is The Two Ways Of The First Century Church.

He encourages folks to copy it from his site, if they want the book.

It's an interesting take on the book of acts. Click the title above, to get there.

P.S. -- David Anderson used to post here at GSC,

and (I think) was in the A/V department with twi

way back in the early days.

Thanks dmiller. It does look interesting.