Where's Chris Geer?

[Deciderator]

Cause Geer got lcm to sign over the copy rights or something to the way of great brittain if I remember properly. That was when lcm was agreeing with geer about everything.

So there was no crime of "piracy" committed, right?

[Ham]

I think it is still piracy. It's just, he's stolen what nobody else in their right mind would even want..

Actually, it is still piracy, because Bullinger Trust, whoever holds the papers on Kenyon, Stiles, Leonard, etc. etc. could very well bring suit if they wished. But it would be like squeezing blood out of a piece of granite.

About all they could do is put him out of business.

I think such a case would be actionable, but geer is so itty bitty tiny that about all they'd get out of him probably wouldn't cover the lawyers' lunch..

I don't think anything will come of it, unless he turns whatever he named the group into a multi-million dollar corporation. Likelihood? I don't think he has the gumption to do it..

Edited August 4, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

Actually, if I remeber correctly, geer incorporated der vey of Great Britain, and the organization over the pond had publishing rights to vic's "works".

Not geer, in the united states in maine somewhere.

I also seem to remember that whatever incorporation he was head of was dissolved..

far as I know, at the present moment, he doesn't have rights to anything..

[Deciderator]

Actually, if I remeber correctly, geer incorporated der vey of Great Britain, and the organization over the pond had publishing rights to vic's "works".

Not geer, in the united states in maine somewhere.

I also seem to remember that whatever incorporation he was head of was dissolved..

far as I know, at the present moment, he doesn't have rights to anything..

So why no lawsuit?

Why no injunctions, no 'cease and desist' orders, especially given the sensitivity to how classes were presented and all? Not even an attempt to have the man charged, much less convicted in a court of law, which is how we do things in the U.S.

Not one "crime victim" is responding in the way such "crime victims" typically respond, are they?

It's not making sense.

There must be a way to sensibly put together the known facts including the lack of legal action, the victim's non-response and come up with a reasonable explanation.

Maybe some namecalling would help.

Perhaps you could make a face.

Yeah, that's it. make a face so no one sees you avoiding my point.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Deciderator

[Ham]

So why no lawsuit?

I dunno. Probably same reason that not everybody who exceeds seventy five miles per hour on the highway gets a ticket. Technically, they are liable to "prosecution" if caught.

The first question in the good old usa, unless somebody has enough money to burn, and a big enough ax to grind, is, "how much money does the guy have?"

"Little itty bitty teenie weenie" was more than just a jab at the guy- I don't think he or his organization have the resources to make such a claim worth pursuing. He represents rather small potatos.

Maybe..

maybe secretly those who run der vey actually LIKE him. He WAS instrumental in getting loy over the deep end..

or maybe he "has" something on them, and they'd rather let him milk a little out of ole vic's work, rather than open his mouth..

maybe they have some kind of agreement..

who knows..

Edited August 4, 2007 by Mr. Hammeroni

[Ham]

Personally, the money trail (or lack therof) is logical enough reason for me.

He can't exactly get rich on pfal..

all he can do is get a FEW adoring, fawning fans.. tell him how great his "work" is, how much it sounds like vics old class..

maybe that's all he wants.

[Ham]

Some people among us have such a small amount of self respect, that they need to portray themselves as something greater than what they really are..

[Deciderator]

I dunno. Probably same reason that not everybody who exceeds seventy five miles per hour on the highway gets a ticket. Technically, they are liable to "prosecution" if caught.

Hasn't Mr. Geer been caught?

It would seem a little thing during one of those meetings with the legal team that they could file an injunction, a stop-and-desist order - somthing that would fit with what we know about TWI protecting copywrighted material.

Nope, it doesn't fit.

The first question in the good old usa, unless somebody has enough money to burn, and a big enough ax to grind, is, "how much money does the guy have?"

"Little itty bitty teenie weenie" was more than just a jab at the guy- I don't think he or his organization have the resources to make such a claim worth pursuing. He represents rather small potatos.

A thief is a thief. TWI and the Way GB had a lot of money flowing through there, you saying you don't think this "pirate" would've gotten away with big bucks? How can you be sure he doesn't live frugally but goes to St.Tropez and Punta, partying it up with P Diddy and the jet set?

Maybe..

maybe secretly those who run der vey actually LIKE him. He WAS instrumental in getting loy over the deep end..

or maybe he "has" something on them, and they'd rather let him milk a little out of ole vic's work, rather than open his mouth..

maybe they have some kind of agreement..

who knows..

Thjose are good guesses I suppose, but not really the way a victim responds, is it?

Especially when the victim is supposedly cash tight and they see a chap making money offa their intellectual propitty?

If we use Occam's razor, isn't the more likely explanation that Mr. Geer has rights to the property and what he is doing is legal?

[Ham]

Maybe the local DA doesn't have the heart, or time and resources to prosecute a guy for imitating Napoleon..

that's the other thing. Even when loy's "preclivities" were revealed.. why no grand jury investigation, no criminal prosecution? He DID perform criminal acts.

Because he's small potatos. Even in a county as small as Augalize.

They don't have the time, the staff, the money, the stamina, to pursue every teeny weenie moglet in their jurisdiction, who treats the employees as a personal harem..

sorry, it's just not a perfect world.

Only real "trial" these jackasses will ever get will be public castigation on the internet..

it may be second best, but better than nothing I guess..

[Ham]

If we use Occam's razor, isn't the more likely explanation that Mr. Geer has rights to the property and what he is doing is legal?

I think the money is the simpler solution. Unlike the Mcmull*n tragedy, a trial would probably cost them, say, close to a million dollars. Add to this, geer probably knows as much a rosie about the inner workings and corruption.

I think in recent years, they have chosen to listen to their lawyers. "Well, we can paste the guy, but it's gonna cost you $,$$$,$$$.$$."

McM*llen was a walk in the park.. maybe a hundred grand to crush his hopes from ever setting foot on the property..

I think it boils down to two things:

1. Money. Absolute, horrible waste of time, money and effort to get no return.

2. The POSSIBILITY (in my OPINION) of blackmail here. They don't want the hornet's nest stirred up, any more than it is already. Look what ONE CASE did to their "prestige" and reputation in WayDale days.

When they went after Rob*rege, they had an ax to grind. As long as he represented himself, he was a rather easy target.

They would rather go after easy, "weak" targets.. like Rob*rege, McM*llen. That way, they can at least have an illusion of "prevailing".

[Deciderator]

Maybe the local DA doesn't have the heart, or time and resources to prosecute a guy for imitating Napoleon..

that's the other thing. Even when loy's "preclivities" were revealed.. why no grand jury investigation, no criminal prosecution? He DID perform criminal acts.

Wasn't there a lawsuit with lawyers and stuff?

Didn't he have to step down - hell get kicked out?

In other words, face consequences?

Why no consequences to Mr. Geer's alleged piracy?

Given TWIs legal bills, how much could it cost to send a cease and desist order?

Nope, given their zealous protection of other intellectual property, this isn't making sense.

They don't have the time, the staff, the money, the stamina, to pursue every teeny weenie moglet in their jurisdiction, who treats the employees as a personal harem..

Au contraire!

I occasionally take a vacation in Maine (going in September) and I have noticed some pretty hard corps folks when it comes to traditional American values and anyone abusing employees in a harem would get the whole town in the streets with torches, pitchforks and my favorite, cudgels. Crime seems low, so it's not like prosecutors are too busy.

Nope, still not fitting.

And since we're talking interstate commerce, couldn't the FBI be brought in?

Nope, this is not going together at all.

Only real "trial" these jackasses will ever get will be public castigation on the internet..

it may be second best, but better than nothing I guess..

That's not a "real" trial or anything close.

They had better in the old Soviet Union.

Nope.

The simplest solution appears to be the one you, rascal and wordwolf have all posted, and that is that Mr. Geer has had the rights all along and so has done nothing wrong.

The "piracy" charge is clearly bogus.

ALL FOUR OF US AGREE!

Edited August 4, 2007 by Deciderator

[Deciderator]

I think the money is the simpler solution. Unlike the Mcmull*n tragedy, a trial would probably cost them, say, close to a million dollars. Add to this, geer probably knows as much a rosie about the inner workings and corruption.

I don't know about this Mcmull thing.

How could a cut and dried "piracy" case cost a million dollars?

It's open-and-shut, isn't it?

They show Geer published, they show their title and ol' CG is off to making little ones out of big ones as a guest of the state.

And by taking all the proof to the state or to the FBI, why should a criminal prosecution cost them anything?

I think it boils down to two things:

1. Money. Absolute, horrible waste of time, money and effort to get no return.

No return?

How do you think it goes down knowing Mr. Geer is out there making money offa their propitty, doing whatever he pleases and in effect, representing them, yet they have no control?

As vindictive as they are at HQ?

Nope, still not fitting.

2. The POSSIBILITY (in my OPINION) of blackmail here. They don't want the hornet's nest stirred up, any more than it is already. Look what ONE CASE did to their "prestige" and reputation in WayDale days.

So they have no prestige to lose?

Blackmail?

Whoooo-wheeeee! the unsubstantiated allegations of crimes are starting to add up here. How about burglary? Bigamy? Murder?

When they went after Rob*rege, they had an ax to grind. As long as he represented himself, he was a rather easy target.

They would rather go after easy, "weak" targets.. like Rob*rege, McM*llen. That way, they can at least have an illusion of "prevailing".

B-b-b-b-b-but you said Mr. Geer was small potatoes with nothing, so wouldn't that, pluys the obvious "piracy" make him an easy target?

Nope, it doesn't add up unless we invent crimes and go into these contortions of first he's "itty bitty" and then he's got the intimidating presence of Man Mountain Jack....

No, I think you were right the first time in post #203

Actually, if I remeber correctly, geer incorporated der vey of Great Britain, and the organization over the pond had publishing rights to vic's "works".

Not geer, in the united states in maine somewhere.

You just got a tad off on whether he had U.S. rights, because look what he's done!

and look who agrees:

Wordwolf, post #197:

Cause Geer got lcm to sign over the copy rights or something to the way of great brittain if I remember properly. That was when lcm was agreeing with geer about everything.

InvisibleDan, post #174

If Geer was ever pressed with the charge of piracy, I imagine all he would need do is counter with the claim that the majority of material in his class was actually derived from Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" which is safely in the public domain.

Any supposed, unique contributions by Wierwille may be extremely minor by comparison. So few as to arguably fall within the perimeters of "fair use".

Rascal, post #196:

Cause Geer got lcm to sign over the copy rights or something to the way of great brittain if I remember properly. That was when lcm was agreeing with geer about everything.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Deciderator

[Ham]

Sorry.. this legal rodent can only offer a few guesses..

honestly though, I think that geer knows where enough skeletons are hidden that they just won't mess with him..

[Ham]

Wasn't there a lawsuit with lawyers and stuff?

Didn't he have to step down - hell get kicked out?

In other words, face consequences?

Consequences? Yes. Proper consequences? I'll leave that up to the "jury".. actually, the organization that ENABLED him paid more for the consequences, an undisclosed sum.

interesting that it took NEAR CRIMINAL proceedings to remove the emperor from office.. they were looking at racketeering, all kinds of crap..

they had the gall to put him in charge of research, before the judge determined that they would have to answer for a few of the charges before a jury..

I think the million dollar estimate may have been low. So much of what was "pirated", could easily be shown to be used in prior art or publication. If I were them, I wouldn't really want to go there..

with geer though.. I think he is a LITTLE more intelligent than loy. He'd hang them high.. if he was challenged.. at least in my opinion.

I'm really not offerring a legal opinion. Hopefully it is intelligent, and thought through..

take what you want and throw the rest away..

:)

[WordWolf]

The gentleman is accusing Chris Geer of "piracy" - stealing - for which we have laws and a system for dealing with such crimes.

Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary.

"piracy:2 the unauthorized use of another's production, invention, or conception,

especially in infringement of a copyright."

US law considers citing sources to be ALWAYS necessary in any usage of another's written works.

Therefore, all usages where one fails to cite sources-whether through ignorance or through intent

(whether you mean to, or are ignorant of the law is no excuse),

you are using sources in an unauthorized fashion.

cg's materials have always had a COPYRIGHT NOTICE on them- he's well aware of the basics of the law

concerning this, in case someone wants to claim this qualifies as news.

According to my collegiate dictionary (which is acceptable up through college, which is why it's a COLLEGIATE

dictionary and is only exceeded by an UNABRIDGED dictionary), the term "piracy" IS CORRECT in this usage.

Again, however, I don't see the reason for this obsession with ONE WORD Juedes used.

(vpw uses a lot of plagiarized words, that's fine,

cg uses a lot of plagiarized words, that's fine,

Juedes uses a noun in a fashion you don't like, that's cause for outrage.

THIS is considered healthy?)

It's not stealing or "piracy" if the person gives you something freely or you have rights to it. If what you said is the case, there was no crime of "piracy."

Since you're not an attorney, forgive me if I reserve the right to disagree, pending an actual source

saying otherwise. I quoted a source-you're welcome to post a source rebutting it.

(As in, a lawyer saying "refusal to cite sources should never be considered 'piracy',

not a dictionary failing to include a definition, since inferior dictionaries will of course exclude definitions.)

Given the situation between Mr. Geer and TWI, it is reasonable that if Mr. Geer was making money with the intellectual property of TWI then TWI would sue or at least issue a cease-and-desist order.

There's where your supposition lies- that piracy/breaking the law REQUIRES "making money with the intellectual property

of twi."

cg is engaging in FRAUD and PLAGIARISM, but the only parties that could sue are:

-himself, holding part of the copyright

-twi, holding part of the copyright

-the public, holding the public domain rights on Bullinger's works.

- Leonard's copyright holders

He's not going to sue himself.

twi can sue him, but can't recover damages since he holds part of the copyright. Therefore, they can waste tens of thousands

or hundreds of thousands of dollars, only to pour them down a hole and never recover them. They're not THAT stupid.

They also don't care about what's right enough to spend lots of money with no hope of recovering it.

Now, the public could do so- but someone would have to be willing to sue on behalf of the public, and waste hundreds of thousands

of dollars to get him to stop using Bullinger's works without citing the sources.

Leonard elected to not sue vpw, and his copyright holders are unlikely to wrangle in court with similar results mentioned above.

Court is EXPENSIVE.

A court could not only award money the classes have made, but additional damages as well if there's a case.

They have not and I have seen no reasonable explanation why.

I've provided the answers now- but I did ALREADY and am repeating myself.

This puts a great big torpeda in Mr. Jeudes boat, in my view.

Others view it differently.

As for the rest, it is not up to me to coin phrases or expressions for someone elses posts.

You objected to his usage of a word-which, as I showed, is consistent with acceptable English as demonstrated

in a collegiate dictionary. (That's as authoritative as one can reasonably get in a living language.)

If you feel it's objectionable, feel free to provide a more appropriate-in your opinion- term.

Or, is this really about something other than proper English?

[johnj]

Someone said that BOT signed over rights of publication of PFAL and Wierwille to The Way of Great Britain, and that VPW assigned Geer to rework PFAL. But no one has produced any proof of this, other than Geer's verbal statements which are not corraborated. However, we do know that Martindale reworked and replaced PFAL himself in the Way of Abundance and Power in 1996. So apparently he did not think the BOT gave this task to Geer.

At any rate, The Way of Great Britain did not publish Geer's Walking in God's Power. European Christian Press and The Way of Great Britain did publish Wierwille's Take God at His Word. But it did not publish Geer's WIGP. So even if The Way of Great Britain had permission to publish such things, it did not publish Geer's class and Geer was no longer a part of it when he published his class in 1995.

Here's a quote from Geer's WIGP, Intermediate Class p 105:

Matthew 28:19... there is no record in the New Testament in of this command ever being carried out by the apostles or anyone else in the early church. Many scholars believe that this portion was not in the original manuscripts when '...holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.'... the apostles always baptized in the name of Jesus Christ or in the name of the Lord Jesus. Acts 2:38... Acts 8:16... Acts 10:48... Acts 19:5.... the manuscripts from which Eusebius quoted (Eusebius died c. AD 340) could not have contain the words... for he quotes Matthew 28:19 eighteen times without once using them."

Does this sound familiar? Hint: check Receiving the Holy Spirit p. 293-294. (Actually, Wierwille plagiarized this from Bullinger, and Geer plagiarized it from Wierwille.) Geer never puts this section in quotes, nor cites where he took it from, which is normal academic practice even if it's not copied word for word. Even middle schoolers know you can't copy others virtually word for word without citing the source. (Geer did change a handful of words, but anyone with even the slightest objectivity can see that he was copying Wierwille. No one could get this virtual word-for-word correspondence without doing so.) The real corker is that Geer duplicated so much of PFAL and RTHST, yet never once mentions Wieriwlle, PFAL or RTHST in the books/sylabi-- instead he includes copyright notices identifying himself as sole author and threatening anyone who reproduces it. Such hypocrisy.

Actually, the comment about Eusebius is false. Eusebius did use the whole phrase "baptizing them in then name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" four times, in Contra Marcellum (twice), De ecclesiastica theologia and in a letter to the church at Ceasarea. Plus two important ancient NT Greek Manuscripts, B and X (Hebrew aleph) have them, and Eusebius is assumed to have be the man who commissioned them. Apparently Bullinger did not know fo these occurances because the works were not in English.

[Ham]

Many scholars believe that this portion was not in the original manuscripts when '...holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.'

I always wondered why this was so vague. You'd think that if they were scholars worth their salt, why not name and number them?

Geer never puts this section in quotes, nor cites where he took it from, which is normal academic practice even if it's not copied word for word. Even middle schoolers know you can't copy others virtually word for word without citing the source.

I wonder if that is what they thought "making the teaching your own" really meant..

[Ham]

I occasionally take a vacation in Maine (going in September) and I have noticed some pretty hard corps folks when it comes to traditional American values and anyone abusing employees in a harem would get the whole town in the streets with torches, pitchforks and my favorite, cudgels.

one could only wish..

do you think the residents there might consider a little road trip to northern Ohio?

[Deciderator]

Sorry.. this legal rodent can only offer a few guesses..

honestly though, I think that geer knows where enough skeletons are hidden that they just won't mess with him..

Whaya think the chances are he's got a group of trunks ckock-a-block full of Krugerrands?

The point is, we don't really know and to pretend one does is clearly an exercise in bovine byproduct.

Accusations of criminal behaviour (like "piracy") that are unsubstantiated by fact should not be made so flippantly.

[socks]

Way back when somewhere around '86-'87, Geer stated in one of his "POP" dissertations that the Way of Europe was having trouble getting bookstore orders handled timely, everything was late or wrong coming out of the Way Nash, words to that effect. So he got the BOTee's to give TWofE rights to reproduce the PFAL class, syllabuski's, books, over there. I "think" this may have included all of the bookstore media the Way Nash of America produced out of their Christian Press business, I think...

Vague as mud, bit it seemed like when a lot of the Way Nash of America (the New Knoxville affiliated bunch of Corps) started splitting off this was repeatedly brought up because those who ended up wanting to quit and end their dealings with the Way Nash of America were able in some instances to get the PFAL class, books and other materials direct from The Way of Europe, or Great Britain, or whatever Geer was running over there.

From what I've seen and heard there's still a lot of those floating around, under whatever agreements were struck at the time between the American Corps and Way Nashers, and Geer. I don't even know if there's still an official "Way of Great Britain" or something that's related to Geer's business over there in the 80's, but I'd think if there is they still have the same rights to sell stuff to Americans.

All of which allows the European Connection to provide PFAL materials and Way books to Americans without having to go through the New Knoxville corporation. Don't know how they money is split up, but I'd think it all stays in the European hands but I don't know.

That's all reprinting of existing stuff and sales and distribution of it. The stuff about Geer's "new" class resembling and being note-for-note renderings of VP's stuff would be different.

There's no question to me or surprise that what Geer produced would closely resemble VP's stuff and probably be word for word in parts. PFAL is the basic word track he would have worked from, I'm sure. Based on Geer's slavish attitude to PFAL and VP it would make sense that he'd only change what he felt VP would have wanted changed or intended to change "if he'd had time".

Which is really a b***s### discussion, the whole "if there's been time" baloney. There was time to do other things. The Way was a "reasearch and teaching" ministry. 1000's of people were devoting countless hours and life's energy to involvement with it. The PFAL series and related materials WAS all the ministry really had for it's base of outreach year after year.

If VPW had really wanted to change it, he could have. I'm not saying he didn't say he "wanted" to work on it or do this or that with it, the Advanced Class, all of that. I'm just saying if he was too distracted or lacking in energy to work with the many people around who could have helped make it happen, it's his own fault, plain and simple. He "blew it" baby, nothing more or less. It was his thing, he should have done what he thought right if it was that important.

To the ex-Way audience who longs for this stuff I'm sure there's no "piracy" of VPW's material going on. There's a big warm and fuzzy discussion that's out there amongst the exWay Nash lifers that look to "ownership" of PFAL's legacy as some kind of "spiritual" issue, belonging to the "true" believers.

The Way Nash of America in New Knoxville probably doesn't care one way or the other - why would they? They don't actively promote PFAL in it's original version as a product they sell or profit from. If they're not losing any money they don't care I'm sure. they know they can't pursue every copyright claim they might choose to challenge with all of the Way of Europe/Great Brtain copies floating around. If they could address a specific situation cheaply I bet they would, just out of meanness, spite. But they lack the interest and funds to mount an all-out shake down.

[now I see]

I think you are right, Socks, about the copyrights of the Way of Great Britain, and I think they still have them and are still a viable entity.  Chris Geer also branched off into Word Promotions while at Gartmore, but there was some sort of disagreement there too, and Geer was either

 forced out or decided to 

leave. I don't believe he retained copyrights to what he produced there either.  It's kind of fuzzy now in my memory, it's been so long since I've thought about it.

I have heard some say that Howard Allen would never allow the PFAL class and books copyright to ever be sold or shared with others while he was alive.  

In my opinion it would be better for those people who still want to exalt VP's works to just go out and buy BG Leonard's, Bullinger's, Je Stiles, and Kenyon's works, and get the research from those who actually did it, rather than raising up the VP altar.  It just propetuates his error.   

It is bad enough that so many splinter groups are still basing their ministries entirely on the basis of VPW's works.  

There are none so blind as those who cannot see.....

[Larry N Moore]

In my opinion it would be better for those people who still want to exalt VP's works to just go out and buy BG Leonard's, Bullinger's, Je Stiles, and Kenyon's works, and get the research from those who actually did it, rather than raising up the VP altar. It just propetuates his error.

It is bad enough that so many splinter groups are still basing their ministries entirely on the basis of VPW's works.

There are none so blind as those who cannot see.....

Here's a thought. If it's true that VP got his info from the works of Leonard, Bullinger, Stiles and Kenyon how is it that "so many splinter groups are basing their ministries" on the work of VP instead of those fellows? Why couldn't it simply be that they are basing their ministries on what they BELIEVE is true?

I've read many of the writings of CES (for example). Browsed their Web-page and have come away with the sense that if anything they've abandoned a few of the doctrinal teachings of VP. Even if I don't agree with some of their "new and improved" versions of doctrine I can still say they're at least trying to approach it honestly.

[Ham]

So.. where's chris geer..

hmmm. maybe.. just maybe..

he's on a one hundred day pilgramage, hitchiking through Death Valley in the summer, in search of the holy mecca of his master, Pikes Peak Seminary..

[socks]

I think you are right, Socks, about the copyrights of the Way of Great Britain, and I think they still have them and are still a viable entity. Chris Geer also branched off into Word Promotions while at Gartmore, but there was some sort of disagreement there too, and Geer was either

forced out or decided to

leave. I don't believe he retained copyrights to what he produced there either. It's kind of fuzzy now in my memory, it's been so long since I've thought about it.

Someone said that BOT signed over rights of publication of PFAL and Wierwille to The Way of Great Britain, and that VPW assigned Geer to rework PFAL. But no one has produced any proof of this, other than Geer's verbal statements which are not corraborated. However, we do know that Martindale reworked and replaced PFAL himself in the Way of Abundance and Power in 1996. So apparently he did not think the BOT gave this task to Geer.

Between what you posted but now I see and johnj, your post, the facts reside. I only have the memory of Geer explaining this - I want to say it was at the "Clergy" meeting in the Fall of - geez, memory's gone today. '86 or ''87, the "Geer had a gun" meeting that's talked about so much. The context was *before* Geer's POP piece, and was being cited as one of the problems the Way in Europe/GB had with the ever-downward-spiraling Way of New Knoxville, he said. He said the whole nest of problems with getting stuff reliably from the Way Nash was a source of ambivalence amongst the gang over there characterized as "those Yanks don't give a damm" something to that effect. So he worked it out to get rights to produce the materials locally without constraint, so they'd have the stuff they wanted.

I never saw the written agreement, and only have the history to go by, of people getting those materials through The Way Over There and going around the Way New Knox'ers to get them, avoiding contact with the more toxic BOT's and their staff.

During what LCM later called "the Fog Years" according to those who were there, God only knows what the BOT's promised, said, asked, agreed to or didn't. There was a point there if Geer has told them they should put on dresses and dance a jig while singing "I Shall Not Be Moved", I'm sure they would have started rehearsing.

But piracy? Plagiarism? In the exWay context the only ones who *might* kick up dust would be the Way of New Knoxville, the current owners of the old family farm, buildings and the corporation. Rosaleez bunch. (I'm sorry I don't have the right brain cells clicked on to know or remember quite how to refer to all the playahs.)

They would still be the clearest "owners" of the material in it's published forms I can think of. The Way of Europe doesn't "own" PFAL stuff, by the way it was described back then, just the rights to reproduce it at will and presumably make money off of it, of course.

Despite the fact Geer may or may not credit VPW as the originator of the material he's using, those in the exWay community would, and they're the primary customers aren't they?

There's a whole passle of people I'm sure who figure Geer's the rightful 'true" inheritor of the PFAL series, "spiritually", regardless of how he himself views it. The fact that he redid it, stamped his name on it and started charging money for it isn't really a surprise. He needed some income once he left/got the boot out of Europe. What better way than to pick the pockets of people who'd already paid for PFAL, a 100 times over? If they liked it the first time, they'll love it the second improved time. Plus, he had the whole "VP's Best Bud" thing going. 2 + 2 = Mo' Money, Honey.

Still, if he doesn't it seems odd. But you can't have shoddy without some odd, so it figures I guess.

Hopefully he's got out of the business of selling "God's Word".

Edited August 5, 2007 by socks

[now I see]

I just heard from an old friend that goes to a Geer fellowship that he's started sending out SNS type weekly Cd's again, for a charge of course.

This Geerite follower also claims that he has reworked the class and WIGP is not the same as PFAL, of course all the "bad" stuff from PFAL was taken out, doncha know he reworked "believing"?

My opinion is-new wine into old wineskins, and I agree Geer has changed some things but I'm not so sure he's repented, (although there is no way for me to know because he doesn't address these issues, VP's or TWI's issues, especially with the "little people") and I think the VP reverence is still alive there, and Geer's class is based on the same formulaic strucure.