Tasso - to appoint; determine, or ordain... "to determine to submit"
[literally] -- loving obedience by proper arrangement and deliberate decision
There are 40 occurences in the New Testament of this word
I'll take their word for it -- I'm too lazy to dig out my Strong's right now.
This is the number for probation/trial period (40 days and nights, 40 years of wandering...)
Bullinger taught this one -- surprised it isn't an *old wine-skin* by now with twi
A believer must prove that they can walk in submission in ALL categories of life
before they can be called spiritually mature. (to grow up in Christ is to "mature").
SAYS WHO?? Certainly not Jesus. He called all to have *faith like children*.
Paul's admonition to *eat meat* rather than *drink milk*
certainly must've had this *directive* within it's concepts.
There are no shortcuts. It takes first-hand experience to know the benefits,
attacks, growth, and necessity of submission.
If you don't understand these things, you cannot lead people.
Since the premise immediately above this one has major flaws --
how can one take THIS one seriously???
Who submits? According to the Bible:
believers submit to God and His Word
Yup.
believers submit to leadership
Yup
believers submit to other believers
Yup
youngsters submit to elders
Yup
children submit to parents
Yup
wives submit to husbands
Yup
devil spirits submit to believers
Yup
We all submit to someone or something CONSTANTLY. (to bosses, to our physical bodies,
to the laws of the land, etc.) Think of the chaos that would ensue if we didn't willingly submit.
Submission is in the mind. It requires controlling your thinking to the end that it becomes
your heart's desire to submit LOVINGLY (by proper arrangement).
Acts 2:42 --> 1)Actions 2)Respect 3)Results!
Hang on just a second here --- An important step was missed.
Passed over, ignored, sneered at, forgotten about -------
(either deliberately or not -- and given that -- probably deliberately),
and that is the instances, (which are in the above mentioned in WHO SUBMITS) ---
dealt with a legitimate ministry, with LEGITIMATE leadership.
Leadership that was looking to something other than lining their own pockets..
By teaching the above, from the *pulpit* in N.K. Ohio --
they equated their (twi) *authority* to that of biblical proportions.
Pawned it off on unsuspecting *believers* (I was one at one time),
And forgot to mention all the things that they could *spiritually handle*,
while acting like prophets, apostles, and teachers of old,
of whom there is NO RECORD of (cough!! cough!! wheeze!! gasp!!),
*Being mature enough to spiritually handle* anything!
Was there drambuie and motor coaches back then?? If so -- I never saw the verses.
The Key to Submitting:
When you are given a directive, IMMEDIATELY drive your mind to think of how it CAN be done, and not to why it cannot be done, or why it should not be done. That is negative. Ask yourself, "How can I accomplish the thing that is set before me?"
When told to jump, not only don't ask how high?,
Also refrain from asking Why?, or What's the reason?.
Ask yourself instead -- How can I do as I'm told, and NOT look stupid in the process??.
WHAT IT IS NOT...
Submission is not a list of "thou shalts" dictated from one person to another.
B as in B, and S as in S
It is the result of people working together to reach an agreement on the Word (being like-minded).
It's a result of a power play --- plain and simple
Where is the believing if you are not like-minded? Not working on a common goal?
there-is-NO-FRIGGIN-LAW-OF-BELIEVING (as described by twi),
unless you are caught up in the new age mind control crowd ------
(which btw -- isn't so *new age* after all).
That lie has been around for centuries.
What gets in the way of LOVING submission?
FEAR! "What if the person I am submitting to is wrong?"
Given the leadership we were handed -- THAT was a valid assumption
1) Fear is ALWAYS wrong, so you are already doing the wrong thing by going down this path.
Again --- B as in B, and S as in S.
If you have a gun put to your head (either metaphorically or in reality),
fear is the most natural thing in the world to feel.
2) See the Christ in people: expect them to get it right (pray for them daily: for your leadership, for the ministry)
Good point. Valid even. It's a shame that what was said --
taken at *face value*, wasn't what was meant.
3) Overseers, it is your job to believe in the Christ-in-you to get it right... you are submitting to God's Word.
DO AS WE SAY THE FIRST TIME -- OR YOU WILL BE M & A'D!! No time for F***-Up$ here.
FEAR! "Submission is confining, binding, stifling..."
Given the twi description of submission -- no truer words have been spoken.
1) Growth is limited without a proper framework providing direction and support
Define framework, as well as direction, and support.
2) Put your heart and soul into obeying and you will see the results
From whom?? You, yourselves, twi --- or God???
If there IS a mistake, God will cover it... it is NOT your business; NOT your responsibility.
Until we decide you need a face melting, for not getting it right the FIRST time.
Agreed, George! I didn't mean it figuratively, either. I literally started feeling queasy after typing up such garbage and realizing I had once done my darndest to comply with those standards. UUUGH.
I remember once at the ROA we were ridding on one of those shuttles. My younger brother had a disagreement with my dad. Seemed like damn near every adult jumped on my brother, "OBEY your parents!!!!!"
Who can argue with Ephesians 6:1? If your parents tell you serve the ministry, Ephesians 6:1.
My son is over a year old now.
My wife and I don't think we'll show him Ephesians 6:1. We'd like it if he actually responded out of love and not dumb obedience.
I also remember at the ROA seeing a twelvish year old girl smacking a sixish year old girl. "OBEY" smack, "OBEY" smack, "OBEY".
Submission is in the mind. It requires controlling your thinking to the end that it becomes your heart's desire to submit LOVINGLY (by proper arrangement).
THANK YOU for adding "by proper arrangement"
i had forgotten that ! ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hahaha
i had forgotten that ! ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hahaha
Yeah... I was typing that up thinking, "... what that really means is, Controlling your thinking so you don't kill your spouse and your leadership for being jerks and ordering you around with no thought to your time, heart, life, longsuits, or desires by THEIR decisions... wasn't nothing PROPERLY ARRANGED about it!!!"
Tasso - to appoint; determine, or ordain... "to determine to submit"
[literally] -- loving obedience by proper arrangement and deliberate decision
There are 40 occurances in the New Testament of this word
This is the number for probation/trial period (40 days and nights, 40 years of wandering...)
As was pointed out by a previous poster I'll go with the number forty as the number of times isn't as relevant, IMO, as what we learn form the various verses.
A believer must prove that they can walk in submission in ALL categories of life before they can be called spiritually mature. (to grow up in Christ is to "mature").
Christ was the only person that was able to submit in all categories of life. To look at it another way, a perfect life is the result of ALWAYS submitting to God's definition of what is right. None of the rest of us, as far as I am aware, have ever accomplished this. Striving for perfection is not the same as having attained perfection.
There are no shortcuts. It takes first-hand experience to know the benefits, attacks, growth, and necessity of submission. If you don't understand these things, you cannot lead people.
All it takes to "lead" is to have followers.
I remember when my boss called me in the office to have a discussion about some of my behavior which he felt was exhibiting a bad example for our residents to follow.
Boss: "whether you like it or not, many people here regard you as a leader of sorts."
Me: " just because they are following me doesn't make me a leader- it just means they have poor judgement in selecting who they will follow."
I was wrong of course, if someone is following your words or actions you are a leader, like it or not. Submission or not. In TWI it appeared to me that the leaders, for the most part, were the very people who failed to submit to to ethics and moral values shown in the Bible
Who submits? According to the Bible:
believers submit to God and His Word
Yup God's Word, not leadership's interpretation of same
believers submit to leadership
Believers are to submit to leadership that is of God. The Bible is replete with directives on how to know the good shepards from the wolves. Leaders who do not themselves adhere to the Word of GOd are not to be followed in the religious arena.
believers submit to other believers
Depends on the situation, and if what you are being asked to submit to is what God wants for your life. This last is important, even good actions are not good if they are contrary to what the Lord has revealed to you concerning what He wants you to do.
youngsters submit to elders
True unless abuse is involved and then youngsters have a right to turn to other adults for aid. They also have the right to disregard elders who are asking them to do things which would result in disobiedience of the child's parents. They are to be respectful in refusing, polite, and non confrontational, but have the right to say "my parents do not allow that."
children submit to parents
See first part of last response
wives submit to husbands
Yes, the husband is head of the house--the exceptions would be in case of abuse of herself or her children, or criminal activity.
devil spirits submit to believers
Yes
We all submit to someone or something CONSTANTLY. (to bosses, to our physical bodies, to the laws of the land, etc.)
Think of the chaos that would ensue if we didn't willingly submit.
Submitting to the direction of one's boss is not the same as having to submit to a leader who is not related by blood, part of your employment, or a member of law enforcement, especially if that leader is demanding you work for them for free, give them money you can't afford to give, or submit to abusive and potentially illegal activities.
Submission is in the mind. It requires controlling your thinking to the end that it becomes your heart's desire to submit LOVINGLY (by proper arrangement). Acts 2:42 --> 1)Actions 2)Respect 3)Results!
True, as stated
The Key to Submitting:
When you are given a directive, IMMEDIATELY drive your mind to think of how it CAN be done, and not to why it cannot be done, or why it should not be done. That is negative. Ask yourself, "How can I accomplish the thing that is set before me?"
"I was only following orders" . Only a very foolish person does not stop to consider the propriety of a directive, no matter who is issuing it. God expects us to use the minds He gave us to make decisions about good and evil and then follow only the good.
WHAT IT IS NOT...
Submission is not a list of "thou shalts" dictated from one person to another.
It is the result of people working together to reach an agreement on the Word (being like-minded).
Where is the believing if you are not like-minded? Not working on a common goal?
This is double speak at its finest. What besides a list of "thou shalts" were 98% of the directives handed down by leadership? Again we are faced with reaching an agreement on "the Word", with what the Word says being defined by leadership, so as to support their position.
What gets in the way of LOVING submission?
FEAR! "What if the person I am submitting to is wrong?"
No, a common sense question that God expects me to ask and find the answer to before I proceed
1) Fear is ALWAYS wrong, so you are already doing the wrong thing by going down this path.
Fear is an emotion given us by GOd as an early warning system of things that are wrong and/or dangerous
2) See the Christ in people: expect them to get it right (pray for them daily: for your leadership, for the ministry)
Agreed. Whether leadership themselves succeeded in this arena is a discussion for another day.
3) Overseers, it is your job to believe in the Christ-in-you to get it right... you are submitting to God's Word.
Agreed. with the caveats mentioned before concerning the interpretation of God's Word.
FEAR! "Submission is confining, binding, stifling..."
Sometimes it is--another part of that early warning system mentioned before
1) Growth is limited without a proper framework providing direction and support
Agreed
2) Put your heart and soul into obeying and you will see the results
Agreed. But never lose sight of the fact that bad ideas make bad results
If there IS a mistake, God will cover it... it is NOT your business; NOT your responsibility.
Funny, my Scriptures tell me that my actions are my business and my responsibility. If I choose to put my brain in park and willy-nilly follow every directive that comes down the pike, without ever stopping to think about whether saids directies are good or bad and the ramifications of doing them, I cannot expect my Heavenly Father to be permenently on call to clean up my mess. Heavenly Father frequently spares us from the consequences of our mistakes, that is called grace. Grace does not however mean we can continue to go blindly through life. As Paul put it "should we sin more so that grace may abound?"
1st Occurance of Hupotasso: Luke 2:51 (context starts in verse 42) --> Subject to them
The results are seen in v52 --> you can see how obedience brought blessings and avoided hurts.
This kind of obedience starts in the physical realm when we are children. The actions are obvious. The results are obvious.
It grows as we grow in Christ into the spiritual world, which is very subtle.
Look where God lists disobedience to parents: Romans 1:28-32
Look at the "company" this sin keeps... the worst!!
Obedience is VERY important to God.
God expects obedience, not excuses.
Sometimes our disobedience is due to immaturity. We mess up, but we will do better next time.
Sometimes our disobedience is due to a cluttered mind. We "heard" but didn't fully listen, remember, and obey.
The solution is to be quiet, to watch, to learn, and to obey next time.
By always putting the Word first in our thoughts, by submitting one to another in loving obedience by proper arrangement and deliberate decision, we will experience the benefits and see growth in our lives.
It sounds so good, so spiritually "right on". And it is on the surface. It isn't the idea of submission, or the scriptures that support the ideas that are wrong. It is the interpretation of submission by TWI which was used to make the believers do things which if they had reflected on first they would have known were not of God. And the saddest part of all was that TWI used intimidaton to promte the Fear they were deriding to get the rebellious to submit.
I get sick everytime I realize that my own lack of using the brains the good Lord gave me have caused so much pain to so many people. TWI was at fault for their twisting of scripture, I was at fault for taking the easy way and submitting when I should have rebeled
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waysider
HaHaHa!
Kinda reminds me of that Dylan song,"You Gotta Serve Somebody".
Not sure of the exact title.
Sounds like a good excuse to visit youtube, though.
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dmiller
Did someone one say YOU TUBE?? ;)
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dmiller
I'm skipping the last of this here. Thanks The HighWay --- but I feel sick too. :(
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George Aar
I know it's said all the time as a figure of speech, but I found I actually started feeling physically ill just reading your notes.
Gawd, WayDogma is so repellant. It's just disgusting. Vile, disgusting, sickening, icky...
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TheHighWay
Agreed, George! I didn't mean it figuratively, either. I literally started feeling queasy after typing up such garbage and realizing I had once done my darndest to comply with those standards. UUUGH.
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likeaneagle
Okay, I came back to see if I could read this whole topic..and I cant..
But, what I have logicaly concluded is that' TWI had a mapped sensory response system of error' in place..
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Ham
Hmm. I wonder what happened there..
Right.. just sell me another bridge..
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Bolshevik
Ephesians 6:1
I remember once at the ROA we were ridding on one of those shuttles. My younger brother had a disagreement with my dad. Seemed like damn near every adult jumped on my brother, "OBEY your parents!!!!!"
Who can argue with Ephesians 6:1? If your parents tell you serve the ministry, Ephesians 6:1.
My son is over a year old now.
My wife and I don't think we'll show him Ephesians 6:1. We'd like it if he actually responded out of love and not dumb obedience.
I also remember at the ROA seeing a twelvish year old girl smacking a sixish year old girl. "OBEY" smack, "OBEY" smack, "OBEY".
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ChasUFarley
After what I went thru about this with my first husband, I get queazy just seeing the word 'hupotasso' in the title of the thread...
Ewwwwwwwwwww!
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Twinky
I seem to have missed something here.
Isn't the greatest leader the greatest servant?
Shouldn't therefore the leadership be "hupotasso-ing" the rest of us? (tongue in cheek)
(Shove over, THW and dmiller, I need to lie down too...)
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GrouchoMarxJr
Submission?...whip me, beat me, make me write bad checks...
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Shifra
Here in Montana, "Hupotasso" is a rope trick performed by cowboys at the rodeo each summer.
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another spot
Now that's funny, Shifra!
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doojable
OK, say the word "Obey" about 20 times in a row:
"Obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey, obey obey,..."
It loses all meaning and becomes a caucauphony of sound, doesn't it?
Imagine how it sounds to a child that has heard it from the time he or she has been born...
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excathedra
THANK YOU for adding "by proper arrangement"
i had forgotten that ! ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha hahaha
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TheHighWay
Yeah... I was typing that up thinking, "... what that really means is, Controlling your thinking so you don't kill your spouse and your leadership for being jerks and ordering you around with no thought to your time, heart, life, longsuits, or desires by THEIR decisions... wasn't nothing PROPERLY ARRANGED about it!!!"
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GarthP2000
Reading those notes, I kept thinking of Nurse Ratched in One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest.
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templelady
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