That believing thing was a two sided sword they used however they saw fit. When I approached leadership about Craig and what his buddies were apparently not doing I was given some excuse how God covers even if the believing is not there.
A theology that involves ignoring sin avoids making God’s ways our ways. It ignores that God’s ways are righteous. It ignores His sovereignty. This is the ultimate result of twi theology, an idol of knowledge that ignores both God and His ways.
Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Whether twi doctrine agrees with this or not, the fact remains that God does prove us by way of our choices. Perhaps this is the real meaning of our twi experience.
I was just sitting here thinking when I re-read this section of your post and it came to me that the theology of TWI did in fact de-throne God. God was not sovereign it was our believing that was supreme. Our believing could move mountains and tell God exactly where and what was going to happen at any given time.
Then I couldnt help but apply that verse to my life as I have been in doubt a bit lately. To be reminded that it is God that does the proving and not any man is very comforting. To know that we stand proved and approved before Him and Him alone by what is in our hearts and how we walk in Christ, is liberating. A wonderful person recently reminded me it is our responsibility to do good to all and give to God the injustices that are done. In this manner we serve Him. I think that keeping his ways first regardless of personal discomfort is walking in love. Something TWI didn't really teach. They talked about it but when put into practice they werent even "loving' to those that they knew were in the household.
This has been said here before I know but what good is knowledge if only kept captive inside your head. (oft times I don't make a question a question for you grammar police :P )
I have removed twi from my head so much that it feels odd to now consider them as I am. But they were walking contradictions at best. One day it was "study to show yourself approved" (sadly that was to them not God though) and then the next "many will never read the bible but they will read your life" (well, duh, you think so). All the while using things like "you are accountable for the bible you know" and then "hearers and not doers of the bible".
I swear it would have been easier had we had one of those calenders like we had in-rez where we had to mark off every morning that we had flossed. A calender that said today head knowledge is of the utmost and then the next day say the doing of it is paramount.
Yep, Kathy, all kinds of mental hoops to jump through. All kinds of things to get your life in order, believe for whatever, and then lcm starts the thing that once you’ve done all that you have to worry about the adversary stealing it. Then more formulas…jeez. God must have been laughing his arse off… “That’s more complicated than creation!!”
Took my son and his fiancée to the airport today. They are such a sweet couple. They each put the other first, and they are so compatible. I am glad my son has someone who loves him like that.
Eyes: I’m glad you liked the proving thing. VP messed up the Abraham situation offering his son. God really did that to prove Abraham. To be honest with you, for the first time since I left twi I feel a real peace about it. I really do believe God was proving me to see if I would choose Him or an idol. Guess what? I chose Him. This thread brought me to that point. It really is liberating to serve God just to do it with no complicated agenda. Even greater: putting God in His proper position in my mind. He is the LORD GOD. That’s simple. After that, most things fall into place easily.
I was just talking to my son on the phone (he lives in California) and he complimented me more than he realized when he said he'd always hurt inside watching me have to curb myself because it was frowned on when I spoke up and stood my ground. He said it was baffling how that ministry wanted yes men/women yet we were suppose to be able to defeat the world with our personal walks. What a world of mixed messages.
Ironically that all came up when I was telling him about this book that Abi lent me "Reading Lolita in Tehran" which he had heard of because he had seen "Azar Nafisi" on a Bill Mayer show and he was impressed with her greatly. But that conversation led us to how twi imposed oppression on women as well.
I know I just side tracked there but this whole subject keeps circling their contradictions, all based on what served them best at the moment and yet we were somehow suppose to understand what was the godly and acceptable way to live our lives. :wacko:
I was just reading “adultery vs soul stealing” thread. To be honest I couldn’t read much of it. God had no part in that. I really can’t put that in perspective. At all. Other than to say everyone’s life is different and you really can’t put a blanket statement “one shoe fits all” on everyone…I can only speak for myself and my own life.
Twi was one sick puppy and I’m glad we’re gone…I’m glad we have each other to work through it. I am glad for the way we support each other. I am glad for God’s justice.
Spiritual abuse isn’t funny. Sexual abuse isn’t funny. Sexual abuse of children is evil beyond description. These are terrible realities of twi, a monster creation of vp. If it were easy to put off, we wouldn’t still be here years later.
Kathy, there’s no grammar police here on this thread that I know of. If that were to occur, trust me, I’d get in the middle of it. Your thoughts and insights have great value to me and others. I personally enjoy hearing what you have to say, and from what I can see, you have a great heart. That is what matters…from your great heart words come that speak to mine. I agree with you that twi was confusing and contradicting. It was oppressive in many ways. Performance, performance, performance. And no amount of performance was enough. I enjoyed to hearing about your conversation with your son, I enjoy knowing who you are, and what’s on your mind.
I’ve been attending a small Presbyterian church the last few months. At first I really liked it. Lately they’ve been pushing tithing and service for all kinds of busyness. Not for me. I am looking for a different one…I just can’t do the performance thing anymore, and I can’t stand being a slave to the eyes of others. Multiple meetings per week, forget it. If I can come and go as I please OK. Otherwise, no.
I was just reading “adultery vs soul stealing” thread. To be honest I couldn’t read much of it. God had no part in that. I really can’t put that in perspective. At all. Other than to say everyone’s life is different and you really can’t put a blanket statement “one shoe fits all” on everyone…I can only speak for myself and my own life.
Twi was one sick puppy and I’m glad we’re gone…I’m glad we have each other to work through it. I am glad for the way we support each other. I am glad for God’s justice.
Spiritual abuse isn’t funny. Sexual abuse isn’t funny. Sexual abuse of children is evil beyond description. These are terrible realities of twi, a monster creation of vp. If it were easy to put off, we wouldn’t still be here years later.
Kathy, there’s no grammar police here on this thread that I know of. If that were to occur, trust me, I’d get in the middle of it. Your thoughts and insights have great value to me and others. I personally enjoy hearing what you have to say, and from what I can see, you have a great heart. That is what matters…from your great heart words come that speak to mine. I agree with you that twi was confusing and contradicting. It was oppressive in many ways. Performance, performance, performance. And no amount of performance was enough. I enjoyed to hearing about your conversation with your son, I enjoy knowing who you are, and what’s on your mind.
I’ve been attending a small Presbyterian church the last few months. At first I really liked it. Lately they’ve been pushing tithing and service for all kinds of busyness. Not for me. I am looking for a different one…I just can’t do the performance thing anymore, and I can’t stand being a slave to the eyes of others. Multiple meetings per week, forget it. If I can come and go as I please OK. Otherwise, no.
I don’t care about being profound. I am just me.
ASpot,
Speaking of a great heart....you certainly have one.
I have a church I'm comfortable with but I went to several here before finding this one. That is one thing I suspect we all have in common here and that is finding a place we are at ease with and walking away if not. One of a few common experiences I believe this group hold.
I hope Bramble doesn't mind my speaking of her but she and I have become pretty close since our posting to each other here and I've learned from her that I should be able to get my point across without being rude, as well, that we can see some things very differently and still enjoy each others company. ((Bramble))
I think that our extreme pasts have enabled us to not be as intimidated as some would wish us to (some=outside of here) and also to recognize what is not worth our getting upset about. We know what that small stuff is a little better now.
These freedoms to see into each others hearts and love one another regardless of agreeing or not wasn't familiar to me while with that group as easily. There were risks in loving others that didn't toe the line. And all under the guise of treating them the way we were for their own good. Like their sacred probation process.
ASpot, I think I agree with WW and Kathy. You are profound, have a great heart, easy to read, refreshingly honest, just plain loveable and you have the cutest little kitten avatars in the world! Thanks for starting this thread it has been quite enlightening.
So now that I'm done schmoozing (spelling nazis just stay away from that one!). Lets see if I have two cents in the couch cushions...
I think that you and Kathy have touched on something here that I hadn't considered. Involvement with a cult, especially one that was so powerful in so many ways changed our overall outlook on a great many things. I think that our experience was different than many cult survivors. Our cult was huge in comparison. It was not isolated to one geographic location or a limited number of people. TWI was a massive organization. Its leader was actually known by some really big names. We had no real reason as young people to doubt their dogma or to believe that they were a cult. Consequently the overall experience made us less tolerant of religious organizations having any control in our lives. Even the big groups hold no intimidation factor with the majority of ex wayfers. We've all been there done that and have tons of t-shirts to prove it!
So as we wander out into the world befuddled, scarred and determined we find ourselves still seeking a spot to call "home" or a nitch to fill. As we search for just the right place we investigate and discard numerous possibilities that before TWI would have been more than adequite but after TWI now seem tarnished or calloused or simply lacking. Where once we might have overlooked little doctrinal differences as just that; today we see them as glaring contradictions that we cannot stomach. We now have, like it or not a huge bible based repertoire of knowledge in our heads that we use, right or wrong to gage all other doctrines that we hear. We weigh them and balance them and if they are found wanting, we decided if we can live with less or if we keep searching.
I think that something that many here tend to forget or choose to ignore is that we weren't in TWI we were TWI. We gave it its strength of numbers, we gave it its head knowledge (corps research papers), we gave it its arrogance, we didnt do these things because we didnt want to do them. We were young and looking for something that would help us to make our mark. TWI offered the best of two worlds, to be big with both God and man at the same time and all you had to do was give away your soul and sear your conscience. And for a time all of us did it. We all stayed, we all continued to fellowship, we all continued to attend and run classes and witness and anything else they asked of us. It wasnt until the MOG, the man that we gave our lives to was found to be wanting did we say "No more" and leave. But upon our leaving (whether it was by choice or not) our departure deflated TWI because it lost most of what sustained it, the robotic numbers that were willing to exchange part of themselves to become the better robot.
ASpot, I think I agree with WW and Kathy. You are profound, have a great heart, easy to read, refreshingly honest, just plain loveable and you have the cutest little kitten avatars in the world! Thanks for starting this thread it has been quite enlightening.
So now that I'm done schmoozing (spelling nazis just stay away from that one!). Lets see if I have two cents in the couch cushions...
I think that you and Kathy have touched on something here that I hadn't considered. Involvement with a cult, especially one that was so powerful in so many ways changed our overall outlook on a great many things. I think that our experience was different than many cult survivors. Our cult was huge in comparison. It was not isolated to one geographic location or a limited number of people. TWI was a massive organization. Its leader was actually known by some really big names. We had no real reason as young people to doubt their dogma or to believe that they were a cult. Consequently the overall experience made us less tolerant of religious organizations having any control in our lives. Even the big groups hold no intimidation factor with the majority of ex wayfers. We've all been there done that and have tons of t-shirts to prove it!
So as we wander out into the world befuddled, scarred and determined we find ourselves still seeking a spot to call "home" or a nitch to fill. As we search for just the right place we investigate and discard numerous possibilities that before TWI would have been more than adaquite but after TWI now seem tarnished or calloused or simply lacking. Where once we might have overlooked little doctrinal differences as just that; today we see them as glaring contradictions that we cannot stomach. We now have, like it or not a huge bible based repetoir of knowledge in our heads that we use, right or wrong to gage all other doctrines that we hear. We weigh them and balance them and if they are found wanting, we decided if we can live with less or if we keep searching.
I think that something that many here tend to forget or choose to ignore is that we weren't in TWI we were TWI. We gave it its strength of numbers, we gave it its head knowledge (corps research papers), we gave it its arrogance, we didnt do these things because we didnt want to do them. We were young and looking for something that would help us to make our mark. TWI offered the best of two worlds, to be big with both God and man at the same time and all you had to do was give away your soul and sear your conscience. And for a time all of us did it. We all stayed, we all continued to fellowship, we all continued to attend and run classes and witness and anything else they asked of us. It wasnt until the MOG, the man that we gave our lives to was found to be wanting did we say "No more" and leave. But upon our leaving (whether it was by choice or not) our departure deflated TWI because it lost most of what sustained it, the robotic numbers that were willing to exchange part of themselves to become the better robot.
Ok...so I found a dollar in the cushions...
I had never thought of it that way--we WERE TWI. So true. We didn't just attend--we worked our minds and lives into TWI and became it.
Funny, I left a Presbyterian Church at one point because all of a sudden they wanted me to run this program--and the Pastor was thinking about starting a daycare, and could I help there too, with the set up? Totally freaked me out, the thought of devoting hours and hours in service. Yet, many non TWI folks I know devote hours to their church youth groups or summer camps or choirs etc and enjoy every second of it.
Hubby and I have a difficult time in any organized group. There's a gardening club we've thought about joining, but...
And Kathy--grammar nazis are just plain not welcome! Haven't we lived with enough nazi s? What good did it really do people, anyway? And you write just fine.
Eyes, I think you found more than a dollar! Still digesting it...
I'm with you Bramble. It isn't just the control I don't like. I can't bring myself to make a commitment to anyone but my family and friends, especially with regard to time and effort. I have NO idea why. I really don't.
And Kathy--grammar nazis are just plain not welcome! Haven't we lived with enough nazi s? What good did it really do people, anyway? And you write just fine.
...I have a church I'm comfortable with but I went to several here before finding this one. That is one thing I suspect we all have in common here and that is finding a place we are at ease with and walking away if not. One of a few common experiences I believe this group hold...
...I think that our extreme pasts have enabled us to not be as intimidated as some would wish us to (some=outside of here) and also to recognize what is not worth our getting upset about. We know what that small stuff is a little better now.
These freedoms to see into each others hearts and love one another regardless of agreeing or not wasn't familiar to me while with that group as easily. There were risks in loving others that didn't toe the line. And all under the guise of treating them the way we were for their own good. Like their sacred probation process.
Freedom is sweet.
Chatty, after thinking about Another Spot reconnecting with her son and your post – it's pitiful to think about one of the PFAL benefits listed on the back of the Green Card - develops more harmony in the home. Isn't that a crock! It was a legislated harmony – the ONLY reason everyone got along was that everyone agreed to TWI's knowledge [a.k.a. poison]. When someone didn't buy into their BS – then families split up, marriages split up, friends split up.
…GSC is an amazing, place isn't it?! What freedom! And what blows my mind is the unique harmony here. Yeah – I know we sometimes argue and fight – but what I notice is how people [each with a unique viewpoint] freely express themselves and are usually very accepting of others…
...Lets see if I have two cents in the couch cushions...
I think that you and Kathy have touched on something here that I hadn't considered. Involvement with a cult, especially one that was so powerful in so many ways changed our overall outlook on a great many things. I think that our experience was different than many cult survivors. Our cult was huge in comparison. It was not isolated to one geographic location or a limited number of people. TWI was a massive organization. Its leader was actually known by some really big names. We had no real reason as young people to doubt their dogma or to believe that they were a cult. Consequently the overall experience made us less tolerant of religious organizations having any control in our lives. Even the big groups hold no intimidation factor with the majority of ex wayfers. We've all been there done that and have tons of t-shirts to prove it!
So as we wander out into the world befuddled, scarred and determined we find ourselves still seeking a spot to call "home" or a nitch to fill. As we search for just the right place we investigate and discard numerous possibilities that before TWI would have been more than adequite but after TWI now seem tarnished or calloused or simply lacking. Where once we might have overlooked little doctrinal differences as just that; today we see them as glaring contradictions that we cannot stomach. We now have, like it or not a huge bible based repertoire of knowledge in our heads that we use, right or wrong to gage all other doctrines that we hear. We weigh them and balance them and if they are found wanting, we decided if we can live with less or if we keep searching.
I think that something that many here tend to forget or choose to ignore is that we weren't in TWI we were TWI. We gave it its strength of numbers, we gave it its head knowledge (corps research papers), we gave it its arrogance, we didnt do these things because we didnt want to do them. We were young and looking for something that would help us to make our mark. TWI offered the best of two worlds, to be big with both God and man at the same time and all you had to do was give away your soul and sear your conscience. And for a time all of us did it. We all stayed, we all continued to fellowship, we all continued to attend and run classes and witness and anything else they asked of us. It wasnt until the MOG, the man that we gave our lives to was found to be wanting did we say "No more" and leave. But upon our leaving (whether it was by choice or not) our departure deflated TWI because it lost most of what sustained it, the robotic numbers that were willing to exchange part of themselves to become the better robot.
Ok...so I found a dollar in the cushions...
WOW, Eyes Open!!!! Great stuff!!! So true...and you found all that in the couch cushions?
Eyes, I think you found more than a dollar! Still digesting it...
I'm with you Bramble. It isn't just the control I don't like. I can't bring myself to make a commitment to anyone but my family and friends, especially with regard to time and effort. I have NO idea why. I really don't.
Maybe if I scrounge around some more I can have Micky D's for lunch and get fat like the rest of America! Hehe
Ok so here's my opinion on the whole can't make a commitment thing. It's not the commitment, because you made one to your family. It's a commitment to an organization because in TWI making a "commitment" was akin to signing away your soul. It was for life, "never break a commitment to God!" But the hook was commiting yourself to twig three times a week, that's not hard, it was "fun" to see everyone and if you had a good coordinator then it was a blast. But then they asked "could you help set up for the branch or Limb meeting? or bring something for the BBQ afterwards?" Then it was "Have you thought of going WOW?" Then it was "Have you thought of the Corps? or Univ of Life or Pick your favorite...?"
The point is it all started with the little commitment of a bowl of potato salad on Sunday and became a lifelong commitment to der Vey. It was the ultimate Domino effect. The really sad thing is that we were the ones that did it, we are "they" and today we still group together sometimes based solely upon the group(s) that we were once in. This is not always a bad thing, because of the groups we were in we share similar memories and experiences so it is natural for us to want to talk abuot them. But sometimes we still think like we are still in that group...and we are not. We are grease spots now; all of us. TWI, what's left of it lingers in our memories and sometimes our actions. As much as we beat it down it rears its ugly head at times and spits obscenities at everyone. Just like it did when we were "in".
It makes me laugh when I read some posts where people claim to have "thrown away" their "Way brain" along with the books and stuff. But then in reading their posts it is obvious that they are merely denying its existance. It is true that some were more immersed than others but all of us were touched and became part of the "tree" of der Vey in one aspect or another.
Ok...I am so going to stop digging in the couch now...
…GSC is an amazing, place isn't it?! What freedom! And what blows my mind is the unique harmony here. Yeah – I know we sometimes argue and fight – but what I notice is how people [each with a unique viewpoint] freely express themselves and are usually very accepting of others…
And something I am learning of more and more and loving it!
The point is it all started with the little commitment of a bowl of potato salad on Sunday and became a lifelong commitment to der Vey. It was the ultimate Domino effect. The really sad thing is that we were the ones that did it, we are "they" and today we still group together sometimes based solely upon the group(s) that we were once in. This is not always a bad thing, because of the groups we were in we share similar memories and experiences so it is natural for us to want to talk abuot them. But sometimes we still think like we are still in that group...and we are not. We are grease spots now; all of us. TWI, what's left of it lingers in our memories and sometimes our actions. As much as we beat it down it rears its ugly head at times and spits obscenities at everyone. Just like it did when we were "in".
It makes me laugh when I read some posts where people claim to have "thrown away" their "Way brain" along with the books and stuff. But then in reading their posts it is obvious that they are merely denying its existance. It is true that some were more immersed than others but all of us were touched and became part of the "tree" of der Vey in one aspect or another.
Ok...I am so going to stop digging in the couch now...
I think some of that lays in the fact that not all waybrain is bad. Some of the things they taught were as right as the next group teaching it, they just happened to get a few things correctly.
“TWI offered the best of two worlds, to be big with both God and man at the same time and all you had to do was give away your soul and sear your conscience.”—Eyes.
It gave us an identity. One we thought was worth all the effort. At the same time there was enormous fear of leaving (get possessed etc). Upon leaving, well, we didn’t know who we were anymore. It wasn’t just the doctrine was false. It was necessary to rebuild and rediscover ourselves from the ground up. For me at least, all the way down to every thought that crosses my mind. Still: because I know I still have twi crap in my head…Out darn spot…
Yep, the harmony was false, so was “likeminded.” This way was the only way.
And the deeper I dig, the more bizarre it looks to me.
Eyes: your explanation about commitment really makes sense.
…GSC is an amazing, place isn't it?! What freedom! And what blows my mind is the unique harmony here. Yeah – I know we sometimes argue and fight – but what I notice is how people [each with a unique viewpoint] freely express themselves and are usually very accepting of others…
WOW, Eyes Open!!!! Great stuff!!! So true...and you found all that in the couch cushions?
So right T-Bone...GSC is an amazing place! And it is amazing because as you say we all can come here to argue and fight and freely express ourselves without having to make potato salad!
And yup I got all that out of the couch...darn nice couch...got it at a rummage sale for $10. But I had to put the change in the cushions myself...
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ChattyKathy
That believing thing was a two sided sword they used however they saw fit. When I approached leadership about Craig and what his buddies were apparently not doing I was given some excuse how God covers even if the believing is not there.
:wacko:
Alrighty then.....
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templelady
Nope, can't handle this thread just yet... at least not today.....too much in my head and heart......
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Eyesopen
I was just sitting here thinking when I re-read this section of your post and it came to me that the theology of TWI did in fact de-throne God. God was not sovereign it was our believing that was supreme. Our believing could move mountains and tell God exactly where and what was going to happen at any given time.
Then I couldnt help but apply that verse to my life as I have been in doubt a bit lately. To be reminded that it is God that does the proving and not any man is very comforting. To know that we stand proved and approved before Him and Him alone by what is in our hearts and how we walk in Christ, is liberating. A wonderful person recently reminded me it is our responsibility to do good to all and give to God the injustices that are done. In this manner we serve Him. I think that keeping his ways first regardless of personal discomfort is walking in love. Something TWI didn't really teach. They talked about it but when put into practice they werent even "loving' to those that they knew were in the household.
This is a cool thread!
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ChattyKathy
This has been said here before I know but what good is knowledge if only kept captive inside your head. (oft times I don't make a question a question for you grammar police :P )
I have removed twi from my head so much that it feels odd to now consider them as I am. But they were walking contradictions at best. One day it was "study to show yourself approved" (sadly that was to them not God though) and then the next "many will never read the bible but they will read your life" (well, duh, you think so). All the while using things like "you are accountable for the bible you know" and then "hearers and not doers of the bible".
I swear it would have been easier had we had one of those calenders like we had in-rez where we had to mark off every morning that we had flossed. A calender that said today head knowledge is of the utmost and then the next day say the doing of it is paramount.
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T-Bone
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ChattyKathy
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Eyesopen
As always the "cure" for the poison is so much more simple than the poison itself.
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another spot
Yep, Kathy, all kinds of mental hoops to jump through. All kinds of things to get your life in order, believe for whatever, and then lcm starts the thing that once you’ve done all that you have to worry about the adversary stealing it. Then more formulas…jeez. God must have been laughing his arse off… “That’s more complicated than creation!!”
Took my son and his fiancée to the airport today. They are such a sweet couple. They each put the other first, and they are so compatible. I am glad my son has someone who loves him like that.
Eyes: I’m glad you liked the proving thing. VP messed up the Abraham situation offering his son. God really did that to prove Abraham. To be honest with you, for the first time since I left twi I feel a real peace about it. I really do believe God was proving me to see if I would choose Him or an idol. Guess what? I chose Him. This thread brought me to that point. It really is liberating to serve God just to do it with no complicated agenda. Even greater: putting God in His proper position in my mind. He is the LORD GOD. That’s simple. After that, most things fall into place easily.
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ChattyKathy
I was just talking to my son on the phone (he lives in California) and he complimented me more than he realized when he said he'd always hurt inside watching me have to curb myself because it was frowned on when I spoke up and stood my ground. He said it was baffling how that ministry wanted yes men/women yet we were suppose to be able to defeat the world with our personal walks. What a world of mixed messages.
Ironically that all came up when I was telling him about this book that Abi lent me "Reading Lolita in Tehran" which he had heard of because he had seen "Azar Nafisi" on a Bill Mayer show and he was impressed with her greatly. But that conversation led us to how twi imposed oppression on women as well.
I know I just side tracked there but this whole subject keeps circling their contradictions, all based on what served them best at the moment and yet we were somehow suppose to understand what was the godly and acceptable way to live our lives. :wacko:
It feels good to be free don't it!
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another spot
I was just reading “adultery vs soul stealing” thread. To be honest I couldn’t read much of it. God had no part in that. I really can’t put that in perspective. At all. Other than to say everyone’s life is different and you really can’t put a blanket statement “one shoe fits all” on everyone…I can only speak for myself and my own life.
Twi was one sick puppy and I’m glad we’re gone…I’m glad we have each other to work through it. I am glad for the way we support each other. I am glad for God’s justice.
Spiritual abuse isn’t funny. Sexual abuse isn’t funny. Sexual abuse of children is evil beyond description. These are terrible realities of twi, a monster creation of vp. If it were easy to put off, we wouldn’t still be here years later.
Kathy, there’s no grammar police here on this thread that I know of. If that were to occur, trust me, I’d get in the middle of it. Your thoughts and insights have great value to me and others. I personally enjoy hearing what you have to say, and from what I can see, you have a great heart. That is what matters…from your great heart words come that speak to mine. I agree with you that twi was confusing and contradicting. It was oppressive in many ways. Performance, performance, performance. And no amount of performance was enough. I enjoyed to hearing about your conversation with your son, I enjoy knowing who you are, and what’s on your mind.
I’ve been attending a small Presbyterian church the last few months. At first I really liked it. Lately they’ve been pushing tithing and service for all kinds of busyness. Not for me. I am looking for a different one…I just can’t do the performance thing anymore, and I can’t stand being a slave to the eyes of others. Multiple meetings per week, forget it. If I can come and go as I please OK. Otherwise, no.
I don’t care about being profound. I am just me.
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WordWolf
That's plenty profound for me, thanks. :)
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ChattyKathy
ASpot,
Speaking of a great heart....you certainly have one.
I have a church I'm comfortable with but I went to several here before finding this one. That is one thing I suspect we all have in common here and that is finding a place we are at ease with and walking away if not. One of a few common experiences I believe this group hold.
I hope Bramble doesn't mind my speaking of her but she and I have become pretty close since our posting to each other here and I've learned from her that I should be able to get my point across without being rude, as well, that we can see some things very differently and still enjoy each others company. ((Bramble))
I think that our extreme pasts have enabled us to not be as intimidated as some would wish us to (some=outside of here) and also to recognize what is not worth our getting upset about. We know what that small stuff is a little better now.
These freedoms to see into each others hearts and love one another regardless of agreeing or not wasn't familiar to me while with that group as easily. There were risks in loving others that didn't toe the line. And all under the guise of treating them the way we were for their own good. Like their sacred probation process.
Freedom is sweet.
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another spot
Wordwolf: Well that was a nice thing to wake up to!!! :)
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Eyesopen
ASpot, I think I agree with WW and Kathy. You are profound, have a great heart, easy to read, refreshingly honest, just plain loveable and you have the cutest little kitten avatars in the world! Thanks for starting this thread it has been quite enlightening.
So now that I'm done schmoozing (spelling nazis just stay away from that one!). Lets see if I have two cents in the couch cushions...
I think that you and Kathy have touched on something here that I hadn't considered. Involvement with a cult, especially one that was so powerful in so many ways changed our overall outlook on a great many things. I think that our experience was different than many cult survivors. Our cult was huge in comparison. It was not isolated to one geographic location or a limited number of people. TWI was a massive organization. Its leader was actually known by some really big names. We had no real reason as young people to doubt their dogma or to believe that they were a cult. Consequently the overall experience made us less tolerant of religious organizations having any control in our lives. Even the big groups hold no intimidation factor with the majority of ex wayfers. We've all been there done that and have tons of t-shirts to prove it!
So as we wander out into the world befuddled, scarred and determined we find ourselves still seeking a spot to call "home" or a nitch to fill. As we search for just the right place we investigate and discard numerous possibilities that before TWI would have been more than adequite but after TWI now seem tarnished or calloused or simply lacking. Where once we might have overlooked little doctrinal differences as just that; today we see them as glaring contradictions that we cannot stomach. We now have, like it or not a huge bible based repertoire of knowledge in our heads that we use, right or wrong to gage all other doctrines that we hear. We weigh them and balance them and if they are found wanting, we decided if we can live with less or if we keep searching.
I think that something that many here tend to forget or choose to ignore is that we weren't in TWI we were TWI. We gave it its strength of numbers, we gave it its head knowledge (corps research papers), we gave it its arrogance, we didnt do these things because we didnt want to do them. We were young and looking for something that would help us to make our mark. TWI offered the best of two worlds, to be big with both God and man at the same time and all you had to do was give away your soul and sear your conscience. And for a time all of us did it. We all stayed, we all continued to fellowship, we all continued to attend and run classes and witness and anything else they asked of us. It wasnt until the MOG, the man that we gave our lives to was found to be wanting did we say "No more" and leave. But upon our leaving (whether it was by choice or not) our departure deflated TWI because it lost most of what sustained it, the robotic numbers that were willing to exchange part of themselves to become the better robot.
Ok...so I found a dollar in the cushions...
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ChattyKathy
You seriously rock!
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ChattyKathy
I also blew off going to church this morning and don't feel guilty about it at all.
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Bramble
I had never thought of it that way--we WERE TWI. So true. We didn't just attend--we worked our minds and lives into TWI and became it.
Funny, I left a Presbyterian Church at one point because all of a sudden they wanted me to run this program--and the Pastor was thinking about starting a daycare, and could I help there too, with the set up? Totally freaked me out, the thought of devoting hours and hours in service. Yet, many non TWI folks I know devote hours to their church youth groups or summer camps or choirs etc and enjoy every second of it.
Hubby and I have a difficult time in any organized group. There's a gardening club we've thought about joining, but...
And Kathy--grammar nazis are just plain not welcome! Haven't we lived with enough nazi s? What good did it really do people, anyway? And you write just fine.
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another spot
Eyes, I think you found more than a dollar! Still digesting it...
I'm with you Bramble. It isn't just the control I don't like. I can't bring myself to make a commitment to anyone but my family and friends, especially with regard to time and effort. I have NO idea why. I really don't.
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ChattyKathy
:wub:
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T-Bone
Chatty, after thinking about Another Spot reconnecting with her son and your post – it's pitiful to think about one of the PFAL benefits listed on the back of the Green Card - develops more harmony in the home. Isn't that a crock! It was a legislated harmony – the ONLY reason everyone got along was that everyone agreed to TWI's knowledge [a.k.a. poison]. When someone didn't buy into their BS – then families split up, marriages split up, friends split up.
…GSC is an amazing, place isn't it?! What freedom! And what blows my mind is the unique harmony here. Yeah – I know we sometimes argue and fight – but what I notice is how people [each with a unique viewpoint] freely express themselves and are usually very accepting of others…
WOW, Eyes Open!!!! Great stuff!!! So true...and you found all that in the couch cushions?
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Eyesopen
Maybe if I scrounge around some more I can have Micky D's for lunch and get fat like the rest of America! Hehe
Ok so here's my opinion on the whole can't make a commitment thing. It's not the commitment, because you made one to your family. It's a commitment to an organization because in TWI making a "commitment" was akin to signing away your soul. It was for life, "never break a commitment to God!" But the hook was commiting yourself to twig three times a week, that's not hard, it was "fun" to see everyone and if you had a good coordinator then it was a blast. But then they asked "could you help set up for the branch or Limb meeting? or bring something for the BBQ afterwards?" Then it was "Have you thought of going WOW?" Then it was "Have you thought of the Corps? or Univ of Life or Pick your favorite...?"
The point is it all started with the little commitment of a bowl of potato salad on Sunday and became a lifelong commitment to der Vey. It was the ultimate Domino effect. The really sad thing is that we were the ones that did it, we are "they" and today we still group together sometimes based solely upon the group(s) that we were once in. This is not always a bad thing, because of the groups we were in we share similar memories and experiences so it is natural for us to want to talk abuot them. But sometimes we still think like we are still in that group...and we are not. We are grease spots now; all of us. TWI, what's left of it lingers in our memories and sometimes our actions. As much as we beat it down it rears its ugly head at times and spits obscenities at everyone. Just like it did when we were "in".
It makes me laugh when I read some posts where people claim to have "thrown away" their "Way brain" along with the books and stuff. But then in reading their posts it is obvious that they are merely denying its existance. It is true that some were more immersed than others but all of us were touched and became part of the "tree" of der Vey in one aspect or another.
Ok...I am so going to stop digging in the couch now...
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ChattyKathy
And something I am learning of more and more and loving it!
I think some of that lays in the fact that not all waybrain is bad. Some of the things they taught were as right as the next group teaching it, they just happened to get a few things correctly.
And keep digging through that couch dear.
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another spot
“TWI offered the best of two worlds, to be big with both God and man at the same time and all you had to do was give away your soul and sear your conscience.”—Eyes.
It gave us an identity. One we thought was worth all the effort. At the same time there was enormous fear of leaving (get possessed etc). Upon leaving, well, we didn’t know who we were anymore. It wasn’t just the doctrine was false. It was necessary to rebuild and rediscover ourselves from the ground up. For me at least, all the way down to every thought that crosses my mind. Still: because I know I still have twi crap in my head…Out darn spot…
Yep, the harmony was false, so was “likeminded.” This way was the only way.
And the deeper I dig, the more bizarre it looks to me.
Eyes: your explanation about commitment really makes sense.
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Eyesopen
So right T-Bone...GSC is an amazing place! And it is amazing because as you say we all can come here to argue and fight and freely express ourselves without having to make potato salad!
And yup I got all that out of the couch...darn nice couch...got it at a rummage sale for $10. But I had to put the change in the cushions myself...
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