I really think, if a person can't "come clean", be honest.. they are better off letting somebody else enjoy the "icing on the cake", i.e. "teaching the word"..
That's a interesting point. However, if a person believes -- really believes -- that they're "called by God" to serve His people then serving those who are looking for something else is a distraction. Geer might be focused on things other than what you're focused on. He might -- I wouldn't really know though.
Paul admitted what he had done - many times. He didn't ignore it, deny it or refuse to speak of it.
Can't say that of geer, vee pee and the others of their ilk. Paul also thought he was doing what God wanted him to do. Can't say that either.
Acts 22:3-5
I am verily a man [which am]a Jew, born in Tarsus, [a city] in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, [and] taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day.
And I persecuted this way unto the death, binding and delivering into prisons both men and women.
As also the high priest doth bear me witness, and all the estate of the elders: from whom also I received letters unto the brethren, and went to Damascus, to bring them which were there bound unto Jerusalem, for to be punished.
1 Ti 1:13, 15
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.
This [is] a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
There's more, but I'm not going to waste my time - y'all know how to use a concordance.
Paul admitted what he had done - many times. He didn't ignore it, deny it or refuse to speak of it.
Belle, citing one section wherein Paul admitted his past mistakes hardly qualifies as "many times." Also, if we are to believe that Paul was inspired by God to write what he wrote -- then his confession wasn't exactly of his own choosing. God surely had it preserved for our learning but the lesson we learn from that section isn't just about confessing one's mistakes -- the emphasis is on moving on from that point -- doing the will of God.
Well, now that you brought up the Apostle Paul I suppose it's relative to bring up what he said in Philippians:
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Even though Paul was a murderer prior to his conversion I don't see where he spent a great deal of time dwelling on it or mentioning it in his writings. Do you think, if he did, that we would have had the revelations he received?
I can appreciate that you're just expressing your opinion. I'm just wondering if your opinion is reflected in Scriptures.
Actually, I cited two passages, there's a third in the verses prior to this snippet you posted and there is more than just those three - like I said - you're a big boy, you can look the rest up yourself.
So, yah, his opinion IS reflected in scriptures. Just because it doesn't support your argument of ignoring and glossing over the atrocities of geer doesn't mean you're correct.
As to the rest of your argument.... it's just private interpretation and reading into the motives of why Paul wrote what he did - ignoring free will and all the other "rules" you've learned.
You've taken that one verse totally out of context to support a man guilty of some horrific atrocities.
Well thanks to you all for the clarification and heads up. I mean it.
I think that my concurring with white dove may have hit a sore spot. Here's my personal review of the PFAL Piracy Article. I don't expect to make too many friends here by publishing it.
PFAL, WIGP, John Juedes and Crap Crap?
Headline - PFAL Piracy.
Go to the dictionary – look up the word piracy – there’s no piracy involved here. Attention getting headline – that’s it. But it gets people to read doesn’t it? You spin it anyway you like.
“Geer hasn't circulated Wierwille's class since TWI cut all ties with him, probably because TWI controls the PFAL tapes.”
Circulated? What does that mean? Perhaps just another well-chosen word? I sat through the Advance Class on Power for Abundant Living at Gartmore House in the summer of 1995 – long after the cut that he mentions.
“Instead, Geer licenses other ex-Wayers to use his recorded Walking in God's Power …”
How does JJ know? Does he have a copy of Chris’ list? I personally know of many Ex-wayers that applied for licenses agreements and did not obtain them. License agreements can be applied for by any legal entity.
“The class is spread over 10 or 11 sessions of about two hours each.”
All of the sessions that I attended were below 2 hours – most all were about 1 hour or less. OK minor point but it makes me wonder if JJ even took WIGP?
“… the context, used before, to whom its addressed, similar or identical, the law of believing, administrations, three days and three nights, Jesus Christ is not God, the mystery, renewed mind speaking in tongues, inhaling holy spirit, and so forth.”
The topic Jesus Christ is not God – is nowhere in the class. You were dead wrong on that one JJ. I’ve already discussed that Paul’s the thorn in the flesh was different. By the Way - I think very different.
“G*er uses all the same "examples" Wierwille used of how no one in the world understands the word except for him-- such as Paul's thorn in the flesh, today in paradise, and four crucified.”
Dead wrong on that one again JJ. Nowhere in the class is it promoted that no one in the world understands the word except for him. Nowhere!
“It's obvious that G*er took all Wierwille's teachings at face value and didn't assess them thoroughly. For instance, he just repeats Wierwille's erroneous definitions of lambano and dechomai, even though they are shallow, false and contradict Biblical usage.”
JJ you're wrong again, the definition for lambano was definitely changed. This article begins to smell after a while.
“Jesus Christ-- A Minor Topic”
Wrong again JJ. The Lord Jesus Christ’s life, death, resurrection, accomplishments and Christ being our Lord is a Major Topic in WIGP. Christ being the Head of The Church is clearly emphasized.
Enough is enough already. I could have added much more to this review. Seems to me that JJ has an agenda of his own to push. This article is full of error. That’s probably a more than polite way to say it. Frankly, after reading this stuff by JJ, I couldn’t trust anything JJ has written.
It was enough info for me to conclude that JJ should have done a bit more work work before he published his crap crap.
I wish God's very best love to you all even JJ.
Gregory A. Hill
North Tulsa County
Summer 2007
PS: I don't make any apologies for Chris. I have heard stories and I know the pain as well. I don't agree with everthing he has taught nor all the decisions he made. I am sure many people have been hurt. But he has clearly written that he has tried to get people to know about Christ - not about Chris. Having suffered the excommunication, I had to go to Christ. The end result is I became a better and stronger human being. Seems his action may have produced the desired result. For me being around Chris was wonderful, but being around Christ is much, much better. That stinky Chris, maybe one of these days I'll go up there to Maine and give him a real spanking.
PPS: By the way, for some of you fellas. I have decided to go ahead and keep my WIGP textbooks. Your request for me to post the differences between PFAL and WIGP helped spark a renewed interest. My conclusion: WIGP may be the finest introductory course in how to study the Bible and learn about God, His Word, Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ available on the face of the planet today - no matter who produced it.
Few more thoughts for Larry about the restitution thing..
Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as in you lieth, be at peace with all men.
I think this is a universal truth, that some of these guys are ignoring.
To their own peril.
I've seen some people have some pretty bad practical consequences by not heeding this.. it always seems to have a way to come back and bite a person in the a**.
blaming it on the devil for being "mean" to oneself.. or blaming others is pretty fruitless.
Actually, I cited two passages, there's a third in the verses prior to this snippet you posted and there is more than just those three - like I said - you're a big boy, you can look the rest up yourself.
Ok. I suppose three (and possibly a few more) would constitute "many times." I'm not convinced that it does but I can see how someone else might think so.
So, yah, his opinion IS reflected in scriptures. Just because it doesn't support your argument of ignoring and glossing over the atrocities of geer doesn't mean you're correct.
I don't think you really understand my "argument" if you think that Paul's focus in mentioning where he came from (his background) is the emphasis in those passages.
As to the rest of your argument.... it's just private interpretation and reading into the motives of why Paul wrote what he did - ignoring free will and all the other "rules" you've learned.
Yeah, well, I suppose my "private interpretation" is no better, nor worse than your private interpretation. We can do a poll to see how many agree with your's as opposed to mine but, I also lack very little confidence in that being objective.
You've taken that one verse totally out of context to support a man guilty of some horrific atrocities.
I hardly know Geer. I cannot say one way or another if he's guilty of the charges he's been accused of. Frankly, personally, I could really care less if he's guilty or not. I'm just expressing an opinion as anyone else here is doing. If that bothers you -- well -- I don't really care about that either.
Few more thoughts for Larry about the restitution thing..
Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as in you lieth, be at peace with all men.
I think this is a universal truth, that some of these guys are ignoring.
To their own peril.
I've seen some people have some pretty bad practical consequences by not heeding this.. it always seems to have a way to come back and bite a person in the a**.
blaming it on the devil for being "mean" to oneself.. or blaming others is pretty fruitless.
Hammeroni, there's really no need to address me in the third person. I'll try to answer any questions (or respond to comments) you have for me. That being said . . .
I don't really understand the point you're trying to make here. If you're suggesting that Geer is not living according the standard expressed in that verse -- I can't say he isn't. I can wonder though, if you are living according to that standard yourself if your agenda is to denigrate or disparage Geer for past mistakes. Do you know what he's currently doing with his life?
Hammeroni, there's really no need to address me in the third person.
Larry, I saw that there was at least one post while I was posting. I just quickly edited it so that you knew it was for you.
What he's currently doing is one thing.. what he did before is another.
Only thing I'm suggesting is that there are a WHOLE HECK OF A LOT of people that he is not at peace with.
I'm only one of them. He helped cover up corruption and abuse that if exposed, I would have left in a heartbeat. And that is precisely WHY the junk is and was covered up. He honestly must think that I am merchandise, secondary or tertiary to "da will of gawd".
I am only slightly annoyed.. imagine those who had to put up with his wrath..
Based on his track record, nobody in their right mind would ordain him to even mow the lawn.. let alone teach the bible.. and he himself has let the record stand.
So what to do? Hmmm. Get an honest job.. maybe even go back to school.. or..
ordain yourself. Just break off, start a new organization..
"water seeks it's own level"
I dunno.. maybe it looks a little harsh, but I think politics beats religion here..
can you imagine the furor, if he were to attempt to run for public office?
Larry, I saw that there was at least one post while I was posting. I just quickly edited it so that you knew it was for you.
What he's currently doing is one thing.. what he did before is another.
Only thing I'm suggesting is that there are a WHOLE HECK OF A LOT of people that he is not at peace with.
I'm only one of them. He helped cover up corruption and abuse that if exposed, I would have left in a heartbeat. And that is precisely WHY the junk is and was covered up. He honestly must think that I am merchandise, secondary or tertiary to "da will of gawd".
I am only slightly annoyed.. imagine those who had to put up with his wrath..
Based on his track record, nobody in their right mind would ordain him to even mow the lawn.. let alone teach the bible.. and he himself has let the record stand.
So what to do? Hmmm. Get an honest job.. maybe even go back to school.. or..
ordain yourself. Just break off, start a new organization..
"water seeks it's own level"
I dunno.. maybe it looks a little harsh, but I think politics beats religion here..
can you imagine the furor, if he were to attempt to run for public office?
Hammeroni, you'll have to pardon me if I come across as unsympathetic to your experiences at the hands of Geer (or any former leader of TWI). I'm trying to understand as best I can how people feel and not sharing those feelings at any time in my life doesn't help me do so. IOW -- I cannot discount your feelings nor suggest that they are something you should get beyond -- although I get the sense that that is one of the objectives of this board. Anyways . . .
If you're waiting for Geer to "man up" to his past mistakes you might go to your deathbed with peace being unobtainable. I, myself, don't look for peace from men -- they have a way of disappointing you more than once. It's easier for me just to shrug my shoulders at people who have harmed me than to go after them with expectations I might never realize.
Actually, I expect nothing. At least I won't be disappointed.
I personally don't think he has the needed character to really set anything right, any more than loy, or the other cronies.. won't happen. I think they honestly don't have the capacity to consider what they've done without destroying themselves..
That is a lot of baggage to carry into a new "ministry" or endeavor.. I wonder if he remembers screaming at people, practically pimping for vic, slandering somebody who thinks adultery is wrong, as he boldly proclaims "da word"..
I really don't think so. I think it's like Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde.. he could be a nice guy, that some here have met, then turn around, drink some of vic's koolaide.. and turn into a beretta wielding thug..
so Dr. Jeckyl breaks off from der vey, starts a new practice somewhere..
he took so much baggage along with him.. I don't think he is doing anybody a real favor.
WordWolf - Just look at the headline of JJ article. PFAL Piracy - gets attention, that's it. Dirt sales. No Piracy involved whatsoever. But what an attention getting headline.
First, in order to show examples, I would need to show comparisons of sectons of PFAL and WIGP side by side - bad news - violation of copyright.
Not true, Greg (welcome to GS). Analysis of a limited portion of either/both classes for the purpose of comparison is a specific exemption from copyright law. You're protected. That's why we can quote from the PFAL book with impunity, but we can't publish the book.
Second, it would require more working of these materials, sorry to me it's not a worthy endeavor. Been there - done that. We're moving forward.
No direspect intended, but if you're moving forward, why are you defensive about it? I mean, why go out of your way to call JJ a liar? You could have "moved on" by ignoring his site and any comments about it, but you chose instead to speak up because you felt an injustice had been done. That's fine. It's your right. But it's not a sign of "moving forward." It's a sign you've hit a snag that's holding you back, if just a little.
However, we will probably be putting our WIGP foundational class books up for sale on EBAY pretty soon - one has presenter #1 one's personal stamp and signature. Wow - maybe we'll get into the big money then? Cha Ching! Doubt it.
Your instinct serves you well. ;)
Perhaps then we can up sell the Intermediate class books as well. Cha Ching! Doubt it. Anyway if you get them - perhaps you can do the work yourself. How's that for a proposition WordWolf? You do the work dude! Doesn't that make you excited?
"I have a jack, WordWolf, but I'm not going to help you."
Umm, did you mean to send that message? Cuz you sent it.
Just some thoughts. I liked most of Geer's teachings in the early 90s, disputed some, but never had anger or hostility toward the man. When I learned what others said about him, I was saddened.
You know, I can see everyone’s point. Larry, I know you well enough to get where you’re coming from. Whether anyone else can discern it from his posts, I know him to be a kind and gentle man. I also know, no one knows what is in the heart of a man except God and the man himself. We can look at personal experience, the experiences of others, but when it gets down to it, we are responsible for our own actions. We have no control over anyone but ourselves. My ethics may differ from yours, but I don’t feel I have the right to decide the ethics of anyone but me.
What should someone else should do? They have to decide that. Good, bad, or indifferent, we each pave our own way.
Belle, citing one section wherein Paul admitted his past mistakes hardly qualifies as "many times." Also, if we are to believe that Paul was inspired by God to write what he wrote -- then his confession wasn't exactly of his own choosing. God surely had it preserved for our learning but the lesson we learn from that section isn't just about confessing one's mistakes -- the emphasis is on moving on from that point -- doing the will of God.
For the sake of discussion, I wanted to butt in here. I agree that the point of "moving on", from a new starting point or "new birth", is basic to the Christian message Paul teaches. It's what he experienced himself. That experience isn't given a lot of specific detail, but you'd want to count the time from the incident on the "Road to Damascus", to the point in Acts where we see Paul and Barnabas going out from Jerusalem to visit churches. Between those two points is several years, 13 - 17 by estimation. During that time it's safe to assume that Paul went from one extreme viewpoint on Christ and His teachings and followers, to another. In fact, his teaching from that point on is based on what it means to be a follower of a "risen" Christ.
So, my impression is that Paul's change was huge. Paul "went blind" after what happened when He saw Christ. It strikes me as a head-on collision at high speed with a brick wall, concussion included, figuratively speaking.
But maybe not so figuratively really.
Paul had many years to work through whatever he needed to. Was he married? If so, we never read about his wife or any family later. What about his friends, companions? New ones, a new life literally.
Overall the message of Paul's teaching was always informed by who he'd been, I think. Today in our religious world I think we tend to see a recognition of sin, who we 'were" with a rush to become something "new".
So often the people who have the strongest and simplest view of their faith are those who have experienced a deep, tangible "deliverance" in making that passage. There's a clear focus - a person is on their last leg, end of the line, all cards played and Christ enters their life and they see another way, a new beginning, "deliverance" immediately or over time.
The difference between "that" and "this" is recognized and easy to articulate. There's no question about what was wrong or about talking about it, recognizing it.
That's the way it seems Paul approached his new life. What he'd been may have been difficult to look at considering his new direction but he did so.
One thing I can say.. if you REALLY "see the light".. you don't mind if your a** gets kicked in the process of at least attempting to do what's right..
:)
I don't think there are any real shortcuts for some people in some situations..
Eggsalant question Kevlar. Butt Socks are going to be the latest new fashion craze, and will be worn by the biggest names in show biz, come late summer. That is if we can get Paris Hilton on the runway as planned and telling her story. Butt Socks will be the story of the year. Full coverage for the hiney, just where we all need it most!
Butt socks were, are, the reason that Paris Hilton was able to make such an incredible turn around these last few weeks. Although kept secret - until now! - I was able to sneak in a pair of this new clothing-technology to Ms Hilton during her long and tortuous stay in jail, hoping against hope that she would respond to my instructions and wear them for a full 24 hours. Lo and behold, she did! and was almost immediately cured! Like badly applied paint her problems quickly peeled away, and she immediately began to show improvement.
In her case she was so far gone that there were actual side effects - hallucinations, some goiter activity, diarrhea, burning in the urine, and a few other things too personal to mention here.
This accounts for some of the dislocated memories she has, as seen on her Larry King interview where she described how she "read the bible a lot" while in jail, but when asked her favorite passage she appeared distant and couldn't quite remember. It's not her fault!!! The awesome power of the Butt Socks had such a powerful effect on her it will take some time for all of the pieces to come back together. Literally, a mental and emotional "reboot" of her system. This is normal and expected. Unfortunately she used the instructions as a place mat for one of her meals and it was destroyed due to the excessive dribbling of soup - an unusual reaction to the Butt Socks, but as we've seen Ms Hilton had a LOT of healing to do and thanks to the Butt Socks and a little love, she's gotten what she needed! The instructions contain essential information for "Post-B.S." syndrome and how to best handle it.
A full blown national ad campaign is forthcoming but I'm trying to be considerate of Paris's fragile condition.
I consulted a dictionary (but forgot to check the Greek word). Butt is used variously. She was the butt of the joke, butt like a goat, to meddle, the end of a cigar, and other usages. I am thinking this is a multi-purpose garment that can be used for a container, covering, and possibly protection. Hopefully it is stretchy and colorful.
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Larry N Moore
That's a interesting point. However, if a person believes -- really believes -- that they're "called by God" to serve His people then serving those who are looking for something else is a distraction. Geer might be focused on things other than what you're focused on. He might -- I wouldn't really know though.
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Belle
Paul admitted what he had done - many times. He didn't ignore it, deny it or refuse to speak of it.
Can't say that of geer, vee pee and the others of their ilk. Paul also thought he was doing what God wanted him to do. Can't say that either.
Acts 22:3-5
1 Ti 1:13, 15
There's more, but I'm not going to waste my time - y'all know how to use a concordance.
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Ham
Looking at it even BIBLICALLY.. maybe that's why it says an "overseer" is to be BLAMELESS.
What I see in these (not all!) offshoot guys.. with their track record, nobody in their right mind would ordain them for any legitimate position.
Soooo.. what to do?
Ordain YOURSELF.
"You'll be sorrrrrrrry.."
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Larry N Moore
Belle, citing one section wherein Paul admitted his past mistakes hardly qualifies as "many times." Also, if we are to believe that Paul was inspired by God to write what he wrote -- then his confession wasn't exactly of his own choosing. God surely had it preserved for our learning but the lesson we learn from that section isn't just about confessing one's mistakes -- the emphasis is on moving on from that point -- doing the will of God.
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Belle
Actually, I cited two passages, there's a third in the verses prior to this snippet you posted and there is more than just those three - like I said - you're a big boy, you can look the rest up yourself.
So, yah, his opinion IS reflected in scriptures. Just because it doesn't support your argument of ignoring and glossing over the atrocities of geer doesn't mean you're correct.
As to the rest of your argument.... it's just private interpretation and reading into the motives of why Paul wrote what he did - ignoring free will and all the other "rules" you've learned.
You've taken that one verse totally out of context to support a man guilty of some horrific atrocities.
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Gregory A. Hill
Well thanks to you all for the clarification and heads up. I mean it.
I think that my concurring with white dove may have hit a sore spot. Here's my personal review of the PFAL Piracy Article. I don't expect to make too many friends here by publishing it.
PFAL, WIGP, John Juedes and Crap Crap?
Headline - PFAL Piracy.
Go to the dictionary – look up the word piracy – there’s no piracy involved here. Attention getting headline – that’s it. But it gets people to read doesn’t it? You spin it anyway you like.
“Geer hasn't circulated Wierwille's class since TWI cut all ties with him, probably because TWI controls the PFAL tapes.”
Circulated? What does that mean? Perhaps just another well-chosen word? I sat through the Advance Class on Power for Abundant Living at Gartmore House in the summer of 1995 – long after the cut that he mentions.
“Instead, Geer licenses other ex-Wayers to use his recorded Walking in God's Power …”
How does JJ know? Does he have a copy of Chris’ list? I personally know of many Ex-wayers that applied for licenses agreements and did not obtain them. License agreements can be applied for by any legal entity.
“The class is spread over 10 or 11 sessions of about two hours each.”
All of the sessions that I attended were below 2 hours – most all were about 1 hour or less. OK minor point but it makes me wonder if JJ even took WIGP?
“… the context, used before, to whom its addressed, similar or identical, the law of believing, administrations, three days and three nights, Jesus Christ is not God, the mystery, renewed mind speaking in tongues, inhaling holy spirit, and so forth.”
The topic Jesus Christ is not God – is nowhere in the class. You were dead wrong on that one JJ. I’ve already discussed that Paul’s the thorn in the flesh was different. By the Way - I think very different.
“G*er uses all the same "examples" Wierwille used of how no one in the world understands the word except for him-- such as Paul's thorn in the flesh, today in paradise, and four crucified.”
Dead wrong on that one again JJ. Nowhere in the class is it promoted that no one in the world understands the word except for him. Nowhere!
“It's obvious that G*er took all Wierwille's teachings at face value and didn't assess them thoroughly. For instance, he just repeats Wierwille's erroneous definitions of lambano and dechomai, even though they are shallow, false and contradict Biblical usage.”
JJ you're wrong again, the definition for lambano was definitely changed. This article begins to smell after a while.
“Jesus Christ-- A Minor Topic”
Wrong again JJ. The Lord Jesus Christ’s life, death, resurrection, accomplishments and Christ being our Lord is a Major Topic in WIGP. Christ being the Head of The Church is clearly emphasized.
Enough is enough already. I could have added much more to this review. Seems to me that JJ has an agenda of his own to push. This article is full of error. That’s probably a more than polite way to say it. Frankly, after reading this stuff by JJ, I couldn’t trust anything JJ has written.
It was enough info for me to conclude that JJ should have done a bit more work work before he published his crap crap.
I wish God's very best love to you all even JJ.
Gregory A. Hill
North Tulsa County
Summer 2007
PS: I don't make any apologies for Chris. I have heard stories and I know the pain as well. I don't agree with everthing he has taught nor all the decisions he made. I am sure many people have been hurt. But he has clearly written that he has tried to get people to know about Christ - not about Chris. Having suffered the excommunication, I had to go to Christ. The end result is I became a better and stronger human being. Seems his action may have produced the desired result. For me being around Chris was wonderful, but being around Christ is much, much better. That stinky Chris, maybe one of these days I'll go up there to Maine and give him a real spanking.
PPS: By the way, for some of you fellas. I have decided to go ahead and keep my WIGP textbooks. Your request for me to post the differences between PFAL and WIGP helped spark a renewed interest. My conclusion: WIGP may be the finest introductory course in how to study the Bible and learn about God, His Word, Holy Spirit and the Lord Jesus Christ available on the face of the planet today - no matter who produced it.
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Ham
Few more thoughts for Larry about the restitution thing..
Romans 12:18 If it be possible, as much as in you lieth, be at peace with all men.
I think this is a universal truth, that some of these guys are ignoring.
To their own peril.
I've seen some people have some pretty bad practical consequences by not heeding this.. it always seems to have a way to come back and bite a person in the a**.
blaming it on the devil for being "mean" to oneself.. or blaming others is pretty fruitless.
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Larry N Moore
I don't think you really understand my "argument" if you think that Paul's focus in mentioning where he came from (his background) is the emphasis in those passages.
Yeah, well, I suppose my "private interpretation" is no better, nor worse than your private interpretation. We can do a poll to see how many agree with your's as opposed to mine but, I also lack very little confidence in that being objective.I hardly know Geer. I cannot say one way or another if he's guilty of the charges he's been accused of. Frankly, personally, I could really care less if he's guilty or not. I'm just expressing an opinion as anyone else here is doing. If that bothers you -- well -- I don't really care about that either.
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Larry N Moore
Hammeroni, there's really no need to address me in the third person. I'll try to answer any questions (or respond to comments) you have for me. That being said . . .
I don't really understand the point you're trying to make here. If you're suggesting that Geer is not living according the standard expressed in that verse -- I can't say he isn't. I can wonder though, if you are living according to that standard yourself if your agenda is to denigrate or disparage Geer for past mistakes. Do you know what he's currently doing with his life?
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Ham
Larry, I saw that there was at least one post while I was posting. I just quickly edited it so that you knew it was for you.
What he's currently doing is one thing.. what he did before is another.
Only thing I'm suggesting is that there are a WHOLE HECK OF A LOT of people that he is not at peace with.
I'm only one of them. He helped cover up corruption and abuse that if exposed, I would have left in a heartbeat. And that is precisely WHY the junk is and was covered up. He honestly must think that I am merchandise, secondary or tertiary to "da will of gawd".
I am only slightly annoyed.. imagine those who had to put up with his wrath..
Based on his track record, nobody in their right mind would ordain him to even mow the lawn.. let alone teach the bible.. and he himself has let the record stand.
So what to do? Hmmm. Get an honest job.. maybe even go back to school.. or..
ordain yourself. Just break off, start a new organization..
"water seeks it's own level"
I dunno.. maybe it looks a little harsh, but I think politics beats religion here..
can you imagine the furor, if he were to attempt to run for public office?
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Larry N Moore
Hammeroni, you'll have to pardon me if I come across as unsympathetic to your experiences at the hands of Geer (or any former leader of TWI). I'm trying to understand as best I can how people feel and not sharing those feelings at any time in my life doesn't help me do so. IOW -- I cannot discount your feelings nor suggest that they are something you should get beyond -- although I get the sense that that is one of the objectives of this board. Anyways . . .
If you're waiting for Geer to "man up" to his past mistakes you might go to your deathbed with peace being unobtainable. I, myself, don't look for peace from men -- they have a way of disappointing you more than once. It's easier for me just to shrug my shoulders at people who have harmed me than to go after them with expectations I might never realize.
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Ham
Actually, I expect nothing. At least I won't be disappointed.
I personally don't think he has the needed character to really set anything right, any more than loy, or the other cronies.. won't happen. I think they honestly don't have the capacity to consider what they've done without destroying themselves..
That is a lot of baggage to carry into a new "ministry" or endeavor.. I wonder if he remembers screaming at people, practically pimping for vic, slandering somebody who thinks adultery is wrong, as he boldly proclaims "da word"..
I really don't think so. I think it's like Dr. Jeckyl and Mr. Hyde.. he could be a nice guy, that some here have met, then turn around, drink some of vic's koolaide.. and turn into a beretta wielding thug..
so Dr. Jeckyl breaks off from der vey, starts a new practice somewhere..
he took so much baggage along with him.. I don't think he is doing anybody a real favor.
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Raf
Not true, Greg (welcome to GS). Analysis of a limited portion of either/both classes for the purpose of comparison is a specific exemption from copyright law. You're protected. That's why we can quote from the PFAL book with impunity, but we can't publish the book.
No direspect intended, but if you're moving forward, why are you defensive about it? I mean, why go out of your way to call JJ a liar? You could have "moved on" by ignoring his site and any comments about it, but you chose instead to speak up because you felt an injustice had been done. That's fine. It's your right. But it's not a sign of "moving forward." It's a sign you've hit a snag that's holding you back, if just a little.Your instinct serves you well. ;)
"I have a jack, WordWolf, but I'm not going to help you."
Umm, did you mean to send that message? Cuz you sent it.
Just some thoughts. I liked most of Geer's teachings in the early 90s, disputed some, but never had anger or hostility toward the man. When I learned what others said about him, I was saddened.
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another spot
You know, I can see everyone’s point. Larry, I know you well enough to get where you’re coming from. Whether anyone else can discern it from his posts, I know him to be a kind and gentle man. I also know, no one knows what is in the heart of a man except God and the man himself. We can look at personal experience, the experiences of others, but when it gets down to it, we are responsible for our own actions. We have no control over anyone but ourselves. My ethics may differ from yours, but I don’t feel I have the right to decide the ethics of anyone but me.
What should someone else should do? They have to decide that. Good, bad, or indifferent, we each pave our own way.
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socks
For the sake of discussion, I wanted to butt in here. I agree that the point of "moving on", from a new starting point or "new birth", is basic to the Christian message Paul teaches. It's what he experienced himself. That experience isn't given a lot of specific detail, but you'd want to count the time from the incident on the "Road to Damascus", to the point in Acts where we see Paul and Barnabas going out from Jerusalem to visit churches. Between those two points is several years, 13 - 17 by estimation. During that time it's safe to assume that Paul went from one extreme viewpoint on Christ and His teachings and followers, to another. In fact, his teaching from that point on is based on what it means to be a follower of a "risen" Christ.
So, my impression is that Paul's change was huge. Paul "went blind" after what happened when He saw Christ. It strikes me as a head-on collision at high speed with a brick wall, concussion included, figuratively speaking.
But maybe not so figuratively really.
Paul had many years to work through whatever he needed to. Was he married? If so, we never read about his wife or any family later. What about his friends, companions? New ones, a new life literally.
Overall the message of Paul's teaching was always informed by who he'd been, I think. Today in our religious world I think we tend to see a recognition of sin, who we 'were" with a rush to become something "new".
So often the people who have the strongest and simplest view of their faith are those who have experienced a deep, tangible "deliverance" in making that passage. There's a clear focus - a person is on their last leg, end of the line, all cards played and Christ enters their life and they see another way, a new beginning, "deliverance" immediately or over time.
The difference between "that" and "this" is recognized and easy to articulate. There's no question about what was wrong or about talking about it, recognizing it.
That's the way it seems Paul approached his new life. What he'd been may have been difficult to look at considering his new direction but he did so.
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excathedra
nice butt socks
--
i can't even fathom a discussion of psycho geer and an apostle paul in the same thread
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Ham
One thing I can say.. if you REALLY "see the light".. you don't mind if your a** gets kicked in the process of at least attempting to do what's right..
:)
I don't think there are any real shortcuts for some people in some situations..
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Kevlar2000
What the heck are "butt socks"? :unsure: :wacko: :blink:
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socks
Eggsalant question Kevlar. Butt Socks are going to be the latest new fashion craze, and will be worn by the biggest names in show biz, come late summer. That is if we can get Paris Hilton on the runway as planned and telling her story. Butt Socks will be the story of the year. Full coverage for the hiney, just where we all need it most!
Butt socks were, are, the reason that Paris Hilton was able to make such an incredible turn around these last few weeks. Although kept secret - until now! - I was able to sneak in a pair of this new clothing-technology to Ms Hilton during her long and tortuous stay in jail, hoping against hope that she would respond to my instructions and wear them for a full 24 hours. Lo and behold, she did! and was almost immediately cured! Like badly applied paint her problems quickly peeled away, and she immediately began to show improvement.
In her case she was so far gone that there were actual side effects - hallucinations, some goiter activity, diarrhea, burning in the urine, and a few other things too personal to mention here.
This accounts for some of the dislocated memories she has, as seen on her Larry King interview where she described how she "read the bible a lot" while in jail, but when asked her favorite passage she appeared distant and couldn't quite remember. It's not her fault!!! The awesome power of the Butt Socks had such a powerful effect on her it will take some time for all of the pieces to come back together. Literally, a mental and emotional "reboot" of her system. This is normal and expected. Unfortunately she used the instructions as a place mat for one of her meals and it was destroyed due to the excessive dribbling of soup - an unusual reaction to the Butt Socks, but as we've seen Ms Hilton had a LOT of healing to do and thanks to the Butt Socks and a little love, she's gotten what she needed! The instructions contain essential information for "Post-B.S." syndrome and how to best handle it.
A full blown national ad campaign is forthcoming but I'm trying to be considerate of Paris's fragile condition.
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Ham
Inquiring minds perhaps really DON'T want to know..
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another spot
I consulted a dictionary (but forgot to check the Greek word). Butt is used variously. She was the butt of the joke, butt like a goat, to meddle, the end of a cigar, and other usages. I am thinking this is a multi-purpose garment that can be used for a container, covering, and possibly protection. Hopefully it is stretchy and colorful.
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excathedra
ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
socks:
excathedra:nice butt, socks
(please don't report me to the punc people)
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Larry N Moore
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excathedra
i agree, i take it back
and socks's explanation of butt socks was worth it all
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