Sidenote--I took PFAL in college, and my hubby's wow family had been directed to live in the college area. Two years later I went wow--and we were directed to find housing in the college area...I think it is because too many adults could see right through the cr@p, but the younger folk did not.
..Another reason that I'm here...I knew WTF happened before I got here...I wanted to see who survived the ship wreck and help to pull them off the beach, half drowned.
I've held more than one crying soul in my arms only to tell them "it's ok"...and cry with them...
I've watched people who arrived on these shores...confused, scared and hurt...hurt badly...only to watch them heal...to grow strong and to begin helping others themselves...this place is an oasis in the storms of mental turmoil...where, when you think nobody understands, you realize that we ALL understand...and you begin to look around and learn...and you realize that you have found a place that is taylor made for your recovery...we are the people that stood next to you at the roa, under the big tent...and we are the same people who now sit at the counter sipping the coffee and telling our tales...and you feel at home...because you know that there are no strangers at the GreaseSpot Cafe...
...peace.
I felt like I had arrived on these shores just like that Groucho. And I can't say I'm the most helpful of folks here but I do know I grew strong and healed tremendously due to this safe haven. And I'll be forever grateful.
The rule is part of the belief system/motive/intent behind the question. I've read romance novels that were more subtle.
This is a question so you can understand
I will speak really slow for you.
Were did I say legitimate?
Implied, not said.
Thanks for the reply it was quite reveling.
Eternal judgement; no waiting. How lucky can I be?
WOW a few years ago I prayed for someone.
So all my daily prayers for and about people I physically interact with don't count? Is your whole life and existence wrapped up in GSC? Sounds like you're in some kind of cult.
quote: I think many of us kept or reverted to an unhealthy child like attitude toward leadership, which is unnatural for--I'll say most--adults. Isn't that the journey of adolescence and the young adult years--to become independent men and women?Many of us worked so hard at being like minded and obedient we stopped thinking for ourselves, bit our tongues said 'yes sir.'
To me it's like being in the military. For that period of time, those soldiers work hard at being 'military tough' and conditioned to salute and say 'yes sir' at the appropriate times. Some desire to be military for life. But many, after their hitch is over, still value the discipline and training they got in the military and certainly they still love their country, but have no trouble making the transition back to civilian life.
Yes, in TWI we were told to be 'committed beyond our lifetime' and saturated with guilt at the thought of not being that committed. It occurs to me that for those who stayed in TWI after the debt purge, homo purge, unproductive evil purge from 1994 on, who got to go into the promised land of the prevailing word...whatever. THAT must be harder to shake off than what me and Jean went through.
I got in TWI at 22, stayed in for 18 years, left 13 years ago. I still value the pfal series teaching and the exposure to that atmosphere and how it caused changes in my life, but just like for military people, my 'hitch' is over. I go to a fellowship with people I knew in TWI but I don't take 'marching orders' from anybody. Coming on GSC regularly reinforces for me that what I learned in TWI was often good.
Ironically, Coming on GSC seems to also reinforce to others that TWI was often bad (to them). SAME BRAND!!!
You've not found me in that camp though as I have stated more than a few times that I received good and still hold fast to it while in twi but I also know the underbelly and depending upon what makes a person up inside that has been successful in taking folks beyond their coping abilities and can take a tad longer to come back to the safe middle in their hearts and mind.
I too had a problem seeing the same things over and over here and avoided this place due it. But I've learned a bit more about the human soul that dwells here and pray I have also learned understanding.
quote: I think many of us kept or reverted to an unhealthy child like attitude toward leadership, which is unnatural for--I'll say most--adults. Isn't that the journey of adolescence and the young adult years--to become independent men and women?Many of us worked so hard at being like minded and obedient we stopped thinking for ourselves, bit our tongues said 'yes sir.'
To me it's like being in the military. For that period of time, those soldiers work hard at being 'military tough' and conditioned to salute and say 'yes sir' at the appropriate times. Some desire to be military for life. But many, after their hitch is over, still value the discipline and training they got in the military and certainly they still love their country, but have no trouble making the transition back to civilian life.
Yes, in TWI we were told to be 'committed beyond our lifetime' and saturated with guilt at the thought of not being that committed. It occurs to me that for those who stayed in TWI after the debt purge, homo purge, unproductive evil purge from 1994 on, who got to go into the promised land of the prevailing word...whatever. THAT must be harder to shake off than what me and Jean went through.
I got in TWI at 22, stayed in for 18 years, left 13 years ago. I still value the pfal series teaching and the exposure to that atmosphere and how it caused changes in my life, but just like for military people, my 'hitch' is over. I go to a fellowship with people I knew in TWI but I don't take 'marching orders' from anybody. Coming on GSC regularly reinforces for me that what I learned in TWI was often good.
Ironically, Coming on GSC seems to also reinforce to others that TWI was often bad (to them). SAME BRAND!!!
John,
I didn't have major bad things happen to me while I was in, but sometimes I'll read something and something from my past will slip into place.
I wouldn't call that a reinforcement; I'd call it an awakening.
There is no right or wrong way for this awakening to happen. Your feelings on your time in does in no way invalidate another person's memories and feelings.
We all came from different backgrounds before we were in. That colored not only our time in but also our exit.
I for one am glad that you shared what you did above. It's so much more interesting than the slapfest that happens when you and other posters lob insults at each other.
People don't fit in nice neat little boxes. There is no "one size fits all" way to move on after "a hitch." Even some military folk end up greatly disliking their time in. Conversely, it doesn't make you evil if you regard your time in and your time since TWI as a basically positive thing.
Some people in the military see battle and come out scarred, others do their time and get out having learned an intense discipline that works in that environment but doesn't work in civilian life. Both sets of people need to learn to function differently than they did before.
I for one am glad that you shared what you did above. It's so much more interesting than the slapfest that happens when you and other posters lob insults at each other.
It is apparent that you and other posters still don't get the point I was trying to make (or don't want to get it). Whatever....shrug.
quote: There is no right or wrong way for this awakening to happen. Your feelings on your time in does in no way invalidate another person's memories and feelings.
We all came from different backgrounds before we were in. That colored not only our time in but also our exit.
I agree. I think some people err by thinking of TWI as nothing but a prison, but, as you said, I never walked in their shoes.
quote: There is no right or wrong way for this awakening to happen. Your feelings on your time in does in no way invalidate another person's memories and feelings.
We all came from different backgrounds before we were in. That colored not only our time in but also our exit.
I agree. I think some people err by thinking of TWI as nothing but a prison, but, as you said, I never walked in their shoes.
And because you never walked in their shoes, you cannot be the ultimate judge of how or if they have erred.
It may have been the ultimate prison for them - a prison of the heart.
I think the worst wars here involve mog/moglette types, expecting some kind of respect. But if you don't expect respect and adulation, you at least won't be disappointed.
I believe this little venue gives people the chance to do what they should have done, and could only do in their dreams in der ministry.. bite back. Look what happened to John Lynn.. put his name and "ministry" up in the spotlight. I'll bet he doesn't know what REALLY happened here, to this day.
I think the worst wars here involve mog/moglette types, expecting some kind of respect. But if you don't expect respect and adulation, you at least won't be disappointed.
I believe this little venue gives people the chance to do what they should have done, and could only do in their dreams in der ministry.. bite back. Look what happened to John Lynn.. put his name and "ministry" up in the spotlight. I'll bet he doesn't know what REALLY happened here, to this day.
And I thought you came back here for the Hazlenut coffee....
Groucho...I was at waydale in those early days (as cathy) I read trans chat after it had closed. I was always drawn to your posts....
In my way brain...I was shocked that you were so harsh...so so everything that we were not supposed to be as good little believers....lol ....Yet everything that you wrote...as difficult as it was for me to accept ....as much as it jarrde me to the bone.....made so much sense.
I loved your posts, though they rattled me every time I read them....lol It was like being nailed between the eyes every time :)
I think that is what is so special about this place.....It really is like being on a journey....we all just seem to be at different points in our travels... the folks who have traveled this path before us is in turn shining a light back to reveal the trail minimalise OUR difficulty of fumbling along in the dark.
The journey of realization from thinking twi is the greatest thing since sliced bread to the gradual dawning of understanding the depths of deception...to the down right hypocracy and cruelty of those who demanded our lives and allegiance.
In my mind it is a journey from bondage to freedom and wholeness.
Thanks Groucho, hills bro as well...excathdra, dot, cat cup and so many many others who have had the courage to tell it like it was all of these years...Those of you who have seen the ugly under belly of the monster that twi kept hidden from the rest of us. It isn`t untill one comes to grips with the true nature of the men and ministry that we can recognise the unhealthy aspects and begin to recover.
It isn`t untill others come forth and tell what happened that we can realise that ir wasn`t just *me* That I didn`t fail because of my lack of spirituality or having blown it.
:) Thanks Ham. I appreciate your support in spite of my being grammatically challenged :)
I`ll say this....that I am through standing approved before anybody ever again....that I refuse to be intimidated into silence for any reason....even if my writing skills are not up to snuff. (I feel like the little twiggy that is being told to sit down and shut up because I am not spiritual enough...all over again) I have spent entirely too many years of my life trying to be what everybody else THOUGHT I should.
Another wonderful thing about being here has been to sift through all of the layers of learned behaviors and manipulated thought processes to finally finding out who *I* am and learning that person isn`t so bad....that the things that I like and enjoy and what I think is important has merit....maybe even learing to like that person a little......and not have a neurotic need to for evry thought to be tailor made to suit somebody ELSES definition of what is approved or appropriate...
I think that through all of the years here of exploring our teachings, examining what we believe, why we behave the way we do....etc...somewhere in all of that I have finally found *me*
Somebody I haven`t seen in decades.
All I know is that I thank God for the way he works through the people here at this site to be a part of one anothers healing.
What each of us brings to the table at an ex way site is up to us individually. Whether it be healing or tearing down and hurt.
I`ll say this....that I am through standing approved before anybody ever again....
Gee...I thought that you stood approved before me ...after all, I did confer you with your doctorate
Why is there an ex-Way site? Specifically this site? Because there are people still "in" who are just a nudge away from getting out, because there are those who, although out, still hold much harmful thinking in their minds and are this close to seeing the great big wonderful world of possibilities out there.
Because no one can hash over and think through the pros and cons of TWI doctrine than ex-wayfers (no disrespect to John Juedes who posts here) and help other ex-wayfers think things through. My NBW wife and parents don't have the background to discuss what we discuss here: you guys and glas do. Even the people who I regularly disagree with have taught me a thing or two or three.
Rascal: Welcome back. Everybody seems to think that me and Jean ran you off this thread even though all this soap opera stuff started because you over reacted to a casual comment I made. I meant what I said; that you can get your pov across no matter how you spell. I wouldn't feel compelled to dispute you so much if you weren't an effective communicator. The following is a recent post on another thread:
quote: I think of the saying "pride comes before a fall" in this context too. If a person sets forth as if they're the final word on a subject they're likely going to be critiqued more strictly. If I make fun of someone else's opinions or ideas and put mine forth as being superior I'm opening myself up to wider criticism, I think. Someone's bound to say "if you're so smart how come you can't spell?" And if my ideas are so grand and important why not take the time to make them readable?
There may not be a relationship between what's written and spelling but if I come off full of myself I'm setting myself up to be taken down a noch. Notch. Naugch.
The comment was not gender specific or poster specific, but when I read stuff like this...
quote: Those that get it will, those that don`t won`t ...shrug
When I read that, I feel as if this is intended to be the final word on the subject and if I don't agree with what I'm supposed to "get" then I'm evil, not a Christian, of the flesh, ad nauseum. Actually, you DO set forth as a sort of 'moral crusader' here. Many posters believe what you believe, yet YOU are the one who's not afraid to tell it like (you feel) it is. It takes some courage to do that. But Jean and myself don't require your respect either.
I was going to say don't mess with us and we won't mess with you, but, c'mon, we're a natural rivalry. Our type of conflict is inevitable. I think it says volumes about GSC that most conflicts like this, derailing as they are, eventually gravitate back to civility.
Stop reading things into my post that are not there. You will either get what I am saying or you won`t. Nothing was said about right or wrong evil or not. There are people that will identify with me and who will understand my meaning.....there are people who wont pure and simple.
By the same token....there are people for whom your posts will ring true....there are people for whom they will be meaningless. No right or wrong, just how you interact with people where people are at, and what you bring to the table here.
I want you to leave me alone PERIOD because you are seemingly unable to discuss the topic at hand with extranious personal attacks that derail the thread.
I have respectfully asked you several times now to leave me alone because your personal bias apparently prevents you from reading and understanding the points that I make without applying some evil twist.
Again....make your OWN points without misrepresenting me or mine.
People can say what the "h" they want to say. No holding back.
Some of us still need to get stuff off our chest. Stuff that we had to hold in while those "a" holes were ramming crap down our throats for years. I'll bet there are twi folks who visit here and are on the edge of telling them to shove it. Hope you figure it out someday.
I'm not perfect and I make mistakes but here is a place where people take you for what you are.
I think one of the valuable things here at GSC is in being able to view conflict from a safe distance--especially for those who were in for a long time and developed habit patterns of 'how high should I jump?' Even if you are involved in the conflict, there is a degree of separation that isn't there in a face melting session. Also, the playing fields here is level, which it never was in TWI.
YES! It is a great thing to be able to see the disagreements happen, and both sides have the ability to speak their mind, even if the other side NEVER agrees... and it's OK to do that. That has taken me a long time to learn - that disagreements are ok, and healthy. Around here they are sometimes silly, too... This site re-affirms for me that it's ok to be human.
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Sidenote--I took PFAL in college, and my hubby's wow family had been directed to live in the college area. Two years later I went wow--and we were directed to find housing in the college area...I think it is because too many adults could see right through the cr@p, but the younger folk did not.
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ChattyKathy
I felt like I had arrived on these shores just like that Groucho. And I can't say I'm the most helpful of folks here but I do know I grew strong and healed tremendously due to this safe haven. And I'll be forever grateful.
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johniam
quote: John
It wasn't a rule it was a question.
The rule is part of the belief system/motive/intent behind the question. I've read romance novels that were more subtle.
This is a question so you can understand
I will speak really slow for you.
Were did I say legitimate?
Implied, not said.
Thanks for the reply it was quite reveling.
Eternal judgement; no waiting. How lucky can I be?
WOW a few years ago I prayed for someone.
So all my daily prayers for and about people I physically interact with don't count? Is your whole life and existence wrapped up in GSC? Sounds like you're in some kind of cult.
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johniam
quote: I think many of us kept or reverted to an unhealthy child like attitude toward leadership, which is unnatural for--I'll say most--adults. Isn't that the journey of adolescence and the young adult years--to become independent men and women?Many of us worked so hard at being like minded and obedient we stopped thinking for ourselves, bit our tongues said 'yes sir.'
To me it's like being in the military. For that period of time, those soldiers work hard at being 'military tough' and conditioned to salute and say 'yes sir' at the appropriate times. Some desire to be military for life. But many, after their hitch is over, still value the discipline and training they got in the military and certainly they still love their country, but have no trouble making the transition back to civilian life.
Yes, in TWI we were told to be 'committed beyond our lifetime' and saturated with guilt at the thought of not being that committed. It occurs to me that for those who stayed in TWI after the debt purge, homo purge, unproductive evil purge from 1994 on, who got to go into the promised land of the prevailing word...whatever. THAT must be harder to shake off than what me and Jean went through.
I got in TWI at 22, stayed in for 18 years, left 13 years ago. I still value the pfal series teaching and the exposure to that atmosphere and how it caused changes in my life, but just like for military people, my 'hitch' is over. I go to a fellowship with people I knew in TWI but I don't take 'marching orders' from anybody. Coming on GSC regularly reinforces for me that what I learned in TWI was often good.
Ironically, Coming on GSC seems to also reinforce to others that TWI was often bad (to them). SAME BRAND!!!
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ChattyKathy
You've not found me in that camp though as I have stated more than a few times that I received good and still hold fast to it while in twi but I also know the underbelly and depending upon what makes a person up inside that has been successful in taking folks beyond their coping abilities and can take a tad longer to come back to the safe middle in their hearts and mind.
I too had a problem seeing the same things over and over here and avoided this place due it. But I've learned a bit more about the human soul that dwells here and pray I have also learned understanding.
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doojable
John,
I didn't have major bad things happen to me while I was in, but sometimes I'll read something and something from my past will slip into place.
I wouldn't call that a reinforcement; I'd call it an awakening.
There is no right or wrong way for this awakening to happen. Your feelings on your time in does in no way invalidate another person's memories and feelings.
We all came from different backgrounds before we were in. That colored not only our time in but also our exit.
I for one am glad that you shared what you did above. It's so much more interesting than the slapfest that happens when you and other posters lob insults at each other.
People don't fit in nice neat little boxes. There is no "one size fits all" way to move on after "a hitch." Even some military folk end up greatly disliking their time in. Conversely, it doesn't make you evil if you regard your time in and your time since TWI as a basically positive thing.
Some people in the military see battle and come out scarred, others do their time and get out having learned an intense discipline that works in that environment but doesn't work in civilian life. Both sets of people need to learn to function differently than they did before.
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Jeaniam
It is apparent that you and other posters still don't get the point I was trying to make (or don't want to get it). Whatever....shrug.
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johniam
quote: There is no right or wrong way for this awakening to happen. Your feelings on your time in does in no way invalidate another person's memories and feelings.
We all came from different backgrounds before we were in. That colored not only our time in but also our exit.
I agree. I think some people err by thinking of TWI as nothing but a prison, but, as you said, I never walked in their shoes.
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doojable
And because you never walked in their shoes, you cannot be the ultimate judge of how or if they have erred.
It may have been the ultimate prison for them - a prison of the heart.
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Ham
I think the worst wars here involve mog/moglette types, expecting some kind of respect. But if you don't expect respect and adulation, you at least won't be disappointed.
I believe this little venue gives people the chance to do what they should have done, and could only do in their dreams in der ministry.. bite back. Look what happened to John Lynn.. put his name and "ministry" up in the spotlight. I'll bet he doesn't know what REALLY happened here, to this day.
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doojable
And I thought you came back here for the Hazlenut coffee....
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Ham
Well, there are a LOT of "nuts" here.. maybe that's really why I keep coming back..
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rascal
Groucho...I was at waydale in those early days (as cathy) I read trans chat after it had closed. I was always drawn to your posts....
In my way brain...I was shocked that you were so harsh...so so everything that we were not supposed to be as good little believers....lol ....Yet everything that you wrote...as difficult as it was for me to accept ....as much as it jarrde me to the bone.....made so much sense.
I loved your posts, though they rattled me every time I read them....lol It was like being nailed between the eyes every time :)
I think that is what is so special about this place.....It really is like being on a journey....we all just seem to be at different points in our travels... the folks who have traveled this path before us is in turn shining a light back to reveal the trail minimalise OUR difficulty of fumbling along in the dark.
The journey of realization from thinking twi is the greatest thing since sliced bread to the gradual dawning of understanding the depths of deception...to the down right hypocracy and cruelty of those who demanded our lives and allegiance.
In my mind it is a journey from bondage to freedom and wholeness.
Thanks Groucho, hills bro as well...excathdra, dot, cat cup and so many many others who have had the courage to tell it like it was all of these years...Those of you who have seen the ugly under belly of the monster that twi kept hidden from the rest of us. It isn`t untill one comes to grips with the true nature of the men and ministry that we can recognise the unhealthy aspects and begin to recover.
It isn`t untill others come forth and tell what happened that we can realise that ir wasn`t just *me* That I didn`t fail because of my lack of spirituality or having blown it.
Thank you all.
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rascal
I neither want nor need your respect Jean. My thoughts are of my own journey to understanding. I will not tailor my post to generate your approval.
Those that get it will, those that don`t won`t ...shrug
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Ham
Rascal, I like your style of writing, don't change a thing.
:)
I think it's a low blow, "well, what you say isn't right. besides, you didn't use Emily Post grammar.."
as if that makes a difference..
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rascal
:) Thanks Ham. I appreciate your support in spite of my being grammatically challenged :)
I`ll say this....that I am through standing approved before anybody ever again....that I refuse to be intimidated into silence for any reason....even if my writing skills are not up to snuff. (I feel like the little twiggy that is being told to sit down and shut up because I am not spiritual enough...all over again) I have spent entirely too many years of my life trying to be what everybody else THOUGHT I should.
Another wonderful thing about being here has been to sift through all of the layers of learned behaviors and manipulated thought processes to finally finding out who *I* am and learning that person isn`t so bad....that the things that I like and enjoy and what I think is important has merit....maybe even learing to like that person a little......and not have a neurotic need to for evry thought to be tailor made to suit somebody ELSES definition of what is approved or appropriate...
I think that through all of the years here of exploring our teachings, examining what we believe, why we behave the way we do....etc...somewhere in all of that I have finally found *me*
Somebody I haven`t seen in decades.
All I know is that I thank God for the way he works through the people here at this site to be a part of one anothers healing.
What each of us brings to the table at an ex way site is up to us individually. Whether it be healing or tearing down and hurt.
I only know that I love you guys and this place.
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Oakspear
Why is there an ex-Way site? Specifically this site? Because there are people still "in" who are just a nudge away from getting out, because there are those who, although out, still hold much harmful thinking in their minds and are this close to seeing the great big wonderful world of possibilities out there.
Because no one can hash over and think through the pros and cons of TWI doctrine than ex-wayfers (no disrespect to John Juedes who posts here) and help other ex-wayfers think things through. My NBW wife and parents don't have the background to discuss what we discuss here: you guys and glas do. Even the people who I regularly disagree with have taught me a thing or two or three.
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johniam
Rascal: Welcome back. Everybody seems to think that me and Jean ran you off this thread even though all this soap opera stuff started because you over reacted to a casual comment I made. I meant what I said; that you can get your pov across no matter how you spell. I wouldn't feel compelled to dispute you so much if you weren't an effective communicator. The following is a recent post on another thread:
quote: I think of the saying "pride comes before a fall" in this context too. If a person sets forth as if they're the final word on a subject they're likely going to be critiqued more strictly. If I make fun of someone else's opinions or ideas and put mine forth as being superior I'm opening myself up to wider criticism, I think. Someone's bound to say "if you're so smart how come you can't spell?" And if my ideas are so grand and important why not take the time to make them readable?
There may not be a relationship between what's written and spelling but if I come off full of myself I'm setting myself up to be taken down a noch. Notch. Naugch.
The comment was not gender specific or poster specific, but when I read stuff like this...
quote: Those that get it will, those that don`t won`t ...shrug
When I read that, I feel as if this is intended to be the final word on the subject and if I don't agree with what I'm supposed to "get" then I'm evil, not a Christian, of the flesh, ad nauseum. Actually, you DO set forth as a sort of 'moral crusader' here. Many posters believe what you believe, yet YOU are the one who's not afraid to tell it like (you feel) it is. It takes some courage to do that. But Jean and myself don't require your respect either.
I was going to say don't mess with us and we won't mess with you, but, c'mon, we're a natural rivalry. Our type of conflict is inevitable. I think it says volumes about GSC that most conflicts like this, derailing as they are, eventually gravitate back to civility.
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rascal
Stop reading things into my post that are not there. You will either get what I am saying or you won`t. Nothing was said about right or wrong evil or not. There are people that will identify with me and who will understand my meaning.....there are people who wont pure and simple.
By the same token....there are people for whom your posts will ring true....there are people for whom they will be meaningless. No right or wrong, just how you interact with people where people are at, and what you bring to the table here.
I want you to leave me alone PERIOD because you are seemingly unable to discuss the topic at hand with extranious personal attacks that derail the thread.
I have respectfully asked you several times now to leave me alone because your personal bias apparently prevents you from reading and understanding the points that I make without applying some evil twist.
Again....make your OWN points without misrepresenting me or mine.
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rascal
I stand corrected oakspear sir. In addition to awarding me my doctorate, you bestowed upon me the most prestigious title *Mistress of Darkness* :)
To YOU I will stand approved, lest you strip me of my honor.
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polar bear
Sorry to interrupt.
I like greasespot.
People can say what the "h" they want to say. No holding back.
Some of us still need to get stuff off our chest. Stuff that we had to hold in while those "a" holes were ramming crap down our throats for years. I'll bet there are twi folks who visit here and are on the edge of telling them to shove it. Hope you figure it out someday.
I'm not perfect and I make mistakes but here is a place where people take you for what you are.
Hooray for the freedom we have here.
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Ham
One reason I like to come back to this place:
I can explore a few new ideas with others. Well, new ideas to me, without getting clubbed with der verd or something like that.
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excathedra
i do think johniam was making an honest effort there and was quite civil in that post
i just don't like when the posts focus on spelling or grammar or "attacks" so to speak. i'd rather see discussion about the subject matter
please don't think i have a handle on it, as i'm sure most of you know
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JavaJane
YES! It is a great thing to be able to see the disagreements happen, and both sides have the ability to speak their mind, even if the other side NEVER agrees... and it's OK to do that. That has taken me a long time to learn - that disagreements are ok, and healthy. Around here they are sometimes silly, too... This site re-affirms for me that it's ok to be human.
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