It's almost like the end of Raiders of the lost ark..
couple of lackeys wheeling CES off into a government junkpile somewhere..
"we have or BEST people at work on it.."
"who are THEY?"
"the BEST people.."
Mornin' Mr. Hamm!
I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for an "official" response in this forum. Three of the "insiders" who were posting here are now being sued for what they posted, so you obviously won't see anything else from them. Though I'm no longer directly involved, I do keep in touch with home office employees (all are still my friends) and they report that CES/STF is still moving forward. Lots of website traffic, Tape of the Month still in demand and going out, Sower still being published, full schedule of events, partnership is up. Guess they must be doing something right. Imagine that!
I know that all of the board members and home office staff have been deeply impacted and shaken by this mess. Many have accounted and asked the forgiveness of EL. They have all had to look at what happened and how they played into it. They are re-assessing "personal prophecy" and the use of the prophetic - particularly to investigate other prophetic ministries and learn the guidelines and accountability they've put into place to protect people from abuse.
Should they put everything on hold for a few months/years, make a huge public proclamation repenting of their sins, completely revise their theological and doctrinal beliefs?? Maybe...maybe not. God knows. Let's see who has "ears to hear" and who does not.
Should they put everything on hold for a few months/years, make a huge public proclamation repenting of their sins, completely revise their theological and doctrinal beliefs?? Maybe...maybe not. God knows. Let's see who has "ears to hear" and who does not.
Well, like you said, I'm not holding my breath here..
I know that all of the board members and home office staff have been deeply impacted and shaken by this mess. Many have accounted and asked the forgiveness of EL. They have all had to look at what happened and how they played into it. They are re-assessing "personal prophecy" and the use of the prophetic - particularly to investigate other prophetic ministries and learn the guidelines and accountability they've put into place to protect people from abuse.
Makes me wonder why it took such a fiasco to get as much change as this..
yeah, like suing those who spoke out against them, and otherwise sweeping it under the carpet lest the rank-and-file get wind of it.
the ces apple didn't fall far from the way tree!
Hey sprawled, thought I'd help you sort out a few things, lest everyone get the wrong impression of what's REALLY going on.
:)
Last I checked, there's only one person doing the suing, and though that person is still on the board, he really has no involvement in day-to-day workings. So the first part of your comment really doesn't apply to CES/STF as a whole. Case in point: I heard that there were options for the individuals being sued (remember, no suits against the ministry to this point) to counter-sue, but they passed.
Not giving public details in the midst of ongoing litigation is hardly the same as sweeping something under the carpet. JWS did allude to the disagreement on the board in a recent Sower intro, but I'm sure it's as far as he dared go lest he's sued too! Many of the "rank-and-file" know what's going on, because they've called the individuals involved to find out. Others have made the choice to just step back and not get involved.
You may say that ongoing litigation isn't a valid excuse for being tight lipped. Perhaps you'd have a different opinion if you were the one on the other end of the lawsuit. Guess we'll never know.
I truly hope that there is a much more open and public accounting/dialogue once the legal storm has passed. I completely agree with you that this stuff should be brought to the light, and it has on a smaller scale. And if it did, if the folks at CES/STF accounted, asked forgiveness and treated people with love from this point forward (as much as is humanly possible, at least!!!), would folks like you let it go, or would you look for something else to harp on? I wonder.
Hamm is correct - they are being sued for *what* they said.
Not everyone here is anonymous. For example, if you look up my profile and read my posts, it's not hard to prove who I am. I did so by design to alleviate any fears that I'm a secret CES/STF operative sent here to snoop and spy and find new ways to abuse and manipulate you unsuspecting folks..... (Please pardon the sarcasm - it's not directed toward you!). There's always IP addresses that can be traced. The three individuals who are being sued all either identified themselves (two of them), or were *outed* by what they said (i.e., when he/she refered a conversation that another GSC member was a part of. Put two-and-two together, and....).
One more thing, the newest trend in the corporate world is to terminate employees for what they say in a blog, post on a forum, display on a video, particuarly if it's critical of their employer or casts the company in a bad light. So not only can you be sued for what you say here, you can be fired for what you say here.
And I think to myself.....what a wonderful world.....
Hey BillyD! Your thoughts on the matter, imo, came across as well reasoned out -- or balanced.
if the folks at CES/STF accounted, asked forgiveness and treated people with love from this point forward (as much as is humanly possible, at least!!!), would folks like you let it go, or would you look for something else to harp on? I wonder.
Trust is a very difficult thing to re-establish once it's shattered. I suppose it helps if you try to put yourself on the other side -- meaning if you were the one who did or said something that put a stumbling stone between yourself and another. I would certainly want someone to trust me again (if I was truly sorry) but, I understand it will take time to build that trusting relationship again. Maybe that's why patience is a fruit of the spirit. We need it.
I've enjoyed reading some of the material coming from CES. Hope they can work things out.
You may say that ongoing litigation isn't a valid excuse for being tight lipped. Perhaps you'd have a different opinion if you were the one on the other end of the lawsuit. Guess we'll never know.
"excuse" is the operative word, here, billy. if it ain't one excuse, it's another. and it's all bs to me. there's plenty that could be said without fear of legal repercussion. but they won't say it--not openly, publicly--because they still operate within a twi-like mindset, no matter what they say or think. and this behavior is proof. trust me, it is NOT what was intended when ces (or more precisely, its predecessor) started.
if the folks at CES/STF accounted, asked forgiveness and treated people with love from this point forward (as much as is humanly possible, at least!!!), would folks like you let it go, or would you look for something else to harp on? I wonder.
you like making assumptions about "folks like [me]," don't you, bill? you don't even know me! but the truth is, we'll never have to worry about it, because they won't do any of the above. if they were gonna, they would've by now.
Not giving public details in the midst of ongoing litigation is hardly the same as sweeping something under the carpet. JWS did allude to the disagreement on the board in a recent Sower intro, but I'm sure it's as far as he dared go lest he's sued too! Many of the "rank-and-file" know what's going on, because they've called the individuals involved to find out. Others have made the choice to just step back and not get involved.
You may say that ongoing litigation isn't a valid excuse for being tight lipped. Perhaps you'd have a different opinion if you were the one on the other end of the lawsuit. Guess we'll never know.
I don't understand the concern CES has with this lawsuit. If CES was just any organization, that would be one thing, but CES claims to know the Word of God, and claims to have Godly prophets. Don't the leadership of CES think God is bigger than any lawsuit? Are they so afraid of lawsuits that they refuse to speak the truth? Isn't that why there are prophets, so the truth is told? Isn't that why we have God's Word? For truth?
And if it did, if the folks at CES/STF accounted, asked forgiveness and treated people with love from this point forward (as much as is humanly possible, at least!!!), would folks like you let it go, or would you look for something else to harp on? I wonder.
I would like it if JAL would apologize for calling the people of Greasespot cowards without love.
I will say it again , maybe some of you will get this, NOW they have issue with proclaiming rumor and what people are saying as hear say and gossip.
and they think it is not how the bible says a christian should behave.
but I remember when that is all they had to start their off shoot and it worked quite well for them at the time , when they both got fired from the way.
I don't understand the concern CES has with this lawsuit. If CES was just any organization, that would be one thing, but CES claims to know the Word of God, and claims to have Godly prophets. Don't the leadership of CES think God is bigger than any lawsuit? Are they so afraid of lawsuits that they refuse to speak the truth? Isn't that why there are prophets, so the truth is told? Isn't that why we have God's Word? For truth?
A few things:
1) To my knowledge, there is currently no lawsuit against CES/STF as an entity. There are currently four lawsuits - two against board members, one against a current employee, and one against a co-founder/former board member. However, because the people being sued are so involved with the ministry, anything said/published in public could not only affect the current lawsuits, but possibly bring about a new lawsuit directly against the ministry.
2) If a lawsuit against the ministry did exist and they ignored it, spoke freely, and lost, wouldn't there be an outcry that they were too arrogant and irresponsible with all of the money donated that would then go to pay an ousted president? I would speculate that in their eyes (and in mine frankly), it is irresponsible to put the ministry in that position. If you ask me, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't!!
I would like it if JAL would apologize for calling the people of Greasespot cowards without love.
I would disagree that he called the "people of Greasespot" cowards. He may have been unloving in his comment, but he was in no way referring to EVERYONE here. There may be people here who deserved that remark, and there are certainly people here who have been FAR less loving that he was in his letter.
That being said: if you were hurt by the comment, I truly hope that you receive the apology you seek. I know that it is not JAL's intention to hurt people.
Well, Billy, you're right, but I'm sorry you are. I guess I wanted the leadership to be stand-up guys, ya know? The kind of men who would say, "Look, here's what's happened, and here's where we are now. I made mistakes and I'm willing to be man enough to take whatever I have coming to me." The kind of men who hold themselves to a higher standard than a court of law, the Word of God.
You're also right about most of what you said regarding JAL. He said only the anonymous were without love or courage, so since I don't use my real name to post, I took it personally. I wonder about your last sentence, though. If JAL doesn't intend to hurt people, why does he do it so often, and so well?
I completely agree with you that this stuff should be brought to the light, and it has on a smaller scale. And if it did, if the folks at CES/STF accounted, asked forgiveness and treated people with love from this point forward (as much as is humanly possible, at least!!!), would folks like you let it go, or would you look for something else to harp on? I wonder.
you like making assumptions about "folks like [me]," don't you, bill? you don't even know me! but the truth is, we'll never have to worry about it, because they won't do any of the above. if they were gonna, they would've by now.
Hiya sprawled out. :)
Perhaps an *assumption* was made about *folks like you all*, but I'm thinking it was a valid one.
Given the track record that GSC posting has concerning CES, it's not hard to discern.
Personally -- I think it was an accurate statement/ observation.
Not trying to denigrate what you said --- but it doesn't take a rocket scientist
to figure out where most of GS posters stand, concerning CES. ;)
Perhaps an *assumption* was made about *folks like you all*, but I'm thinking it was a valid one.
Given the track record that GSC posting has concerning CES, it's not hard to discern.
Personally -- I think it was an accurate statement/ observation.
Not trying to denigrate what you said --- but it doesn't take a rocket scientist
to figure out where most of GS posters stand, concerning CES. ;)
the assumption is that "folks like me" are only interested in finding fault. so it's a bs assumption, especially since billy d doesn't know ME from a rock. the truth is, i had no particular bone to pick with ces until all this stuff happened--i wasn't involved with them, and didn't want to be, but i wasn't against them in any way (though i knew enough about them to know they aren't my cup of meat).
if ces were to truly come clean and ask their people (not outsiders--i don't think they owe us anything) for forgiveness, i'd be the first to applaud them. the problem is, folks like me know that ain't about to happen. and that especially ticks off folks like me, because we know that the original bylaws of the group that became ces were specifically designed to make anyone in a leadership role accountable to the people they serve. and they have obviously subverted that original intent.
In my opinion, if any of these actions by Mark Graeser go to a trial, there isn't any way he wins. Deframation of character? How so? That will be a really interesting presentation, especally since he was the President of CES. Graeser has a lot more to lose by this going to trial then anyone he is suing and from a biblical point, he is flat out wrong.
In my opinion, there's a certain trait that I've noticed with some of those whom have been associated with TWI, kind of like some sort of weenie factor.
I don't know if it has anything to do with these lawsuits or not, but it's a trait of some, I've seen it pop up from time to time with certain individuals, where it's a kind of "you and the world owe me something" attitude. Â It has kind of whiney-weenie-weasily-like characteristics to it, sort of an absence of personal responsibility for their own decisions, actions, or lack thereof.
It's like having an inability to deal with situations and loss, or not getting what you wanted and acting like an immature impetuous child, and then taking the responsibility off yourself and putting it on someone else, like suing them over it...
I dunno...just something I've observed in the past... just my opinion.
Just from an outsider, looking in the "crystal ball" :)
I think MG himself wanted to turn it into a church, something mainstream, believable.. perhaps even reputable. From the few seemingly unrelated ideas that:
He wanted to get some kind of REAL master's degree in some kind of legitimate christian context.. bring some kind of REAL legitimacy to the organization. Kinda "conflicted".. with the current board, and especially CURRENT wife's preclivities to aberrations of the paranormal.
I think the idea was far too "radical" to the remaining "radicals".. They cite M's "personal problems"..
what were they? I would only imagine.. the conflict between him and.. prophetic habits of der dear wife.
but that's just my thoughts. And I offer them, no more reputable than the word of a cwazy squirrel..
I think the REAL mistake was to file the lawsuits. As far as CES "constituency", it only dilutes and discredits any claims that he was attempting to make.
It marks him as "the enemy". The now "outsider".. doing deals with "the devil" i.e. governemt and legal system.
"well, just call JL.. "
I really don't think these are the kind of questions he REALLY is thinking of answering.
"Well, Ham, we oughter agree on the capitial T Truth.."
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dmiller
Hiya Mr. H :)
Would you even listen if an explanation were offered??
Several thoughtful observations have been made here, by those in the know.
Yet you (and others), seem to discount it all as so much *baggage*.
I'm not saying they are right, nor am I saying you are wrong.
Just stating a fact.
Perhaps you prefer The Sounds of Silence,
so you can continue to speculate, eh?
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Billy D
Mornin' Mr. Hamm!
I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for an "official" response in this forum. Three of the "insiders" who were posting here are now being sued for what they posted, so you obviously won't see anything else from them. Though I'm no longer directly involved, I do keep in touch with home office employees (all are still my friends) and they report that CES/STF is still moving forward. Lots of website traffic, Tape of the Month still in demand and going out, Sower still being published, full schedule of events, partnership is up. Guess they must be doing something right. Imagine that!
I know that all of the board members and home office staff have been deeply impacted and shaken by this mess. Many have accounted and asked the forgiveness of EL. They have all had to look at what happened and how they played into it. They are re-assessing "personal prophecy" and the use of the prophetic - particularly to investigate other prophetic ministries and learn the guidelines and accountability they've put into place to protect people from abuse.
Should they put everything on hold for a few months/years, make a huge public proclamation repenting of their sins, completely revise their theological and doctrinal beliefs?? Maybe...maybe not. God knows. Let's see who has "ears to hear" and who does not.
Thanks!
~B
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Ham
Makes me wonder why it took such a fiasco to get as much change as this..
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sprawled out
yeah, like suing those who spoke out against them, and otherwise sweeping it under the carpet lest the rank-and-file get wind of it.
the ces apple didn't fall far from the way tree!
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thankgodifinallywokeup
...so people can be sued for posting at gsc?
how did they know who the people were?
isn't everyone anonymous here?
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Ham
I think they were sued for WHAT they said about the Grae*ers, not that they necessarily posted here.
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Billy D
Hey sprawled, thought I'd help you sort out a few things, lest everyone get the wrong impression of what's REALLY going on.
:)
Last I checked, there's only one person doing the suing, and though that person is still on the board, he really has no involvement in day-to-day workings. So the first part of your comment really doesn't apply to CES/STF as a whole. Case in point: I heard that there were options for the individuals being sued (remember, no suits against the ministry to this point) to counter-sue, but they passed.
Not giving public details in the midst of ongoing litigation is hardly the same as sweeping something under the carpet. JWS did allude to the disagreement on the board in a recent Sower intro, but I'm sure it's as far as he dared go lest he's sued too! Many of the "rank-and-file" know what's going on, because they've called the individuals involved to find out. Others have made the choice to just step back and not get involved.
You may say that ongoing litigation isn't a valid excuse for being tight lipped. Perhaps you'd have a different opinion if you were the one on the other end of the lawsuit. Guess we'll never know.
I truly hope that there is a much more open and public accounting/dialogue once the legal storm has passed. I completely agree with you that this stuff should be brought to the light, and it has on a smaller scale. And if it did, if the folks at CES/STF accounted, asked forgiveness and treated people with love from this point forward (as much as is humanly possible, at least!!!), would folks like you let it go, or would you look for something else to harp on? I wonder.
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Billy D
Hamm is correct - they are being sued for *what* they said.
Not everyone here is anonymous. For example, if you look up my profile and read my posts, it's not hard to prove who I am. I did so by design to alleviate any fears that I'm a secret CES/STF operative sent here to snoop and spy and find new ways to abuse and manipulate you unsuspecting folks..... (Please pardon the sarcasm - it's not directed toward you!). There's always IP addresses that can be traced. The three individuals who are being sued all either identified themselves (two of them), or were *outed* by what they said (i.e., when he/she refered a conversation that another GSC member was a part of. Put two-and-two together, and....).
One more thing, the newest trend in the corporate world is to terminate employees for what they say in a blog, post on a forum, display on a video, particuarly if it's critical of their employer or casts the company in a bad light. So not only can you be sued for what you say here, you can be fired for what you say here.
And I think to myself.....what a wonderful world.....
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excathedra
uh oh my boss i catholic ;)
ps. is satori getting sued for his love of spiders ?
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cman
aaahhhh-so spiritual these that go and sue because of loss of revenue they should have never had anyway
love of money here
not about truth
not about abuse
not about plagiarism
money, money, money love of it and not the people who give it
people quit "voluntarily" giving
the "receivers" are not happy .... lol...
lol...lol...lol...and suing over it
too frigging stupid to mention
btw-no offense to anyone named sue!
i wouldn't want to be sued...lol....
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Larry N Moore
Hey BillyD! Your thoughts on the matter, imo, came across as well reasoned out -- or balanced.
Trust is a very difficult thing to re-establish once it's shattered. I suppose it helps if you try to put yourself on the other side -- meaning if you were the one who did or said something that put a stumbling stone between yourself and another. I would certainly want someone to trust me again (if I was truly sorry) but, I understand it will take time to build that trusting relationship again. Maybe that's why patience is a fruit of the spirit. We need it.
I've enjoyed reading some of the material coming from CES. Hope they can work things out.
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sprawled out
"excuse" is the operative word, here, billy. if it ain't one excuse, it's another. and it's all bs to me. there's plenty that could be said without fear of legal repercussion. but they won't say it--not openly, publicly--because they still operate within a twi-like mindset, no matter what they say or think. and this behavior is proof. trust me, it is NOT what was intended when ces (or more precisely, its predecessor) started.
you like making assumptions about "folks like [me]," don't you, bill? you don't even know me! but the truth is, we'll never have to worry about it, because they won't do any of the above. if they were gonna, they would've by now.
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VeganXTC
I would like it if JAL would apologize for calling the people of Greasespot cowards without love.
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pond
I will say it again , maybe some of you will get this, NOW they have issue with proclaiming rumor and what people are saying as hear say and gossip.
and they think it is not how the bible says a christian should behave.
but I remember when that is all they had to start their off shoot and it worked quite well for them at the time , when they both got fired from the way.
so whatever, time allows people to forget or not.
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Billy D
A few things:
1) To my knowledge, there is currently no lawsuit against CES/STF as an entity. There are currently four lawsuits - two against board members, one against a current employee, and one against a co-founder/former board member. However, because the people being sued are so involved with the ministry, anything said/published in public could not only affect the current lawsuits, but possibly bring about a new lawsuit directly against the ministry.
2) If a lawsuit against the ministry did exist and they ignored it, spoke freely, and lost, wouldn't there be an outcry that they were too arrogant and irresponsible with all of the money donated that would then go to pay an ousted president? I would speculate that in their eyes (and in mine frankly), it is irresponsible to put the ministry in that position. If you ask me, they're damned if they do and damned if they don't!!
I would disagree that he called the "people of Greasespot" cowards. He may have been unloving in his comment, but he was in no way referring to EVERYONE here. There may be people here who deserved that remark, and there are certainly people here who have been FAR less loving that he was in his letter.
That being said: if you were hurt by the comment, I truly hope that you receive the apology you seek. I know that it is not JAL's intention to hurt people.
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VeganXTC
Well, Billy, you're right, but I'm sorry you are. I guess I wanted the leadership to be stand-up guys, ya know? The kind of men who would say, "Look, here's what's happened, and here's where we are now. I made mistakes and I'm willing to be man enough to take whatever I have coming to me." The kind of men who hold themselves to a higher standard than a court of law, the Word of God.
You're also right about most of what you said regarding JAL. He said only the anonymous were without love or courage, so since I don't use my real name to post, I took it personally. I wonder about your last sentence, though. If JAL doesn't intend to hurt people, why does he do it so often, and so well?
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dmiller
Hiya sprawled out. :)
Perhaps an *assumption* was made about *folks like you all*, but I'm thinking it was a valid one.
Given the track record that GSC posting has concerning CES, it's not hard to discern.
Personally -- I think it was an accurate statement/ observation.
Not trying to denigrate what you said --- but it doesn't take a rocket scientist
to figure out where most of GS posters stand, concerning CES. ;)
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sprawled out
the assumption is that "folks like me" are only interested in finding fault. so it's a bs assumption, especially since billy d doesn't know ME from a rock. the truth is, i had no particular bone to pick with ces until all this stuff happened--i wasn't involved with them, and didn't want to be, but i wasn't against them in any way (though i knew enough about them to know they aren't my cup of meat).
if ces were to truly come clean and ask their people (not outsiders--i don't think they owe us anything) for forgiveness, i'd be the first to applaud them. the problem is, folks like me know that ain't about to happen. and that especially ticks off folks like me, because we know that the original bylaws of the group that became ces were specifically designed to make anyone in a leadership role accountable to the people they serve. and they have obviously subverted that original intent.
folks like me hate that kind of thing.
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now I see
Since it's a matter of public record, who exactly is being sued by whom?
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VeganXTC
JAL, the Theisens, Jeff and Dan are being sued by MG from what I understand.
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Paradiseden
In my opinion, if any of these actions by Mark Graeser go to a trial, there isn't any way he wins. Deframation of character? How so? That will be a really interesting presentation, especally since he was the President of CES. Graeser has a lot more to lose by this going to trial then anyone he is suing and from a biblical point, he is flat out wrong.
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now I see
In my opinion, there's a certain trait that I've noticed with some of those whom have been associated with TWI, kind of like some sort of weenie factor.
I don't know if it has anything to do with these lawsuits or not, but it's a trait of some, I've seen it pop up from time to time with certain individuals, where it's a kind of "you and the world owe me something" attitude. Â It has kind of whiney-weenie-weasily-like characteristics to it, sort of an absence of personal responsibility for their own decisions, actions, or lack thereof.
It's like having an inability to deal with situations and loss, or not getting what you wanted and acting like an immature impetuous child, and then taking the responsibility off yourself and putting it on someone else, like suing them over it...
I dunno...just something I've observed in the past... just my opinion.
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dmiller
:)
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Ham
I dunno..
Just from an outsider, looking in the "crystal ball" :)
I think MG himself wanted to turn it into a church, something mainstream, believable.. perhaps even reputable. From the few seemingly unrelated ideas that:
He wanted to get some kind of REAL master's degree in some kind of legitimate christian context.. bring some kind of REAL legitimacy to the organization. Kinda "conflicted".. with the current board, and especially CURRENT wife's preclivities to aberrations of the paranormal.
I think the idea was far too "radical" to the remaining "radicals".. They cite M's "personal problems"..
what were they? I would only imagine.. the conflict between him and.. prophetic habits of der dear wife.
but that's just my thoughts. And I offer them, no more reputable than the word of a cwazy squirrel..
I think the REAL mistake was to file the lawsuits. As far as CES "constituency", it only dilutes and discredits any claims that he was attempting to make.
It marks him as "the enemy". The now "outsider".. doing deals with "the devil" i.e. governemt and legal system.
"well, just call JL.. "
I really don't think these are the kind of questions he REALLY is thinking of answering.
"Well, Ham, we oughter agree on the capitial T Truth.."
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