Gregory...Welcome to the GreaseSpot Cafe...that was quite a "first post"...
Of course, I totally disagree with your description of Chris Geer...I knew him as a mean spirited bus driver who pimped for VPW and got young girls into the back of the motor coach...and I wouldn't trust him any further than I could throw that motor coach...but hey, we all have different perspectives and you're more than welcome here
So, I am sorry Coolchef for what happened – perhaps DA has become a better at counseling now?
The problem is that these guys had to break a whole heck of a lot of yokes before they got it right. If indeed they really do have it "right" at the present.
What I learned through twi, was distrust of any kind of counsellors, period.
I saw the meanness engendered between husband and wife, and usually they came out of "counselling" worse than they entered, especially if they did what the "counsellor" suggested.
One ordained female clergy laid into this guy for ... and when he refused to do what she suggested, she SCREAMED the one size fixes them all accusation- "you're not listening to me because you are POSSESSED". A YEAR and a HALF later, she kinda of admitted that she just MIGHT be wrong.. and she was leading these people in the way of divorce.
This kind of counselling was typical.
I didn't want their counsel. I rather would live with my problems.. no details here, but in my life it had a few consequences. Still, things could have been even worse if I sought them out for their great "wisdom".
I just wanted to respond to some of the posts here on this topic and perhaps tell a real story.
First, I concur with White Dove that certain statements written by JJ are in fact erroneous. Having sit through PFAL and WIGP numerous times, one will find that there are many differences. Perhaps PFAL and WIGP are similar in structure, but there are many differences. After reading the article that White Dove refers to years ago, I really couldn’t trust much of what JJ has written about anything. That’s what happens if you publish erroneous material. You lose credibility.
Again, I ask for ONE EXAMPLE.
Or, are we supposed to believe you without support that what you're saying is true?
(I asked WD for ONE EXAMPLE as well, and I'm still waiting for one. Maybe he'll have the time
to post one soon...)
Second, I have heard from others that Chris and Barbara live in Maine. I do know his home address and know he’s probably got a great view overlooking Lake Sebago. Good for him and Barbara – they deserve the best.
If Chris is doing what I personally witnessed him doing at Gartmore House in 1994 and 1995, then you can be assured that he’s doing everything he knows to do to love God with all his heart, soul, mind and strength. He’s doing all he can to help others by performing the genuine labor of love that is required. No wasted time or motion. I have never seen another “man” work so hard in my life. I suspect that he was and still may be greatly underappreciated. Now he may not like me saying this because he has made it clear that he wants people to know Christ – not Chris.
Chris, your welcome to kick my butt anytime. I miss you and the way you taught God’s Word.
Furthermore, I have never met a teacher of God’s Word come close to the manner and content of what Chris taught at Gartmore House. It was some of the most profound, healing and delivering stuff I have ever heard or witnessed or experienced. That doesn’t mean he doesn’t burp occasionally though. He is human after all. But what an example. What a thing to have witnessed first hand.
Gee, hardly sounds like the same man who did some unspeakable things in twi, in front
of witnesses. I had a positive experience with him myself, but I consider all information, not just
my own experience.
Do you conclude that all personal accounts of negative experiences with him are all lies?
I'm suspicious you do, but won't know until you say one way or the other...
Finally, Coolchef – I am sorry that you D. A. interfered. DA tried to interfere with my marriage to a staff member at Gartmore before we were married. It occurred while eating lunch in the dining area at Gartmore House in the summer 1995. To me, he was out of line. Just one stupid comment after another and it began to grate on me. (Now there’s a real story behind the story that I have never shared with anyone but that isn’t the point. If DA would have approached the situation differently well then …) And perhaps he’s grown more in that category. I hope so.
But anyway, the conversation deteriorated until DA finally popped the real question to my fiancé and me. “Do you want me to give you marriage counseling?” Now this ticked me off. My fiancé responded with - “Well – we’re not married yet.” Who was DA to offer us counseling? I didn’t know him and my wife didn’t know him that well either. Even though DA said they went “Way Way Back,” it was just plain puffed up arrogant BS.
I think the conversation must have become a little loud because Chris Geer, who was sitting a few tables away, then stood up and asked the question for everyone to hear.
What makes us think we’re qualified to counsel people?
The room went silent.
Chris then went on to explain many things that are involved with counseling. But still the question rang in my ears. What makes us think we are so qualified to counsel others?
So, cg WAS aware that corps considered themselves qualified to counsel people,
and considered that objectionable enough to say something,
but not to try to address it with those running the program, to actually try to
put a stop to it as a policy.
Interesting.
DA didn’t bother us anymore after that and I am sure perhaps he learned something. Now if he had approached the situation differently … I certainly didn’t understand the ramifications though.
I repeated the story without naming DA to a married couple after our return to Oklahoma and was responded to with much treachery later on. I had no idea that that particular couple was being counseled by a certain what I would call, “arrogant incompetent boob” that Ste*e Arm*trong had “ordained“ to be in spiritual charge of the state Oklahoma after he left OK. Another one of them stated that he wanted me to start sending my fellowship’s ABS from Tulsa to him shortly after he was “ordained.” I didn’t appreciate the request! WHY was someone in OKC/Norman asking me for all of our ABS? He wasn’t feeding us. My good food was coming from elsewhere.
I suspect that multiple 15 page grievous letters and numerous grievous telephone calls were made behind the scenes to Chris Geer after my conversation with this certain married couple. DA and SA and certain others turn out to be part of what I would call a network of “Way Way Back” types. I am not politically astute and it didn’t really matter to me how far you go “Way Way Back .”
I have learned much since leaving Gartmore House in 1995 and my wife and I are still happily married. But I don’t allow the incompetent boobs in our home anymore and the treachery has ceased. We don’t visit their "sickening fellowships" anymore either. You could go to one feeling great - and then leave feeling ill. A bunch of junk. Thanks a lot Steve.
So, I am sorry Coolchef for what happened – perhaps DA has become a better at counseling now?
Finally, as far as Chris Geer goes, if I died tonight I have seen with my own eyes healing and deliverance from God via his magnificent example, teachings and service. If I died tonight, I have seen with my own eyes what God can do if people will listen and do what God wants them to do. If I died tonight, I have personally seen a man that walked like the men we read about “in the Bible.”
My last "counselling" session with these vey hacks was not by my request. "We KNOW that something is wrong with you. If I were you, I'd spill my guts.."
Hmmm. Forgot to brush my teeth? Wore a shirt with a "devilish" pattern on it to "fellowship"?
Friggin meddlers..
they were trying to MANUFACTURE problems. "Problems" that they could solve with the wave of the magic wand. They were searching under every rock they could to find some point that they could at least appear to their superiors to be "prevailing".
If I made up a bunch of crap, fell to my knees, said with tears in my eyes "you're right. I hear voices, I'm a homo, I'm a Democrat, I belong to PETA.."
they would find a miraculous "cure", and I'd be in der ministry today.
In the real world, I think it is at least slightly unethical to corner somebody, and try to force one's "services" upon them.
Last group that offered any kind of "counselling".. within the last FEW years..
one of the teachings practically implied that if you were a Liberal, if you wouldn't turn "homo", at the least you were "compromised".. as a BIBLE teaching.. no joke.
"we'll counsel you.."
deliverance? what are they gonna do? Cast the Liberal "spirit" out? Let the "spirits" out with a dull bone knife?
Gotta be kidding..
Oh. I HAVE gone to a "real world" counsellor since.. and the difference is like night and day..
This whole "counciling thing" brings to mind an incident...if it weren't so pathetic, it would be funny.
During the time I was married and in the 10th corps, my wife and I went to see one of the top twi leaders for some marriage counciling...(at my wife's insistance)...our "problem" had to do with financial pressures...the advice we were given was to sit and masturbate in front of each other!...I kid you not. My jaw dropped open...
...a couple of weeks later, a fellow 10th corps buddy told me that the same "councilor" had told him and his wife the SAME THING...for an entirely different problem (non sexual in nature)...We looked at each other and started laughing.
In hindsight, I think this twi "leader" (pervert) was fantasizing about people jerking off...and that's about the sum and substance of twi counciling sessions...they had no qualifications whatsoever...zero, ziltch...when it came to counciling anyone.
WordWolf - Just look at the headline of JJ article. PFAL Piracy - gets attention, that's it. Dirt sales. No Piracy involved whatsoever. But what an attention getting headline.
First, in order to show examples, I would need to show comparisons of sectons of PFAL and WIGP side by side - bad news - violation of copyright.
Second, it would require more working of these materials, sorry to me it's not a worthy endeavor. Been there - done that. We're moving forward.
However, we will probably be putting our WIGP foundational class books up for sale on EBAY pretty soon - one has presenter #1 one's personal stamp and signature. Wow - maybe we'll get into the big money then? Cha Ching! Doubt it. Perhaps then we can up sell the Intermediate class books as well. Cha Ching! Doubt it. Anyway if you get them - perhaps you can do the work yourself. How's that for a proposition WordWolf? You do the work dude! Doesn't that make you excited?
My personal experiences with Chris were in 1994-1997. I didn't know much about him before or after that except via GWTs and the newletters. But when I was there - I saw a wonderful example. I worked as volunteer staff for several months in 1995 and I never once heard him raise his voice. And the teachings and services were incredible. He was personally very, very patient and kind and helpful. Something I will never forget.
Those other things you speak of - well I have only heard them second hand via anonymous posters. I never implied that anyone was lying. Seems to me you are overly suspicious and perhaps too critical. A brilliant analytical mind has one great weakness - being too critical. I heard Chris say once that for some people the more they knew the less loving they become. And I have no motive for lying.
I have put my real name on what I have written.
Your third question doesn't make sense. There was no "corps" programs training at Gartmore House from 1994-1995. No one to address except those near. He was very hands off. Teach people the Word and let them make their own decisions. Chris' behavior was exemplary during that time.
Finally, I have also been an object of the wrath of Chris. But that would open a whole new can of worms. Suffice it to say that in 1997, my wife were made officially persona non grata. Excommunication. Removed from the list! The treachery, the accusations, the allegations and treatment by others that followed was most cruel. I heard one of my favorite teachers once say that the two cruelest things he knew of were politics and religion.
I have yet to decide which one it was.
Still, that doesn't invalidate what I saw with my own eyes and what I heard with my own ears during those wonderful years at Gartmore House in 1994-1995.
WordWolf - Just look at the headline of JJ article. PFAL Piracy - gets attention, that's it. Dirt sales. No Piracy involved whatsoever. But what an attention getting headline.
That's open to debate.
Feel free to open the debate.
First, in order to show examples, I would need to show comparisons of sectons of PFAL and WIGP side by side - bad news - violation of copyright.
Small portions of copyrighted material are allowed to be quoted for the purpose of reviews,
and this would qualify as a review.
So long as you cited the sources of the material, it would be completely legal.
But I congratulate you for having a concern for copyright laws-
that's not a mindset that some people display.
Second, it would require more working of these materials, sorry to me it's not a worthy endeavor. Been there - done that. We're moving forward.
But you made an accusation about someone else, claiming that there's original subjects not found in
pfal, which are found in WIGP. When asked to SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM, you're saying that
proving that you yourself are neither mistaken nor lying, you're claiming
"it's not a worthy endeavour."
Me, I consider the integrity of my word worth more than that.
Of course, you're not me, and I'm not you.
However, we will probably be putting our WIGP foundational class books up for sale on EBAY pretty soon - one has presenter #1 one's personal stamp and signature. Wow - maybe we'll get into the big money then? Cha Ching! Doubt it. Perhaps then we can up sell the Intermediate class books as well. Cha Ching! Doubt it. Anyway if you get them - perhaps you can do the work yourself. How's that for a proposition WordWolf? You do the work dude! Doesn't that make you excited?
Not when YOU were the one making the claim.
If I claimed the world was flat, and when you asked me to support my claim,
I responded with telling YOU to do the work,
would that make YOU excited?
The one making the claim is the one to "do the work" and SUPPORT THEIR CLAIM.
My personal experiences with Chris were in 1994-1997. I didn't know much about him before or after that except via GWTs and the newletters. But when I was there - I saw a wonderful example. I worked as volunteer staff for several months in 1995 and I never once heard him raise his voice. And the teachings and services were incredible. He was personally very, very patient and kind and helpful. Something I will never forget.
Those other things you speak of - well I have only heard them second hand via anonymous posters. I never implied that anyone was lying. Seems to me you are overly suspicious and perhaps too critical. A brilliant analytical mind has one great weakness - being too critical. I heard Chris say once that for some people the more they knew the less loving they become. And I have no motive for lying.
I've gotten used to people saying "Reverend X is a wonderful person and all the people who claim
they had negative personal experiences are all liars!"
That's happened A LOT around here. Thus my question.
"Overly suspicious?" No, just not wasting any time, and asking outright.
If you saw this happen all the time, you'd expect it again, too.
And I never asked if YOU were lying, nor suggested it.
However, you're saying you've only heard them "second-hand via anonymous posters".
So, do you think they're lying, or not? Seems like you didn't say one way or the other.
You may have MEANT to be clear one way or the other, but your response was ambiguous,
intentionally or no.
I have put my real name on what I have written.
Your third question doesn't make sense. There was no "corps" programs training at Gartmore House from 1994-1995. No one to address except those near. He was very hands off. Teach people the Word and let them make their own decisions. Chris' behavior was exemplary during that time.
Ok, my fault, I skipped over the year. Right, the final corps at Gartmore were graduated by 1989.
It is curious, though, that he spoke up about it at one point, but remained silent at another point.
Perhaps he reconsidered over the years.
Finally, I have also been an object of the wrath of Chris. But that would open a whole new can of worms. Suffice it to say that in 1997, my wife were made officially persona non grata. Excommunication. Removed from the list! The treachery, the accusations, the allegations and treatment by others that followed was most cruel. I heard one of my favorite teachers once say that the two cruelest things he knew of were politics and religion.
I have yet to decide which one it was.
Still, that doesn't invalidate what I saw with my own eyes and what I heard with my own ears during those wonderful years at Gartmore House in 1994-1995.
Gregory A. Hill
North Tulsa County
Summer 2007
So,
you've ALSO seen him capable of kindness and temperance,
AND ALSO capable of meanness and pettiness.
Neither experience erases the existence of the other.
Doesn't it argue FOR the similar experiences of those who've seen him berate someone
So what's your point? That you're trying to change and we should cut you some slack? Or that you're going to be hard on people regardless and you want to let us know that you don't give a crap if anyone thinks so? You're being too hard on people? So stop.
WordWolf - Just look at the headline of JJ article. PFAL Piracy - gets attention, that's it. Dirt sales. No Piracy involved whatsoever. But what an attention getting headline.
What the heck are "dirt sales"? Or do you mean "dirt sells"? That would make sense.
Of course it's piracy. "Piracy" being a hyperbolic way of saying it's plagiarism, which has been demonstrated so many times that I feel like I'm having flashbcaks.
First, in order to show examples, I would need to show comparisons of sectons of PFAL and WIGP side by side - bad news - violation of copyright.
Wrong. Selected quotes atributed to the author would not violate copyright, nor would descriptions of same.
Second, it would require more working of these materials, sorry to me it's not a worthy endeavor. Been there - done that. We're moving forward.
Right. make an unsupported (or unsupportable) statement and then say that you don't have time to present evidence to back up your assertions. More flashbacks.
...Anyway if you get them - perhaps you can do the work yourself. How's that for a proposition WordWolf? You do the work dude! Doesn't that make you excited?
WordWolf always backs up hiis assertions and positions. Why he should he do your work for you?
OK, here's one example of what I considered different. WordWollf asked for one example. There are many. But remember WordWolf asked for one.
2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
In PFAL - we were taught that Paul's thorn in the flesh was - "People".
In WIGP - we were taught that Paul's thorn in the flesh was - "A Messenger of Satan."
You have to draw your own conclusions here. A messenger can be translated as angel. So we have People vs. an Angel of Satan. Chris doesn't come out and say it. But it's quite different. I also know that Dr. KC Fred Price has taught the same thing later, he saw it as well. Satan had assigned one of his angels to buffet Paul. Evidently Paul was causing such havoc - he needed special attention - So Satan assigned specifically to him one of his angels. Quite different.
For centuries people have wrestled with a thorn in the flesh and what it meant. It became quite clear what it meant in WIGP.
As far as the other stuff about Chris - I don't even know what years he was the coach driver. Heck, I was probably hangin' with the ORU crowd back then. Still just a teen in school. Heck I may have been still in grade school. I know that people can grow and change over time. And Chris was cool when I was around him.
Now I thought I could come and just post my thoughts here. I didn't know I would be grilled and cross examined. You guys are tough. Now can I come and post or not? Is this a free forum where people can just post what they think or not?
You tell me ok? If it is not a place where I can freely post I will not come back. OK?
I think you can post freely here. BUT be aware that many folks were hurt by Chr*s Ge*r and will give you some flack.
I'd pick your battles carefully and be mindful of the difference between what you saw in him and what others saw and experienced. While it may be true that he changed and grew, for some, if not all of the folks he hurt, imagining a real change in the man is difficult at best.
It IS OK to disagree but the politics of this place are that if you don't go with the crowd then some morally superior self appointed do-gooder will flame you. The exact same thing is happening to me right now on another thread. A year ago a woman came on here who claimed to have had sex with VP and had no regrets. GOD did they attack her. Ran her right off this place.
Gregory, you owe us NOTHING. If such and such is your opinion, you have every right to post it.
There's no consensus among posters-we have Christians, non-Christians,
and the Christians cover a wide spectrum of beliefs now.
Speaking for myself, I prefer posters-whether I agree with them or not-
who can document their claims and discuss them,
and can allow for others disagreeing with them respectfully.
Without cheapshots mixed in.
I don't speak for everyone, but that's more common than some people would portray
about the majority of posters.]
OK, here's one example of what I considered different. WordWolf asked for one example. There are many. But remember WordWolf asked for one.
2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
In PFAL - we were taught that Paul's thorn in the flesh was - "People".
In WIGP - we were taught that Paul's thorn in the flesh was - "A Messenger of Satan."
You have to draw your own conclusions here. A messenger can be translated as angel. So we have People vs. an Angel of Satan. Chris doesn't come out and say it. But it's quite different. I also know that Dr. KC Fred Price has taught the same thing later, he saw it as well. Satan had assigned one of his angels to buffet Paul. Evidently Paul was causing such havoc - he needed special attention - So Satan assigned specifically to him one of his angels. Quite different.
For centuries people have wrestled with a thorn in the flesh and what it meant. It became quite clear what it meant in WIGP.
[Technically, this is not identically-taught as pfal. The conclusions are different, and the direction to
get there is different (which is why the conclusion is different.)
However,
the claim before you walked in was how the SUBJECTS of WIGP were all taken from pfal-
how WIGP was DERIVATIVE of pfal and owes its existence and its syllabus to pfal.
WD challenged this claim, and said the SUBJECTS were different.
I asked him to give an example so we could evaluate that and come to our own conclusions,
supporting HIS claim.
You said WD was right, so I asked the same of you, and to support YOUR claim.
Which you did. Which I for one appreciate, and I expect others do as well.
(This isn't unusual behaviour-the request and the support- since all over cyberspace,
messageboards have discussions where claims are supported, discussed, or refuted,
all the time.)
Your support does indeed show that the material is not identical-at least this subject is covered
differently. HOWEVER, the claim was that the subjects are different- and this was indeed a subject
covered in pfal, then covered in WIGP, and that as a direct result of it being in pfal.
Therefore, Juedes' claim is CORRECT as stated, at least as reflected by the evidence presented.
(Pending further evidence.)
However, this doesn't mean the WIGP class is completely identical to pfal.
Rather, it joins the family of pfal clones that began as photocopies of pfal, completely plagiarized
for 90% or more of their contents, which were then later modified with "unique" turns of their own,
based on the doctrine or style of the presenter.
I for one now know a little more on WIGP- that it presented the "thorn in the flesh" as a different
thing than vpw said it was. Which, if either, is correct is a matter of Doctrinal discussion, but that they
are different is on-topic for this discussion, and that much is correct- they are different there.]
As far as the other stuff about Chris - I don't even know what years he was the coach driver. Heck, I was probably hangin' with the ORU crowd back then. Still just a teen in school. Heck I may have been still in grade school. I know that people can grow and change over time. And Chris was cool when I was around him.
[He was cool when I was around him as well. Although you DID mention he tore you one at a
different occasion, which he didn't do to me. Then again, I only saw him a few weeks, under controlled
circumstances. I acknowledge I hardly had a chance to see him under a variety of conditions,
where he could not control the circumstances. Therefore, I have observations-I was watching him
closely when I could-but they are limited observations.]
Now I thought I could come and just post my thoughts here. I didn't know I would be grilled and cross examined. You guys are tough. Now can I come and post or not? Is this a free forum where people can just post what they think or not?
[This is the internet. Welcome to the internet! If you're new to the internet, I recommend catching up on it.
"These forums are meant to be a place of discussion, where ideas and debates are encouraged. We welcome your opinion.
In that light, please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant.
Our forums cover many topics from religious to political. While we are not a religious site, we do embrace discussions in this area.
All are welcome here. However, harassing behavior will result in being banned from the forums. There is no need for personal attacks. If you have a specific problem with a poster, settle it outside of the forum. Threads of that nature will be deleted or sent to the Soap Opera Forum."
Still, that doesn't invalidate what I saw with my own eyes and what I heard with my own ears during those wonderful years at Gartmore House in 1994-1995.
I wouldn't argue with your personal experience.. but.
How is it that these guys who acted as counsellors for darkness, ruined lives, slandered saints.. and did even worse..
it's like they vanished into a wormhole or something, and end up on the other side of the world as a seemingly "nice guy", "man of gawd", "beloved teacher..", "worthy of RESPECT".
I really don't think they are doing anybody any kind of favor.
The evil they did in the past WILL catch up with them, sooner or later. Geer was practically a friggin pimp, a pistol toting thug..
What kind of damage does that really do to the trust a person has in others? "well, I thought he was a nice guy.."
I think without addressing past evil and making restitution, he's just spreading more evil around..
I think without addressing past evil and making restitution
At what point would he be able to stop doing as you suggest and move on? I'm not sure what kind of "restitution" would be satisfactory to everyone and if he failed to satisfy even one person would he qualify for forgiveness for his past wrong-doings? Seems to me, that if a man wanted to move forward with the "things of God" he would better serve God by forgetting his past mistakes. It can drag you down if you don't.
I would suggest if he CANNOT at least ADDRESS his "mistakes", he is not qualified for "office".
People point to the apostle Paul.. well, he was a MURDERER.
He admitted it. He called himself the chief of SINNERS. I can't say he SATISFIED every person he wronged, or every relative of Stephen, or others, or relatives of others he harmed. He admitted he persecuted the Church of God.
I don't see this in some of these other guys.. "I was a pistol bearing thug in a cult, practically a PIMP for der 'man of gawd', I defamed, slandered and worse.."
Instead, they just "move on" with "the GREATNESS(?) of der verd.."
No, I'm not angry, at the moment. It's just an observation.
I don't think he's doing anybody any favors. How would a person feel, to find their best friend was secretly a cannibal, or worse.. these moggie types have too many people following them that eventually may be blindsided with this crap.. and he hasn't cleaned it up.
I see the same thing occur here over and over..
"Well, that wasn't the (fill in the name) that *I* knew.."
Blindsided. So dear mr. moggie has just punched another follower in the stomach..
I would suggest if he CANNOT at least ADDRESS his "mistakes", he is not qualified for "office".
People point to the apostle Paul.. well, he was a MURDERER.
He admitted it. He called himself the chief of SINNERS. I can't say he SATISFIED every person he wronged, or every relative of Stephen, or others, or relatives of others he harmed. He admitted he persecuted the Church of God.
I don't see this in some of these other guys.. "I was a pistol bearing thug in a cult, practically a PIMP for der 'man of gawd', I defamed, slandered and worse.."
Instead, they just "move on" with "the GREATNESS(?) of der verd.."
No, I'm not angry, at the moment. It's just an observation.
I don't think he's doing anybody any favors. How would a person feel, to find their best friend was secretly a cannibal, or worse.. these moggie types have too many people following them that eventually may be blindsided with this crap.. and he hasn't cleaned it up.
I see the same thing occur here over and over..
"Well, that wasn't the (fill in the name) that *I* knew.."
Blindsided. So dear mr. moggie has just punched another follower in the stomach..
Just an observation.
Well, now that you brought up the Apostle Paul I suppose it's relative to bring up what he said in Philippians:
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Even though Paul was a murderer prior to his conversion I don't see where he spent a great deal of time dwelling on it or mentioning it in his writings. Do you think, if he did, that we would have had the revelations he received?
I can appreciate that you're just expressing your opinion. I'm just wondering if your opinion is reflected in Scriptures.
Personally, I think it is kind of cowardly, leaving it to one's followers to explain or rationalize the trail of blood leading to one's door..
That's certainly one way to look at it. Personally, I've found it to be a complete waste of my time trying to defend and/or account for my past mistakes. Some people will never be satisfied even if you did spend your time apologizing for the wrongs you did.
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Gregory...Welcome to the GreaseSpot Cafe...that was quite a "first post"...
Of course, I totally disagree with your description of Chris Geer...I knew him as a mean spirited bus driver who pimped for VPW and got young girls into the back of the motor coach...and I wouldn't trust him any further than I could throw that motor coach...but hey, we all have different perspectives and you're more than welcome here
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Ham
The problem is that these guys had to break a whole heck of a lot of yokes before they got it right. If indeed they really do have it "right" at the present.
What I learned through twi, was distrust of any kind of counsellors, period.
I saw the meanness engendered between husband and wife, and usually they came out of "counselling" worse than they entered, especially if they did what the "counsellor" suggested.
One ordained female clergy laid into this guy for ... and when he refused to do what she suggested, she SCREAMED the one size fixes them all accusation- "you're not listening to me because you are POSSESSED". A YEAR and a HALF later, she kinda of admitted that she just MIGHT be wrong.. and she was leading these people in the way of divorce.
This kind of counselling was typical.
I didn't want their counsel. I rather would live with my problems.. no details here, but in my life it had a few consequences. Still, things could have been even worse if I sought them out for their great "wisdom".
I'd be in a nut house..
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WordWolf
Again, I ask for ONE EXAMPLE.
Or, are we supposed to believe you without support that what you're saying is true?
(I asked WD for ONE EXAMPLE as well, and I'm still waiting for one. Maybe he'll have the time
to post one soon...)
Gee, hardly sounds like the same man who did some unspeakable things in twi, in frontof witnesses. I had a positive experience with him myself, but I consider all information, not just
my own experience.
Do you conclude that all personal accounts of negative experiences with him are all lies?
I'm suspicious you do, but won't know until you say one way or the other...
So, cg WAS aware that corps considered themselves qualified to counsel people,
and considered that objectionable enough to say something,
but not to try to address it with those running the program, to actually try to
put a stop to it as a policy.
Interesting.
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Ham
My last "counselling" session with these vey hacks was not by my request. "We KNOW that something is wrong with you. If I were you, I'd spill my guts.."
Hmmm. Forgot to brush my teeth? Wore a shirt with a "devilish" pattern on it to "fellowship"?
Friggin meddlers..
they were trying to MANUFACTURE problems. "Problems" that they could solve with the wave of the magic wand. They were searching under every rock they could to find some point that they could at least appear to their superiors to be "prevailing".
If I made up a bunch of crap, fell to my knees, said with tears in my eyes "you're right. I hear voices, I'm a homo, I'm a Democrat, I belong to PETA.."
they would find a miraculous "cure", and I'd be in der ministry today.
In the real world, I think it is at least slightly unethical to corner somebody, and try to force one's "services" upon them.
Last group that offered any kind of "counselling".. within the last FEW years..
one of the teachings practically implied that if you were a Liberal, if you wouldn't turn "homo", at the least you were "compromised".. as a BIBLE teaching.. no joke.
"we'll counsel you.."
deliverance? what are they gonna do? Cast the Liberal "spirit" out? Let the "spirits" out with a dull bone knife?
Gotta be kidding..
Oh. I HAVE gone to a "real world" counsellor since.. and the difference is like night and day..
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sprawled out
sometimes, a single sentence is all i need to tell me where a poster is coming from. a snap judgment? i think not.
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GrouchoMarxJr
This whole "counciling thing" brings to mind an incident...if it weren't so pathetic, it would be funny.
During the time I was married and in the 10th corps, my wife and I went to see one of the top twi leaders for some marriage counciling...(at my wife's insistance)...our "problem" had to do with financial pressures...the advice we were given was to sit and masturbate in front of each other!...I kid you not. My jaw dropped open...
...a couple of weeks later, a fellow 10th corps buddy told me that the same "councilor" had told him and his wife the SAME THING...for an entirely different problem (non sexual in nature)...We looked at each other and started laughing.
In hindsight, I think this twi "leader" (pervert) was fantasizing about people jerking off...and that's about the sum and substance of twi counciling sessions...they had no qualifications whatsoever...zero, ziltch...when it came to counciling anyone.
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Ham
Even in the good old days..
A lady came to the limb guy.. hand picked by the vicster himself.. she needed some advice.
"This guy is REALLY REALLY icky. Won't keep his hands off me in twig"
mr. "icky" had some money..
"Haven't we talked about this BEFORE? Do we have to go over all of this AGAIN? WHY DON'T YOU JUST GET LAID AND LOOSEN UP???!!!"
I really wasn't trying to listen.. this was through two solid doors it was so loud.
Counsel?
You have got to be kidding..
I would call them counsellors from hell..
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Gregory A. Hill
Sometimes I can be too hard on people.
WordWolf - Just look at the headline of JJ article. PFAL Piracy - gets attention, that's it. Dirt sales. No Piracy involved whatsoever. But what an attention getting headline.
First, in order to show examples, I would need to show comparisons of sectons of PFAL and WIGP side by side - bad news - violation of copyright.
Second, it would require more working of these materials, sorry to me it's not a worthy endeavor. Been there - done that. We're moving forward.
However, we will probably be putting our WIGP foundational class books up for sale on EBAY pretty soon - one has presenter #1 one's personal stamp and signature. Wow - maybe we'll get into the big money then? Cha Ching! Doubt it. Perhaps then we can up sell the Intermediate class books as well. Cha Ching! Doubt it. Anyway if you get them - perhaps you can do the work yourself. How's that for a proposition WordWolf? You do the work dude! Doesn't that make you excited?
My personal experiences with Chris were in 1994-1997. I didn't know much about him before or after that except via GWTs and the newletters. But when I was there - I saw a wonderful example. I worked as volunteer staff for several months in 1995 and I never once heard him raise his voice. And the teachings and services were incredible. He was personally very, very patient and kind and helpful. Something I will never forget.
Those other things you speak of - well I have only heard them second hand via anonymous posters. I never implied that anyone was lying. Seems to me you are overly suspicious and perhaps too critical. A brilliant analytical mind has one great weakness - being too critical. I heard Chris say once that for some people the more they knew the less loving they become. And I have no motive for lying.
I have put my real name on what I have written.
Your third question doesn't make sense. There was no "corps" programs training at Gartmore House from 1994-1995. No one to address except those near. He was very hands off. Teach people the Word and let them make their own decisions. Chris' behavior was exemplary during that time.
Finally, I have also been an object of the wrath of Chris. But that would open a whole new can of worms. Suffice it to say that in 1997, my wife were made officially persona non grata. Excommunication. Removed from the list! The treachery, the accusations, the allegations and treatment by others that followed was most cruel. I heard one of my favorite teachers once say that the two cruelest things he knew of were politics and religion.
I have yet to decide which one it was.
Still, that doesn't invalidate what I saw with my own eyes and what I heard with my own ears during those wonderful years at Gartmore House in 1994-1995.
Gregory A. Hill
North Tulsa County
Summer 2007
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Oakspear
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WordWolf
That's open to debate.
Feel free to open the debate.
Small portions of copyrighted material are allowed to be quoted for the purpose of reviews,and this would qualify as a review.
So long as you cited the sources of the material, it would be completely legal.
But I congratulate you for having a concern for copyright laws-
that's not a mindset that some people display.
But you made an accusation about someone else, claiming that there's original subjects not found in
pfal, which are found in WIGP. When asked to SUPPORT YOUR CLAIM, you're saying that
proving that you yourself are neither mistaken nor lying, you're claiming
"it's not a worthy endeavour."
Me, I consider the integrity of my word worth more than that.
Of course, you're not me, and I'm not you.
Not when YOU were the one making the claim.If I claimed the world was flat, and when you asked me to support my claim,
I responded with telling YOU to do the work,
would that make YOU excited?
The one making the claim is the one to "do the work" and SUPPORT THEIR CLAIM.
I've gotten used to people saying "Reverend X is a wonderful person and all the people who claim
they had negative personal experiences are all liars!"
That's happened A LOT around here. Thus my question.
"Overly suspicious?" No, just not wasting any time, and asking outright.
If you saw this happen all the time, you'd expect it again, too.
And I never asked if YOU were lying, nor suggested it.
However, you're saying you've only heard them "second-hand via anonymous posters".
So, do you think they're lying, or not? Seems like you didn't say one way or the other.
You may have MEANT to be clear one way or the other, but your response was ambiguous,
intentionally or no.
Ok, my fault, I skipped over the year. Right, the final corps at Gartmore were graduated by 1989.It is curious, though, that he spoke up about it at one point, but remained silent at another point.
Perhaps he reconsidered over the years.
So,
you've ALSO seen him capable of kindness and temperance,
AND ALSO capable of meanness and pettiness.
Neither experience erases the existence of the other.
Doesn't it argue FOR the similar experiences of those who've seen him berate someone
until they were reduced to tears?
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Oakspear
Of course it's piracy. "Piracy" being a hyperbolic way of saying it's plagiarism, which has been demonstrated so many times that I feel like I'm having flashbcaks.
Wrong. Selected quotes atributed to the author would not violate copyright, nor would descriptions of same. Right. make an unsupported (or unsupportable) statement and then say that you don't have time to present evidence to back up your assertions. More flashbacks. WordWolf always backs up hiis assertions and positions. Why he should he do your work for you? Yeah? So what?Link to comment
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Gregory A. Hill
OK, here's one example of what I considered different. WordWollf asked for one example. There are many. But remember WordWolf asked for one.
2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure.
In PFAL - we were taught that Paul's thorn in the flesh was - "People".
In WIGP - we were taught that Paul's thorn in the flesh was - "A Messenger of Satan."
You have to draw your own conclusions here. A messenger can be translated as angel. So we have People vs. an Angel of Satan. Chris doesn't come out and say it. But it's quite different. I also know that Dr. KC Fred Price has taught the same thing later, he saw it as well. Satan had assigned one of his angels to buffet Paul. Evidently Paul was causing such havoc - he needed special attention - So Satan assigned specifically to him one of his angels. Quite different.
For centuries people have wrestled with a thorn in the flesh and what it meant. It became quite clear what it meant in WIGP.
As far as the other stuff about Chris - I don't even know what years he was the coach driver. Heck, I was probably hangin' with the ORU crowd back then. Still just a teen in school. Heck I may have been still in grade school. I know that people can grow and change over time. And Chris was cool when I was around him.
Now I thought I could come and just post my thoughts here. I didn't know I would be grilled and cross examined. You guys are tough. Now can I come and post or not? Is this a free forum where people can just post what they think or not?
You tell me ok? If it is not a place where I can freely post I will not come back. OK?
Peace.
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doojable
I think you can post freely here. BUT be aware that many folks were hurt by Chr*s Ge*r and will give you some flack.
I'd pick your battles carefully and be mindful of the difference between what you saw in him and what others saw and experienced. While it may be true that he changed and grew, for some, if not all of the folks he hurt, imagining a real change in the man is difficult at best.
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johniam
It IS OK to disagree but the politics of this place are that if you don't go with the crowd then some morally superior self appointed do-gooder will flame you. The exact same thing is happening to me right now on another thread. A year ago a woman came on here who claimed to have had sex with VP and had no regrets. GOD did they attack her. Ran her right off this place.
Gregory, you owe us NOTHING. If such and such is your opinion, you have every right to post it.
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Oakspear
yeah...and sometimes the morally inferior flame you...
Since when is challenging an unsupported opinion flaming?
John, you give as good as you get, so get off your high horse.
It's a discussion forum...Link to comment
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WordWolf
[Thanks a lot for replying.
There's no consensus among posters-we have Christians, non-Christians,
and the Christians cover a wide spectrum of beliefs now.
Speaking for myself, I prefer posters-whether I agree with them or not-
who can document their claims and discuss them,
and can allow for others disagreeing with them respectfully.
Without cheapshots mixed in.
I don't speak for everyone, but that's more common than some people would portray
about the majority of posters.]
[Technically, this is not identically-taught as pfal. The conclusions are different, and the direction to
get there is different (which is why the conclusion is different.)
However,
the claim before you walked in was how the SUBJECTS of WIGP were all taken from pfal-
how WIGP was DERIVATIVE of pfal and owes its existence and its syllabus to pfal.
WD challenged this claim, and said the SUBJECTS were different.
I asked him to give an example so we could evaluate that and come to our own conclusions,
supporting HIS claim.
You said WD was right, so I asked the same of you, and to support YOUR claim.
Which you did. Which I for one appreciate, and I expect others do as well.
(This isn't unusual behaviour-the request and the support- since all over cyberspace,
messageboards have discussions where claims are supported, discussed, or refuted,
all the time.)
Your support does indeed show that the material is not identical-at least this subject is covered
differently. HOWEVER, the claim was that the subjects are different- and this was indeed a subject
covered in pfal, then covered in WIGP, and that as a direct result of it being in pfal.
Therefore, Juedes' claim is CORRECT as stated, at least as reflected by the evidence presented.
(Pending further evidence.)
However, this doesn't mean the WIGP class is completely identical to pfal.
Rather, it joins the family of pfal clones that began as photocopies of pfal, completely plagiarized
for 90% or more of their contents, which were then later modified with "unique" turns of their own,
based on the doctrine or style of the presenter.
I for one now know a little more on WIGP- that it presented the "thorn in the flesh" as a different
thing than vpw said it was. Which, if either, is correct is a matter of Doctrinal discussion, but that they
are different is on-topic for this discussion, and that much is correct- they are different there.]
[He was cool when I was around him as well. Although you DID mention he tore you one at adifferent occasion, which he didn't do to me. Then again, I only saw him a few weeks, under controlled
circumstances. I acknowledge I hardly had a chance to see him under a variety of conditions,
where he could not control the circumstances. Therefore, I have observations-I was watching him
closely when I could-but they are limited observations.]
[This is the internet. Welcome to the internet! If you're new to the internet, I recommend catching up on it.
Here's one Flash that explains a little. http://www.albinoblacksheep.com/flash/posting.php
As for this messageboard, anyone is welcome to come and just post their thoughts here,
and the only times the staff interferes (they're a VERY permissive staff) is if a post is overtly ABUSIVE,
or releases information about people who have not consented to be public figures,
or is overtly advertising, pornographic, or otherwise inappropriate for messageboards.
So, you can just post your thoughts here. (Please post them to the appropriate forum- Politics go in the
Political forums, and so on.)
This is the internet. Most messageboards (and all the ones I post at), whenever you post,
your posts are subject to being agreed-with, disagreed-with, discussed, dissected, sneered at,
sneezed at, applauded, lauded, jeered, respected, and otherwise replied-to.
Even the board owner is subject to that- and HIS posts have been agreed-to and disagreed-with,
and he doesn't censor those (except as I explained above). A LOT of boards-including all boards
run by current twi members- if you disagree strenuously or even mildly, your posts may or will be edited
or deleted, and you may be banned.
If you think THIS board is tough, there's a lot of boards where you'd be subject to a lot "freer" speech-
where replies may be-and are-ABUSIVE. We are NOT tough as the internet goes- we're fairly mild,
or middling at worst. There's a balance to strike between "allow everything to be posted with no
restrictions" and "make a harmonious environment even if that means deleting most of the posts
and banning most of the users" that all boards must strike, as determined by their staff, and responded
to by the posters. This board, IMHO, strikes a healthy balance.
You have posted already. You are free to continue to post. Likewise, those who disagree with you are
free to continue to post. You were free to disagree with Juedes, me and others, and nobody pushed for
you to be censored or banned. Likewise, we are free to disagree with you, WD or others, without being
censored or banned. The treatment is even-handed. ]
[You've freely posted before. You freely posted now. You can continue to freely post.
You've contributed to the discussions already, and added to the aggregate knowledge here,
even when there's disagreement.
If "freely post" means "I post and others are not allowed to disagree",
then, no, this is not that kind of board.
You are free to set up your own board and make it against the rules to disagree with you there.
Plenty of people do that.
Don't ask me where they are- even when I'm on board-staff, people can disagree with me all they want
so long as they don't get abusive- and vice versa.
But if that's REALLY what you want, hey, more power to you, go right ahead, it's easy to set one up,
and you can invite whoever you want to it.
Me, I think it would be a shame, and you and we could benefit from you continuing to read and post
here, but my opinion is hardly binding on you or anyone.]
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WordWolf
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"These forums are meant to be a place of discussion, where ideas and debates are encouraged. We welcome your opinion.
In that light, please be courteous to fellow posters. Disagree all you want, but respect the fact that someone else may feel as strongly about their ideas as you do about your own. Please don't make it personal. A lively discussions of ideas is both more polite and more relevant.
Our forums cover many topics from religious to political. While we are not a religious site, we do embrace discussions in this area.
All are welcome here. However, harassing behavior will result in being banned from the forums. There is no need for personal attacks. If you have a specific problem with a poster, settle it outside of the forum. Threads of that nature will be deleted or sent to the Soap Opera Forum."
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Ham
I wouldn't argue with your personal experience.. but.
How is it that these guys who acted as counsellors for darkness, ruined lives, slandered saints.. and did even worse..
it's like they vanished into a wormhole or something, and end up on the other side of the world as a seemingly "nice guy", "man of gawd", "beloved teacher..", "worthy of RESPECT".
I really don't think they are doing anybody any kind of favor.
The evil they did in the past WILL catch up with them, sooner or later. Geer was practically a friggin pimp, a pistol toting thug..
What kind of damage does that really do to the trust a person has in others? "well, I thought he was a nice guy.."
I think without addressing past evil and making restitution, he's just spreading more evil around..
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Larry N Moore
At what point would he be able to stop doing as you suggest and move on? I'm not sure what kind of "restitution" would be satisfactory to everyone and if he failed to satisfy even one person would he qualify for forgiveness for his past wrong-doings? Seems to me, that if a man wanted to move forward with the "things of God" he would better serve God by forgetting his past mistakes. It can drag you down if you don't.
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Ham
Mistakes are one thing..
I would suggest if he CANNOT at least ADDRESS his "mistakes", he is not qualified for "office".
People point to the apostle Paul.. well, he was a MURDERER.
He admitted it. He called himself the chief of SINNERS. I can't say he SATISFIED every person he wronged, or every relative of Stephen, or others, or relatives of others he harmed. He admitted he persecuted the Church of God.
I don't see this in some of these other guys.. "I was a pistol bearing thug in a cult, practically a PIMP for der 'man of gawd', I defamed, slandered and worse.."
Instead, they just "move on" with "the GREATNESS(?) of der verd.."
No, I'm not angry, at the moment. It's just an observation.
I don't think he's doing anybody any favors. How would a person feel, to find their best friend was secretly a cannibal, or worse.. these moggie types have too many people following them that eventually may be blindsided with this crap.. and he hasn't cleaned it up.
I see the same thing occur here over and over..
"Well, that wasn't the (fill in the name) that *I* knew.."
Blindsided. So dear mr. moggie has just punched another follower in the stomach..
Just an observation.
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Larry N Moore
Well, now that you brought up the Apostle Paul I suppose it's relative to bring up what he said in Philippians:
Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Even though Paul was a murderer prior to his conversion I don't see where he spent a great deal of time dwelling on it or mentioning it in his writings. Do you think, if he did, that we would have had the revelations he received?
I can appreciate that you're just expressing your opinion. I'm just wondering if your opinion is reflected in Scriptures.
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Ham
Personally, I think it is kind of cowardly, leaving it to one's followers to explain or rationalize the trail of blood leading to one's door..
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Ham
I could hear somebody saying "what about the apostle PAUL, what about DAVID"..
I could almost hear it coming..
David accepted the responsability for HIS trail of blood.. so did Paul..
These hucksters who cut their teeth on "leadership" in a cult?
Naw. "We're FREE in Christ. Don't you DARE touch MY righteousness with 'baseless' accusations.."
It's almost like they are schizophrenic or something..
One personality pimps and totes a firearm, the other teaches da bible..
That at least makes a little sense to me.
Here we have two, radically different descriptions, of the same person.
And I believe sincerely that both parties are relating what they observed as honestly as possible..
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Larry N Moore
That's certainly one way to look at it. Personally, I've found it to be a complete waste of my time trying to defend and/or account for my past mistakes. Some people will never be satisfied even if you did spend your time apologizing for the wrongs you did.
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