I think.. I don't know if I would call it harm, but my kids are finding that I really am quite different without the religious veneer I wore in der ministry.
In a way, I was doing the best I knew to do at the time. I can only hope they don't or won't think I'm some kind of hypocrite.
In the case of my children I think it would be more accurate to say----
"My children are scars with some human on them"
I don't mean to sound flip, but what my children experienced, and what they have become today, is so much a product of what they suffered at the hands of my ex and TWI leadership here in AK as to render an objective viewpoint on my part on this topic virtually impossible.
i think that perhaps one of the deepest scars TWI leaves on children
is something that is shared by most modern religious thought and practice
and that is this wholesale addiction to success, accomplishment, victory, winning, etc...
when young boys are not allowed to fail and deal with loss in life
they grow up to be victory minded men who simply cannot stand losing
they become simply unable to admit failure or ask for forgiveness and change their ways about anything
because they are still on that childhood quest for self-made perfection and self-made immortality
and this is a grave problem in the world today
that fuels greed, revenge, pride, etc...
we see this addiction to victory in our business, politics, relationships, medicine, academics, religion...you name it
it is pretty much off the charts and taking our civilization right off a cliff
most every culture and tradition throughout human history has seen the value of teaching young boys to live with our mortality so that they grow up to be good men
who know how to live and die with grace and grow up to be wise and loving elders
but for the first time in history, it seems, we have millions of adults who were not taught this as children
and this attitude dominates our cultural values and in sewn into most all of our systems
but lacking an effective rite of passage in mainstream cultural attitude, us human spiritual animals will find a way to do something about it anyway...
be it thru self mutilation, drugs and sex and partying and violence ...you name it
teenage suicide (and other self-destructive behavior) is not as common to human history as it is now
of course, many adults blame the kids for such things..or blame the parents (who were once also kids that were not taught to fail)
so...i guess what im saying is that this is much much wider problem than twi
though twi seemed to excel at it...a real pioneer in this type of insanity, ya know?
we see this addiction to victory in our business, politics, relationships, medicine, academics, religion...you name it
it is pretty much off the charts and taking our civilization right off a cliff
Glad I'm not the only one who sees this..
Things today are worse than when I left around 1996.
I remember a few months ago, it was some kind of forum for youth in der vey.. they were as arrogant if not more so than their parents who are still in..
I think they sacrificed their own children to the devil..
What the parents don't realize in this insane "spirit is thicker than blood" scenario, they've really just sacrificed themselves.
I have three grown sons. The oldest believes in God. The two youngest don’t and wouldn’t touch any form of religion with a ten foot pole, thanks to lcm.
It is hard for me to assess long term affects. My sons and I don’t talk about this much. I can observe that they are successful and stable. They are kind and gentle. They have great ethics. Since they are grown I feel it’s necessary for them to make their own choices. I tell them about my choices and why I make them. We live and let live with each other.
If you are feeling guilt about raising them in twi, I understand how you feel. I feel that sometimes too. We do our best as parents. Whether in or out of twi, we would have made at least a few mistakes anyway. We don’t want to be responsible for causing damage to our children because of our choices. We can’t rewrite history.
I remember the time my youngest was being emotionally abused by his teacher. He was twelve and came home from school one day. He sat in my lap and bawled. I was absolutely furious. All my efforts to do something about this were of no avail except that she did back off some. What I did do was teach him coping skills. I knew I could not shelter him from pain all his life. I could teach him how to deal with it when it came and give him my absolute support.
This same son maintained a 4.0 all through school and into college. He completed enough college hours while still in high school to enter as a junior. He was named student of the month his first semester (this is a large college). He is now vice president of the second largest student organization. He plans to go to law school. (OK so I’m proud of him). But better than these accomplishments, he is just a great human being.
My point is, the circumstances (no matter how difficult or painful) of a person’s life don’t necessarily frame the person.
“Is it too late to undo the damage?” Since that isn’t real specific I would just say, believe in them, let them know you believe in them, and say what you can to help empower them in what ever manner is needed. They will still make their own choices.
I think also, with so many different individuals with so many different experiences, I think there is no easy answer.
One thing I can say.. I was OUT at the time my oldest was a teen. That is a real plus.. it seems they interfered in the worst kind of way with teenagers, from what I have observed.
I think, too, at least in the 90's, the scars left on kids is the knowledge that their parents would ship them off, desert them, disown them and cut them out of their lives if TWI told them to.
It's a total violation of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. The need to feel loved - the need to feel safe - the need to feel part of a family - the need to belong - the need for self-respect, self-esteem - to be respected -
Not having that assurance that your parents are there for you no matter what has got to be one of the most fundamental needs in a child's life. The security of unconditional love from one's parents was non-existent among the children I was around. They had this cloud of fear over them that it was possible to screw up so badly that your parents would wish they were in the OT times and could stone you to death for being disobedient.
... but I guess that ties back into the pressure to be "the best" and the perfectionism required from TWI leadership and one's parents. Parents were taught, and expected, to act without natural affection toward their children and those who were the best TWIts were the best at alienating their kids emotionally, mentally, spiritually and especially where parental love was desperately needed.
I realize all parents weren't like this. I'm only speaking from my experience with the families in my area. Heck, the Carrolls (sp?) PLANNED her pregnancy so that she would not be in danger of delivery when a class would be running. Gawd forbid someone in the WC should have a kid while they should be running a class! <_<
The FIRST time we got kicked out of Family Corps training (we got kicked out three times - long story), it was right after LCM had taught that OT parents were expected to stone their disobedient children ... and very shortly after this teaching, I witnessed the Director of Children's Activities giving the same teaching, in a very angry voice, to a group of young children at Rome City, Mini-Corps, as they were called. These kids began crying and were so terrified. Now, if a kid anywhere else in the world, has a bad experience with the baby-sitter, at least they know that eventually Mom or Dad will come and rescue them. In this case, the kids were very afraid of Mr. HuffandPuffman, but even more afraid when their parents arrived to pick them up from the class. When my husband and I reported it, we promptly got the boot. We were told that if our believing was that Mr. H was damaging our children, then in fact this would probably happen - which would be our fault, not his - AND !!! the Family Corps director told us he could not have this on HIS conscience !!! Huh?
Also, we actually did do what you described - we kicked out one of our sons when he was a senior in high school, at the order of our Limb Coordinator. This kid slept in his car, and ate out of dumpsters, as he finished high school, and we didn't see him hardly at all until I broke all the rules and attended his graduation. This is horrible !! And it's NOT the worst thing that happened to him in TWI either. Do I feel guilty? Well, what do you think?
Sir Guess, my dear friend,
While I agree that TWI shoved the idea of superiority / prevailing / victory down the throats of the young people (and all of us) in terms of "our" knowledge of the Word etc being far above everyone else's ... at the same time, they destroyed any sense of self-worth that the kids might have had. In the Family Corps the adults USED the children to practice their confrontation styles on. Kids talked about suicide frequently, they ran away in droves, and the ones with any spunk left in them survived only with the goal of escaping as soon as they were grown up. Outside of the Corps training, I observed the same thing happening in the local fellowships - adults bullying kids as a sort of rehearsal for later bullying adult believers.
Did the parents love their children? Of course, but they feared for the whole family's well-being if they didn't toe the line. How can anyone even question whether TWI is/was a cult?
at the same time, they destroyed any sense of self-worth that the kids might have had.
yeah...i think this is just an extension of that victory attitude, which ran much deeper under the surface of all our stated missions and explicit practices
as if the overall problems of our civilization was condensed into its own mythic tribal sub-sub-sub-CULTure
where failure and weakness was seen as sin and moral inferiority and something that threatens the "spiritual" survival of tribe
horrificly strange how a group with a more-or-less anti-evolutionary stance could encourage such reptilian practices as "weeding out culls"
...to add...it also seems as if this victory-only attitude has any levels to it...so it comes across in a variety of ways that may seem dissimilar
the way a cult does it may be different than the way harvard university may do it...for example
Also, we actually did do what you described - we kicked out one of our sons when he was a senior in high school, at the order of our Limb Coordinator. This kid slept in his car, and ate out of dumpsters, as he finished high school, and we didn't see him hardly at all until I broke all the rules and attended his graduation. This is horrible !! And it's NOT the worst thing that happened to him in TWI either. Do I feel guilty? Well, what do you think?
It's probably a real good thing you didn't reveal the LC's name..
for the LC..
if people don't believe that some of us were brainwashed.. how in the WORLD do you explain something like that..
makes me even more convinced today. Had I stayed in, my oldest would have ended up stone cold dead..
I don't have the words to describe my lack of respect for this vile cult..
I think that I personally only suffered in the area of education. When I wanted to go to college my limb coordinator told me I needed to go wow which was soon followed by corps. I did manage to get a year of junior college in, but when I realized I wasn't "doing anything for God" is when I finally went into the corps. Heck I am 44 and finally getting that real education. But a lot more good resulted than bad. Yeah I have this perfectionist attitude and I condemn myself when I can't keep up with my life, but I am generally happy. i spent 28 years in the Way I would hate to think that nothing good came from that. Actually I refuse to believe that because I have principle in my life that others don't. Honesty and integrity. No matter what others in the way were doing I did learn those qualities.
“Is it too late to undo the damage?” Since that isn’t real specific I would just say, believe in them, let them know you believe in them, and say what you can to help empower them in what ever manner is needed. They will still make their own choices.
I think this is the best advice you can give. You can't take back what has happened. It happened. What you can do is show your children that you believe they can make right choices in their lives. twi didn't teach that anyone could make right choices. Encourage them to be independant people and build them up. That's the best thing for them.
Not learning how to fail--we still struggle with that as adults! Be perfect or don't even attempt...
We left at the end of the nineties and my kids were in elementary school at that time. In their classes, they were the smartest, the best behaved etc, which is great except no one can be perfect all the time. They had big problems with any small failure. One of my kids got a stomach aches at math everyday, simply due to nerves(in second grade) because they had missed some instruction and didn't understand something--and they went to a school that didn't do regular grades. Add that mom was a school teacher...
It is hard for all of us to find balance...it is okay you didn't get an A...but you could have gotten an A...but relax, no one gets a's all the time...well, some kids do...It okay if you're not first chair...Arg. On and on.
I know if the bar is set too high they will get discouraged...but this is something i always have to think about--I can't trust that I'll make the best decision on the fly.
As you recall, we were in FWC with you for three months (the first time for you, the only-one-time-thank God for us), and our son was about 11, I think. He had a god-awful life for several years after that. A lot of this is that when we went to Washington State they were much harder on him. D**id Mi**ner wanted to have him stoned and deeply regretted to us that he couldn't do it. K**hy R**ko screamed at him for eating a piece of cheesecake too quickly and then having the audacity to ask for more (it was only a sliver and she had plenty). And I? Oh, I was a scared little mouse with diabetes newly diagnosed as a result of MY sin, and knew for a certainty that if this child did not listen, remember and obey without question first time every time, I was going to die as a result of my disobedience in not controlling (or maybe throwing out) my son. In the long run, we were commanded to take him down to Pike Place, the big open market in downtown Seattle, and throw him out of the car, drive away, and never give him another thought. We did not. They told us we couldn't come back until we did, we said hasta la vista.
My son's course from then on was difficult. Problems at school, sleazy friends, and once he hit 15, girl and girl and more girls. He graduated with about a 1.7 GPA and he is a very smart kid. He did join the Navy, got married, had a child, got divorced, and is finally beginning to find himself, with the help of his fiancee. We are beginning to forge a new relationship, with caution on all our parts. But as Belle pointed out there is a huge need to belong, to have a family. He is a smart, sweet, charming young man. I pray he will do well.
He is seeking God on his own. He told me a few weeks back that he had faked it all through TWI, hating every minute of it. When we moved back to Ohio we went to an American Baptist Church, and he said he faked it all through that, too. But now, he said, I need God in my life for real and I'm really beginning to get it. I really want to know Him personally.
I think your boy and many others really do stand a chance, because they started out in a decent loving home BEFORE getting so deeply involved in TWI.
I find hope in that verse, "Train a child up in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it". Well, your son and my kids and a lot of others were "blessed" (gag) ... I mean "Lucky" ... enough to have had a solid foundation BEFORE the so-called foundational teachings of the Way.
I worry for the others who were born into the Way. I worry for the young families who are just now having babies in this cult. These little ones are the people who don't have any original reference point of life outside of TWI. So, even if their parents recognize the hypocrisy and devilish ways that TWI operates, and even if these parents have decided to simply wait for better leadership or whatever,
THEIR CHILDREN ARE BEING EXPOSED TO A DEADLY DISEASE, AND THERE IS NO VACCINE. If you are in TWI with kids, forget the polio shots and the tetanus immunizations. Your child is in far more danger just sitting in fellowship or taking PFAL.
It's up to you parents to make up your minds, like WG and her husband did, to love your kids more than you love the Way International, to train them up in the way (not the Way). God entrusted you with a child. Don't let Him down.
Long lasting scars, physically, emotionally, sexually. Many of us were abused in every possible way.
In residence everyone had parental rights, so I could be spanked, beaten, assaulted (verbally and physically), neglected and controlled by whoever decided to. I could be spoken to our beaten for the same crime, depending who caught me doing whatever it was I did or did not do wrong. I had to miss most social events at school so I could go to twig. We were jerked around , all over the country, never able to establish roots in a community. there's a lot more I can say.
It was bad enough before we went into the Corps. But my life became very very difficult, negative and depressing when we went to Rome City. I loved the grounds, made good friends in my peer group but other than that it was pretty much non stop abuse. We coudln't even do our homework. We were the smartest kids in school and we all had bad grades.
My kiddo was in from an infant. By the time kiddo was 4 years old she had the arrogant mindset of any innie. She had heard adults talk about how people were that went to church and believed certain things. How did I know? SHe could spout off just as good as all the adults, with the little attitude of how stupid all these people were. We are still working on the attitude.
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Ham
I think.. I don't know if I would call it harm, but my kids are finding that I really am quite different without the religious veneer I wore in der ministry.
In a way, I was doing the best I knew to do at the time. I can only hope they don't or won't think I'm some kind of hypocrite.
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frank123lol
Not you Mr,Ham,Your kids did and do have alot of respect for you.
Just a hunch on my part.
Long term effects?My daughter born raised in the vey,She turned out fine
has a wicked sense of humor and a unique outlook on life.
Maybe she never made it her own?Good thing if that was the case.
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waysider
Geeze. I don't get it.
According to VP, we were ALL a bunch of "Keeeeds".
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templelady
In the case of my children I think it would be more accurate to say----
"My children are scars with some human on them"
I don't mean to sound flip, but what my children experienced, and what they have become today, is so much a product of what they suffered at the hands of my ex and TWI leadership here in AK as to render an objective viewpoint on my part on this topic virtually impossible.
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sirguessalot
i think that perhaps one of the deepest scars TWI leaves on children
is something that is shared by most modern religious thought and practice
and that is this wholesale addiction to success, accomplishment, victory, winning, etc...
when young boys are not allowed to fail and deal with loss in life
they grow up to be victory minded men who simply cannot stand losing
they become simply unable to admit failure or ask for forgiveness and change their ways about anything
because they are still on that childhood quest for self-made perfection and self-made immortality
and this is a grave problem in the world today
that fuels greed, revenge, pride, etc...
we see this addiction to victory in our business, politics, relationships, medicine, academics, religion...you name it
it is pretty much off the charts and taking our civilization right off a cliff
most every culture and tradition throughout human history has seen the value of teaching young boys to live with our mortality so that they grow up to be good men
who know how to live and die with grace and grow up to be wise and loving elders
but for the first time in history, it seems, we have millions of adults who were not taught this as children
and this attitude dominates our cultural values and in sewn into most all of our systems
but lacking an effective rite of passage in mainstream cultural attitude, us human spiritual animals will find a way to do something about it anyway...
be it thru self mutilation, drugs and sex and partying and violence ...you name it
teenage suicide (and other self-destructive behavior) is not as common to human history as it is now
of course, many adults blame the kids for such things..or blame the parents (who were once also kids that were not taught to fail)
so...i guess what im saying is that this is much much wider problem than twi
though twi seemed to excel at it...a real pioneer in this type of insanity, ya know?
:(
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Ham
Glad I'm not the only one who sees this..
Things today are worse than when I left around 1996.
I remember a few months ago, it was some kind of forum for youth in der vey.. they were as arrogant if not more so than their parents who are still in..
I think they sacrificed their own children to the devil..
What the parents don't realize in this insane "spirit is thicker than blood" scenario, they've really just sacrificed themselves.
Wait till you're old..
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frank123lol
The victory thing,I agree winning has replaced playing the game.
My youngest was very little,they pulled him out of fellowship one time
spanked him,as he was crying I just about came unglued after that,
he and I stayed home.Scars?What do you expect?The way was
every bit as scary as jim jones David Koresh ect......
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another spot
I have three grown sons. The oldest believes in God. The two youngest don’t and wouldn’t touch any form of religion with a ten foot pole, thanks to lcm.
It is hard for me to assess long term affects. My sons and I don’t talk about this much. I can observe that they are successful and stable. They are kind and gentle. They have great ethics. Since they are grown I feel it’s necessary for them to make their own choices. I tell them about my choices and why I make them. We live and let live with each other.
If you are feeling guilt about raising them in twi, I understand how you feel. I feel that sometimes too. We do our best as parents. Whether in or out of twi, we would have made at least a few mistakes anyway. We don’t want to be responsible for causing damage to our children because of our choices. We can’t rewrite history.
I remember the time my youngest was being emotionally abused by his teacher. He was twelve and came home from school one day. He sat in my lap and bawled. I was absolutely furious. All my efforts to do something about this were of no avail except that she did back off some. What I did do was teach him coping skills. I knew I could not shelter him from pain all his life. I could teach him how to deal with it when it came and give him my absolute support.
This same son maintained a 4.0 all through school and into college. He completed enough college hours while still in high school to enter as a junior. He was named student of the month his first semester (this is a large college). He is now vice president of the second largest student organization. He plans to go to law school. (OK so I’m proud of him). But better than these accomplishments, he is just a great human being.
My point is, the circumstances (no matter how difficult or painful) of a person’s life don’t necessarily frame the person.
“Is it too late to undo the damage?” Since that isn’t real specific I would just say, believe in them, let them know you believe in them, and say what you can to help empower them in what ever manner is needed. They will still make their own choices.
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socks
I don't have anything to add to the topic Shifra, sirsuessalot's words hit on something that's of overall concern to me too, though.
Well said, bro'!
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Ham
I think also, with so many different individuals with so many different experiences, I think there is no easy answer.
One thing I can say.. I was OUT at the time my oldest was a teen. That is a real plus.. it seems they interfered in the worst kind of way with teenagers, from what I have observed.
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Belle
I think, too, at least in the 90's, the scars left on kids is the knowledge that their parents would ship them off, desert them, disown them and cut them out of their lives if TWI told them to.
It's a total violation of Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. The need to feel loved - the need to feel safe - the need to feel part of a family - the need to belong - the need for self-respect, self-esteem - to be respected -
Not having that assurance that your parents are there for you no matter what has got to be one of the most fundamental needs in a child's life. The security of unconditional love from one's parents was non-existent among the children I was around. They had this cloud of fear over them that it was possible to screw up so badly that your parents would wish they were in the OT times and could stone you to death for being disobedient.
... but I guess that ties back into the pressure to be "the best" and the perfectionism required from TWI leadership and one's parents. Parents were taught, and expected, to act without natural affection toward their children and those who were the best TWIts were the best at alienating their kids emotionally, mentally, spiritually and especially where parental love was desperately needed.
I realize all parents weren't like this. I'm only speaking from my experience with the families in my area. Heck, the Carrolls (sp?) PLANNED her pregnancy so that she would not be in danger of delivery when a class would be running. Gawd forbid someone in the WC should have a kid while they should be running a class! <_<
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Ham
At best, "children, obey your parents in the lord" belong on the fourth level. Not the first..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow's_hierarchy_of_needs
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Shifra
Belle,
The FIRST time we got kicked out of Family Corps training (we got kicked out three times - long story), it was right after LCM had taught that OT parents were expected to stone their disobedient children ... and very shortly after this teaching, I witnessed the Director of Children's Activities giving the same teaching, in a very angry voice, to a group of young children at Rome City, Mini-Corps, as they were called. These kids began crying and were so terrified. Now, if a kid anywhere else in the world, has a bad experience with the baby-sitter, at least they know that eventually Mom or Dad will come and rescue them. In this case, the kids were very afraid of Mr. HuffandPuffman, but even more afraid when their parents arrived to pick them up from the class. When my husband and I reported it, we promptly got the boot. We were told that if our believing was that Mr. H was damaging our children, then in fact this would probably happen - which would be our fault, not his - AND !!! the Family Corps director told us he could not have this on HIS conscience !!! Huh?
Also, we actually did do what you described - we kicked out one of our sons when he was a senior in high school, at the order of our Limb Coordinator. This kid slept in his car, and ate out of dumpsters, as he finished high school, and we didn't see him hardly at all until I broke all the rules and attended his graduation. This is horrible !! And it's NOT the worst thing that happened to him in TWI either. Do I feel guilty? Well, what do you think?
Sir Guess, my dear friend,
While I agree that TWI shoved the idea of superiority / prevailing / victory down the throats of the young people (and all of us) in terms of "our" knowledge of the Word etc being far above everyone else's ... at the same time, they destroyed any sense of self-worth that the kids might have had. In the Family Corps the adults USED the children to practice their confrontation styles on. Kids talked about suicide frequently, they ran away in droves, and the ones with any spunk left in them survived only with the goal of escaping as soon as they were grown up. Outside of the Corps training, I observed the same thing happening in the local fellowships - adults bullying kids as a sort of rehearsal for later bullying adult believers.
Did the parents love their children? Of course, but they feared for the whole family's well-being if they didn't toe the line. How can anyone even question whether TWI is/was a cult?
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sirguessalot
yeah...i think this is just an extension of that victory attitude, which ran much deeper under the surface of all our stated missions and explicit practices
as if the overall problems of our civilization was condensed into its own mythic tribal sub-sub-sub-CULTure
where failure and weakness was seen as sin and moral inferiority and something that threatens the "spiritual" survival of tribe
horrificly strange how a group with a more-or-less anti-evolutionary stance could encourage such reptilian practices as "weeding out culls"
...to add...it also seems as if this victory-only attitude has any levels to it...so it comes across in a variety of ways that may seem dissimilar
the way a cult does it may be different than the way harvard university may do it...for example
ok...done editing...
and apologies if im being too
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Ham
It's probably a real good thing you didn't reveal the LC's name..
for the LC..
if people don't believe that some of us were brainwashed.. how in the WORLD do you explain something like that..
makes me even more convinced today. Had I stayed in, my oldest would have ended up stone cold dead..
I don't have the words to describe my lack of respect for this vile cult..
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FreeAtLast
I think that I personally only suffered in the area of education. When I wanted to go to college my limb coordinator told me I needed to go wow which was soon followed by corps. I did manage to get a year of junior college in, but when I realized I wasn't "doing anything for God" is when I finally went into the corps. Heck I am 44 and finally getting that real education. But a lot more good resulted than bad. Yeah I have this perfectionist attitude and I condemn myself when I can't keep up with my life, but I am generally happy. i spent 28 years in the Way I would hate to think that nothing good came from that. Actually I refuse to believe that because I have principle in my life that others don't. Honesty and integrity. No matter what others in the way were doing I did learn those qualities.
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excathedra
the only thing i can think of now to help is tons of love and communication
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JavaJane
I think this is the best advice you can give. You can't take back what has happened. It happened. What you can do is show your children that you believe they can make right choices in their lives. twi didn't teach that anyone could make right choices. Encourage them to be independant people and build them up. That's the best thing for them.
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Bramble
Not learning how to fail--we still struggle with that as adults! Be perfect or don't even attempt...
We left at the end of the nineties and my kids were in elementary school at that time. In their classes, they were the smartest, the best behaved etc, which is great except no one can be perfect all the time. They had big problems with any small failure. One of my kids got a stomach aches at math everyday, simply due to nerves(in second grade) because they had missed some instruction and didn't understand something--and they went to a school that didn't do regular grades. Add that mom was a school teacher...
It is hard for all of us to find balance...it is okay you didn't get an A...but you could have gotten an A...but relax, no one gets a's all the time...well, some kids do...It okay if you're not first chair...Arg. On and on.
I know if the bar is set too high they will get discouraged...but this is something i always have to think about--I can't trust that I'll make the best decision on the fly.
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Watered Garden
Shifra,
As you recall, we were in FWC with you for three months (the first time for you, the only-one-time-thank God for us), and our son was about 11, I think. He had a god-awful life for several years after that. A lot of this is that when we went to Washington State they were much harder on him. D**id Mi**ner wanted to have him stoned and deeply regretted to us that he couldn't do it. K**hy R**ko screamed at him for eating a piece of cheesecake too quickly and then having the audacity to ask for more (it was only a sliver and she had plenty). And I? Oh, I was a scared little mouse with diabetes newly diagnosed as a result of MY sin, and knew for a certainty that if this child did not listen, remember and obey without question first time every time, I was going to die as a result of my disobedience in not controlling (or maybe throwing out) my son. In the long run, we were commanded to take him down to Pike Place, the big open market in downtown Seattle, and throw him out of the car, drive away, and never give him another thought. We did not. They told us we couldn't come back until we did, we said hasta la vista.
My son's course from then on was difficult. Problems at school, sleazy friends, and once he hit 15, girl and girl and more girls. He graduated with about a 1.7 GPA and he is a very smart kid. He did join the Navy, got married, had a child, got divorced, and is finally beginning to find himself, with the help of his fiancee. We are beginning to forge a new relationship, with caution on all our parts. But as Belle pointed out there is a huge need to belong, to have a family. He is a smart, sweet, charming young man. I pray he will do well.
He is seeking God on his own. He told me a few weeks back that he had faked it all through TWI, hating every minute of it. When we moved back to Ohio we went to an American Baptist Church, and he said he faked it all through that, too. But now, he said, I need God in my life for real and I'm really beginning to get it. I really want to know Him personally.
WG
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Shifra
WG,
I think your boy and many others really do stand a chance, because they started out in a decent loving home BEFORE getting so deeply involved in TWI.
I find hope in that verse, "Train a child up in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it". Well, your son and my kids and a lot of others were "blessed" (gag) ... I mean "Lucky" ... enough to have had a solid foundation BEFORE the so-called foundational teachings of the Way.
I worry for the others who were born into the Way. I worry for the young families who are just now having babies in this cult. These little ones are the people who don't have any original reference point of life outside of TWI. So, even if their parents recognize the hypocrisy and devilish ways that TWI operates, and even if these parents have decided to simply wait for better leadership or whatever,
THEIR CHILDREN ARE BEING EXPOSED TO A DEADLY DISEASE, AND THERE IS NO VACCINE. If you are in TWI with kids, forget the polio shots and the tetanus immunizations. Your child is in far more danger just sitting in fellowship or taking PFAL.
It's up to you parents to make up your minds, like WG and her husband did, to love your kids more than you love the Way International, to train them up in the way (not the Way). God entrusted you with a child. Don't let Him down.
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Georgio Jessio
Long lasting scars, physically, emotionally, sexually. Many of us were abused in every possible way.
In residence everyone had parental rights, so I could be spanked, beaten, assaulted (verbally and physically), neglected and controlled by whoever decided to. I could be spoken to our beaten for the same crime, depending who caught me doing whatever it was I did or did not do wrong. I had to miss most social events at school so I could go to twig. We were jerked around , all over the country, never able to establish roots in a community. there's a lot more I can say.
It was bad enough before we went into the Corps. But my life became very very difficult, negative and depressing when we went to Rome City. I loved the grounds, made good friends in my peer group but other than that it was pretty much non stop abuse. We coudln't even do our homework. We were the smartest kids in school and we all had bad grades.
More than abundant, yea right!
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penguin
My kiddo was in from an infant. By the time kiddo was 4 years old she had the arrogant mindset of any innie. She had heard adults talk about how people were that went to church and believed certain things. How did I know? SHe could spout off just as good as all the adults, with the little attitude of how stupid all these people were. We are still working on the attitude.
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templelady
They told the little children that children who misbehaved were worthy of being Stoned??????????????????????
Oh dear GOd, please tell me this isn't true.
How incredibly cruel.
I thought TWI couldn't sink any lower in my estimation -- If this is true---I was wrong it canm and has.
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