How did Jesus Christ have a need to walk on the water that was parallel to his wants?
Plus how did Peter have a need parallel to his wants to walk on water?
Ok, I'll bite.
If I recall Jesus was left behind and therefore lacking any other means to get to the boat he had no choice but to walk on the water. He needed to walk on the water because he wanted to hook up with his disciples.
Peter, had a need to believe and therefore wanted to walk on the water to test his believing.
If I recall Jesus was left behind and therefore lacking any other means to get to the boat he had no choice but to walk on the water. He needed to walk on the water because he wanted to hook up with his disciples.
its good to try to answer I tried your answer at first myself
if they were in a fishermen's boat I would bet there were other boats Jesus could of got a ride in to them but if there was no other boats why not just wait until they came back to him
and if Jesus wanted to hook up with his disciples what was the need that could not wait
about the same as I did until I began to see needs and wants do not all ways have to be Parallel
needs and wants having to be parallel is just a Way thing justifield by fleshly thinking but we are to justifield everything by the love of God
so if your want is to move the love of God it does not matter if there a need or not
Jesus Christ wanted to teach how far the love of God will go
I believe I can walk on air and I have tried it but I can only stray up there a few seconds until I see how weak my faith is
I know some will call it just junping while I do jump to get into the air but what that which keeps me up some time longer than other times when height are allways about the same if we were talking about 5 to 10 seconds I might say yes but its about 15 to 25 second when I seem to be the tiredless that is when I stay up longer
but this is just me
why would I have the need to walk on air I would not but I do it because I want to see great things come to pass
my wants are to build my love of God by building my faith
I think any time somebody invokes power, there is a cost, or a consequence. Nothing in the universe is entirely free. Maybe the real key is to leave as small of a footprint as one can. Maybe needs and wants don't HAVE to be the same.. but I think perhaps they should be.
I think the old needs and wants parallel teaching had a different purpose in da ministry. It was often used to justify failure, failure to get "results". It left the fundamental claim that one could believe for practically anything untouched, without blame, and put fault on the one who was praying for next month's rent.
It is very easy to find fault and determine what "need" is, in someone else's life.
The "law" of believing needed quite a few loopholes for when it apparently did not work.
Having your needs and wants parallel is perhaps the stupidest of all twi doctrines...it made no sense and still makes no sense...it is unbiblical and totally made up...
I sometimes think that Wierwille taught this just to see how stupid and gullible his students were.
Roy, in PFAL the Need/Want/Parallel portion was 'parallel with the Word'. Parallel being what seems like an odd word, but actually may be a good one to describe what he was teaching there.
PFAL was teaching that what you need or what you want, or both - those things have to be "parallel" with the Word, or in agreement, harmony, with what the bible teaches. It was contradictory but exactly in the way you're describing.
The impression he gave in PFAL was that need/wants had to be parallel or in harmony with each other. In fact, that is what it sounds like he's teaching part of the time and what many if not most came away with.
PFAL didn't attempt to define what a need or want was, rather that the person defines that. You might need a car, and want a Lexus. So you pray, believe, etc. etc. as taught in PFAL and apply those "5 Keys" to receiving and what you "get" by way of answered prayer is what you "get". His point was illustrated more or less by the stor-ee of the lady and drapes. She needed drapes. She wanted red ones. VPW didn't give a hang about them being red but lo 'n' behold, drapes get hung and they're red. So if that's a need and want situation it illustrated the individual's part in determining the results with their "believing".
Similar to examining any action taken by a person we could ask if there weren't other alternatives and there might be lots of them.
In 1974 while I was at the Way Nash, this question was asked, what exactly did the Need/Want portion mean? And VPW stated to the 4th Corps at that meeting - "parallel with the Word". Part of the confusion we discussed was that in PFAL he moves his hands around, and while he's moving them "over" something as he speaks, it sounds like he actually means something else by what he says. He said to him it had always been obvious.
PFAL was never changed to clarify this, was never changed to clarify anything, so it remained as it was. Emphasis on "was", as PFAL is pretty old in the can at this point.
Beloved Mr. Hammeroni, GrouchoMarxJr, waysider, and socks
God loves us all my dear friend
yes Mr. Hammeroni I seen things like that "It was often used to justify failure, failure to get "results". It left the fundamental claim that one could believe for practically anything untouched, without blame, and put fault on the one who was praying for next month's rent" happen in the Way alot
yes GrouchoMarxJr I some times think that too "I sometimes think that Wierwille taught this just to see how stupid and gullible his students were. " but I still seem to try to make my needs and wants Parallel and see a need for it
yes waysider I do not really want a answer but to check what I am seeing with what others see "I get mixed up sometimes" so do I
yes socks I recall the story of the red drapes and still think on it today PFAL had a lot of things in it that I needed but there were things in it I may of not needed too but I do not try to judge PFAL but I love to rethink what I was taught against what or how I see things today
yes socks it was the right word for what VPW taught but was his teaching right or could it been made better
is needs and wants being parallel just a begining that we can moved past when we live love to the point others people needs and wants come first
I do not have all the answers so I just share what I see and I see needs and wants being parallel does not all ways matter but I see the at the same time it helps to have them parallel
Actually I would say, yes, Roy. For a Christian who wants to follow Christ and the New Testament teaching, there is going to be a desire to harmonize life with what Christ taught and did and what the bible teaches.
I didnt do a good job above, what I'm trying to write is - if you're relating your first post to what PFAL taught, PFAL didn't teach what you seem to be saying it did. PFAL taught of needs and want - parallel with the Word, not parallel with each other. But that was about as clear as mud, the way he ran through it. Still the point was made. It also didn't try to analyze a person's need and want and define or direct it in that segment. That's the example of the red drapes. Regardless of how trite it was, (and I would say it was pretty shallow) the gal GOT her red drapes =
The "greed" was the negative comparison - "Good supplies your need, not your greed".
The idea of trying to direct our hearts' values by the Word - so they're in agreement with how God instructs to live could be said to make our lives "parallel" with the Word. It's definitely not a concept limited to PFAL.
So that "key" as taught in an of itself isn't wrong IMO, although PFAL's teaching was confusing and vague.
The idea of having some order to how we approach knowing and obeying God isn't wrong either, IMO. The way PFAL lists and insists that if you follow them step by step you'll "receive" what you believe for from God is what's incorrect, IMO and the believiing/law part isn't the biggest problem.
My thought process on this goes - if you can't spefiically define what a person's need is, or if what they're praying for is "really' available, there's no way to guarantee a formula will work.
Example - "prosperity" gets taught as a promose of God. How do we define prosperity? A person being provided for by God.
So there's nothing to do there but faithfully pray to God throughout our lives to provide for us.
All of the stuff about getting clear and concerned and that is just practical stuff and works for anyone - any dummy will do that or fail all their life except when stuff just drops in their laps, in which case most Christians praise the Lo'd, it must be from God, pass the hat.
But if each person has to determine in their own hearts what they need and want - and I believe they do - no one else can guarantee it regardless of what "keys' they apply.
Hope this is clearer, and it helps the discussion as it progresses. I gotta get parallel myself now...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
I love that I am going to cut and pasted it on my computer so I can spend some time thinking about it
yes I have a "desire to harmonize life with what Christ taught "
I like this "parallel with the Word, not parallel with each other." and think on this
as I see there is more than one way to be parallel
parallel with spirit fuiths
parallel with spirit needs
parallel with spirit wants
parallel with spirit with fleshly fuiths
parallel with works
maybe the list goes on
yes "Good supplies your need, not your greed". or Godly love
yes "So that "key" as taught in an of itself isn't wrong IMO, although PFAL's teaching was confusing and vague"
but we can write a better understanding within our hearts as we are trying to do here
yes " there's no way to guarantee a formula will work" your right on
I love this statement it must be one of the all time best truth I read or at least it seems that way right now "All of the stuff about getting clear and concerned and that is just practical stuff and works for anyone - any dummy will do that or fail all their life except when stuff just drops in their laps, in which case most Christians praise the Lo'd, it must be from God, pass the hat. "
I believe it will help others as it helps me "Hope this is clearer, and it helps the discussion as it progresses" thanks a lot my friend it has help me
Having your needs and wants parallel is perhaps the stupidest of all twi doctrines...it made no sense and still makes no sense...it is unbiblical and totally made up...
I sometimes think that Wierwille taught this just to see how stupid and gullible his students were.
well groucho i'm a stupid and gullible moronic fool for even thinking that i could pray to GOD for a new 2006 ford f350 diesel dually crew cab long bed pickup truck and actually believe GOD would supply it cause i dont have the money for it and i have never believed in bummin money and that goes back to the 1980's before twi started sayin git outa debt!!but guess what ! i did just that and someone bought me the above truck brand new from the ford dealer,he paid cash!!! i needed a truck (need) and i wanted (want)the type of truck mentioned above. i didnt need dually rear wheels, no one rides in the back seat but i prayed and i got it. i have gotten lots of other stuff over the years by praying to GOD having my want and need parellel! do i need an f650 ? no! could i recieve an f650 from GOD? probably not. i would have to have a commercial drivers license to legally drive it ,expensive commercial insurance,dot registration,it would be a real pain and beyond my need. could i just go out and buy it myself? shure you can do what you want.lets say i have a cessena 172 4 seat airplane and i pray for a bae146 airplane, in my case i would not recieve it from god it is beyond my need , but i could go buy it myself and than wonder what the hell did i just do!!! its very simple and i just explained it . there is no parellel intersecting lines, do you need a house? if you only NEED 4 bedrooms than thats what you pray for, and not 5 or more,it is very simple. as far as dual rear wheels go it mkes the truck extreamly stable in the rear,6 wheels breaking instead of 4,and is the safest way to pull a trailer due to stability.if you think wierwille wanted to see how stupid we are why the hell did he USE up his life doin it? he should've ben out on the harley.by the way ! when i decide i am ready for another motorcycle i am going to pray for another 1984-1986 kawasaki gps550!!! i had one a long time ago, and have ben checking the internet and other places and they are still around (what is available) and a few have ben for sale. you either take the word of GOD you know and go with it or you be a deadbeat and put it and others down.twi had some mean horrible leaders,but we ran them all off and what we got now are loving ,caring,how can i help you leaders that are looking to bless and not hurt. no one who tries to hurt will be tolerated.a lot has changed in the past 7 years.i am not in a leadership role nor do i coordinate a twig,i'm just a lowly,lowly disciple,you could even call me a peon!! but instead of critizing people for being wrong i reconized error when i saw it ,got the correct doctrine and kept building my relationship with GOD . men will let you down!! vp was a man,he made mistakes,i make mistakes,all men make mistakes, he who never makes mistakes should sit where Jesus Christ sits.yes i went back to twi in 2001 after lcm (who had a lot of us kicked out) was sent packin!! this is not my grandfathers ministry!! this is an awsome ministry and we will never allow the devilish kind of leadership creep into this ministry again. it takes the household to keep a watchful eye to keep the crap out.remember regardless of who you fellowship with ,it is up to you weather or not to put up with crap,i hope this helped you,GOD bless you
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Larry N Moore
Ok, I'll bite.
If I recall Jesus was left behind and therefore lacking any other means to get to the boat he had no choice but to walk on the water. He needed to walk on the water because he wanted to hook up with his disciples.
Peter, had a need to believe and therefore wanted to walk on the water to test his believing.
So, how did I do?
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year2027
God first
Beloved Larry N Moore
God loves you my dear friend
lets look at your answer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ok, I'll bite.
If I recall Jesus was left behind and therefore lacking any other means to get to the boat he had no choice but to walk on the water. He needed to walk on the water because he wanted to hook up with his disciples.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
its good to try to answer I tried your answer at first myself
if they were in a fishermen's boat I would bet there were other boats Jesus could of got a ride in to them but if there was no other boats why not just wait until they came back to him
and if Jesus wanted to hook up with his disciples what was the need that could not wait
next part you answer
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Peter, had a need to believe and therefore wanted to walk on the water to test his believing.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
to believe is a need but he was save in the boat that so it looks like temping God more than a need parallel
and if he was afraid I bet he had a weapon on the boat
then why go out Jesus was on his way to Peter
but this is just me and I liked the way you tried
I say love is geater than all needs or wants
next
------------------------------------------------------------------------
So, how did I do?
-----------------------------------------------------------
about the same as I did until I began to see needs and wants do not all ways have to be Parallel
needs and wants having to be parallel is just a Way thing justifield by fleshly thinking but we are to justifield everything by the love of God
so if your want is to move the love of God it does not matter if there a need or not
Jesus Christ wanted to teach how far the love of God will go
I believe I can walk on air and I have tried it but I can only stray up there a few seconds until I see how weak my faith is
I know some will call it just junping while I do jump to get into the air but what that which keeps me up some time longer than other times when height are allways about the same if we were talking about 5 to 10 seconds I might say yes but its about 15 to 25 second when I seem to be the tiredless that is when I stay up longer
but this is just me
why would I have the need to walk on air I would not but I do it because I want to see great things come to pass
my wants are to build my love of God by building my faith
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Ham
Assuming a whole heck of a lot to begin with..
I think any time somebody invokes power, there is a cost, or a consequence. Nothing in the universe is entirely free. Maybe the real key is to leave as small of a footprint as one can. Maybe needs and wants don't HAVE to be the same.. but I think perhaps they should be.
I think the old needs and wants parallel teaching had a different purpose in da ministry. It was often used to justify failure, failure to get "results". It left the fundamental claim that one could believe for practically anything untouched, without blame, and put fault on the one who was praying for next month's rent.
It is very easy to find fault and determine what "need" is, in someone else's life.
The "law" of believing needed quite a few loopholes for when it apparently did not work.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Having your needs and wants parallel is perhaps the stupidest of all twi doctrines...it made no sense and still makes no sense...it is unbiblical and totally made up...
I sometimes think that Wierwille taught this just to see how stupid and gullible his students were.
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waysider
I know you WANT an answer to this, but I'n not going to give it to you unless you can show me you NEED it.
Oh, sorry. That's the "willingness and ability" thing.
I get mixed up sometimes.
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socks
Roy, in PFAL the Need/Want/Parallel portion was 'parallel with the Word'. Parallel being what seems like an odd word, but actually may be a good one to describe what he was teaching there.
PFAL was teaching that what you need or what you want, or both - those things have to be "parallel" with the Word, or in agreement, harmony, with what the bible teaches. It was contradictory but exactly in the way you're describing.
The impression he gave in PFAL was that need/wants had to be parallel or in harmony with each other. In fact, that is what it sounds like he's teaching part of the time and what many if not most came away with.
PFAL didn't attempt to define what a need or want was, rather that the person defines that. You might need a car, and want a Lexus. So you pray, believe, etc. etc. as taught in PFAL and apply those "5 Keys" to receiving and what you "get" by way of answered prayer is what you "get". His point was illustrated more or less by the stor-ee of the lady and drapes. She needed drapes. She wanted red ones. VPW didn't give a hang about them being red but lo 'n' behold, drapes get hung and they're red. So if that's a need and want situation it illustrated the individual's part in determining the results with their "believing".
Similar to examining any action taken by a person we could ask if there weren't other alternatives and there might be lots of them.
In 1974 while I was at the Way Nash, this question was asked, what exactly did the Need/Want portion mean? And VPW stated to the 4th Corps at that meeting - "parallel with the Word". Part of the confusion we discussed was that in PFAL he moves his hands around, and while he's moving them "over" something as he speaks, it sounds like he actually means something else by what he says. He said to him it had always been obvious.
PFAL was never changed to clarify this, was never changed to clarify anything, so it remained as it was. Emphasis on "was", as PFAL is pretty old in the can at this point.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Mr. Hammeroni, GrouchoMarxJr, waysider, and socks
God loves us all my dear friend
yes Mr. Hammeroni I seen things like that "It was often used to justify failure, failure to get "results". It left the fundamental claim that one could believe for practically anything untouched, without blame, and put fault on the one who was praying for next month's rent" happen in the Way alot
yes GrouchoMarxJr I some times think that too "I sometimes think that Wierwille taught this just to see how stupid and gullible his students were. " but I still seem to try to make my needs and wants Parallel and see a need for it
yes waysider I do not really want a answer but to check what I am seeing with what others see "I get mixed up sometimes" so do I
yes socks I recall the story of the red drapes and still think on it today PFAL had a lot of things in it that I needed but there were things in it I may of not needed too but I do not try to judge PFAL but I love to rethink what I was taught against what or how I see things today
yes socks it was the right word for what VPW taught but was his teaching right or could it been made better
is needs and wants being parallel just a begining that we can moved past when we live love to the point others people needs and wants come first
I do not have all the answers so I just share what I see and I see needs and wants being parallel does not all ways matter but I see the at the same time it helps to have them parallel
but who am I
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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socks
Actually I would say, yes, Roy. For a Christian who wants to follow Christ and the New Testament teaching, there is going to be a desire to harmonize life with what Christ taught and did and what the bible teaches.
I didnt do a good job above, what I'm trying to write is - if you're relating your first post to what PFAL taught, PFAL didn't teach what you seem to be saying it did. PFAL taught of needs and want - parallel with the Word, not parallel with each other. But that was about as clear as mud, the way he ran through it. Still the point was made. It also didn't try to analyze a person's need and want and define or direct it in that segment. That's the example of the red drapes. Regardless of how trite it was, (and I would say it was pretty shallow) the gal GOT her red drapes =
The "greed" was the negative comparison - "Good supplies your need, not your greed".
The idea of trying to direct our hearts' values by the Word - so they're in agreement with how God instructs to live could be said to make our lives "parallel" with the Word. It's definitely not a concept limited to PFAL.
So that "key" as taught in an of itself isn't wrong IMO, although PFAL's teaching was confusing and vague.
The idea of having some order to how we approach knowing and obeying God isn't wrong either, IMO. The way PFAL lists and insists that if you follow them step by step you'll "receive" what you believe for from God is what's incorrect, IMO and the believiing/law part isn't the biggest problem.
My thought process on this goes - if you can't spefiically define what a person's need is, or if what they're praying for is "really' available, there's no way to guarantee a formula will work.
Example - "prosperity" gets taught as a promose of God. How do we define prosperity? A person being provided for by God.
So there's nothing to do there but faithfully pray to God throughout our lives to provide for us.
All of the stuff about getting clear and concerned and that is just practical stuff and works for anyone - any dummy will do that or fail all their life except when stuff just drops in their laps, in which case most Christians praise the Lo'd, it must be from God, pass the hat.
But if each person has to determine in their own hearts what they need and want - and I believe they do - no one else can guarantee it regardless of what "keys' they apply.
Hope this is clearer, and it helps the discussion as it progresses. I gotta get parallel myself now...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
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year2027
God first
Beloved socks
God loves you my dear friend
I love that I am going to cut and pasted it on my computer so I can spend some time thinking about it
yes I have a "desire to harmonize life with what Christ taught "
I like this "parallel with the Word, not parallel with each other." and think on this
as I see there is more than one way to be parallel
parallel with spirit fuiths
parallel with spirit needs
parallel with spirit wants
parallel with spirit with fleshly fuiths
parallel with works
maybe the list goes on
yes "Good supplies your need, not your greed". or Godly love
yes "So that "key" as taught in an of itself isn't wrong IMO, although PFAL's teaching was confusing and vague"
but we can write a better understanding within our hearts as we are trying to do here
yes " there's no way to guarantee a formula will work" your right on
I love this statement it must be one of the all time best truth I read or at least it seems that way right now "All of the stuff about getting clear and concerned and that is just practical stuff and works for anyone - any dummy will do that or fail all their life except when stuff just drops in their laps, in which case most Christians praise the Lo'd, it must be from God, pass the hat. "
I believe it will help others as it helps me "Hope this is clearer, and it helps the discussion as it progresses" thanks a lot my friend it has help me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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shiftthis
well groucho i'm a stupid and gullible moronic fool for even thinking that i could pray to GOD for a new 2006 ford f350 diesel dually crew cab long bed pickup truck and actually believe GOD would supply it cause i dont have the money for it and i have never believed in bummin money and that goes back to the 1980's before twi started sayin git outa debt!!but guess what ! i did just that and someone bought me the above truck brand new from the ford dealer,he paid cash!!! i needed a truck (need) and i wanted (want)the type of truck mentioned above. i didnt need dually rear wheels, no one rides in the back seat but i prayed and i got it. i have gotten lots of other stuff over the years by praying to GOD having my want and need parellel! do i need an f650 ? no! could i recieve an f650 from GOD? probably not. i would have to have a commercial drivers license to legally drive it ,expensive commercial insurance,dot registration,it would be a real pain and beyond my need. could i just go out and buy it myself? shure you can do what you want.lets say i have a cessena 172 4 seat airplane and i pray for a bae146 airplane, in my case i would not recieve it from god it is beyond my need , but i could go buy it myself and than wonder what the hell did i just do!!! its very simple and i just explained it . there is no parellel intersecting lines, do you need a house? if you only NEED 4 bedrooms than thats what you pray for, and not 5 or more,it is very simple. as far as dual rear wheels go it mkes the truck extreamly stable in the rear,6 wheels breaking instead of 4,and is the safest way to pull a trailer due to stability.if you think wierwille wanted to see how stupid we are why the hell did he USE up his life doin it? he should've ben out on the harley.by the way ! when i decide i am ready for another motorcycle i am going to pray for another 1984-1986 kawasaki gps550!!! i had one a long time ago, and have ben checking the internet and other places and they are still around (what is available) and a few have ben for sale. you either take the word of GOD you know and go with it or you be a deadbeat and put it and others down.twi had some mean horrible leaders,but we ran them all off and what we got now are loving ,caring,how can i help you leaders that are looking to bless and not hurt. no one who tries to hurt will be tolerated.a lot has changed in the past 7 years.i am not in a leadership role nor do i coordinate a twig,i'm just a lowly,lowly disciple,you could even call me a peon!! but instead of critizing people for being wrong i reconized error when i saw it ,got the correct doctrine and kept building my relationship with GOD . men will let you down!! vp was a man,he made mistakes,i make mistakes,all men make mistakes, he who never makes mistakes should sit where Jesus Christ sits.yes i went back to twi in 2001 after lcm (who had a lot of us kicked out) was sent packin!! this is not my grandfathers ministry!! this is an awsome ministry and we will never allow the devilish kind of leadership creep into this ministry again. it takes the household to keep a watchful eye to keep the crap out.remember regardless of who you fellowship with ,it is up to you weather or not to put up with crap,i hope this helped you,GOD bless you
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year2027
God first
Beloved shiftthis
God loves you my dear friend
God bless you too
I hope GrouchoMarxJr gets back with you soon
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Steveo
When I pray, I always have my TOES and my KNEES parallel
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year2027
God first
Beloved Steveo
God loves you my dear friend
I like that "When I pray, I always have my TOES and my KNEES parallel "
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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