I think that the fact there are so many denominations is proof enough that the leadership is NOT doing IITim. 2:15, and a host of other things. The schisms are a direct result of the actions and decisions of leadership rather than “layman.” The one body is a gorgeous reality. On the other hand, the Bible does warn everyone about false prophets and teachers. The proof is in the pudding and discerning the difference is not simple, as we all know from being in twi. They will deceive even the elect.
Maybe the one body is one house with many rooms. God covered and continues to cover my human limitations and the limitations of others. If He can create the universe, He can probably figure out how to get me what I need to know when I need to know it, by whatever means He wants. Jesus is still the head of the Church regardless of what man does or doesn’t do.
The whole thing that got us into trouble with twi in the first place was trusting a man to teach correctly. The Berean’s were more noble than the ones in Thessalonica because they searched the Scriptures daily to see if what they were taught was correct. That I think is the safeguard. I choose not to limit God in my life concerning what I can or can’t know or how, no matter the circumstances of my life, religion, or any other criteria. I freely admit there is a lot I don’t know.
Man is just not perfect. Five minutes in a newspaper shows us that. What we can do is help each other and do the best we can. We can’t do any better than that. But God can.
I think that the fact there are so many denominations is proof enough that the leadership is NOT doing IITim. 2:15, and a host of other things. The schisms are a direct result of the actions and decisions of leadership rather than “layman.”
The whole thing that got us into trouble with twi in the first place was trusting a man to teach correctly. The Berean’s were more noble than the ones in Thessalonica because they searched the Scriptures daily to see if what they were taught was correct. That I think is the safeguard.
I cant agree with you more. And I think that Mark would also agree that it is the responsiblilty of the leadership in any "Church" organization to make certain that the needs of all are being met. If they are claiming to teach biblical doctrine then they are also responsible to ensure that what they teach is biblically accurate. It simply cannot be the opinions of men, no matter how holy or godly they might think that they are.
"The whole thing that got us into trouble with TWI in the first place was trusting a man to teach correctly." I love that line! And I submit that this idea of "trusting a man" is what has gotten mankind into trouble time and again in regards to religion. The admonition that Paul gave us was to follow in Christ's footsteps and to trust in God. We have not been told to follow in Paul's footsteps and to trust in man.
Hence the reason that we need to search the scriptures daily to see if these things may be so. Both leaders and laymen alike must search the scripture. We are all of us responsible to a great extent for our own walk with God. We need to search the scriptures to make certain that what we are being taught is in fact the Word of God and not the word of man with a shiny veneer. Because as ASpot pointed out spotting the counterfeits is not so easy as it may sound.
Just had to sneak in here to let Mark and Eyes know that their conversation is most interesting to follow. Thank you both!
So glad you could stop by Kathy dear. The last couple of posts have been a bit long. I am pleased that you would wade through them with us.
I love you dear sister!
I don't put the time I should into research like I use to so hesitate to add too much that comes off the top of my head. But I have things stored up there and they come out when I read things here and it expands my understanding. Not because I simply follow the words of posters like you and Mark who I was speaking of above but because once you've done some work for your own understanding it helps you recognize godly logic IMHO. Not that I'm so great, goodness no, but I do have a personal relationship with God and He blows my mind with how he provides things when I put in the littlest of efforts. It makes me think He must be so thrilled to have someone love and believe in Him (in this day and time) that He doesn't even hesitate to go beyond His written promises in our lives.
But that isn't exactly on point for this thread I know.
“Thus saith the Lord' and the mind shuts off everything else.
The worst hook and poison I know of.”—Cman
Good point.
Hi Kathy!!
Ok. I’ve been thinking…….
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
This first verse was always taught out of context. If you consider context, and the fact there was no NT available yet, “truth” refers to the truth concerning Jesus and probably changes from the OT.
As a stand alone, it sounds like THE TRUTH, some all encompassing thing. Also, a big deal was made about knowledge (epignosis), ACCURATE truth. More bait.
Then there’s this:
Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
This is another one taken out of context, again violating VP’s own rule as if it applied to us. As a stand alone, it is a bit frightening. It leads one to believe the result of not getting enough knowledge will result in destruction. Here is the rest of the verse:
because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
The context is Israel walked completely away from God and began to practice idolatry. If you read the chapter, the problem was sin. They were practicing murder, ect. The lack of knowledge was specific (the Law that defined sin), as opposed to general. That’s an important distinction, but one not made by twi. As we know, Jesus addressed the sin problem, and yes we are expected to avoid it, but to say in essence if we don’t get enough knowledge (based on this verse) that we will get destroyed is baloney. More bait…
The concept of knowledge was seriously abused in twi. It was our savior. It was mysticized (sp?). It was perhaps an idol.
PS. This opening verse indicates general knowledge of God.
Hsa 4:1 Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because [there is] no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.
They lacked general and specific knowledge. Nonetheless, this was an extreme situation. I still think taking it out of context is a distortion that leads to false conclusions because it doesn’t consider that salvation (as opposed to destruction) comes from Jesus (and that would of course include a knowledge of him).
Hi, just wanted to wave in passing and thank you for having given me much food for thought. I am trying to catch up with the thread since returning from our vacation. I never thought of 1&2 Timothy in that light. I'll be back as soon as I have something relevant to say.
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
This first verse was always taught out of context. If you consider context, and the fact there was no NT available yet, “truth” refers to the truth concerning Jesus and probably changes from the OT.
As a stand alone, it sounds like THE TRUTH, some all encompassing thing. Also, a big deal was made about knowledge (epignosis), ACCURATE truth. More bait.
Then there’s this:
Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
This is another one taken out of context, again violating VP’s own rule as if it applied to us. As a stand alone, it is a bit frightening. It leads one to believe the result of not getting enough knowledge will result in destruction. Here is the rest of the verse:
because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
The context is Israel walked completely away from God and began to practice idolatry. If you read the chapter, the problem was sin. They were practicing murder, ect. The lack of knowledge was specific (the Law that defined sin), as opposed to general. That’s an important distinction, but one not made by twi. As we know, Jesus addressed the sin problem, and yes we are expected to avoid it, but to say in essence if we don’t get enough knowledge (based on this verse) that we will get destroyed is baloney. More bait…
The concept of knowledge was seriously abused in twi. It was our savior. It was mysticized (sp?). It was perhaps an idol.
Gosh, you laid it out so clearly and that makes so much sense. TWI kept us in bondage to head knowledge and the lure they had "it" and no one else did so if we left it we'd actually wondered if we'd be able to find anything to sustain our thinking. But IMHO they just kept us all busy in our head so we'd not have the freedom to see they were not living what they were researching and sharing.
And there are scriptures to back up what they were doing as head knowledge puffs us up.
Plus they by far had "it".
(Sorry ASpot but I'm trying to listen to the podcast of last night while thinking and posting to you and it's not conducive and I need to ready for work now)
There is a balance aint' there but I'd rather only know a few verses and cleave to them than know the whole bible and do none of them. Even the Devil can quote the bible so that doesn't impress me much IMHO. (this is not to you personally of course)
What I can't wrap my head around and suspect I never will be able to is folks that just toss God into the trash because of experiences. But then I don't have to worry for their walk, only my own.
You have some interesting points, it was nice chatting with you.
There is a balance aint' there but I'd rather only know a few verses and cleave to them than know the whole bible and do none of them. Even the Devil can quote the bible so that doesn't impress me much IMHO. (this is not to you personally of course)
What I can't wrap my head around and suspect I never will be able to is folks that just toss God into the trash because of experiences. But then I don't have to worry for their walk, only my own.
You have some interesting points, it was nice chatting with you.
Kathy
Kathy,
I think you might find, if you talked to such people, that few adults blithely toss out beliefs. It is more a process of questioning, concluding, reaching for different views and experiences. It may be a painful process, as in 'dark night of the soul.'
'Tossing God in the trash' make it seem as though it was a simple process followed by a drunkfest or something.
Not everyone has had your experiences with your God.
Though, I have to say, as a young person in TWI, I and many others easily tossed away the beliefs we'd been raised with...but I think much of that was a part of the natural rebellion of late adolescence.
I think you might find, if you talked to such people, that few adults blithely toss out beliefs. It is more a process of questioning, concluding, reaching for different views and experiences. It may be a painful process, as in 'dark night of the soul.'
'Tossing God in the trash' make it seem as though it was a simple process followed by a drunkfest or something.
Not everyone has had your experiences with your God.
Though, I have to say, as a young person in TWI, I and many others easily tossed away the beliefs we'd been raised with...but I think much of that was a part of the natural rebellion of late adolescence.
I have had experiences on both sides, the side of heaven and of h3ll, and yet I've not chosen to blame or toss God away as others have. If I had no experience in which to consider others actions against, not to say mine were worse, simply to say they existed, then I don't feel I could even throw out my .02 worth. But when I have lived through the fire and still didn't turn my back on God I know that anyone else could have done the same. And I suspect it is that proof in my own life that fuels me to notice others walking away. And why I can't get there for myself personally because I know for me had I walked away I would not be alive today.
But then it still comes to what you want to do in your life and I will always believe in that saying "a man changed against his will is of the same opinion still".
No doubt someone can find holes in my reasoning and that is our/their right to do so. But for me I won't be walking away from God.
The concept of knowledge was seriously abused in twi. It was our savior. It was mysticized... It was perhaps an idol.
...TWI kept us in bondage to head knowledge and the lure they had "it" and no one else did so if we left it we'd actually wondered if we'd be able to find anything to sustain our thinking. But IMHO they just kept us all busy in our head so we'd not have the freedom to see they were not living what they were researching and sharing.
And there are scriptures to back up what they were doing as head knowledge puffs us up...
Excellent points, Another Spot and Chatty Kathy!!!!!!!!! I think for most folks at TWI – knowledge was the main focus. In my opinion, this obsession with knowledge was so strong that people tended to become shortsighted – getting hung up in the technical details of the foreground [the Bible – and only a portion of the Bible at that – the church epistles] with little regard for the bigger picture or a relationship with the Savior. That "busy work" was enough to quell any desire for something of substance or awareness that we lacked a relationship with Christ. There I was thinking I had it all...I'm tapped in...and really it was quite the opposite - something REALLY BIG WAS MISSING in my life...Christ!
Your posts brought some passages to mind – very similar situations – where Jesus spoke of religious leaders more concerned for the technical details of the ceremonial law than for the weightier matters of the moral law; and of Paul's change of focus – from being a legalistic zealot to pursuing a greater relationship with Christ.
Luke 11:37-52 NIV
37When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38But the Pharisee, noticing that Jesus did not first wash before the meal, was surprised.
39Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41But give what is inside the dish [j] to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.
42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
43"Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces.
44"Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it."
45One of the experts in the law answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also."
46Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
47"Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. 48So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
52"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."
Philippians 3:2-10 NIV
2Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death…
Excellent scripture T-Bone, and can it say it any clearer!
When I was at HQ it was like we lived in a world of our own. Most had been on the field and knew that life was hard out there yet once they got in the compound of thinking being fed to them (myself included) they began to think we're not neglecting all else but rather we're so spiritually mature that we're taking it all in and placing it in it's nice little rooms, oh how clever we were indeed. When the truth of the matter was we were living in a cocoon never to emerge into the butterfly we were promised we would become. The walk of freedom we would have when others stumbled around us. All the things that were to make us so right and all else so wrong never materialized. And in time we stopped asking for them to and never seemed to notice it.
Head knowledge and attention to details that had nothing to do with life and living.
I have now spoken with a few people that I never dreamed could get pass the "where do you go from here when you had all the rightly divided word" thinking that have found churches that aren't perfect, none are, yet have enough substance to them that they have found a spiritual home that satisfies their longings. And IMHO it takes removing yourself from twi to allow yourself to freely receive and see that that group has no market on accuracy. In fact they are way off on freedom since legalism keeps their ship on target. Even though RFR said they were going to turn that ship around, and how long it would take to do so, they only fancied up the window dressing but the locks on the cabin doors were not changed.
Yet while in their fold I believed I had something worth enduring what I endured to have. How else would generally healthy minded folks continue to allow themselves to be horsewhipped into compliance with the guise of spiritual superiority.
I guess I mistook your comment on not have had my experiences then. And you can take what I say however you wish to. But blaming God for man being a @ ss and then making statements that you don't trust him and he is not a part of your life is said here in this forum daily. And it hurts my soul that loves God regardless of what men have done to me. If that bothers you then I guess we're even.
Forum should have been site as this forum is not where I read some of the things I do.
And Bramble obviously you have a problem with me and have for awhile so in light of that I will endeavor to be more clear the first time when posting where you might be reading.
T-bone, we talked about legalism and knowledge earlier in this thread, but oddly it really didn’t sink in until I read your last post, in light of twi. I am glad you posted that. Good points, Kathy.
It is interesting to me to go back and read some of these key twi verses in context. So far, I am consisting seeing vp violating his own rules for interpretation, and regardless of whether it was deliberate, certainly the fruit of it in our lives was less than the best…
Also, I looked up all occurrences of “knowledge” (irrespective of Greek word). I was looking for categories in order to define what knowledge God wants us to have. I found four: a knowledge of God, a knowledge of Christ, a knowledge of Christ’s will, and word of knowledge. I am not trying to establish theology, but to make the point that had twi taken more emphasis on the first three, probably the results would have been much different (along the lines of comments by others posted above). And really that makes sense in light of Hosea (knowledge of God and the law for their day and time). Pursuing a knowledge of God and Christ gives me a lot more peace inside than doing it to fight off the spirit realm and destruction...
One verse of note to me described a knowledge of God as a savour (perfume). A bit different than poison or leaven of legalism…
Another Spot - this is probably a little off topic but I've been thinking about the stuff you said when you posted the knowledge verses. And something struck my curiosity when I posted the passage of Luke 11:52"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." What was the "key of knowledge" that Jesus referred to?
Considering the harsh criticism Jesus fired at the religious leaders for their hypocrisy [Luke 11:37-51] – I tend to think the key of knowledge may be our obedience to the moral dictates of Scripture - in other words, the way God meant for us to understand His knowledge, the way it unfolds to us. A similar idea is found in a Proverbs passage:
Proverbs 9:10 NIV
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Just thinking out loud…I tend to think what God wants from us when it comes to Bible knowledge [i.e. Bible Study, Bible interpretation, Bible preaching, etc.] is a response from the heart – not going through the motions or putting on a religious front. This knowledge being based more on His lordship than our scholarship. In my opinion, this knowledge is not something to satisfy our intellectual curiosity or impress our friends but is meant to have a transforming influence on our souls. Interesting mental image of a key - to unlock something. Is it talking about entering into a dynamic relationship with God? Jesus did speak of gaining entrance to something. Perhaps God meant for His Word to unfold through our interaction with Him...just a thought...
Chatty, much of what you said in this thread I find myself nodding my head in agreement. IOW, you've made some very excellent points. This one . . .
Head knowledge and attention to details that had nothing to do with life and living.
. . . especially stood out for me. I remember times (during the mid 70's) where I wished I knew less and loved more. It seemed the more I knew the less I loved people and for me that was one of the reasons why I chose to go out WOW. It was my prayer (and goal) that God would show me want I needed to love people more than I thought I was and should be. The "head-knowledge" just seemed to be getting in the way.
Interesting and not off topic at all. The Pharisees had factual knowledge, but missed the point. It is one thing to carry out sin offerings and quite another to actually be sorry for the sin and try to avoid it in the future. So, yeah, I think you’re right. I think from the context the love for God and obedience arising from that love is the “key to knowledge.”
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.
“Is it referring to gaining access into a dynamic relationship with God? Jesus did speak of gaining entrance to something...just a thought...” T-bone.
That would seem to be the case. Just comparing how Jesus handled things (such as the woman caught in adultery) compared to the Pharisees (as well as the verses in Proverbs): wisdom, understanding and judgment would seem to be the result of love /respect and obedience.
“This knowledge being based more on His lordship than our scholarship”. T-bone. GREAT sentence.
For me the whole point of understanding what is not right is to get to the point of understanding what is…
Love those verses – Ecclesiastes is one of my favorite books. Sorry to bombard this thread with a bunch more verses – but I find this whole interactive thing intriguing.In my opinion, the verses emphasize experiencing the knowledge of Scripture – rather than an academic pursuit of theology. From the following verses, I see an interactive process in the way believers grow in Bible knowledge:
Matthew 7:7, 8 NIV
7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
John 7:17 NIV
If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
John 16:12-15 NIV
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
I Corinthians 2:6-14 NIV
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"[b]— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Ephesians 1:17, 18 NIV
17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
I John 2:24-28 NIV
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
From the above, I gather there's more to it than mere intellect. There may be times when we need to ask God. Ultimately we must make a conscious choice upfront to accept His will – whatever that may be – God is looking for willing participants in this experience…We are to be sensitive to His Spirit within…Even though this knowledge is subjective – being an inner experience – I believe that's the way God designed the Christian lifestyle. It is a deeply personal matter.
To reduce the Christian experience to acquiring a bunch of Bible knowledge really puts a damper on God's influence. It would be like having a photograph of God and limiting our experience of Him to only that picture. The experience is all one-sided. The picture will not respond to us, it will not answer a question or a prayer. There's no commerce between hearts, no exchange of emotions. Not much of a relationship and no interactive process is possible. My Christianity is stale and limited to only my input…How different it is as we draw near to God, as we respond to Him and He to us.
Just thinking out loud…I tend to think what God wants from us when it comes to Bible knowledge [i.e. Bible Study, Bible interpretation, Bible preaching, etc.] is a response from the heart – not going through the motions or putting on a religious front. This knowledge being based more on His lordship than our scholarship. In my opinion, this knowledge is not something to satisfy our intellectual curiosity or impress our friends but is meant to have a transforming influence on our souls. Interesting mental image of a key - to unlock something. Is it talking about entering into a dynamic relationship with God? Jesus did speak of gaining entrance to something. Perhaps God meant for His Word to unfold through our interaction with Him...just a thought...
And a kick butt excellent one at that T-Bone.
That transforming influence, oh yeah, that is sharp.
Chatty, much of what you said in this thread I find myself nodding my head in agreement. IOW, you've made some very excellent points. This one . . .
(of course it ain't here... )
. . . especially stood out for me. I remember times (during the mid 70's) where I wished I knew less and loved more. It seemed the more I knew the less I loved people and for me that was one of the reasons why I chose to go out WOW. It was my prayer (and goal) that God would show me want I needed to love people more than I thought I was and should be. The "head-knowledge" just seemed to be getting in the way.
Anyways, I love reading your posts.
Thank you for that kind closing.
I think when folks talk about the old days of twi when there was love and better times oft times it was what you just said. They were so thrilled to be stripped of personal bondage and come to the place of knowing they were worthy of God's love that other things weren't always apparent. But then the push to become big heads grew and grew and before we knew it we were deciding who we could even witness to, and gawd knows we HAD to witness. But we had requirements the person who was worthy of our time had to fit into. One being someone with the mental capacity to take a class and move beyond it, not just a person who would take the foundational class and become a twig goer, they had to have more on the ball than that. The list is bigger than that one thing but the idea was they had to be able to get big heads like the rest of us or they weren't worth our efforts.
Off topic but maybe not I remember when I first spoke in tongues and interpreted and it felt so cool but then I was told I had to make sure the length was in proportion both for tongues and interpretation and it got me so concerned about that I lost the joy of the whole thing. I overcame that but still it was head stuff to worry about that. Geez, certainly God could handle that if we were willing to serve in that capacity.
(ASpot and T-Bone, you both continued to hit on great points but I would just be repeating you to post them ;) )
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
31
17
27
32
Popular Days
Jul 15
24
Jul 11
12
Jul 10
11
Jun 21
11
Top Posters In This Topic
ChattyKathy 31 posts
T-Bone 17 posts
Eyesopen 27 posts
another spot 32 posts
Popular Days
Jul 15 2007
24 posts
Jul 11 2007
12 posts
Jul 10 2007
11 posts
Jun 21 2007
11 posts
another spot
I think that the fact there are so many denominations is proof enough that the leadership is NOT doing IITim. 2:15, and a host of other things. The schisms are a direct result of the actions and decisions of leadership rather than “layman.” The one body is a gorgeous reality. On the other hand, the Bible does warn everyone about false prophets and teachers. The proof is in the pudding and discerning the difference is not simple, as we all know from being in twi. They will deceive even the elect.
Maybe the one body is one house with many rooms. God covered and continues to cover my human limitations and the limitations of others. If He can create the universe, He can probably figure out how to get me what I need to know when I need to know it, by whatever means He wants. Jesus is still the head of the Church regardless of what man does or doesn’t do.
The whole thing that got us into trouble with twi in the first place was trusting a man to teach correctly. The Berean’s were more noble than the ones in Thessalonica because they searched the Scriptures daily to see if what they were taught was correct. That I think is the safeguard. I choose not to limit God in my life concerning what I can or can’t know or how, no matter the circumstances of my life, religion, or any other criteria. I freely admit there is a lot I don’t know.
Man is just not perfect. Five minutes in a newspaper shows us that. What we can do is help each other and do the best we can. We can’t do any better than that. But God can.
Edited by another spotLink to comment
Share on other sites
Eyesopen
I cant agree with you more. And I think that Mark would also agree that it is the responsiblilty of the leadership in any "Church" organization to make certain that the needs of all are being met. If they are claiming to teach biblical doctrine then they are also responsible to ensure that what they teach is biblically accurate. It simply cannot be the opinions of men, no matter how holy or godly they might think that they are.
"The whole thing that got us into trouble with TWI in the first place was trusting a man to teach correctly." I love that line! And I submit that this idea of "trusting a man" is what has gotten mankind into trouble time and again in regards to religion. The admonition that Paul gave us was to follow in Christ's footsteps and to trust in God. We have not been told to follow in Paul's footsteps and to trust in man.
Hence the reason that we need to search the scriptures daily to see if these things may be so. Both leaders and laymen alike must search the scripture. We are all of us responsible to a great extent for our own walk with God. We need to search the scriptures to make certain that what we are being taught is in fact the Word of God and not the word of man with a shiny veneer. Because as ASpot pointed out spotting the counterfeits is not so easy as it may sound.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cman
I haven't read this whole thread but thought I'd say a few words.
The hook and poison ... yeah...
mathematical exactness and scientific precision
fits like a hand in a glove
keys to the word's interpretation
contradictions in our understanding or translation
An approach to godliness that is based on 'wisdom' of men.
Could list more, but you get the idea, I hope.
'Thus saith the Lord' and the mind shuts off everything else.
The worst hook and poison I know of.
What the Lord does say is to continue to grow in understanding and wisdom.
So 'Thus saith the Lord' changes as we grow in it,
sometimes a completely new understanding,
of what has been said and what is being said.
Seeking wisdom from wherever it can be found.
Hidden in the words of the living and in ourselves.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
I don't put the time I should into research like I use to so hesitate to add too much that comes off the top of my head. But I have things stored up there and they come out when I read things here and it expands my understanding. Not because I simply follow the words of posters like you and Mark who I was speaking of above but because once you've done some work for your own understanding it helps you recognize godly logic IMHO. Not that I'm so great, goodness no, but I do have a personal relationship with God and He blows my mind with how he provides things when I put in the littlest of efforts. It makes me think He must be so thrilled to have someone love and believe in Him (in this day and time) that He doesn't even hesitate to go beyond His written promises in our lives.
But that isn't exactly on point for this thread I know.
Hugs dear one!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
“Thus saith the Lord' and the mind shuts off everything else.
The worst hook and poison I know of.”—Cman
Good point.
Hi Kathy!!
Ok. I’ve been thinking…….
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
1Ti 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
This first verse was always taught out of context. If you consider context, and the fact there was no NT available yet, “truth” refers to the truth concerning Jesus and probably changes from the OT.
As a stand alone, it sounds like THE TRUTH, some all encompassing thing. Also, a big deal was made about knowledge (epignosis), ACCURATE truth. More bait.
Then there’s this:
Hsa 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge:
This is another one taken out of context, again violating VP’s own rule as if it applied to us. As a stand alone, it is a bit frightening. It leads one to believe the result of not getting enough knowledge will result in destruction. Here is the rest of the verse:
because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
The context is Israel walked completely away from God and began to practice idolatry. If you read the chapter, the problem was sin. They were practicing murder, ect. The lack of knowledge was specific (the Law that defined sin), as opposed to general. That’s an important distinction, but one not made by twi. As we know, Jesus addressed the sin problem, and yes we are expected to avoid it, but to say in essence if we don’t get enough knowledge (based on this verse) that we will get destroyed is baloney. More bait…
The concept of knowledge was seriously abused in twi. It was our savior. It was mysticized (sp?). It was perhaps an idol.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
PS. This opening verse indicates general knowledge of God.
Hsa 4:1 Hear the word of the LORD, ye children of Israel: for the LORD hath a controversy with the inhabitants of the land, because [there is] no truth, nor mercy, nor knowledge of God in the land.
They lacked general and specific knowledge. Nonetheless, this was an extreme situation. I still think taking it out of context is a distortion that leads to false conclusions because it doesn’t consider that salvation (as opposed to destruction) comes from Jesus (and that would of course include a knowledge of him).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jeaniam
Hi, just wanted to wave in passing and thank you for having given me much food for thought. I am trying to catch up with the thread since returning from our vacation. I never thought of 1&2 Timothy in that light. I'll be back as soon as I have something relevant to say.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
Hi ASpot,
Sorry about neglecting your post to me. I had read it and got distracted. Let me read it again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
Gosh, you laid it out so clearly and that makes so much sense. TWI kept us in bondage to head knowledge and the lure they had "it" and no one else did so if we left it we'd actually wondered if we'd be able to find anything to sustain our thinking. But IMHO they just kept us all busy in our head so we'd not have the freedom to see they were not living what they were researching and sharing.
And there are scriptures to back up what they were doing as head knowledge puffs us up.
Plus they by far had "it".
(Sorry ASpot but I'm trying to listen to the podcast of last night while thinking and posting to you and it's not conducive and I need to ready for work now)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
ASpot,
There is a balance aint' there but I'd rather only know a few verses and cleave to them than know the whole bible and do none of them. Even the Devil can quote the bible so that doesn't impress me much IMHO. (this is not to you personally of course)
What I can't wrap my head around and suspect I never will be able to is folks that just toss God into the trash because of experiences. But then I don't have to worry for their walk, only my own.
You have some interesting points, it was nice chatting with you.
Kathy
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
Kathy,
I think you might find, if you talked to such people, that few adults blithely toss out beliefs. It is more a process of questioning, concluding, reaching for different views and experiences. It may be a painful process, as in 'dark night of the soul.'
'Tossing God in the trash' make it seem as though it was a simple process followed by a drunkfest or something.
Not everyone has had your experiences with your God.
Though, I have to say, as a young person in TWI, I and many others easily tossed away the beliefs we'd been raised with...but I think much of that was a part of the natural rebellion of late adolescence.
Edited by BrambleLink to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
I have had experiences on both sides, the side of heaven and of h3ll, and yet I've not chosen to blame or toss God away as others have. If I had no experience in which to consider others actions against, not to say mine were worse, simply to say they existed, then I don't feel I could even throw out my .02 worth. But when I have lived through the fire and still didn't turn my back on God I know that anyone else could have done the same. And I suspect it is that proof in my own life that fuels me to notice others walking away. And why I can't get there for myself personally because I know for me had I walked away I would not be alive today.
But then it still comes to what you want to do in your life and I will always believe in that saying "a man changed against his will is of the same opinion still".
No doubt someone can find holes in my reasoning and that is our/their right to do so. But for me I won't be walking away from God.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Excellent points, Another Spot and Chatty Kathy!!!!!!!!! I think for most folks at TWI – knowledge was the main focus. In my opinion, this obsession with knowledge was so strong that people tended to become shortsighted – getting hung up in the technical details of the foreground [the Bible – and only a portion of the Bible at that – the church epistles] with little regard for the bigger picture or a relationship with the Savior. That "busy work" was enough to quell any desire for something of substance or awareness that we lacked a relationship with Christ. There I was thinking I had it all...I'm tapped in...and really it was quite the opposite - something REALLY BIG WAS MISSING in my life...Christ!
Your posts brought some passages to mind – very similar situations – where Jesus spoke of religious leaders more concerned for the technical details of the ceremonial law than for the weightier matters of the moral law; and of Paul's change of focus – from being a legalistic zealot to pursuing a greater relationship with Christ.
Luke 11:37-52 NIV
37When Jesus had finished speaking, a Pharisee invited him to eat with him; so he went in and reclined at the table. 38But the Pharisee, noticing that Jesus did not first wash before the meal, was surprised.
39Then the Lord said to him, "Now then, you Pharisees clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside you are full of greed and wickedness. 40You foolish people! Did not the one who made the outside make the inside also? 41But give what is inside the dish [j] to the poor, and everything will be clean for you.
42"Woe to you Pharisees, because you give God a tenth of your mint, rue and all other kinds of garden herbs, but you neglect justice and the love of God. You should have practiced the latter without leaving the former undone.
43"Woe to you Pharisees, because you love the most important seats in the synagogues and greetings in the marketplaces.
44"Woe to you, because you are like unmarked graves, which men walk over without knowing it."
45One of the experts in the law answered him, "Teacher, when you say these things, you insult us also."
46Jesus replied, "And you experts in the law, woe to you, because you load people down with burdens they can hardly carry, and you yourselves will not lift one finger to help them.
47"Woe to you, because you build tombs for the prophets, and it was your forefathers who killed them. 48So you testify that you approve of what your forefathers did; they killed the prophets, and you build their tombs. 49Because of this, God in his wisdom said, 'I will send them prophets and apostles, some of whom they will kill and others they will persecute.' 50Therefore this generation will be held responsible for the blood of all the prophets that has been shed since the beginning of the world, 51from the blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, who was killed between the altar and the sanctuary. Yes, I tell you, this generation will be held responsible for it all.
52"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."
Philippians 3:2-10 NIV
2Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who worship by the Spirit of God, who glory in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.
If anyone else thinks he has reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for legalistic righteousness, faultless.
7But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death…
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
Excellent scripture T-Bone, and can it say it any clearer!
When I was at HQ it was like we lived in a world of our own. Most had been on the field and knew that life was hard out there yet once they got in the compound of thinking being fed to them (myself included) they began to think we're not neglecting all else but rather we're so spiritually mature that we're taking it all in and placing it in it's nice little rooms, oh how clever we were indeed. When the truth of the matter was we were living in a cocoon never to emerge into the butterfly we were promised we would become. The walk of freedom we would have when others stumbled around us. All the things that were to make us so right and all else so wrong never materialized. And in time we stopped asking for them to and never seemed to notice it.
Head knowledge and attention to details that had nothing to do with life and living.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
I have now spoken with a few people that I never dreamed could get pass the "where do you go from here when you had all the rightly divided word" thinking that have found churches that aren't perfect, none are, yet have enough substance to them that they have found a spiritual home that satisfies their longings. And IMHO it takes removing yourself from twi to allow yourself to freely receive and see that that group has no market on accuracy. In fact they are way off on freedom since legalism keeps their ship on target. Even though RFR said they were going to turn that ship around, and how long it would take to do so, they only fancied up the window dressing but the locks on the cabin doors were not changed.
Yet while in their fold I believed I had something worth enduring what I endured to have. How else would generally healthy minded folks continue to allow themselves to be horsewhipped into compliance with the guise of spiritual superiority.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
I never suggested you should turn you back on your God, Kathy.
I just think it is a little self righteous and consescending to paint all those who no longer believe as you do as 'tossing God in the trash.'
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
I guess I mistook your comment on not have had my experiences then. And you can take what I say however you wish to. But blaming God for man being a @ ss and then making statements that you don't trust him and he is not a part of your life is said here in this forum daily. And it hurts my soul that loves God regardless of what men have done to me. If that bothers you then I guess we're even.
Edited by ChattyKathyLink to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
Forum should have been site as this forum is not where I read some of the things I do.
And Bramble obviously you have a problem with me and have for awhile so in light of that I will endeavor to be more clear the first time when posting where you might be reading.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
T-bone, we talked about legalism and knowledge earlier in this thread, but oddly it really didn’t sink in until I read your last post, in light of twi. I am glad you posted that. Good points, Kathy.
It is interesting to me to go back and read some of these key twi verses in context. So far, I am consisting seeing vp violating his own rules for interpretation, and regardless of whether it was deliberate, certainly the fruit of it in our lives was less than the best…
Also, I looked up all occurrences of “knowledge” (irrespective of Greek word). I was looking for categories in order to define what knowledge God wants us to have. I found four: a knowledge of God, a knowledge of Christ, a knowledge of Christ’s will, and word of knowledge. I am not trying to establish theology, but to make the point that had twi taken more emphasis on the first three, probably the results would have been much different (along the lines of comments by others posted above). And really that makes sense in light of Hosea (knowledge of God and the law for their day and time). Pursuing a knowledge of God and Christ gives me a lot more peace inside than doing it to fight off the spirit realm and destruction...
One verse of note to me described a knowledge of God as a savour (perfume). A bit different than poison or leaven of legalism…
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Another Spot - this is probably a little off topic but I've been thinking about the stuff you said when you posted the knowledge verses. And something struck my curiosity when I posted the passage of Luke 11:52"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering." What was the "key of knowledge" that Jesus referred to?
Considering the harsh criticism Jesus fired at the religious leaders for their hypocrisy [Luke 11:37-51] – I tend to think the key of knowledge may be our obedience to the moral dictates of Scripture - in other words, the way God meant for us to understand His knowledge, the way it unfolds to us. A similar idea is found in a Proverbs passage:
Proverbs 9:10 NIV
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding.
Just thinking out loud…I tend to think what God wants from us when it comes to Bible knowledge [i.e. Bible Study, Bible interpretation, Bible preaching, etc.] is a response from the heart – not going through the motions or putting on a religious front. This knowledge being based more on His lordship than our scholarship. In my opinion, this knowledge is not something to satisfy our intellectual curiosity or impress our friends but is meant to have a transforming influence on our souls. Interesting mental image of a key - to unlock something. Is it talking about entering into a dynamic relationship with God? Jesus did speak of gaining entrance to something. Perhaps God meant for His Word to unfold through our interaction with Him...just a thought...
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
Larry N Moore
Chatty, much of what you said in this thread I find myself nodding my head in agreement. IOW, you've made some very excellent points. This one . . .
. . . especially stood out for me. I remember times (during the mid 70's) where I wished I knew less and loved more. It seemed the more I knew the less I loved people and for me that was one of the reasons why I chose to go out WOW. It was my prayer (and goal) that God would show me want I needed to love people more than I thought I was and should be. The "head-knowledge" just seemed to be getting in the way.
Anyways, I love reading your posts.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
another spot
Interesting and not off topic at all. The Pharisees had factual knowledge, but missed the point. It is one thing to carry out sin offerings and quite another to actually be sorry for the sin and try to avoid it in the future. So, yeah, I think you’re right. I think from the context the love for God and obedience arising from that love is the “key to knowledge.”
Ecc 12:13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.
Ecc 12:14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether [it be] good, or whether [it be] evil.
“Is it referring to gaining access into a dynamic relationship with God? Jesus did speak of gaining entrance to something...just a thought...” T-bone.
That would seem to be the case. Just comparing how Jesus handled things (such as the woman caught in adultery) compared to the Pharisees (as well as the verses in Proverbs): wisdom, understanding and judgment would seem to be the result of love /respect and obedience.
“This knowledge being based more on His lordship than our scholarship”. T-bone. GREAT sentence.
For me the whole point of understanding what is not right is to get to the point of understanding what is…
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Love those verses – Ecclesiastes is one of my favorite books. Sorry to bombard this thread with a bunch more verses – but I find this whole interactive thing intriguing. In my opinion, the verses emphasize experiencing the knowledge of Scripture – rather than an academic pursuit of theology. From the following verses, I see an interactive process in the way believers grow in Bible knowledge:
Matthew 7:7, 8 NIV
7"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened.
John 7:17 NIV
If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
John 16:12-15 NIV
12"I have much more to say to you, more than you can now bear. 13But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. 14He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. 15All that belongs to the Father is mine. That is why I said the Spirit will take from what is mine and make it known to you.
I Corinthians 2:6-14 NIV
6We do, however, speak a message of wisdom among the mature, but not the wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7No, we speak of God's secret wisdom, a wisdom that has been hidden and that God destined for our glory before time began. 8None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9However, as it is written:
"No eye has seen,
no ear has heard,
no mind has conceived
what God has prepared for those who love him"[b]— 10but God has revealed it to us by his Spirit.
The Spirit searches all things, even the deep things of God. 11For who among men knows the thoughts of a man except the man's spirit within him? In the same way no one knows the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. 12We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us. 13This is what we speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words.[c] 14The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Ephesians 1:17, 18 NIV
17I keep asking that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the glorious Father, may give you the Spirit[f] of wisdom and revelation, so that you may know him better. 18I pray also that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened in order that you may know the hope to which he has called you, the riches of his glorious inheritance in the saints,
I John 2:24-28 NIV
24See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.
26I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
28And now, dear children, continue in him, so that when he appears we may be confident and unashamed before him at his coming.
From the above, I gather there's more to it than mere intellect. There may be times when we need to ask God. Ultimately we must make a conscious choice upfront to accept His will – whatever that may be – God is looking for willing participants in this experience…We are to be sensitive to His Spirit within…Even though this knowledge is subjective – being an inner experience – I believe that's the way God designed the Christian lifestyle. It is a deeply personal matter.
To reduce the Christian experience to acquiring a bunch of Bible knowledge really puts a damper on God's influence. It would be like having a photograph of God and limiting our experience of Him to only that picture. The experience is all one-sided. The picture will not respond to us, it will not answer a question or a prayer. There's no commerce between hearts, no exchange of emotions. Not much of a relationship and no interactive process is possible. My Christianity is stale and limited to only my input…How different it is as we draw near to God, as we respond to Him and He to us.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
ASpot,
Great thread you have going here. :)
And a kick butt excellent one at that T-Bone.
That transforming influence, oh yeah, that is sharp.
Thank you for that kind closing.
I think when folks talk about the old days of twi when there was love and better times oft times it was what you just said. They were so thrilled to be stripped of personal bondage and come to the place of knowing they were worthy of God's love that other things weren't always apparent. But then the push to become big heads grew and grew and before we knew it we were deciding who we could even witness to, and gawd knows we HAD to witness. But we had requirements the person who was worthy of our time had to fit into. One being someone with the mental capacity to take a class and move beyond it, not just a person who would take the foundational class and become a twig goer, they had to have more on the ball than that. The list is bigger than that one thing but the idea was they had to be able to get big heads like the rest of us or they weren't worth our efforts.
Off topic but maybe not I remember when I first spoke in tongues and interpreted and it felt so cool but then I was told I had to make sure the length was in proportion both for tongues and interpretation and it got me so concerned about that I lost the joy of the whole thing. I overcame that but still it was head stuff to worry about that. Geez, certainly God could handle that if we were willing to serve in that capacity.
(ASpot and T-Bone, you both continued to hit on great points but I would just be repeating you to post them ;) )
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.