I didn't have to put up with that sh(t! I was already out nine years by the time that happened. I heard that from a woman that came to my house to bring some baby gifts - she and her husband had just left TWI.
I never would have put up with that load of .......merde.
Now just think about this HCW - I was a MOM and an artist - how could I ever hope to be a "Godly woman" in their eyes????
Hey dooj... Yo Momma!
Holy poop on a pogo stick! You all had it bad. I feel I have absolutely no room to bitch anymore...
W2s... paystubs... french tips...
All we got into was worrying about which cleaning product was the most godly... And not leaking oil on the LC's driveway. It all pales in comparison.
Amen JJ.
We did things like cut classes @ Emporia while we in residence, we'd sneak off campus & bring McDonalds back and eat it in garden level of Wierwille, trading a french fry to hungry people in exchange for somebody taking your midnite bless patrol shift. Dooj! Remember how we'd laugh at John Lynn when he yelled at us in residence??
We'd NEVER have put up w/crap like that - - "give me your w2 forms..." You can K.I.S.S. my (where the sun don't shine)! THAT's why they got rid of us. Jeez! LCM knew when he put out that crazy mandate for us Corps grads to pledge our allegiance to him that we'd leave the ministry rather than bow to him.
Its not like we were stronger people or anything; its, IMO that we knew people like LCM when he was still "Craig." Its hard to see him as the MOG when you "knew him when."
I think , to some extent, this controlling and micro-managing is a big part of why it can be so hard for some to "Just get over it and move on".
It may also explain why some who remained at their local twigs and branches will insist they never saw any of these things. That's only logical. Much of this treatment was dealt out only in the so-called training programs.
I mean, you can get past the doctrinal stuff like speaking in tongues or the trinity because those are things that lend themselves to discussion.
This history of being controlled and micro-managed, however, is something that triggers an automatic response before you even know what hit you.
The workplace can be one situation where you react almost instinctively to "control" and "directives" that mimic those experienced in TWI.
It can make you overly submissive or overly defensive to similar treatment.
It can spill into family life, also. That's why it's important to try to be cognizant of things that "push your button" and learn to deal with them logically.
Hey you kids....DON'T PUT YOUR LIPS ON THAT THANG!
I remember you and G*arland H*rris in Kenyon Hall - going on and on like two Preachers at a revival meeting.... - While we were waiting for "His Holiness JAL" to come and tell us how to cross the stage for graduation - or something like that....
Yeah - I got that letter, threw it away and said, "Well I'm not Corps anymore." Then I went out and totally exceeded my two drink limit in celebration!!!!
I think I can add to what WordWolf has said as far as what happened after LCM was expelled...
From this point, things on the surface appeared to become more laid back, less controlling, and more "loving" a lot of us at that point held on to the hope that things would be changing for the better. But in the long run, all of this was just done as damage control to keep as many people in as possible - and it was only on the surface.
Soon, everything as far as the teachings that were allowed became parroting of vp's teachings. Anything taught by lcm was treated as if it never existed. And no one ever really addressed what had happened during the lawsuit. STS became the most boring events I have ever attended... and it was obvious that everything was being read. There was to be no spontanaity involved, and everything had to be checked by the BOD. I know of one STS where the audience in the auditorium heard one thing, but it was considered to be "too negative" because it was teaching about the adversary - and it was not on the approved script - so part of the tape was edited out.
Teachings in fellowships had to be on the "weekly theme" or from a Way Mag - so much for self governing.
It started to seem like leadership was the most effected by the new form of micromanagement - so many forms and checking and rechecking with their leadership... One BC I know had to check with the LC before he could have fellowship in another town adjoining the city where it was normally held.
From what I understand, the micromanagement of the Staff and WC still continued, although it seemed like it was getting better for the average Joe-blow in fellowship... that is if the average guy wanted to teach from the Way Mag, because (at least in the fellowship I attended) only the FC was alllowed to teach on the weekly theme.
Titles are still a huge deal in twi - so huge, in fact, you can be doing all the same jobs as WC, or a FC, but you are not allowed to be called a "coordinator" unless you meet many requirements - mostly that you are out of debt... but there are a few more. Instead, they call you a "contact."
I'm sure Bolshevik can probably add more to this than I can...
it's ludicrous and ridiculous to see where things went eventually.
After reading your very powerful post and then reading the "rest of the story" from JJ, this quote expresses exactly how I feel. What the Fxxk happened? It is fruitless for me to even try to ferret out what happened to the ministry that I once loved so much. It saddens me beyond belief to realize just how far from God it was allowed and at times forced to stray. It sickens me when I think of all the wonderful, beautiful men and women that were hurt first by VP then by LCM and then by the ministry that claimed to be both Godly and of God. The incredibly incorrect teaching and instruction that so many people received is mind numbing. The fact that this Godly ministry had the audacity to treat God's children in such a deplorible manner and tell them that what and how they were doing it was Godly...it just makes me nauseous. In one way it makes me long intently for the Judgement Day and I am fairly certain that that is not a proper "renewed mind" Godly thought. But a stray thought here and there wont kill me.
Ahhh there in lies the rub...I have to ever wonder if it ever WAS Godly......maybe it was just a very clever counterfit that decieved an awfull lot of good people :(
Eyesopen -- Do you remember why you loved it so much?
Absolutely Larry, I loved that I had finally been taught that God did not in fact live in an edifice made by man. That I could actually talk to Him because I was His daughter and that He would not only listen but would also answer me. I loved that I was no longer restricted in my relationship with God. Despite all of TWI's many restrictions and laws they did teach me that a personal relationship with God is just that "personal" and no one no matter how much they belittled you, berrated you, condemned you or otherwise were a pain in your lilly white a@@ they could not effect or alter your personal walk unless you let them. It was in many ways a liberating experience, at least in that department.
I was of course willingly constrained in other areas, but that was mostly because I thought that I could help others to achieve the freedom that I had through the teachings of this ministry. So yes I did love the ministry in many ways and I truly don't think there is anything wrong with the way that I once felt. Nor would it be wrong today had the ministry not gotten or been so wacked in so many ways. The atrocities that were committed in the name of the God that I love so deeply, as I said, sickens me. But the fact that it was the people and yes some of the teachings of TWI that allowed me to develope that relationship with God is not in anyway belittled by the horrors that were committed.
There are several other things that I loved about the ministry. I loved it when I found out that it was possible to actually study the Bible and not get struck by lightning if I did. I loved that I could be a part of a family of other people that loved God as much as I. I loved that worshipping God was actually fun and not a mundane or constraining thing. I loved the early years "get togethers" like ROA and Limb meetings where everyone came to have fun and bless (yes I said "bless") each other. I loved that I learned how to pray without being selfish. I loved that I learned how to love others outside of my immediate family without asking for anything in return. I love that I can still do that today and not have to even think about it. I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.
Sure there are a lot of things that I really dislike about my time in TWI. For instance it seriously pains me everyday that I by my complicity allowed others to be harmed by members of TWI. It makes me nauseuos to think that wonderful women of God that had beautiful gentle hearts were raped by the man that I thought I was learning God's word from. It grieves me to the core of my everlasting soul to think that I may have been in a position at any given time to help even one of them and I probably would not have notice or didn't notice.
Do not think or entertain for one second the thought that I in any way intend or desire to belittle the pain, anguish and overall mistreatment of even one of my beloved brothers or sisters at the hands of anyone associated with TWI. If there were any way that I could remove it all from every single one of them and take it upon myself, I would without a moments hesitation. But I cannot, so instead I offer to anyone my help, such as it is.
In contrast, I also do not belittle the good that I was able to gleen from my experience. For with what I learned perhaps I can in some way help someone who was not so lucky.
Well, be that as it may, I would wonder why God wasn't speaking to you prior to getting in telling you:
"STAY OUT! STAY OUT!"
Actually God was saying exactly that.
I was just too determined to make my relationship with Big Steve work to listen. I was still in my "doormat" stage, still holding on the the belief system that said it was the woman's job to make "her man" happy, still believing that when things went wrong it was somehow my fault and therefore my responsibility to fix. The roots of this belief system were grounded in a childhood with a paranoid schizophrenic mother. I was ideal prey for any pathological sociopath and had managed to hook up with a king of this form of predator.
This lack of rational thought process on my part, this lack of willingness to come out of my self created box that I called life, caused not only me but more importantly my children years of life altering pain.
It has taken years of self intropspection and therapy to shed these toxic beliefs, and even today I can find myself slipping back into some of the old thought patterns unless I am vigilant.
The fact that most of the leadership from VPW on down were sociopathic, some to a greater degree than others, meant that people like my husband, Rich Urquhart, G and C K---, S and P A---------, to name but a few in AK had a safe haven to practice their behaviors. Instead of protecting and nourishing those of us who were being abused, the abusers were exalted and sustained.
Were the "victims" part of the problem? Of course we were. Any adult of average or better mental capacity is ultimately responsible for the choices they make in this life. However, just because this is true, this truth in no way relieves TWI etal of the fact that their arrogance and willingness to turn a blind eye to sociopathic behavior at the highest levels of the organization compounded and exacerbated the problem.
Ahhh there in lies the rub...I have to ever wonder if it ever WAS Godly......maybe it was just a very clever counterfit that decieved an awfull lot of good people :(
More times than I want to count I have asked myself this question. I know that there were those in the ministry that were Godly people. But was the ministry itself based upon God or Godly principals? I think VP answered that question himself, when he taught that a building built upon the sand would not stand but a building built upon the Rock that is Jesus Christ would stand forever. TWI is in its death throws hence it was built on sand...
Yeppers! God got me out more times than I care to think about in the beginning. Once I "obeyed" the "man of gawd" in our area and gave up my nice little apartment to move in with "a believer", it was all over - they had my life lock, stock and barrel. Then I got married and it was really over - I became a brain-dead TWIt.
Oh how I wish I hadn't caved in and subdued that "rebellious" streak of mine when they started quoting 1 Samuel at me. :(
That's one I didn't hear said. Usually the line was something about the devil trying to talk you out of it.
LNM
I have posted the specifics regarding that incident but I don't recall where and when. I think it might be on *my story*.
It's what( in retrospect) has convinced me that revelation is VERY real and not just some little "whisper in the ear, did I really hear that?" kind of deal.
I don't think the subject of debuhl spurts had even been introduced to me yet at that time.
I had only been speaking in tongues for a day or two and had not had the class yet.
It was the first time I did a "lift list".
I know now that I should have followed my own thoughts on the matter but hind sight is always 20/20.
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doojable
I didn't have to put up with that sh(t! I was already out nine years by the time that happened. I heard that from a woman that came to my house to bring some baby gifts - she and her husband had just left TWI.
I never would have put up with that load of .......merde.
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HCW
Amen JJ.
We did things like cut classes @ Emporia while we in residence, we'd sneak off campus & bring McDonalds back and eat it in garden level of Wierwille, trading a french fry to hungry people in exchange for somebody taking your midnite bless patrol shift. Dooj! Remember how we'd laugh at John Lynn when he yelled at us in residence??
We'd NEVER have put up w/crap like that - - "give me your w2 forms..." You can K.I.S.S. my (where the sun don't shine)! THAT's why they got rid of us. Jeez! LCM knew when he put out that crazy mandate for us Corps grads to pledge our allegiance to him that we'd leave the ministry rather than bow to him.
Its not like we were stronger people or anything; its, IMO that we knew people like LCM when he was still "Craig." Its hard to see him as the MOG when you "knew him when."
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waysider
I think , to some extent, this controlling and micro-managing is a big part of why it can be so hard for some to "Just get over it and move on".
It may also explain why some who remained at their local twigs and branches will insist they never saw any of these things. That's only logical. Much of this treatment was dealt out only in the so-called training programs.
I mean, you can get past the doctrinal stuff like speaking in tongues or the trinity because those are things that lend themselves to discussion.
This history of being controlled and micro-managed, however, is something that triggers an automatic response before you even know what hit you.
The workplace can be one situation where you react almost instinctively to "control" and "directives" that mimic those experienced in TWI.
It can make you overly submissive or overly defensive to similar treatment.
It can spill into family life, also. That's why it's important to try to be cognizant of things that "push your button" and learn to deal with them logically.
That's my opinion, anyway.
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doojable
Hey HCW - YO Momma!!!
Hey you kids....DON'T PUT YOUR LIPS ON THAT THANG!
I remember you and G*arland H*rris in Kenyon Hall - going on and on like two Preachers at a revival meeting.... - While we were waiting for "His Holiness JAL" to come and tell us how to cross the stage for graduation - or something like that....
Yeah - I got that letter, threw it away and said, "Well I'm not Corps anymore." Then I went out and totally exceeded my two drink limit in celebration!!!!
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WordWolf
Unless I missed something recent,
cg has his own little corporation (probably non-profit)
and sells his classes in exchange for a tithe from the locals
or an annual license to run his classes.
Depending on who you ask, that's either a good or a bad thing in and of itself.
Some posters here could tell you more, since they seem to be in some local
group under him.
=========
To those of us who left twi in the 70s and 80s,
it's ludicrous and ridiculous to see where things went eventually.
Here's how I see the progression.
vpw trained lcm, and put him in charge of the corps training.
Then he put him in charge of the whole shebang.
lcm thus started close to the top and stayed there, and had vpw's example of special treatment
to fall back on, rather than a conventional education like seminary or grad school.
lcm thus relied on his experience observing vpw, or running the corps, and
extrapolated from there on how to run the entire organization.
vpw kicked out an entire corps class twice, and once allowed them to return,
provided they signed an oath of allegiance.
So, when lcm wanted to tighten his grip, he demanded an oath of allegiance from the
staff and the corps. Those that didn't agree, he kicked out, and he didn't have to deal
with them anymore. Incidentally, this resulted in about 80% of twi's members leaving
WITH the local staff.
Those who remained (about 20%) were loyal enough to stick around despite the issues that
many or most of those who left considered sufficient grounds for leaving.
(I found the entire demanding of an oath sufficient grounds for leaving, myself,
and added direct observation to that of lcm and company to clinch my suspicions.)
Over the next few years, there was some reshuffling of assets, and some adjusting of
expectations.
According to eyewitnesses, about 1994, that all changed.
Now, everybody began getting "orders", and they had to do whatever lcm said-which meant they
had to do what the Limb leader said, which meant they had to do what the Branch leader
said, which meant they had to do what the Twig leader said.
We missed things like being expected (required de facto if not de jure) to provide free
babysitting services for local leaders, free housecleaning services for local leaders,
and all kinds of things where the response from you or I would vary between
sarcastic laughter, a rude hand-gesture, just walking out, or the rough edge of your
tongue. But, see, all the people who would object were gone, and these changes came
so, so, slowly.....
============
"When the Nazis came for the communists,
I remained silent;
I was not a communist.
When they locked up the social democrats,
I remained silent;
I was not a social democrat.
When they came for the trade unionists,
I did not speak out;
I was not a trade unionist.
When they came for me,
there was no one left to speak out." - Hans Neimoller (translated.)
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ChasUFarley
I have some really good friends who follow CG and have been since the 80's...
They have NEVER seen him - even when he lived in the same state....
I've never said anything to them about it - I respect them and love them, but that's just WEIRD.
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JavaJane
I think I can add to what WordWolf has said as far as what happened after LCM was expelled...
From this point, things on the surface appeared to become more laid back, less controlling, and more "loving" a lot of us at that point held on to the hope that things would be changing for the better. But in the long run, all of this was just done as damage control to keep as many people in as possible - and it was only on the surface.
Soon, everything as far as the teachings that were allowed became parroting of vp's teachings. Anything taught by lcm was treated as if it never existed. And no one ever really addressed what had happened during the lawsuit. STS became the most boring events I have ever attended... and it was obvious that everything was being read. There was to be no spontanaity involved, and everything had to be checked by the BOD. I know of one STS where the audience in the auditorium heard one thing, but it was considered to be "too negative" because it was teaching about the adversary - and it was not on the approved script - so part of the tape was edited out.
Teachings in fellowships had to be on the "weekly theme" or from a Way Mag - so much for self governing.
It started to seem like leadership was the most effected by the new form of micromanagement - so many forms and checking and rechecking with their leadership... One BC I know had to check with the LC before he could have fellowship in another town adjoining the city where it was normally held.
From what I understand, the micromanagement of the Staff and WC still continued, although it seemed like it was getting better for the average Joe-blow in fellowship... that is if the average guy wanted to teach from the Way Mag, because (at least in the fellowship I attended) only the FC was alllowed to teach on the weekly theme.
Titles are still a huge deal in twi - so huge, in fact, you can be doing all the same jobs as WC, or a FC, but you are not allowed to be called a "coordinator" unless you meet many requirements - mostly that you are out of debt... but there are a few more. Instead, they call you a "contact."
I'm sure Bolshevik can probably add more to this than I can...
I just got sick of being treated like an infant.
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Ham
Me too.. especially when I was forty stinking years old.. you'd think they thought I wasn't potty trained.
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waysider
Remember the teaching VPW did about a preacher who worked on his sermon all week and kept the notes in his desk drawer?
According to VP, the debuhl peeked at the notes at night and then turned the people's hearts against the Sunday sermon.
( I think this was in PFAL.)
VP went on to say that's why he liked to "wing it" as he listened for God to tell him what to teach as he was teaching it.
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Eyesopen
After reading your very powerful post and then reading the "rest of the story" from JJ, this quote expresses exactly how I feel. What the Fxxk happened? It is fruitless for me to even try to ferret out what happened to the ministry that I once loved so much. It saddens me beyond belief to realize just how far from God it was allowed and at times forced to stray. It sickens me when I think of all the wonderful, beautiful men and women that were hurt first by VP then by LCM and then by the ministry that claimed to be both Godly and of God. The incredibly incorrect teaching and instruction that so many people received is mind numbing. The fact that this Godly ministry had the audacity to treat God's children in such a deplorible manner and tell them that what and how they were doing it was Godly...it just makes me nauseous. In one way it makes me long intently for the Judgement Day and I am fairly certain that that is not a proper "renewed mind" Godly thought. But a stray thought here and there wont kill me.
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rascal
Ahhh there in lies the rub...I have to ever wonder if it ever WAS Godly......maybe it was just a very clever counterfit that decieved an awfull lot of good people :(
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Larry N Moore
Eyesopen -- Do you remember why you loved it so much?
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Eyesopen
Absolutely Larry, I loved that I had finally been taught that God did not in fact live in an edifice made by man. That I could actually talk to Him because I was His daughter and that He would not only listen but would also answer me. I loved that I was no longer restricted in my relationship with God. Despite all of TWI's many restrictions and laws they did teach me that a personal relationship with God is just that "personal" and no one no matter how much they belittled you, berrated you, condemned you or otherwise were a pain in your lilly white a@@ they could not effect or alter your personal walk unless you let them. It was in many ways a liberating experience, at least in that department.
I was of course willingly constrained in other areas, but that was mostly because I thought that I could help others to achieve the freedom that I had through the teachings of this ministry. So yes I did love the ministry in many ways and I truly don't think there is anything wrong with the way that I once felt. Nor would it be wrong today had the ministry not gotten or been so wacked in so many ways. The atrocities that were committed in the name of the God that I love so deeply, as I said, sickens me. But the fact that it was the people and yes some of the teachings of TWI that allowed me to develope that relationship with God is not in anyway belittled by the horrors that were committed.
There are several other things that I loved about the ministry. I loved it when I found out that it was possible to actually study the Bible and not get struck by lightning if I did. I loved that I could be a part of a family of other people that loved God as much as I. I loved that worshipping God was actually fun and not a mundane or constraining thing. I loved the early years "get togethers" like ROA and Limb meetings where everyone came to have fun and bless (yes I said "bless") each other. I loved that I learned how to pray without being selfish. I loved that I learned how to love others outside of my immediate family without asking for anything in return. I love that I can still do that today and not have to even think about it. I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.
Sure there are a lot of things that I really dislike about my time in TWI. For instance it seriously pains me everyday that I by my complicity allowed others to be harmed by members of TWI. It makes me nauseuos to think that wonderful women of God that had beautiful gentle hearts were raped by the man that I thought I was learning God's word from. It grieves me to the core of my everlasting soul to think that I may have been in a position at any given time to help even one of them and I probably would not have notice or didn't notice.
Do not think or entertain for one second the thought that I in any way intend or desire to belittle the pain, anguish and overall mistreatment of even one of my beloved brothers or sisters at the hands of anyone associated with TWI. If there were any way that I could remove it all from every single one of them and take it upon myself, I would without a moments hesitation. But I cannot, so instead I offer to anyone my help, such as it is.
In contrast, I also do not belittle the good that I was able to gleen from my experience. For with what I learned perhaps I can in some way help someone who was not so lucky.
Any questions?
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Larry N Moore
P.S. But if I do think of something else, I'll be sure to get back with ya.
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templelady
Actually God was saying exactly that.
I was just too determined to make my relationship with Big Steve work to listen. I was still in my "doormat" stage, still holding on the the belief system that said it was the woman's job to make "her man" happy, still believing that when things went wrong it was somehow my fault and therefore my responsibility to fix. The roots of this belief system were grounded in a childhood with a paranoid schizophrenic mother. I was ideal prey for any pathological sociopath and had managed to hook up with a king of this form of predator.
This lack of rational thought process on my part, this lack of willingness to come out of my self created box that I called life, caused not only me but more importantly my children years of life altering pain.
It has taken years of self intropspection and therapy to shed these toxic beliefs, and even today I can find myself slipping back into some of the old thought patterns unless I am vigilant.
The fact that most of the leadership from VPW on down were sociopathic, some to a greater degree than others, meant that people like my husband, Rich Urquhart, G and C K---, S and P A---------, to name but a few in AK had a safe haven to practice their behaviors. Instead of protecting and nourishing those of us who were being abused, the abusers were exalted and sustained.
Were the "victims" part of the problem? Of course we were. Any adult of average or better mental capacity is ultimately responsible for the choices they make in this life. However, just because this is true, this truth in no way relieves TWI etal of the fact that their arrogance and willingness to turn a blind eye to sociopathic behavior at the highest levels of the organization compounded and exacerbated the problem.
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Eyesopen
More times than I want to count I have asked myself this question. I know that there were those in the ministry that were Godly people. But was the ministry itself based upon God or Godly principals? I think VP answered that question himself, when he taught that a building built upon the sand would not stand but a building built upon the Rock that is Jesus Christ would stand forever. TWI is in its death throws hence it was built on sand...
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Bramble
Wow--I never thought about the tree leaf imagery--leaves are disposable before. But it's true, leaves could drop all over and not hurt the Way Tree.
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waysider
Actually, I believe God WAS telling me, "Stay out, stay out!"
It happened within the first week or so after I was witnessed to.
I didn't know what to make of it so I asked my twig leader who then assured me it was nothing more than unrenewed mind.
It was, by far, the most VIVID case of "unrenewed mind" I ever experienced.
My mistake was in listening to the twig leader instead of heeding the warning that was given to me.
What did I know? I hadn't even taken the class at that point in time.
I never even understood what had happened until I got to GSC and started to put the pieces of the puzzle together.
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Belle
Yeppers! God got me out more times than I care to think about in the beginning. Once I "obeyed" the "man of gawd" in our area and gave up my nice little apartment to move in with "a believer", it was all over - they had my life lock, stock and barrel. Then I got married and it was really over - I became a brain-dead TWIt.
Oh how I wish I hadn't caved in and subdued that "rebellious" streak of mine when they started quoting 1 Samuel at me.
:(
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Larry N Moore
That's one I didn't hear said. Usually the line was something about the devil trying to talk you out of it.
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waysider
LNM
I have posted the specifics regarding that incident but I don't recall where and when. I think it might be on *my story*.
It's what( in retrospect) has convinced me that revelation is VERY real and not just some little "whisper in the ear, did I really hear that?" kind of deal.
I don't think the subject of debuhl spurts had even been introduced to me yet at that time.
I had only been speaking in tongues for a day or two and had not had the class yet.
It was the first time I did a "lift list".
I know now that I should have followed my own thoughts on the matter but hind sight is always 20/20.
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Ham
I dunno.. I think hindsight kinda looks forward..
Some people think it prejudices a person.. I prefer to think it offers wisdom.
I can smell these scams a mile away.. probably the same for a lot of people here.
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frank123lol
Thatwas our other fellow member when he walked in front of "leadership" to go to the bathroom.
I say pee on them!
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Ham
I see our friend every once in a while.. seems happy, doing well.
Yeah.. unbelievable. You know, those sycophants had "the world" in their hands..
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