I think when folks talk about the old days of twi when there was love and better times oft times it was what you just said. They were so thrilled to be stripped of personal bondage and come to the place of knowing they were worthy of God's love that other things weren't always apparent.
My goodness I leave the thread for a couple of days and all of this wonderful stuff gets posted!
T-Bone that last paragraph with the picture analogy is priceless!
Kathy and Larry, I couldn't agree more on the idea that our "head knowledge" and TWI's drive to give us bigger heads certainly hindered our ability to love or express true enthusiasm born of love for pretty much anything that would involve interaction with others outside of TWI.
What do you think, is this gorging on "knowledge" cause the Pharisees and perhaps their religious counterparts throughout history cause them to forget "why" they wanted to serve God's people to begin with?
What do you think, is this gorging on "knowledge" cause the Pharisees and perhaps their religious counterparts throughout history cause them to forget "why" they wanted to serve God's people to begin with?
There will always be ulterior motives in some folks that say they chose to serve God and His people. Money and fame seems to be a couple. But not all can fit into that mold so some of those Pharisees had to have loved God and wanted to serve for the right reasons at the start. But legalism became their barometer and if someone walked outside of that in the freedom God intended they nailed them. What is sickening is the the good didn't overcome the bad, but it appears the opposite took place.
My youngest son is visiting me. He is 19. When he was twelve, his dad and I were m & a. Not long after I divorced his dad. His dad began a psychological campaign to convince him that he was better off with him. His dad made major money, I made minimum wage. I felt the best way to get my son back was to let him go. I absolutely do not have the vocabulary to describe the pain I went through.
Tonight, after seven years, I held him in my arms while he sobbed and sobbed. He knew he made the wrong decision. The guilt is eating him alive. I held him in my arms and told him how much I loved him. I told him it was ok and he is wonderful. He didn’t believe me. I told him I understood. I told him I forgive him and he needs to forgive himself. He continued to sob and sob. He said “he promised to take me fishing, and never did.” Meaning, his dad promised love and companionship and never delivered. I knew that would happen. My son now gets it I loved him and his dad never did. He clutched me, he told me over and over how sorry he was and how much he loved me. Gut wrenching sobs. The sorrow. It was terrible. What a night. His pain to me was so greater than my own....
I have three more days with him. I want to get through to him I love him so deeply. I want him to know he can’t skew up with me so much I don’t love him. I want him to forgive himself most of all. I write all this and it doesn’t begin to describe it. Not at all. If I were a great writer, maybe I could put it across...
This is love. Profoundly, deeply, I dunno. ppppmfffff.....knowledge fails here.
It's because knowledge can't compete with the depth of a mother's love and pain. And your words describe it well enough my heart is aching for you both and tears are falling down my face.
Forgiving ourselves is so much harder than forgiving another.
His releasing what to him must feel like shame is the best medicine you could have given him. I can't help but believe that huge step for you both will unveil a world of losses you both endured and bond you in a way nothing will ever sever.
This event in my life is deeply personal. It is also pivotal. It also goes to the core of the issue we’ve been talking about. Knowledge doesn’t provide good character or genuine love. Twi was a safe harbor for those who really didn’t care about God or the things of God. “I am righteous.” “I don’t stand approved before men.” “I’m not under law but grace.” Etc. They could hide behind the intellect. This is how people could be in twi, sexually abuse children, and teach twig on Sunday…
There were others of us who really did care about God. Knowledge lets us know about the God we love. But, like T-bone said, there has to be a heart response to it. Without it, all the knowledge in the world doesn’t do a thing.
It really hurt me profoundly that his dad put him in the position of choosing one parent over another. I knew someday this would really hurt my son. It really did. The good thing is he has a conscience. The good thing is he is sorry and said so. He will be OK now. He also cried and said how sorry he was for all the evil his dad did to me. He is sorry for siding with him. He gets it. He really will be OK. Now. And so will I.
My son is a good looking, highly intelligent (just barely missed National Merit Scholar), and very popular in college. He is vice-president of the second largest student organization on campus. He finished two years of college while in high school. I am glad he has all these things. I am more proud and more glad he has good character.
Kathy, T-bone, Cman: You are the greatest. Thanks for your love.
Your son has the best thing going for him in you. How wonderful that you can share his life now, and it be even better because he can see things more clearly now. And how fortunate no great harm came upon him in the process of learning. But your heart is now also able to be relieved of guilt you held that you probably didn't even fully recognize. You made the choice you did for your son. He sees that and now you and he have each other. How wonderful.
It's because knowledge can't compete with the depth of a mother's love and pain...
This event in my life is deeply personal. It is also pivotal. It also goes to the core of the issue we've been talking about. Knowledge doesn't provide good character or genuine love. Twi was a safe harbor for those who really didn't care about God or the things of God. "I am righteous." "I don't stand approved before men." "I'm not under law but grace." Etc. They could hide behind the intellect. This is how people could be in twi, sexually abuse children, and teach twig on Sunday….
So much…so much in your words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What is it when you mix TWI doctrine/mindset with men, anyway?!? True confession time – I've shared this before on other threads – how I put TWI's agenda before the needs of my family. Another Spot, I'm not excusing how your husband was to your son or trying to justify it – all I'm saying is I understand it.
Now I'm not claiming to be the world's most loving person – but I have come a long way from how I used to be in TWI – and I attribute a lot of that to my amazing wife Tonto – her patience, faith, LOVE, forgiveness, understanding, and personality were instrumental in drawing me out of TWI-induced dysfunctional social skills! If it wasn't for her during and for awhile after we left TWI, our kids wouldn't have known what it was like to really connect emotionally with a parent. Gosh – without the moms in TWI – in many ways that would be such an emotionless, loveless place…You know, as a TWIt I used to run something like a mental check-up, asking myself how I was doing on various Bible studies and PFAL principles. Yuck – I told you this was true confession time ! Now during moments of reflection I often ask myself how I'm doing on the two great commandments [Loving God and neighbor].
If I wanted to, I could start my own religion based on "Jesus wept." I could then supplement with verses about following Jesus, and then my followers would spend a great deal of time crying…(T-bone, I followed your cult, the least you could do is follow mine, lol).
...
This thread is tremendous, Another Spot – great posts by everyone!!!!! I love the twist and turns a thread takes. And I think it's interesting that in your first post I find a hint of where we are now. I know you were joking but think about this – you [a woman and mom] starting a cult over "Jesus wept." That shows me the wonderful empathetic desire of YOUR soul to connect to others! That's a beautiful thing . I think a typical guy would start a cult over Jesus snapping a whip and overturning tables in the temple .
ASpot...so much has already been said and I dont' feel the need to repeat it. You got him home, not just to a house but back into your arms and life. He was always in your heart but for a short time he strayed from your life and now returns. So beautiful, so warm, and so perfectly godly...this unconditional love is exactly what the love of God in Christ is all about. You and your son are living, breathing examples of how we should all be towards one and other in the body of Christ. Rejoyce my friend, it is always a day of rejoycing when a child returns home.
My youngest son is visiting me. He is 19. When he was twelve, his dad and I were m & a. Not long after I divorced his dad. His dad began a psychological campaign to convince him that he was better off with him. His dad made major money, I made minimum wage. I felt the best way to get my son back was to let him go. I absolutely do not have the vocabulary to describe the pain I went through.
Tonight, after seven years, I held him in my arms while he sobbed and sobbed. He knew he made the wrong decision. The guilt is eating him alive. I held him in my arms and told him how much I loved him. I told him it was ok and he is wonderful. He didn’t believe me. I told him I understood. I told him I forgive him and he needs to forgive himself. He continued to sob and sob. He said “he promised to take me fishing, and never did.” Meaning, his dad promised love and companionship and never delivered. I knew that would happen. My son now gets it I loved him and his dad never did. He clutched me, he told me over and over how sorry he was and how much he loved me. Gut wrenching sobs. The sorrow. It was terrible. What a night. His pain to me was so greater than my own....
I have three more days with him. I want to get through to him I love him so deeply. I want him to know he can’t skew up with me so much I don’t love him. I want him to forgive himself most of all. I write all this and it doesn’t begin to describe it. Not at all. If I were a great writer, maybe I could put it across...
This is love. Profoundly, deeply, I dunno. ppppmfffff.....knowledge fails here.
Words are not adequate to express my thoughts another spot. I'll just extend to you a great big HUG.
You guys…you’re going to have me sobbing in a minute…in fact you did bring tears to my eyes. You make my heart smile.
The situation where one parent uses the child to punish the other spouse is called Parental Alienation Syndrome. It is emotionally abusive to the child most of all. There is really only one way to stop it. Disengage. Whatever it takes. Don’t play victim. Don’t play. Then set a different example.
“I remember times (during the mid 70's) where I wished I knew less and loved more. It seemed the more I knew the less I loved people and for me that was one of the reasons why I chose to go out WOW. It was my prayer (and goal) that God would show me want I needed to love people more than I thought I was and should be. The "head-knowledge" just seemed to be getting in the way.”—Larry
This is really intriguing to me. I thought yesterday about the fact that love in twi was a formula, i.e. “the love of (or for) God in the renewed mind in manifestation.” The basic idea (if memory serves) was if you poked enough verses in your brain, you’d crank out love. It was a mental exercise. It was mechanical. The renewed mind process itself was mechanical. Believing was mechanical. Clear and concerned, blah, blah, blah. DWA was mechanical. This I think is the reason twi knowledge was “head knowledge.” Since all the basics were dealt with as a mental exercise, any one could do it (no matter what their hearts were like) and think they were “doing the Word.”
I went over the agape verses awhile back and basically got obedience from it. My gut feeling is I think I missed the point…I keep thinking about heart response. I remember agape was not supposed to be emotional. Why not?
1Sa 18:1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
2Sa 1:26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.
This was after Jonathan had died. This love must have been very powerful.
I even remember something about God not having emotions because He is spirit, so when the Bible says God is angry, it was a figure of speech. Mmmmm… God gave us emotions. He created us in his own image. I can think of no Biblical reason why God cannot have emotions. God so loved He gave His only begotten Son. He did this emotionlessly? How can I believe in my own heart that God loves me if I believe He has no emotions? It’s an intellectual exercise He does? Larry, you posted something about this somewhere. I am sure you can add something. I read it too fast and can't remember what you said. Or where.
What’s up with this? Is it possible twi skewed who God really is?
“To reduce the Christian experience to acquiring a bunch of Bible knowledge really puts a damper on God's influence. It would be like having a photograph of God and limiting our experience of Him to only that picture. The experience is all one-sided. The picture will not respond to us, it will not answer a question or a prayer. There's no commerce between hearts, no exchange of emotions. Not much of a relationship and no interactive process is possible. My Christianity is stale and limited to only my input…How different it is as we draw near to God, as we respond to Him and He to us.”—T-bone.
“To reduce the Christian experience to acquiring a bunch of Bible knowledge really puts a damper on God's influence. It would be like having a photograph of God and limiting our experience of Him to only that picture. The experience is all one-sided. The picture will not respond to us, it will not answer a question or a prayer. There's no commerce between hearts, no exchange of emotions. Not much of a relationship and no interactive process is possible. My Christianity is stale and limited to only my input…How different it is as we draw near to God, as we respond to Him and He to us.”—T-bone.
Exquisite.
Indeed...Exquisite! TWI tried to do just this..make God an object that responds to our "believing" like a car does to pressure on the gas pedal. God was a machine, something that gave His Son to die for us so that we could be more powerful than His Son was. God didnt do it because He loved us but so that we could "Know" that we know....They talked about love but didnt have to manifest it because they were "under grace". They talked about God but as ASpot said to get close to God or to do his will you had to be able to work the formulae and like some other religions if you didn't kneel at the right time or say the right thing "just so" then you had to start all over again, after you fixed what you messed up by not doing it right the first time. Wow what a vicous circle!
...1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.[/b]
This first verse was always taught out of context. If you consider context, and the fact there was no NT available yet, "truth" refers to the truth concerning Jesus and probably changes from the OT.
As a stand alone, it sounds like THE TRUTH, some all encompassing thing. Also, a big deal was made about knowledge (epignosis), ACCURATE truth. More bait.
Then there's this:
Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
This is another one taken out of context, again violating VP's own rule as if it applied to us. As a stand alone, it is a bit frightening. It leads one to believe the result of not getting enough knowledge will result in destruction. Here is the rest of the verse:
because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
The context is Israel walked completely away from God and began to practice idolatry. If you read the chapter, the problem was sin. They were practicing murder, ect. The lack of knowledge was specific (the Law that defined sin), as opposed to general. That's an important distinction, but one not made by twi. As we know, Jesus addressed the sin problem, and yes we are expected to avoid it, but to say in essence if we don't get enough knowledge (based on this verse) that we will get destroyed is baloney. More bait…
The concept of knowledge was seriously abused in twi. It was our savior. It was mysticized (sp?). It was perhaps an idol.
...TWI tried to do just this..make God an object that responds to our "believing" like a car does to pressure on the gas pedal. God was a machine, something that gave His Son to die for us so that we could be more powerful than His Son was. God didnt do it because He loved us but so that we could "Know" that we know....They talked about love but didnt have to manifest it because they were "under grace". They talked about God but as ASpot said to get close to God or to do his will you had to be able to work the formulae and like some other religions if you didn't kneel at the right time or say the right thing "just so" then you had to start all over again, after you fixed what you messed up by not doing it right the first time. Wow what a vicous circle!
Another Spot and Eyes Open – these posts are a very similar line of thinking - and GREAT posts I might add! I think the attraction of an idol has to be the sense of control that it gives a person. I remember in the class VPW talked about the law of believing and someone setting the time of his death – he goes on to say God would have to change all the laws of the universe NOT to accommodate you. That's a subtle reduction of God Almighty – in a sense, we think we're controlling Him by our believing.
To me it's obvious now - a lot of the hype of PFAL appealed to people's desire for power, control, fortune, etc. – it became a disguised idol. For me, owning up to idolatry was a tough pill to swallow. There was no FEAR of God in my life! I managed Him just fine through PFAL! Even if you set the erroneous doctrines aside – a person can make an idol out of anything – when it becomes the center of your life , an idol of the heart, your sense of power. It is a god created in our own image, designed to be easily managed by us.
What a poison it is - this particular idol of knowledge. What deluded thinking - that as we "mastered" PFAL stuff, we believed we gained mastery over anything that mattered. As Chatty said, "The more you think this stuff through the more it's a wonder any of us got out with any of our brains intact. What a bunch of numbnuts."
It's been said, 'knowledge is power.' Okay – I can see that – knowing key information [and I'm talking about reality here – not "the five things you have to know to receive anything from god" PFAL BS] can give you an advantage. There's another saying to consider along with that one - 'power corrupts.' …Hmmm, why does the Bible say knowledge puffs up? Perhaps the real deadly power of an idol is its ability to blind the idolater to its presence or true identity. Or that it can poison our attitudes, twist our motives and inflate our egos. I think an idol is perceived more as a means to an end than as an object of worship. It is a way to get what I want.
[Wow - I'm getting out of hand - will you look at how long this post is! I might as well quote entire books of the Bible ]
Isaiah 44:6-23 NIV
6 "This is what the LORD says—
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.
7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come—
yes, let him foretell what will come.
8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
9 All who make idols are nothing,
and the things they treasure are worthless.
Those who would speak up for them are blind;
they are ignorant, to their own shame.
10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol,
which can profit him nothing?
11 He and his kind will be put to shame;
craftsmen are nothing but men.
Let them all come together and take their stand;
they will be brought down to terror and infamy.
12 The blacksmith takes a tool
and works with it in the coals;
he shapes an idol with hammers,
he forges it with the might of his arm.
He gets hungry and loses his strength;
he drinks no water and grows faint.
13 The carpenter measures with a line
and makes an outline with a marker;
he roughs it out with chisels
and marks it with compasses.
He shapes it in the form of man,
of man in all his glory,
that it may dwell in a shrine.
14 He cut down cedars,
or perhaps took a cypress or oak.
He let it grow among the trees of the forest,
or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.
15 It is man's fuel for burning;
some of it he takes and warms himself,
he kindles a fire and bakes bread.
But he also fashions a god and worships it;
he makes an idol and bows down to it.
16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
over it he prepares his meal,
he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
He also warms himself and says,
"Ah! I am warm; I see the fire."
17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
he bows down to it and worships.
He prays to it and says,
"Save me; you are my god."
18 They know nothing, they understand nothing;
their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
and their minds closed so they cannot understand.
19 No one stops to think,
no one has the knowledge or understanding to say,
"Half of it I used for fuel;
I even baked bread over its coals,
I roasted meat and I ate.
Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left?
Shall I bow down to a block of wood?"
20 He feeds on ashes, a deluded heart misleads him;
he cannot save himself, or say,
"Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?"
21 "Remember these things, O Jacob,
for you are my servant, O Israel.
I have made you, you are my servant;
O Israel, I will not forget you.
22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,
your sins like the morning mist.
Return to me,
for I have redeemed you."
23 Sing for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done this;
shout aloud, O earth beneath.
Burst into song, you mountains,
you forests and all your trees,
for the LORD has redeemed Jacob,
he displays his glory in Israel.
Ezekiel 14:1-11 NIV
1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 3 "Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.'
6 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!
7 " 'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. 8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
9 " 'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. 10 They will bear their guilt—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. 11 Then the people of Israel will no longer stray from me, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "
What a poison it is - this particular idol of knowledge. What deluded thinking - that as we "mastered" PFAL stuff, we believed we gained mastery over anything that mattered. As Chatty said, "The more you think this stuff through the more it's a wonder any of us got out with any of our brains intact. What a bunch of numbnuts."
Perhaps the real deadly power of an idol is its ability to blind the idolater to its presence or true identity. Or that it can poison our attitudes, twist our motives and inflate our egos. I think an idol is perceived more as a means to an end than as an object of worship. It is a way to get what I want.
What an intiguing line of thought and an incredible statement T-Bone! I think that perhaps to some
"this particular idol of knowledge" is exactly as you propose a "means to an end" not an object of worship as we perceive worship. In TWI the more we mastered PFAL the more we knew exactly what to say to move up the ladder to gain more power.
The first chapter of Romans talks about what happens to believers when they leave the true God that they know and begin to worship false idols.
The record shows that when believers forget or neglect to thank God for what He has done for them their thoughts become unstable. They then turn the truth of God into a lie and begin to openly worship the creation more than the Creator. They adamantly profess that they are correct in all that they do and refuse to be told otherwise. Sound like "someone" you know?
It is hard to thank God for anything when you are too busy acquiring head knowledge. God is love, not knowledge. There is a great line in a song that I love "We're just here to learn to love Him" Once upon a time I would have adamantly disagreed with that statement. But today....maybe it isn't so wrong after all.
Both of you hit on eyeopeners for certain. And that saying they had which came from the bible (but still was abused) about being thankful for what you have which would assure you would get more now looks more like a bribe towards God. Geez!
It is interesting so many exwayfers turn to love God love your neighbor shortly after leaving twi…almost instinctively. The one thing we should have been doing, we weren’t. We just thought we were.
2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations (logismos), and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge (gnosis) of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Logismos is reasoning. Thayer’s gives: 2) a reasoning: such as is hostile to the Christian faith.
Seems to me this is what we are doing…
A theology that involves ignoring sin avoids making God’s ways our ways. It ignores that God’s ways are righteous. It ignores His sovereignty. This is the ultimate result of twi theology, an idol of knowledge that ignores both God and His ways.
Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deu 10:13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
Deu 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens [is] the LORD'S thy God, the earth [also], with all that therein [is].
I understand this is written to Israel, but the truth of it remains.
Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Whether twi doctrine agrees with this or not, the fact remains that God does prove us by way of our choices. Perhaps this is the real meaning of our twi experience.
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My goodness I leave the thread for a couple of days and all of this wonderful stuff gets posted!
T-Bone that last paragraph with the picture analogy is priceless!
Kathy and Larry, I couldn't agree more on the idea that our "head knowledge" and TWI's drive to give us bigger heads certainly hindered our ability to love or express true enthusiasm born of love for pretty much anything that would involve interaction with others outside of TWI.
What do you think, is this gorging on "knowledge" cause the Pharisees and perhaps their religious counterparts throughout history cause them to forget "why" they wanted to serve God's people to begin with?
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ChattyKathy
There will always be ulterior motives in some folks that say they chose to serve God and His people. Money and fame seems to be a couple. But not all can fit into that mold so some of those Pharisees had to have loved God and wanted to serve for the right reasons at the start. But legalism became their barometer and if someone walked outside of that in the freedom God intended they nailed them. What is sickening is the the good didn't overcome the bad, but it appears the opposite took place.
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another spot
My youngest son is visiting me. He is 19. When he was twelve, his dad and I were m & a. Not long after I divorced his dad. His dad began a psychological campaign to convince him that he was better off with him. His dad made major money, I made minimum wage. I felt the best way to get my son back was to let him go. I absolutely do not have the vocabulary to describe the pain I went through.
Tonight, after seven years, I held him in my arms while he sobbed and sobbed. He knew he made the wrong decision. The guilt is eating him alive. I held him in my arms and told him how much I loved him. I told him it was ok and he is wonderful. He didn’t believe me. I told him I understood. I told him I forgive him and he needs to forgive himself. He continued to sob and sob. He said “he promised to take me fishing, and never did.” Meaning, his dad promised love and companionship and never delivered. I knew that would happen. My son now gets it I loved him and his dad never did. He clutched me, he told me over and over how sorry he was and how much he loved me. Gut wrenching sobs. The sorrow. It was terrible. What a night. His pain to me was so greater than my own....
I have three more days with him. I want to get through to him I love him so deeply. I want him to know he can’t skew up with me so much I don’t love him. I want him to forgive himself most of all. I write all this and it doesn’t begin to describe it. Not at all. If I were a great writer, maybe I could put it across...
This is love. Profoundly, deeply, I dunno. ppppmfffff.....knowledge fails here.
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ChattyKathy
It's because knowledge can't compete with the depth of a mother's love and pain. And your words describe it well enough my heart is aching for you both and tears are falling down my face.
Forgiving ourselves is so much harder than forgiving another.
His releasing what to him must feel like shame is the best medicine you could have given him. I can't help but believe that huge step for you both will unveil a world of losses you both endured and bond you in a way nothing will ever sever.
(((((you both)))))
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T-Bone
(((((((Another Spot + Son Spot)))))))
Going by your post, it sounds like you both have made a lot of headway already!
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cman
knowledge will never accomplish godliness or anything profitable to you and others(same thing)
without selfcontrol, love, meekness, and a knowing of where the knowledge comes from
one can have knowledge yet screw it up because of lack of wisdom
though we have an ace in the hole
Jesus Christ who will set things right in his time
one can be schooled in electrical engineering for years
but until there is hands on experience with electrical plans and implantation
it's only knowledge without the wisdom to see it work
so it is with the knowledge of god, faith hope Christ
until it is seen it is only knowledge without wisdom
which is dangerously close to ignorance
and probably worse...
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another spot
This event in my life is deeply personal. It is also pivotal. It also goes to the core of the issue we’ve been talking about. Knowledge doesn’t provide good character or genuine love. Twi was a safe harbor for those who really didn’t care about God or the things of God. “I am righteous.” “I don’t stand approved before men.” “I’m not under law but grace.” Etc. They could hide behind the intellect. This is how people could be in twi, sexually abuse children, and teach twig on Sunday…
There were others of us who really did care about God. Knowledge lets us know about the God we love. But, like T-bone said, there has to be a heart response to it. Without it, all the knowledge in the world doesn’t do a thing.
It really hurt me profoundly that his dad put him in the position of choosing one parent over another. I knew someday this would really hurt my son. It really did. The good thing is he has a conscience. The good thing is he is sorry and said so. He will be OK now. He also cried and said how sorry he was for all the evil his dad did to me. He is sorry for siding with him. He gets it. He really will be OK. Now. And so will I.
My son is a good looking, highly intelligent (just barely missed National Merit Scholar), and very popular in college. He is vice-president of the second largest student organization on campus. He finished two years of college while in high school. I am glad he has all these things. I am more proud and more glad he has good character.
Kathy, T-bone, Cman: You are the greatest. Thanks for your love.
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ChattyKathy
Your son has the best thing going for him in you. How wonderful that you can share his life now, and it be even better because he can see things more clearly now. And how fortunate no great harm came upon him in the process of learning. But your heart is now also able to be relieved of guilt you held that you probably didn't even fully recognize. You made the choice you did for your son. He sees that and now you and he have each other. How wonderful.
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T-Bone
So much…so much in your words!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
What is it when you mix TWI doctrine/mindset with men, anyway?!? True confession time – I've shared this before on other threads – how I put TWI's agenda before the needs of my family. Another Spot, I'm not excusing how your husband was to your son or trying to justify it – all I'm saying is I understand it.
Now I'm not claiming to be the world's most loving person – but I have come a long way from how I used to be in TWI – and I attribute a lot of that to my amazing wife Tonto – her patience, faith, LOVE, forgiveness, understanding, and personality were instrumental in drawing me out of TWI-induced dysfunctional social skills! If it wasn't for her during and for awhile after we left TWI, our kids wouldn't have known what it was like to really connect emotionally with a parent. Gosh – without the moms in TWI – in many ways that would be such an emotionless, loveless place…You know, as a TWIt I used to run something like a mental check-up, asking myself how I was doing on various Bible studies and PFAL principles. Yuck – I told you this was true confession time
! Now during moments of reflection I often ask myself how I'm doing on the two great commandments [Loving God and neighbor].
This thread is tremendous, Another Spot – great posts by everyone!!!!! I love the twist and turns a thread takes. And I think it's interesting that in your first post I find a hint of where we are now. I know you were joking but think about this – you [a woman and mom] starting a cult over "Jesus wept." That shows me the wonderful empathetic desire of YOUR soul to connect to others! That's a beautiful thing
. I think a typical guy would start a cult over Jesus snapping a whip and overturning tables in the temple 
.
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ChattyKathy
Tonto found a good man in you T-Bone. :)
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Eyesopen
ASpot...so much has already been said and I dont' feel the need to repeat it. You got him home, not just to a house but back into your arms and life. He was always in your heart but for a short time he strayed from your life and now returns. So beautiful, so warm, and so perfectly godly...this unconditional love is exactly what the love of God in Christ is all about. You and your son are living, breathing examples of how we should all be towards one and other in the body of Christ. Rejoyce my friend, it is always a day of rejoycing when a child returns home.
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Larry N Moore
Words are not adequate to express my thoughts another spot. I'll just extend to you a great big HUG.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Great thread Another Spot. Not only is it very insightful, but also great compassion is shown with you at the forefront.
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another spot
You guys…you’re going to have me sobbing in a minute…in fact you did bring tears to my eyes. You make my heart smile.
The situation where one parent uses the child to punish the other spouse is called Parental Alienation Syndrome. It is emotionally abusive to the child most of all. There is really only one way to stop it. Disengage. Whatever it takes. Don’t play victim. Don’t play. Then set a different example.
________________________________________________________________________
“I remember times (during the mid 70's) where I wished I knew less and loved more. It seemed the more I knew the less I loved people and for me that was one of the reasons why I chose to go out WOW. It was my prayer (and goal) that God would show me want I needed to love people more than I thought I was and should be. The "head-knowledge" just seemed to be getting in the way.”—Larry
This is really intriguing to me. I thought yesterday about the fact that love in twi was a formula, i.e. “the love of (or for) God in the renewed mind in manifestation.” The basic idea (if memory serves) was if you poked enough verses in your brain, you’d crank out love. It was a mental exercise. It was mechanical. The renewed mind process itself was mechanical. Believing was mechanical. Clear and concerned, blah, blah, blah. DWA was mechanical. This I think is the reason twi knowledge was “head knowledge.” Since all the basics were dealt with as a mental exercise, any one could do it (no matter what their hearts were like) and think they were “doing the Word.”
I went over the agape verses awhile back and basically got obedience from it. My gut feeling is I think I missed the point…I keep thinking about heart response. I remember agape was not supposed to be emotional. Why not?
1Sa 18:1 And it came to pass, when he had made an end of speaking unto Saul, that the soul of Jonathan was knit with the soul of David, and Jonathan loved him as his own soul.
2Sa 1:26 I am distressed for thee, my brother Jonathan: very pleasant hast thou been unto me: thy love to me was wonderful, passing the love of women.
This was after Jonathan had died. This love must have been very powerful.
I even remember something about God not having emotions because He is spirit, so when the Bible says God is angry, it was a figure of speech. Mmmmm… God gave us emotions. He created us in his own image. I can think of no Biblical reason why God cannot have emotions. God so loved He gave His only begotten Son. He did this emotionlessly? How can I believe in my own heart that God loves me if I believe He has no emotions? It’s an intellectual exercise He does? Larry, you posted something about this somewhere. I am sure you can add something. I read it too fast and can't remember what you said. Or where.
What’s up with this? Is it possible twi skewed who God really is?
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ChattyKathy
Uh huh!
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another spot
“To reduce the Christian experience to acquiring a bunch of Bible knowledge really puts a damper on God's influence. It would be like having a photograph of God and limiting our experience of Him to only that picture. The experience is all one-sided. The picture will not respond to us, it will not answer a question or a prayer. There's no commerce between hearts, no exchange of emotions. Not much of a relationship and no interactive process is possible. My Christianity is stale and limited to only my input…How different it is as we draw near to God, as we respond to Him and He to us.”—T-bone.
Exquisite.
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Eyesopen
Indeed...Exquisite! TWI tried to do just this..make God an object that responds to our "believing" like a car does to pressure on the gas pedal. God was a machine, something that gave His Son to die for us so that we could be more powerful than His Son was. God didnt do it because He loved us but so that we could "Know" that we know....They talked about love but didnt have to manifest it because they were "under grace". They talked about God but as ASpot said to get close to God or to do his will you had to be able to work the formulae and like some other religions if you didn't kneel at the right time or say the right thing "just so" then you had to start all over again, after you fixed what you messed up by not doing it right the first time. Wow what a vicous circle!
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ChattyKathy
The more you think this stuff through the more it's a wonder any of us got out with any of our brains intact. What a bunch of numbnuts.
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T-Bone
Another Spot and Eyes Open – these posts are a very similar line of thinking - and GREAT posts I might add! I think the attraction of an idol has to be the sense of control that it gives a person. I remember in the class VPW talked about the law of believing and someone setting the time of his death – he goes on to say God would have to change all the laws of the universe NOT to accommodate you. That's a subtle reduction of God Almighty – in a sense, we think we're controlling Him by our believing.
To me it's obvious now - a lot of the hype of PFAL appealed to people's desire for power, control, fortune, etc. – it became a disguised idol. For me, owning up to idolatry was a tough pill to swallow. There was no FEAR of God in my life! I managed Him just fine through PFAL! Even if you set the erroneous doctrines aside – a person can make an idol out of anything – when it becomes the center of your life , an idol of the heart, your sense of power. It is a god created in our own image, designed to be easily managed by us.
What a poison it is - this particular idol of knowledge. What deluded thinking - that as we "mastered" PFAL stuff, we believed we gained mastery over anything that mattered. As Chatty said, "The more you think this stuff through the more it's a wonder any of us got out with any of our brains intact. What a bunch of numbnuts."
It's been said, 'knowledge is power.' Okay – I can see that – knowing key information [and I'm talking about reality here – not "the five things you have to know to receive anything from god" PFAL BS] can give you an advantage. There's another saying to consider along with that one - 'power corrupts.' …Hmmm, why does the Bible say knowledge puffs up? Perhaps the real deadly power of an idol is its ability to blind the idolater to its presence or true identity. Or that it can poison our attitudes, twist our motives and inflate our egos. I think an idol is perceived more as a means to an end than as an object of worship. It is a way to get what I want.
[Wow - I'm getting out of hand - will you look at how long this post is! I might as well quote entire books of the Bible
]
Isaiah 44:6-23 NIV
6 "This is what the LORD says—
Israel's King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last;
apart from me there is no God.
7 Who then is like me? Let him proclaim it.
Let him declare and lay out before me
what has happened since I established my ancient people,
and what is yet to come—
yes, let him foretell what will come.
8 Do not tremble, do not be afraid.
Did I not proclaim this and foretell it long ago?
You are my witnesses. Is there any God besides me?
No, there is no other Rock; I know not one."
9 All who make idols are nothing,
and the things they treasure are worthless.
Those who would speak up for them are blind;
they are ignorant, to their own shame.
10 Who shapes a god and casts an idol,
which can profit him nothing?
11 He and his kind will be put to shame;
craftsmen are nothing but men.
Let them all come together and take their stand;
they will be brought down to terror and infamy.
12 The blacksmith takes a tool
and works with it in the coals;
he shapes an idol with hammers,
he forges it with the might of his arm.
He gets hungry and loses his strength;
he drinks no water and grows faint.
13 The carpenter measures with a line
and makes an outline with a marker;
he roughs it out with chisels
and marks it with compasses.
He shapes it in the form of man,
of man in all his glory,
that it may dwell in a shrine.
14 He cut down cedars,
or perhaps took a cypress or oak.
He let it grow among the trees of the forest,
or planted a pine, and the rain made it grow.
15 It is man's fuel for burning;
some of it he takes and warms himself,
he kindles a fire and bakes bread.
But he also fashions a god and worships it;
he makes an idol and bows down to it.
16 Half of the wood he burns in the fire;
over it he prepares his meal,
he roasts his meat and eats his fill.
He also warms himself and says,
"Ah! I am warm; I see the fire."
17 From the rest he makes a god, his idol;
he bows down to it and worships.
He prays to it and says,
"Save me; you are my god."
18 They know nothing, they understand nothing;
their eyes are plastered over so they cannot see,
and their minds closed so they cannot understand.
19 No one stops to think,
no one has the knowledge or understanding to say,
"Half of it I used for fuel;
I even baked bread over its coals,
I roasted meat and I ate.
Shall I make a detestable thing from what is left?
Shall I bow down to a block of wood?"
20 He feeds on ashes, a deluded heart misleads him;
he cannot save himself, or say,
"Is not this thing in my right hand a lie?"
21 "Remember these things, O Jacob,
for you are my servant, O Israel.
I have made you, you are my servant;
O Israel, I will not forget you.
22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud,
your sins like the morning mist.
Return to me,
for I have redeemed you."
23 Sing for joy, O heavens, for the LORD has done this;
shout aloud, O earth beneath.
Burst into song, you mountains,
you forests and all your trees,
for the LORD has redeemed Jacob,
he displays his glory in Israel.
Ezekiel 14:1-11 NIV
1 Some of the elders of Israel came to me and sat down in front of me. 2 Then the word of the LORD came to me: 3 "Son of man, these men have set up idols in their hearts and put wicked stumbling blocks before their faces. Should I let them inquire of me at all? 4 Therefore speak to them and tell them, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When any Israelite sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet, I the LORD will answer him myself in keeping with his great idolatry. 5 I will do this to recapture the hearts of the people of Israel, who have all deserted me for their idols.'
6 "Therefore say to the house of Israel, 'This is what the Sovereign LORD says: Repent! Turn from your idols and renounce all your detestable practices!
7 " 'When any Israelite or any alien living in Israel separates himself from me and sets up idols in his heart and puts a wicked stumbling block before his face and then goes to a prophet to inquire of me, I the LORD will answer him myself. 8 I will set my face against that man and make him an example and a byword. I will cut him off from my people. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
9 " 'And if the prophet is enticed to utter a prophecy, I the LORD have enticed that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand against him and destroy him from among my people Israel. 10 They will bear their guilt—the prophet will be as guilty as the one who consults him. 11 Then the people of Israel will no longer stray from me, nor will they defile themselves anymore with all their sins. They will be my people, and I will be their God, declares the Sovereign LORD.' "
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Eyesopen
What an intiguing line of thought and an incredible statement T-Bone! I think that perhaps to some
"this particular idol of knowledge" is exactly as you propose a "means to an end" not an object of worship as we perceive worship. In TWI the more we mastered PFAL the more we knew exactly what to say to move up the ladder to gain more power.
The first chapter of Romans talks about what happens to believers when they leave the true God that they know and begin to worship false idols.
The record shows that when believers forget or neglect to thank God for what He has done for them their thoughts become unstable. They then turn the truth of God into a lie and begin to openly worship the creation more than the Creator. They adamantly profess that they are correct in all that they do and refuse to be told otherwise. Sound like "someone" you know?
It is hard to thank God for anything when you are too busy acquiring head knowledge. God is love, not knowledge. There is a great line in a song that I love "We're just here to learn to love Him" Once upon a time I would have adamantly disagreed with that statement. But today....maybe it isn't so wrong after all.
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ChattyKathy
Both of you hit on eyeopeners for certain. And that saying they had which came from the bible (but still was abused) about being thankful for what you have which would assure you would get more now looks more like a bribe towards God. Geez!
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Danny
Great Stuff here.
If I had to name the Idol it would be
Believing.
Just like was stated before if you put in enough bible then
you get desired results.
Those might have nothing to do with God might actually be
counter to him.
If i believe hard enough WOW believing hard.
Thats why it was so hard and things didn't work.
No peace no real love.
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Danny
let me clarify.
no real love in the that we had the
wrong knowledge.
believing doesn't cut it
or it cuts God out.
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another spot
Quite right, Danny.
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Good stuff!!!
It is interesting so many exwayfers turn to love God love your neighbor shortly after leaving twi…almost instinctively. The one thing we should have been doing, we weren’t. We just thought we were.
2Cr 10:5 Casting down imaginations (logismos), and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge (gnosis) of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;
Logismos is reasoning. Thayer’s gives: 2) a reasoning: such as is hostile to the Christian faith.
Seems to me this is what we are doing…
A theology that involves ignoring sin avoids making God’s ways our ways. It ignores that God’s ways are righteous. It ignores His sovereignty. This is the ultimate result of twi theology, an idol of knowledge that ignores both God and His ways.
Deu 10:12 And now, Israel, what doth the LORD thy God require of thee, but to fear the LORD thy God, to walk in all his ways, and to love him, and to serve the LORD thy God with all thy heart and with all thy soul,
Deu 10:13 To keep the commandments of the LORD, and his statutes, which I command thee this day for thy good?
Deu 10:14 Behold, the heaven and the heaven of heavens [is] the LORD'S thy God, the earth [also], with all that therein [is].
I understand this is written to Israel, but the truth of it remains.
Deu 13:3 Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Whether twi doctrine agrees with this or not, the fact remains that God does prove us by way of our choices. Perhaps this is the real meaning of our twi experience.
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