While I can appreciate many of your comments and arguments, at the same time, you must see that John is coming at this from his set of beliefs, just as you are coming at it from your own set of beliefs. You spend a great deal of time and thought in discussing statements about Chris Geer and what he teaches because you apparently share many of his beliefs. You bristle at some of them being challenged.
But then you turn around and say: "I do question why he fails to look at the hurt caused by his own church and their doctrines like worship of a three headed God. " What a silly thing to say when you know that is part of his beliefs. Of course, he's not going to look at that because he doesn't believe it is wrong. Just like you don't believe Chris Geer is wrong in many things.
Defend your own beliefs all you want. You usually do so in an intelligent way. But you certainly lessen your own credibility when you descend into what amounts to a cheap shot picking at someone else's beliefs. He has just as much right to his beliefs as you and Geer have to your own.
As to John picking up his denominations dislike of The Way, I find that doubtful. I was raised Lutheran and they are very much run on a local and regional level by the synods. I think this is John's personal mission (for whatever his reasons), not a "Lutheran" thing.
While I can appreciate many of your comments and arguments, at the same time, you must see that John is coming at this from his set of beliefs, just as you are coming at it from your own set of beliefs. You spend a great deal of time and thought in discussing statements about Chris Geer and what he teaches because you apparently share many of his beliefs. You bristle at some of them being challenged.
While everyone has beliefs and you are correct to some extent they do govern how we think, my response was not do to my beliefs it was in response to the facts concerning some of his statements only. It is there in black and white so to speak in printed and audio form. I generally don't spend a great deal of time thinking about what Chris Geer is doing, but this is the GreaseSpot and when responding you had better have your ducks in a row and be smart enough to anticipate the response forthcoming, so yes I did have to check and recheck what I posted as best as One could. I did not bristle because my beliefs were challenged as you assumed. I think my record speaks for itself my interest is that people speak honestly that those whether in the Way or out are spoken of in a fair or honest way. Having some limited knowledge of Word Promotions it was apparent to me that was not the case. My contact with Chris at this point is receiving a newsletter when he gets around to sending sending one. I also took no part in any discussion concerning his character as it was not the topic at hand and another story. My interest was challenging the inaccuracies in Johns article because I felt it was not factual or honest. He is entitled to any view he wants but when you post those views just as it is here you better be sure that what you write is correct, honest if not I will bring it to his attention, period. When I posted my response it was challenged as well for proof.
But then you turn around and say: "I do question why he fails to look at the hurt caused by his own church and their doctrines like worship of a three headed God. " What a silly thing to say when you know that is part of his beliefs. Of course, he's not going to look at that because he doesn't believe it is wrong. Just like you don't believe Chris Geer is wrong in many things.
I try to evaluate the work of Word Promotions on a factual basis as well as a Biblical one. If John's mission is to help those wronged by doctrinal error as he covers extensively in the Way, my question was why only limit it there? why not if he has no agenda with the Way limit it there? why not look at his own church a well ? We all have evaluated what we believed for many years and made adjustments for error. why shouldn't he do the same and expose it there as well especially when that error causes such hurt in his own church. I don't know logic tells me that would be my starting point something close to home first then worry about other groups. I find it odd that someone with no agenda seems to only want to focus on one group with which he has had little involvement by the way. Shrug, sets off my alarm bells something stinks here. It would be like me suddenly out of the blue devoting myself to extensively writing on the problems of the Krishna's. And yet I see nothing written about his denomination despite the well documented problems , and that’s not doctrinal even.
Defend your own beliefs all you want. You usually do so in an intelligent way. But you certainly lessen your own credibility when you descend into what amounts to a cheap shot picking at someone else's beliefs. He has just as much right to his beliefs as you and Geer have to your own.
As to John picking up his denominations dislike of The Way, I find that doubtful. I was raised Lutheran and they are very much run on a local and regional level by the synods. I think this is John's personal mission (for whatever his reasons), not a "Lutheran" thing.
You may be right I was aware the synods function very differently but my experience at least on the local level is/was that they banded together on issues like the Way. I think there is a case to be made for one God vs the Trinity it was just an example from his denominational background if you don't like that one why doesn't he write to expose the sex abuse in his church men and women included, and adultery there? Just why is he so concerned only when it is in the Way or Exway and only with disputing their doctrines. I don't always agree with the end result of many who post here but I must admit there have been many posts some from those who are non Christian in belief that challenge me to consider why I believe what I do. My response was not to defend my beliefs it was to set the record straight concerning the facts in his article regarding WIGP class. It is apparent he is writing from afar and possibly only from information that comes to him from people that have a predisposed view of the author. I on the other hand have sat through the actual thing as well as have some background info on it. John has not, apparently, only gleaning a book for info he has not either had access to or chose not to accessed the research to understand the product.
What I can't understand is why you so adamantly defend CG White Dove... you pick a little word here (coup) a topic to avoid there (his personal behavior) and dance all around and can't understand why Dr. J continues to blaspheme TWI and it's offshoots... He (Dr J) does it because he believes it is evil, and rightly so... I can't understand why you have a problem with any of it... except to say that as long as you practice various thought patterns or logic that you learned from TWI you're still in their grip... like it or not, believe it or not... they've still got a claw or two in you...
...and by "you" I don't just mean White Dove... (I honestly am not trying to attack you WD, and hope it's not perceived that way... it's just how things appear to me and your posts above are just a recent example, you're by no means the only one...)
Hey Tom I do not perceive your question that way that way at all. I defend Chris as I would anyone else that I felt I had enough input for to do so who was getting misrepresented. My interest is in that he gets a fair and balanced ,honest evaluation. Part of that is considering each topic or subject on it's own merit. For example someone may not like me personally but what I may speak may still be truth. that does not give them the right because they don't like me to make .... up and say what they like or misrepresent what I may say. They can not like me all they want their choice and right but they should be honest in what is truth. I feel that John is less than honest in many of his comments it may be purposeful or it may be accidental. Personally from what I see so far I believe it to be the first option, that may change with more information of which I must say he has failed to provide. There are several reasons why that may have happened as well some of which may be he is too busy or maybe doesn't see the value in it. By the same standard I acknowledged that much of the information on his site was in fact factually correct as well. I called into question that which to me appears not to be. A reasonable request as everyone's statements here are often called into question mine as well as some think honest or fair is pro TWI. Even though it is not the same thing.
I full well agree that I took exception with some little points in his words, but little words often change big impressions of how one perceives ones words. I don't for the record consider John's work blaspheme of TWI I do consider it to be factually inaccurate in places and as such misleading or at least implying such a course.
My thought patterns are just that thoughts no more no less.. Being Christian in belief I try although not always accomplish admittedly to think according to biblical standards, which by the way does not mean taking one verse that supports the cause. Biblical thought patterns are not TWI thought patterns they are learned from and supported from the BIBLE., they are biblical in foundation although some of the patterns that were learned in TWI in fact were biblical. That makes them just that not TWI thought patterns. The parts of John's work or any others that speak truthfully I have no contention with, it is no secret that all in Way world is not happy. I accept that as well, although I don't feel I need to keep discussing it every moment, day or hour the rest of my life. Once it is established do what you can or need to with the info and move on along, at whatever speed you need to as well. Really though at some point we all hope for progress if an individual is not progressing then perhaps another avenue for advancement is needed.
Regarding Chris Geer's character. 1. it was not the subject of the discussion, 2. I don't have a desire to pass judgment on his life I don't see that as a biblical action. 3. Even if I did want to pursue such a matter I don't feel I have enough factual truth to do so, so I'll refrain. I don't just make .... up because I don't like someone.
So Tom the long and short of it is speak honestly and fairly without bias and I'll have no "problems" (see not a way thought pattern I did not say opportunities). Misrepresent the truth and you may just hear from me.
Regarding Chris Geer's character. 1. it was not the subject of the discussion, 2. I don't have a desire to pass judgment on his life I don't see that as a biblical action. 3. Even if I did want to pursue such a matter I don't feel I have enough factual truth to do so, so I'll refrain. I don't just make .... up because I don't like someone.
2. I dunno.. I'm awful tired of trying to apply bible verses to pass judgement on these characters.. their actions have really said enough..
they seem to always (?) be able to pull out some "biblical" justification for haranging people without end for some lack of protocol, some biblical reason for screwing, raping, taking advantage of sisters in christ who are *under* their care..
always some damned "biblical" reason..
all of this has had only one effect on me: I really am starting to feel like throwing away the bible..
entirely..
hell is starting to look a lot lot better than some people's version of heaven..
I think that Chris Geer's character is central to everything he does...including his "knockoff" of pfal...How can you seperate a scoundral from what a scoundral does?...I question his motives, I question his honesty and I question his qualifications or ability to teach anything to anyone...and I've known the guy for over 30 years.
What if Jeffery Dahmer wrote a book about understanding the bible?...Would you not "judge" his character before taking his words into consideration?...and what's all this religious crap about using "not judging others" as a way to ignore or sweep under the carpet, all the nefarious actions and associations by this unsavory character? God gave me a brain and the ability to discern right from wrong...and I call em like I see em...aren't we supposed to "warn" others about the wolves in sheeps clothing?
Truth is truth it is so because it fits the perimeters for defining it. None of those perimeters are dependant on the teachers life, or character. 2+2 will always equal 4 no matter who or what says it, and one can learn the mathematical truth regardless. but the question at hand is by the way Is john going to change the inaccurate statements as he promised in his articles or will it just go on as is because it fits the agenda?
hell is starting to look a lot lot better than some people's version of heaven..
Sorry Ham, you got me going on the humor thing and I just gotta tell ya....
Heaven can also start to look like some people's version of hell.
Just a nugget from one of several of my classes on the middle east, from an article in ISLAM WATCH called Virgins? What Virgins? written by Ibn Warruq. Just imagine if you as a suicide bomber, instead of waking up to black-eyed virgins, woke up to this.... :
One of the posts above doesn’t think “PFAL Piracy” is a good way to describe Geer’s class WIGP. We hear the word “Piracy” often used today to describe theft or duplication of intellectual property. Sometimes this is exact reproductions like music CDs, other times it is engineers who copy the substance or essence of a new product, usually with minor alterations, and sell it as a competing product.
Take a look at several of the chapter heads of Geer’s class listed here and ask yourself: “Did Chris Geer make these up on his own, or did he copy them from PFAL?:
(numbers are chapter numbers, words in parentheses are my notes that outline things in some of the chapters):
1. the Word of God is the will of God, 1.5 the integrity of God's Word, 1.6 the workman and the word of God (rightly dividing), 2.1 the interpretation of God’s Word (private interpretation 2 Peter 1:20), 2.4 biblical truths we must adhere to (to whom addressed), 2.6 Man’s contributions to our modern Bibles (chapters & verse numbers), 3.1 in the verse- where it is written, 3.2 in the verse-figures of speech, 3.3 in the verse- orientalisms, 3.4 in the verse- biblical usage, 3.5 in the verse- scripture buildup, 3.6 in the context, 3.7 where it has been used before, 4.1 the others crucified with Jesus Christ, 4.2 Paul’s thorn in the flesh (like Wierwille, Geer tries to establish that it was not an illness but was “buffeting” such as beatings), 5.1 ... taking into account to whom it is speaking, of whom it is true, and to whom it is addressed, 5.2a My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 5.3 consider whether things are similar or whether they are identical, , 6.1 how to receive the things of God, 6.2 the law of believing, 6.3 enemies of believing, 7.1 in the beginning (spirit- soul- body), 7.2 the ruin of a relationship (Gen 3- Eve leaves out, then adds to God’s word) 7.4 administrations, 7.4a administrations and the Passover (3 days and 3 nights), 9.1 why it is called the administration of the mystery 9.2 why it is called the administration of the grace of God, 10.1 rights, privileges and abilities of the sons of God, 10.2 the renewed mind, 10.3 the new birth, 11.3 ... about spirit being made available, 11.4 speaking in tongues, 11.5 Jesus Christ gives instruction about receiving holy spirit (breathe in), 11.6 Acts 7:54-8:24 (2 words for “receive”)
What do you think? Did Chris Geer make these up on his own, or did he copy them from PFAL?
The cover and copyright pages of the WIGP book identify Christopher C. Geer as author and print this detailed copyright statement:
"Copyright Word Promotions Ltd. 1995. All rights reserved. No part of this Student's Study Guide to the Walking in God's Power foundational class may be copied, reproduced, stored in any retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise without the prior written permission of Word Promotions Ltd."
Geer shows some knowledge of referencing other authors when he uses footnotes to identify a few authors he disagrees with on one topic.
However, although Geer claims to have produced the book, it is obvious to anyone with any knowledge of TWI that he took all its content, lock, stock and barrel, from Wierwille's PFAL. No footnotes, bibliography or acknowledgments identify Wierwille or PFAL as Geer's source. Geer never cites Wierwille in the text of the book. Someone suggested that Wierwille gave verbal permission to rework his class. There is no evidence of this. But if Wierwille had done so, Geer should have identified himself as an editor of a previous work (PFAL), not as an original author, which is a common practice in the academic world.
Geer doesn’t actually copy Wierwille's PFAL book word for word, and Geer does tweak a few details. But WIGP reproduces almost all of Wierwille's class, topic by topic. WIGP is PFAL piracy.
Some of the charges above of errors in my article on Geer’s class are simply judgement calls on specific words I use rather than errors. One post claims that “coup” is an error. In common use, a coup is an attempt to exert control over a group or government. I think Geer’s actions were an attempt to gain control, something he couldn’t do formally because the 3 trustees wouldn’t fire themselves and appoint him as trustees. Another claim is that “followers” is a bad word for Geer’s followers. I thought of using “readers” instead, but Geer’s followers are more than readers. I’ve read hundreds of authors over the years, but I remember few of their names, don’t use their classes, don’t get their newsletters and wouldn’t vehemently defend them if I saw their names in a forum. So I think “followers” is a reasonable word to use for many, though not all, of Geer’s... well, followers. Someone else might pick words others than “coup” and “followers,” but these are reasonable choices, not errors.
Geer and Wierwille come to basically the same conclusion about Paul’s thorn in the flesh, that it was not illness (this is the main point that these two men who want to defend “the law of believing” want to make) but was buffeting such as beatings. The post above said I was in error because Geer won’t license his class to all ex-wayers. But my article doesn’t say that he licenses to all ex-wayers. Ex-wayers are Geer’s audience, because they want a class that look, sounds and tastes just like PFAL... and Geer (and some other ex-way leaders) provided it.
People who think that “Lutherans” follow Luther in the way that people in TWI followed Wierwille don’t know much about it. The average Lutheran has probably read only two things by Luther- the Small Catechism, which is the length of a short magazine article (the book-sized “Small Catechism with Explanation” was written by Schwann not Luther) and the words to the hymn “A Mighty Fortress is Our God.” The majority of Lutheran clergy have probably read less than 400 pages of Luther’s writings, a tiny percentage of the reading needed to get the required Master’s Degree (equal in size to only two “collaterals”). The majority of “The Lutheran Confessions” which are the theological foundation for Lutherans today were not written by Luther; most were written or approved by committees. Luther never wrote a “foundational class” (nor intermediate nor advanced) to be used in churches (although the tiny Small Catechism is often used in classes).
The Lutheran church has never targeted TWI. The normal reaction I get from Lutherans when I say I study TWI is “what’s that?” The few exceptions are some churches located near TWI campuses or locations. Some pastors had some vague knowledge of TWI when Rome City was open, because it was near a Lutheran seminary in Ft. Wayne. But most campuses are closed now, so TWI and its splinters are back under the radar again. Even when TWI was at its peak, it was quite tiny and unknown (optimistically less than 1/10 of 1% of US population).
Ya know, a lot of people don't realize that I am the original writer of the classic song, Louie, Louie.
Yep. that's right.
In fact, it was my idea to mumble and slur words so that the uninitiated would not be able to to tell you were actually saying.---"#@##$%^*" ---or even ---"&%*^*$#@"---- and not -----"Grandpa has hemorrhoids."
Of course, A lot of people will try to take credit for that but in my heart, I'll always know the truth.
For anyone who is interested in studying this further, I have given detailed accounts in my soon to be released book entitled:
The Passing Of A Pop Song.(Garter Belts Revisited.)
John...Right on brother!...I've got a copy of Geer's book for his class (WIGP), and I must say that I concur...Geer's class is a complete copy of Wierwille's class (with a few tweeks here and there)...and NO acknowledgement to Wierwille at all...
...and this was the twi "leader" that was supposedly the closest to Veepee's bossom? According to the passing of the poop paper, Geer was the only one that could do it...etc, etc....and the guy doesn't even mention Wierwille in his class?
How about this..."I would like to dedicate this book to the man who taught me God's word and inspired me to teach others also..my father in the word, Victor Paul Wierwille"...
...but no...no mention of the old poop. What's his trip?....Even as Wierwille never mentioned where he got the info for the class from, neither did his disciple...consistant at least.
and what seems to escape certain people is that Geer is reproducing the errors of pfal...thankfully, his following is small.
One of the posts above doesn’t think “PFAL Piracy” is a good way to describe Geer’s class WIGP. We hear the word “Piracy” often used today to describe theft or duplication of intellectual property. Sometimes this is exact reproductions like music CDs, other times it is engineers who copy the substance or essence of a new product, usually with minor alterations, and sell it as a competing product.
Take a look at several of the chapter heads of Geer’s class listed here and ask yourself: “Did Chris Geer make these up on his own, or did he copy them from PFAL?:
(numbers are chapter numbers, words in parentheses are my notes that outline things in some of the chapters):
1. the Word of God is the will of God, 1.5 the integrity of God's Word, 1.6 the workman and the word of God (rightly dividing), 2.1 the interpretation of God’s Word (private interpretation 2 Peter 1:20), 2.4 biblical truths we must adhere to (to whom addressed), 2.6 Man’s contributions to our modern Bibles (chapters & verse numbers), 3.1 in the verse- where it is written, 3.2 in the verse-figures of speech, 3.3 in the verse- orientalisms, 3.4 in the verse- biblical usage, 3.5 in the verse- scripture buildup, 3.6 in the context, 3.7 where it has been used before, 4.1 the others crucified with Jesus Christ, 4.2 Paul’s thorn in the flesh (like Wierwille, Geer tries to establish that it was not an illness but was “buffeting” such as beatings), 5.1 ... taking into account to whom it is speaking, of whom it is true, and to whom it is addressed, 5.2a My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 5.3 consider whether things are similar or whether they are identical, , 6.1 how to receive the things of God, 6.2 the law of believing, 6.3 enemies of believing, 7.1 in the beginning (spirit- soul- body), 7.2 the ruin of a relationship (Gen 3- Eve leaves out, then adds to God’s word) 7.4 administrations, 7.4a administrations and the Passover (3 days and 3 nights), 9.1 why it is called the administration of the mystery 9.2 why it is called the administration of the grace of God, 10.1 rights, privileges and abilities of the sons of God, 10.2 the renewed mind, 10.3 the new birth, 11.3 ... about spirit being made available, 11.4 speaking in tongues, 11.5 Jesus Christ gives instruction about receiving holy spirit (breathe in), 11.6 Acts 7:54-8:24 (2 words for “receive”)
John good of you to drop by and spin some more yarn with us Gee John you are fudging on your original position again first it was:
Every one of Geer's topics in WIGP comes from PFAL,
Then John it was:
Every chapter topic in WIGP comes from PFAL
Now I see it is several chapter heads: So which of the three is it John? that you mean I'm getting confused with all the spinning. Hey why don't you just admit you were mistaken and that every was a poor choice and correct it.
What do you think? Did Chris Geer make these up on his own, or did he copy them from PFAL?
The cover and copyright pages of the WIGP book identify Christopher C. Geer as author and print this detailed copyright statement:
"Copyright Word Promotions Ltd. 1995. All rights reserved. No part of this Student's Study Guide to the Walking in God's Power foundational class may be copied, reproduced, stored in any retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise without the prior written permission of Word Promotions Ltd."
Geer shows some knowledge of referencing other authors when he uses footnotes to identify a few authors he disagrees with on one topic.
However, although Geer claims to have produced the book, it is obvious to anyone with any knowledge of TWI that he took all its content, lock, stock and barrel, from Wierwille's PFAL. No footnotes, bibliography or acknowledgments identify Wierwille or PFAL as Geer's source. Geer never cites Wierwille in the text of the book. Someone suggested that Wierwille gave verbal permission to rework his class. There is no evidence of this. But if Wierwille had done so, Geer should have identified himself as an editor of a previous work (PFAL), not as an original author, which is a common practice in the academic world.
Geer doesn’t actually copy Wierwille's PFAL book word for word, and Geer does tweak a few details. But WIGP reproduces almost all of Wierwille's class, topic by topic. WIGP is PFAL piracy.
John I gave you a reference to audio on that
Some of the charges above of errors in my article on Geer’s class are simply judgement calls on specific words I use rather than errors. One post claims that “coup” is an error. In common use, a coup is an attempt to exert control over a group or government. I think Geer’s actions were an attempt to gain control, something he couldn’t do formally because the 3 trustees wouldn’t fire themselves and appoint him as trustees.
Nice theory John but he never asked to be appointed as a trustee had he wanted too he could have done that while the blubbering trustees were were yes siring him on stage at Corps week. You present no evidence in support of your claim that he attempted a coup there is audio and paper letters where he addressed that notion as well as on tape to the Way Corps when John Lynn and Ralph and company were fired. Exactly what he thought of anyone supporting a coup as it was an idea that was being circulated. But I guess you prefer to avoid the hard evidence and simply assert your theory with no hard evidence as truth. Exactly how do you harmonize the statements and audio when Chris says that he is not in favor of nor supports any move toward a coup as you put it with your theory which lacks any evidence?
Another claim is that “followers” is a bad word for Geer’s followers. I thought of using “readers” instead, but Geer’s followers are more than readers. I’ve read hundreds of authors over the years, but I remember few of their names, don’t use their classes, don’t get their newsletters and wouldn’t vehemently defend them if I saw their names in a forum. So I think “followers” is a reasonable word to use for many, though not all, of Geer’s... well, followers. Someone else might pick words others than “coup” and “followers,” but these are reasonable choices, not errors.
No they are not reasonable choices. To have followers one must have a group to follow, your ignorance of his operation shows Word Promotions is not a fellowship group it is a publishing and resource producing company. Printers do not have followers churches or fellowships might. He has no followers and lists no followers or members of a group because none exists. He claims no head of any such group nor does he control or guide any such groups actions or government within any group that may use his material other than honoring the business agreement with the license agreement for WIGP his product.
Geer and Wierwille come to basically the same conclusion about Paul’s thorn in the flesh, that it was not illness (this is the main point that these two men who want to defend “the law of believing” want to make) but was buffeting such as beatings. The post above said I was in error because Geer won’t license his class to all ex-wayers. But my article doesn’t say that he licenses to all ex-wayers. Ex-wayers are Geer’s audience, because they want a class that look, sounds and tastes just like PFAL... and Geer (and some other ex-way leaders) provided it.
Actually not ,they come to very different conclusions but hell whats a small truth to get in the way of your theory. We'll just ignore that.
People who think that “Lutherans” follow Luther in the way that people in TWI followed Wierwille don’t know much about it. The average Lutheran has probably read only two things by Luther- the Small Catechism, which is the length of a short magazine article (the book-sized “Small Catechism with Explanation” was written by Schwann not Luther) and the words to the hymn “A Mighty Fortress is Our God.” The majority of Lutheran clergy have probably read less than 400 pages of Luther’s writings, a tiny percentage of the reading needed to get the required Master’s Degree (equal in size to only two “collaterals”). The majority of “The Lutheran Confessions” which are the theological foundation for Lutherans today were not written by Luther; most were written or approved by committees. Luther never wrote a “foundational class” (nor intermediate nor advanced) to be used in churches (although the tiny Small Catechism is often used in classes).
I never said that was the case did you dream this up as well?
The Lutheran church has never targeted TWI. The normal reaction I get from Lutherans when I say I study TWI is “what’s that?” The few exceptions are some churches located near TWI campuses or locations. Some pastors had some vague knowledge of TWI when Rome City was open, because it was near a Lutheran seminary in Ft. Wayne. But most campuses are closed now, so TWI and its splinters are back under the radar again. Even when TWI was at its peak, it was quite tiny and unknown (optimistically less than 1/10 of 1% of US population).
Not true I know for a fact that locally elders of the church had many meetings on TWI they did target us they also stole a grads syllabus and books to discuss how to refute the teaching. You are a liar John! They were a major force behind the deprogramming movement as well. And the KBI told us that they were responding to a inquiry from the church about our home and what was going on there. They fed them stories so they would investigate us and hopefully move us away. TWI was well know in the Lutheran community.
So I guess that's you response business as usual don't want to change my slant on my agenda with some small thing like the truth here.
"I described to him how God would compensate the martyr for sacrificing his life for his land. If you become a martyr, God will give you 70 virgins, 70 wives and everlasting happiness."
Catcup, one little snag in this "paradise".. maybe the 70 wives come with 70 angry mothers in law..
I wonder what CG thinks awaits for him at the "bema"..
I consulted a dictionary (but forgot to check the Greek word). Butt is used variously. She was the butt of the joke, butt like a goat, to meddle, the end of a cigar, and other usages. I am thinking this is a multi-purpose garment that can be used for a container, covering, and possibly protection. Hopefully it is stretchy and colorful.
Believe me, you don't want to be on the receiving end of a "butt stroke."
One of the posts above doesn’t think “PFAL Piracy” is a good way to describe Geer’s class WIGP. We hear the word “Piracy” often used today to describe theft or duplication of intellectual property. Sometimes this is exact reproductions like music CDs, other times it is engineers who copy the substance or essence of a new product, usually with minor alterations, and sell it as a competing product.
Take a look at several of the chapter heads of Geer’s class listed here and ask yourself: “Did Chris Geer make these up on his own, or did he copy them from PFAL?:
......What do you think? Did Chris Geer make these up on his own, or did he copy them from PFAL?
..... Someone suggested that Wierwille gave verbal permission to rework his class. There is no evidence of this. But if Wierwille had done so, Geer should have identified himself as an editor of a previous work (PFAL), not as an original author, which is a common practice in the academic world.....
The way I understood it, Wierwille did not ask Geer to edit the class, but to revise the thing from the ground up.
May I remind you that "piracy" is a crime punishable under the law (not far from where I am right now, pirates were hung from gallows on the banks of the river nd their bodies were chained so they would not rot offa there. As a sailor, I must tell you that "piracy" is a pretty strong charge and if you are going to make it you need to explain why there has been no legal action.
A reasonable explanation for the lack of prosecution would be that Geer was indeed authorized to redo the class.
I was in Gartmore for 6 weeks in the fall of 1990.
I want to echo what Mr. Hill has said regarding Geer and the staff there.
I would add that there were some chaps who were a great blessing to me and I learned as much in the kitchen as I did in classes. I got so much out of washing dishes I got to volunteering every time. Then I realized that only a handful of us were getting this special sort of blessing, so I kept my hand down when volunteers were called for just so someone else could get in on the good times.
There was a little Irish guy who corrected me once and I took it wrong and stewed a few days but then realized he was right and we had a private conversation and I saw the guy for what he was, a woderful man who loved God and His people.
While there I took the first edition of the revised Intermediate class. There were some changes. Some were changes in emphasis, some things were simplified and in other cases research had gone forward from where the class had been previously.
Although JohnJ wants to imply Geer isn't interested in teaching about Jesus Christ, the class ended with a wonderful teaching about our Lord and saviour that caught a number of us by surprise.
In my Bible, when I read of the rise and expansion of the early church where the Word of God grew mightily and prevailed, I do not see believers and/or leaders engaging in long running diatribes regarding perceived error that continued for years. For example, Paul didn't keep on ranting about Barnabas, warning people to stay away from him, sending letter after letter detailing Barnabas' errors.
It seems to me that if Mr. J is going to question so much about others, that it is only fair he withstand the same scrutiny.
Oh, and I miss ringing the bell at the Black Bull....................................
The way I understood it, Wierwille did not ask Geer to edit the class, but to revise the thing from the ground up.
A reasonable explanation for the lack of prosecution would be that Geer was indeed authorized to redo the class.
Who said that Wierwille asked Geer to revise or redo the class? Was Geer the only one who claims he heard VP say such a thing? From the standpoint of TWI (which VP and Geer were both part of at the time) it would have been a momentus thing to redo the class. When TWI finally did so (Martindale's WAAP) it was a tremendous occasion.
If VP had authorized Geer to redo it, why didn't he tell the trustees or put it in writing? (Surely the trustees wouldn't have taken Geer's word on this. I suspect no one but Geer's followers would.)
If Geer is the only person who allegedly heard VP say this... and since Geer is the one who would gain from this (TWI certainly didn't gain from it-- they lost from it), then this is a (self-promoting) conflict of interest. Anybody can SAY VP verbally and privately told him to redo the class-- so what?
Furthermore, TWI held the copyright on PFAL, not VP. Geer never got permission from TWI to revise and reissue it.
Also, it doesn't matter what Geer says on a tape from a meeting with a small group of his followers. There is certainly nothing whatsoever in the book/sylabus that ever mentions VP, TWI or PFAL. This would be essential if he was really "authorized" to redo the class. It would also be essential if he was honest in presenting himself as an editor of a prior work rather than as the author of a new one.
Why would he reference Lamsa in the sylabus but never VP, unless to mask VP's original authorship and pose as the author himself? (Of course, VP didn't originate it all-- he was just reading out of Bullinger for much of the class tho he never mentioned that fact in the class).
Johnj, I can not prove Wierwille told Geer to revise the foundational class and I don't think you can prove he did not.
Given the enmity between Geer and TWI, it is reasonable to conclude that had Geer nothing to show he had this authorization, that TWI would take legal action.
After all, as I pointed out, "piracy" is a serious crime.
Of course you can not claim to know why TWI allows this class to be offered, but how about a reasonable informed guess? One that reflects the relationship between Geer and TWI as well as the laws regarding piracy.
And where did you say that Christian believers and leaders carried on this sort of sustained attack on other believers in the Bible?
Like, where do we read, "...and for years afterward Paul went out through all the land preaching against the errors of Barnabas, warning everyone about his false doctrine..."?
And if VP didn't originate it, then aren't you trying to get Geer to ascribe authorship to the wrong person?
What do you think? Did Chris Geer make these up on his own, or did he copy them from PFAL?
If Geer was ever pressed with the charge of piracy, I imagine all he would need do is counter with the claim that the majority of material in his class was actually derived from Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" which is safely in the public domain.
Any supposed, unique contributions by Wierwille may be extremely minor by comparison. So few as to arguably fall within the perimeters of "fair use".
Did *mr* geer figure this pfal nest egg into some kind of retirement? Something exactly marketable?
If so, it would make perfect, logical and financial sense why he would fail to attach the "master's" name to it.
He was more than knowledgeable of the vicmeister's transgressions.
Maybe it is the dream of a madman.. how in the world can an UNTRAINED (unless you consider vic's influence), wierwill worshipping, gun-toting, abusive, arrogant, tyranical, uneducated, unqualified and uncouth loudmouth.. at least at the last siting.. and if it's really any different, I'd like to see him chime in here and say so..
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Ham
No email address?
:)
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Ham
I could thnk of a few..
he could open a hotmail accout. If all he gets are poison pen letters, he could simply dispose of it.
the_driver@hotsmail.com
meshugina123@hotsnail.com
mogster_nr_2@yarhoo.com
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TheHighWay
White Dove,
While I can appreciate many of your comments and arguments, at the same time, you must see that John is coming at this from his set of beliefs, just as you are coming at it from your own set of beliefs. You spend a great deal of time and thought in discussing statements about Chris Geer and what he teaches because you apparently share many of his beliefs. You bristle at some of them being challenged.
But then you turn around and say: "I do question why he fails to look at the hurt caused by his own church and their doctrines like worship of a three headed God. " What a silly thing to say when you know that is part of his beliefs. Of course, he's not going to look at that because he doesn't believe it is wrong. Just like you don't believe Chris Geer is wrong in many things.
Defend your own beliefs all you want. You usually do so in an intelligent way. But you certainly lessen your own credibility when you descend into what amounts to a cheap shot picking at someone else's beliefs. He has just as much right to his beliefs as you and Geer have to your own.
As to John picking up his denominations dislike of The Way, I find that doubtful. I was raised Lutheran and they are very much run on a local and regional level by the synods. I think this is John's personal mission (for whatever his reasons), not a "Lutheran" thing.
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WhiteDove
White Dove,
While I can appreciate many of your comments and arguments, at the same time, you must see that John is coming at this from his set of beliefs, just as you are coming at it from your own set of beliefs. You spend a great deal of time and thought in discussing statements about Chris Geer and what he teaches because you apparently share many of his beliefs. You bristle at some of them being challenged.
While everyone has beliefs and you are correct to some extent they do govern how we think, my response was not do to my beliefs it was in response to the facts concerning some of his statements only. It is there in black and white so to speak in printed and audio form. I generally don't spend a great deal of time thinking about what Chris Geer is doing, but this is the GreaseSpot and when responding you had better have your ducks in a row and be smart enough to anticipate the response forthcoming, so yes I did have to check and recheck what I posted as best as One could. I did not bristle because my beliefs were challenged as you assumed. I think my record speaks for itself my interest is that people speak honestly that those whether in the Way or out are spoken of in a fair or honest way. Having some limited knowledge of Word Promotions it was apparent to me that was not the case. My contact with Chris at this point is receiving a newsletter when he gets around to sending sending one. I also took no part in any discussion concerning his character as it was not the topic at hand and another story. My interest was challenging the inaccuracies in Johns article because I felt it was not factual or honest. He is entitled to any view he wants but when you post those views just as it is here you better be sure that what you write is correct, honest if not I will bring it to his attention, period. When I posted my response it was challenged as well for proof.
But then you turn around and say: "I do question why he fails to look at the hurt caused by his own church and their doctrines like worship of a three headed God. " What a silly thing to say when you know that is part of his beliefs. Of course, he's not going to look at that because he doesn't believe it is wrong. Just like you don't believe Chris Geer is wrong in many things.
I try to evaluate the work of Word Promotions on a factual basis as well as a Biblical one. If John's mission is to help those wronged by doctrinal error as he covers extensively in the Way, my question was why only limit it there? why not if he has no agenda with the Way limit it there? why not look at his own church a well ? We all have evaluated what we believed for many years and made adjustments for error. why shouldn't he do the same and expose it there as well especially when that error causes such hurt in his own church. I don't know logic tells me that would be my starting point something close to home first then worry about other groups. I find it odd that someone with no agenda seems to only want to focus on one group with which he has had little involvement by the way. Shrug, sets off my alarm bells something stinks here. It would be like me suddenly out of the blue devoting myself to extensively writing on the problems of the Krishna's. And yet I see nothing written about his denomination despite the well documented problems , and that’s not doctrinal even.
Defend your own beliefs all you want. You usually do so in an intelligent way. But you certainly lessen your own credibility when you descend into what amounts to a cheap shot picking at someone else's beliefs. He has just as much right to his beliefs as you and Geer have to your own.
As to John picking up his denominations dislike of The Way, I find that doubtful. I was raised Lutheran and they are very much run on a local and regional level by the synods. I think this is John's personal mission (for whatever his reasons), not a "Lutheran" thing.
You may be right I was aware the synods function very differently but my experience at least on the local level is/was that they banded together on issues like the Way. I think there is a case to be made for one God vs the Trinity it was just an example from his denominational background if you don't like that one why doesn't he write to expose the sex abuse in his church men and women included, and adultery there? Just why is he so concerned only when it is in the Way or Exway and only with disputing their doctrines. I don't always agree with the end result of many who post here but I must admit there have been many posts some from those who are non Christian in belief that challenge me to consider why I believe what I do. My response was not to defend my beliefs it was to set the record straight concerning the facts in his article regarding WIGP class. It is apparent he is writing from afar and possibly only from information that comes to him from people that have a predisposed view of the author. I on the other hand have sat through the actual thing as well as have some background info on it. John has not, apparently, only gleaning a book for info he has not either had access to or chose not to accessed the research to understand the product.
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Tom Strange
What I can't understand is why you so adamantly defend CG White Dove... you pick a little word here (coup) a topic to avoid there (his personal behavior) and dance all around and can't understand why Dr. J continues to blaspheme TWI and it's offshoots... He (Dr J) does it because he believes it is evil, and rightly so... I can't understand why you have a problem with any of it... except to say that as long as you practice various thought patterns or logic that you learned from TWI you're still in their grip... like it or not, believe it or not... they've still got a claw or two in you...
...and by "you" I don't just mean White Dove... (I honestly am not trying to attack you WD, and hope it's not perceived that way... it's just how things appear to me and your posts above are just a recent example, you're by no means the only one...)
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WhiteDove
Hey Tom I do not perceive your question that way that way at all. I defend Chris as I would anyone else that I felt I had enough input for to do so who was getting misrepresented. My interest is in that he gets a fair and balanced ,honest evaluation. Part of that is considering each topic or subject on it's own merit. For example someone may not like me personally but what I may speak may still be truth. that does not give them the right because they don't like me to make .... up and say what they like or misrepresent what I may say. They can not like me all they want their choice and right but they should be honest in what is truth. I feel that John is less than honest in many of his comments it may be purposeful or it may be accidental. Personally from what I see so far I believe it to be the first option, that may change with more information of which I must say he has failed to provide. There are several reasons why that may have happened as well some of which may be he is too busy or maybe doesn't see the value in it. By the same standard I acknowledged that much of the information on his site was in fact factually correct as well. I called into question that which to me appears not to be. A reasonable request as everyone's statements here are often called into question mine as well as some think honest or fair is pro TWI. Even though it is not the same thing.
I full well agree that I took exception with some little points in his words, but little words often change big impressions of how one perceives ones words. I don't for the record consider John's work blaspheme of TWI I do consider it to be factually inaccurate in places and as such misleading or at least implying such a course.
My thought patterns are just that thoughts no more no less.. Being Christian in belief I try although not always accomplish admittedly to think according to biblical standards, which by the way does not mean taking one verse that supports the cause. Biblical thought patterns are not TWI thought patterns they are learned from and supported from the BIBLE., they are biblical in foundation although some of the patterns that were learned in TWI in fact were biblical. That makes them just that not TWI thought patterns. The parts of John's work or any others that speak truthfully I have no contention with, it is no secret that all in Way world is not happy. I accept that as well, although I don't feel I need to keep discussing it every moment, day or hour the rest of my life. Once it is established do what you can or need to with the info and move on along, at whatever speed you need to as well. Really though at some point we all hope for progress if an individual is not progressing then perhaps another avenue for advancement is needed.
Regarding Chris Geer's character. 1. it was not the subject of the discussion, 2. I don't have a desire to pass judgment on his life I don't see that as a biblical action. 3. Even if I did want to pursue such a matter I don't feel I have enough factual truth to do so, so I'll refrain. I don't just make .... up because I don't like someone.
So Tom the long and short of it is speak honestly and fairly without bias and I'll have no "problems" (see not a way thought pattern I did not say opportunities). Misrepresent the truth and you may just hear from me.
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WhiteDove
WhiteDove,
Your post mentioned that my article on Chris Geer has some erroneous facts and implications. I'd like to clear them up if I could.
What particular ones did you see?
Thanks for your help.
John
John it has been a month since the erroneous facts were brought to your attention just wondering if you still planned to fix them?
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Ham
2. I dunno.. I'm awful tired of trying to apply bible verses to pass judgement on these characters.. their actions have really said enough..
they seem to always (?) be able to pull out some "biblical" justification for haranging people without end for some lack of protocol, some biblical reason for screwing, raping, taking advantage of sisters in christ who are *under* their care..
always some damned "biblical" reason..
all of this has had only one effect on me: I really am starting to feel like throwing away the bible..
entirely..
hell is starting to look a lot lot better than some people's version of heaven..
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think that Chris Geer's character is central to everything he does...including his "knockoff" of pfal...How can you seperate a scoundral from what a scoundral does?...I question his motives, I question his honesty and I question his qualifications or ability to teach anything to anyone...and I've known the guy for over 30 years.
What if Jeffery Dahmer wrote a book about understanding the bible?...Would you not "judge" his character before taking his words into consideration?...and what's all this religious crap about using "not judging others" as a way to ignore or sweep under the carpet, all the nefarious actions and associations by this unsavory character? God gave me a brain and the ability to discern right from wrong...and I call em like I see em...aren't we supposed to "warn" others about the wolves in sheeps clothing?
Geer is a phoney...
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WhiteDove
Truth is truth it is so because it fits the perimeters for defining it. None of those perimeters are dependant on the teachers life, or character. 2+2 will always equal 4 no matter who or what says it, and one can learn the mathematical truth regardless. but the question at hand is by the way Is john going to change the inaccurate statements as he promised in his articles or will it just go on as is because it fits the agenda?
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Catcup
Sorry Ham, you got me going on the humor thing and I just gotta tell ya....
Heaven can also start to look like some people's version of hell.
Just a nugget from one of several of my classes on the middle east, from an article in ISLAM WATCH called Virgins? What Virgins? written by Ibn Warruq. Just imagine if you as a suicide bomber, instead of waking up to black-eyed virgins, woke up to this.... :
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/...,631332,00.html
Disclaimer... Ibn Warruq is his pen name. And as scholarly as the work appears to be, there are some linguists who differ....
It's still funny!
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johnj
One of the posts above doesn’t think “PFAL Piracy” is a good way to describe Geer’s class WIGP. We hear the word “Piracy” often used today to describe theft or duplication of intellectual property. Sometimes this is exact reproductions like music CDs, other times it is engineers who copy the substance or essence of a new product, usually with minor alterations, and sell it as a competing product.
Take a look at several of the chapter heads of Geer’s class listed here and ask yourself: “Did Chris Geer make these up on his own, or did he copy them from PFAL?:
(numbers are chapter numbers, words in parentheses are my notes that outline things in some of the chapters):
1. the Word of God is the will of God, 1.5 the integrity of God's Word, 1.6 the workman and the word of God (rightly dividing), 2.1 the interpretation of God’s Word (private interpretation 2 Peter 1:20), 2.4 biblical truths we must adhere to (to whom addressed), 2.6 Man’s contributions to our modern Bibles (chapters & verse numbers), 3.1 in the verse- where it is written, 3.2 in the verse-figures of speech, 3.3 in the verse- orientalisms, 3.4 in the verse- biblical usage, 3.5 in the verse- scripture buildup, 3.6 in the context, 3.7 where it has been used before, 4.1 the others crucified with Jesus Christ, 4.2 Paul’s thorn in the flesh (like Wierwille, Geer tries to establish that it was not an illness but was “buffeting” such as beatings), 5.1 ... taking into account to whom it is speaking, of whom it is true, and to whom it is addressed, 5.2a My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? 5.3 consider whether things are similar or whether they are identical, , 6.1 how to receive the things of God, 6.2 the law of believing, 6.3 enemies of believing, 7.1 in the beginning (spirit- soul- body), 7.2 the ruin of a relationship (Gen 3- Eve leaves out, then adds to God’s word) 7.4 administrations, 7.4a administrations and the Passover (3 days and 3 nights), 9.1 why it is called the administration of the mystery 9.2 why it is called the administration of the grace of God, 10.1 rights, privileges and abilities of the sons of God, 10.2 the renewed mind, 10.3 the new birth, 11.3 ... about spirit being made available, 11.4 speaking in tongues, 11.5 Jesus Christ gives instruction about receiving holy spirit (breathe in), 11.6 Acts 7:54-8:24 (2 words for “receive”)
What do you think? Did Chris Geer make these up on his own, or did he copy them from PFAL?
The cover and copyright pages of the WIGP book identify Christopher C. Geer as author and print this detailed copyright statement:
"Copyright Word Promotions Ltd. 1995. All rights reserved. No part of this Student's Study Guide to the Walking in God's Power foundational class may be copied, reproduced, stored in any retrieval system or transmitted in any form or by any means, electronic, mechanical, photocopying, recording or otherwise without the prior written permission of Word Promotions Ltd."
Geer shows some knowledge of referencing other authors when he uses footnotes to identify a few authors he disagrees with on one topic.
However, although Geer claims to have produced the book, it is obvious to anyone with any knowledge of TWI that he took all its content, lock, stock and barrel, from Wierwille's PFAL. No footnotes, bibliography or acknowledgments identify Wierwille or PFAL as Geer's source. Geer never cites Wierwille in the text of the book. Someone suggested that Wierwille gave verbal permission to rework his class. There is no evidence of this. But if Wierwille had done so, Geer should have identified himself as an editor of a previous work (PFAL), not as an original author, which is a common practice in the academic world.
Geer doesn’t actually copy Wierwille's PFAL book word for word, and Geer does tweak a few details. But WIGP reproduces almost all of Wierwille's class, topic by topic. WIGP is PFAL piracy.
Some of the charges above of errors in my article on Geer’s class are simply judgement calls on specific words I use rather than errors. One post claims that “coup” is an error. In common use, a coup is an attempt to exert control over a group or government. I think Geer’s actions were an attempt to gain control, something he couldn’t do formally because the 3 trustees wouldn’t fire themselves and appoint him as trustees. Another claim is that “followers” is a bad word for Geer’s followers. I thought of using “readers” instead, but Geer’s followers are more than readers. I’ve read hundreds of authors over the years, but I remember few of their names, don’t use their classes, don’t get their newsletters and wouldn’t vehemently defend them if I saw their names in a forum. So I think “followers” is a reasonable word to use for many, though not all, of Geer’s... well, followers. Someone else might pick words others than “coup” and “followers,” but these are reasonable choices, not errors.
Geer and Wierwille come to basically the same conclusion about Paul’s thorn in the flesh, that it was not illness (this is the main point that these two men who want to defend “the law of believing” want to make) but was buffeting such as beatings. The post above said I was in error because Geer won’t license his class to all ex-wayers. But my article doesn’t say that he licenses to all ex-wayers. Ex-wayers are Geer’s audience, because they want a class that look, sounds and tastes just like PFAL... and Geer (and some other ex-way leaders) provided it.
People who think that “Lutherans” follow Luther in the way that people in TWI followed Wierwille don’t know much about it. The average Lutheran has probably read only two things by Luther- the Small Catechism, which is the length of a short magazine article (the book-sized “Small Catechism with Explanation” was written by Schwann not Luther) and the words to the hymn “A Mighty Fortress is Our God.” The majority of Lutheran clergy have probably read less than 400 pages of Luther’s writings, a tiny percentage of the reading needed to get the required Master’s Degree (equal in size to only two “collaterals”). The majority of “The Lutheran Confessions” which are the theological foundation for Lutherans today were not written by Luther; most were written or approved by committees. Luther never wrote a “foundational class” (nor intermediate nor advanced) to be used in churches (although the tiny Small Catechism is often used in classes).
The Lutheran church has never targeted TWI. The normal reaction I get from Lutherans when I say I study TWI is “what’s that?” The few exceptions are some churches located near TWI campuses or locations. Some pastors had some vague knowledge of TWI when Rome City was open, because it was near a Lutheran seminary in Ft. Wayne. But most campuses are closed now, so TWI and its splinters are back under the radar again. Even when TWI was at its peak, it was quite tiny and unknown (optimistically less than 1/10 of 1% of US population).
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waysider
Ya know, a lot of people don't realize that I am the original writer of the classic song, Louie, Louie.
Yep. that's right.
In fact, it was my idea to mumble and slur words so that the uninitiated would not be able to to tell you were actually saying.---"#@##$%^*" ---or even ---"&%*^*$#@"---- and not -----"Grandpa has hemorrhoids."
Of course, A lot of people will try to take credit for that but in my heart, I'll always know the truth.
For anyone who is interested in studying this further, I have given detailed accounts in my soon to be released book entitled:
The Passing Of A Pop Song.(Garter Belts Revisited.)
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GrouchoMarxJr
John...Right on brother!...I've got a copy of Geer's book for his class (WIGP), and I must say that I concur...Geer's class is a complete copy of Wierwille's class (with a few tweeks here and there)...and NO acknowledgement to Wierwille at all...
...and this was the twi "leader" that was supposedly the closest to Veepee's bossom? According to the passing of the poop paper, Geer was the only one that could do it...etc, etc....and the guy doesn't even mention Wierwille in his class?
How about this..."I would like to dedicate this book to the man who taught me God's word and inspired me to teach others also..my father in the word, Victor Paul Wierwille"...
...but no...no mention of the old poop. What's his trip?....Even as Wierwille never mentioned where he got the info for the class from, neither did his disciple...consistant at least.
and what seems to escape certain people is that Geer is reproducing the errors of pfal...thankfully, his following is small.
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WhiteDove
Not true I know for a fact that locally elders of the church had many meetings on TWI they did target us they also stole a grads syllabus and books to discuss how to refute the teaching. You are a liar John! They were a major force behind the deprogramming movement as well. And the KBI told us that they were responding to a inquiry from the church about our home and what was going on there. They fed them stories so they would investigate us and hopefully move us away. TWI was well know in the Lutheran community.
So I guess that's you response business as usual don't want to change my slant on my agenda with some small thing like the truth here.
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Ham
Catcup, one little snag in this "paradise".. maybe the 70 wives come with 70 angry mothers in law..
I wonder what CG thinks awaits for him at the "bema"..
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Catcup
*snicker, snort!*
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Deciderator
Believe me, you don't want to be on the receiving end of a "butt stroke."
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Deciderator
The way I understood it, Wierwille did not ask Geer to edit the class, but to revise the thing from the ground up.
May I remind you that "piracy" is a crime punishable under the law (not far from where I am right now, pirates were hung from gallows on the banks of the river nd their bodies were chained so they would not rot offa there. As a sailor, I must tell you that "piracy" is a pretty strong charge and if you are going to make it you need to explain why there has been no legal action.
A reasonable explanation for the lack of prosecution would be that Geer was indeed authorized to redo the class.
I was in Gartmore for 6 weeks in the fall of 1990.
I want to echo what Mr. Hill has said regarding Geer and the staff there.
I would add that there were some chaps who were a great blessing to me and I learned as much in the kitchen as I did in classes. I got so much out of washing dishes I got to volunteering every time. Then I realized that only a handful of us were getting this special sort of blessing, so I kept my hand down when volunteers were called for just so someone else could get in on the good times.
There was a little Irish guy who corrected me once and I took it wrong and stewed a few days but then realized he was right and we had a private conversation and I saw the guy for what he was, a woderful man who loved God and His people.
While there I took the first edition of the revised Intermediate class. There were some changes. Some were changes in emphasis, some things were simplified and in other cases research had gone forward from where the class had been previously.
Although JohnJ wants to imply Geer isn't interested in teaching about Jesus Christ, the class ended with a wonderful teaching about our Lord and saviour that caught a number of us by surprise.
In my Bible, when I read of the rise and expansion of the early church where the Word of God grew mightily and prevailed, I do not see believers and/or leaders engaging in long running diatribes regarding perceived error that continued for years. For example, Paul didn't keep on ranting about Barnabas, warning people to stay away from him, sending letter after letter detailing Barnabas' errors.
It seems to me that if Mr. J is going to question so much about others, that it is only fair he withstand the same scrutiny.
Oh, and I miss ringing the bell at the Black Bull....................................
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Deciderator
That's nuthin.
I wrote the score to Metal Machine Music
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johnj
Who said that Wierwille asked Geer to revise or redo the class? Was Geer the only one who claims he heard VP say such a thing? From the standpoint of TWI (which VP and Geer were both part of at the time) it would have been a momentus thing to redo the class. When TWI finally did so (Martindale's WAAP) it was a tremendous occasion.
If VP had authorized Geer to redo it, why didn't he tell the trustees or put it in writing? (Surely the trustees wouldn't have taken Geer's word on this. I suspect no one but Geer's followers would.)
If Geer is the only person who allegedly heard VP say this... and since Geer is the one who would gain from this (TWI certainly didn't gain from it-- they lost from it), then this is a (self-promoting) conflict of interest. Anybody can SAY VP verbally and privately told him to redo the class-- so what?
Furthermore, TWI held the copyright on PFAL, not VP. Geer never got permission from TWI to revise and reissue it.
Also, it doesn't matter what Geer says on a tape from a meeting with a small group of his followers. There is certainly nothing whatsoever in the book/sylabus that ever mentions VP, TWI or PFAL. This would be essential if he was really "authorized" to redo the class. It would also be essential if he was honest in presenting himself as an editor of a prior work rather than as the author of a new one.
Why would he reference Lamsa in the sylabus but never VP, unless to mask VP's original authorship and pose as the author himself? (Of course, VP didn't originate it all-- he was just reading out of Bullinger for much of the class tho he never mentioned that fact in the class).
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Deciderator
Johnj, I can not prove Wierwille told Geer to revise the foundational class and I don't think you can prove he did not.
Given the enmity between Geer and TWI, it is reasonable to conclude that had Geer nothing to show he had this authorization, that TWI would take legal action.
After all, as I pointed out, "piracy" is a serious crime.
Of course you can not claim to know why TWI allows this class to be offered, but how about a reasonable informed guess? One that reflects the relationship between Geer and TWI as well as the laws regarding piracy.
And where did you say that Christian believers and leaders carried on this sort of sustained attack on other believers in the Bible?
Like, where do we read, "...and for years afterward Paul went out through all the land preaching against the errors of Barnabas, warning everyone about his false doctrine..."?
And if VP didn't originate it, then aren't you trying to get Geer to ascribe authorship to the wrong person?
Why would you want him to do that?
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TheInvisibleDan
If Geer was ever pressed with the charge of piracy, I imagine all he would need do is counter with the claim that the majority of material in his class was actually derived from Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" which is safely in the public domain.
Any supposed, unique contributions by Wierwille may be extremely minor by comparison. So few as to arguably fall within the perimeters of "fair use".
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Ham
Makes me wonder...
Did *mr* geer figure this pfal nest egg into some kind of retirement? Something exactly marketable?
If so, it would make perfect, logical and financial sense why he would fail to attach the "master's" name to it.
He was more than knowledgeable of the vicmeister's transgressions.
Maybe it is the dream of a madman.. how in the world can an UNTRAINED (unless you consider vic's influence), wierwill worshipping, gun-toting, abusive, arrogant, tyranical, uneducated, unqualified and uncouth loudmouth.. at least at the last siting.. and if it's really any different, I'd like to see him chime in here and say so..
possibly sell a class on the BIBLE?
hmm. loy should have it so easy..
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