It was not right of me to say I was "ashamed of you"...
I love you all as I love myself...
It is just as inappropriate in light of the spirit for me to be ashamed of you as for you to judge others in light of the God's grace.
For God has given you the same spirit as me.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Comment: It is probably some of the same people reading this post that witnessed to me and brought me into God's holy of holies.
So this is where the law of liberty warring in my members taught me that to be ashamed of you was going against God's law of liberty.
It doesn't help that you have not rightly divided the word of God after all of these years but by the same token I still have no right to judge you spiritually either.
I am not looking for praise other than from God.
Psalms 119:162
I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.
Colossians 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
2Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation [law of liberty].
2Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Psalms 133:1
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Comment: Is any of this making sense?
I love you all and I am proud of God's family of the holy spirit. For we all learned to speak by the spirit together in unity of mind.
1Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Comment: Did God remove the candlestick from the place of "The Way" because we did not repent by way of the spirit but we kept dredging up sin by way of the law till,
"No one wanted to go to our church?"
Did we wrongly divide the church because we wrongly divided the law of liberty from the law of sin and death?
There was a time when liberty ruled our ministry but it was snuffed out like a candle... And all that was left was legal minded bullies who ruled with tyranny instead of charity.
Again I am sorry for speaking rash and I love you all because of the liberty with which we have been called....
Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh [law], but by love serve one another.
Comment: We are not supposed to use liberty to impose law but we use the spirit to guide us and teach us to walk in love.
Ephesians 4:15
But speaking the truth [law of liberty] in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Comment: When did love bashing become law bashing?
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Comment: Do people here value the truth as one who has found great "spoil"?
Or does ego and pride rule the day?
Now I am honest enough to admit my mistakes... how about any of you?
The spirit was lost by the ruling kingdoms of the world but God revealed his way of faith to those who believed.
This is why we have the faith of Jesus Christ.
Without this faith there can be no liberty.
Christ is "The Way" (to God) because he walked in liberty.
The "way of holiness" is the law of liberty and faith...
By faith Abraham... Faith is the red thread of Christ.
I'm sorry, but these statements don't make sense to me, biblically or theologically. I'm particularly distressed with your statement about Christ. Christ is the way to God because of who he is, first and foremost, and because of what He did for us...which is first and foremost His suffering and sacrifice.
...Now I am honest enough to admit my mistakes... how about any of you?
I’ve already confessed to a BIG mistake I made – and I’m not falling for that BS ever again:
I'm not surprised you have many students on the Internet. There's a sucker born every minute. Heck, I used to believe VPW was the man of God for the universe a long time ago – that image is forever soiled of course by seeing what he was really like when I was in the Corps.There's a vast difference between his Christian façade that was paraded around for the public and his actual character that schemed and connived to feed his sexual perversions. But alas, I speak a foreign language to someone poisoned by pride and arrogance.
...By the way, I read that book by Allan Bloom YEARS ago...tremendous work!
MarkO, that is one of the books I read in the first year of leaving TWI – that quote just hit me light a thunderbolt!...My wife also read it – uhm…since we’re into true confessions now – I’ve gotta tell yah about a picture I took. I came into the living room and noticed Tonto [pregnant at the time] sleeping on the couch with the book The Closing of the American Mind covering her face like a sleep mask. It took every ounce of discipline to not giggle as I snapped a picture of my beloved sleeping bookworm…In reality I’m usually the one who falls asleep reading – that’s my inside joke if you ever look at My Gallery – Tonto took one of me – I entitled it Sleeping or Reading.
[The above incident has been approved for release by Tonto and is suitable for all ages.]
Ok all. This has probably been asked before, but I figure most of us are constantly re-thinking some of our beliefs. I know Romans says the things that were written aforetime were for our learning. I have some questions about that.
If we go chronologically and not by the cannon/order of our current Bibles, it changes everything. It doesn't actually say in the verse or context what the time period "aforetime" is--we were taught it was before Pentecost. Where did that come from for real? Do you now consider the Gospels pertinent and applicable to you? Most of the Gospels and epistles were all written around the same time, often by some of the same men.
Do you still emphasize mostly the Epistles in your life or do you now refer more often to Jesus Christ's ministry and teachings? If we are supposed to follow Jesus Christ and if we are to make him our Lord, then shouldn't we know what He taught and did? I know I pretty much ignored a lot of the Gospels in twi-we were always teaching about epistles-except when it was December or near Resurrection Sunday
Good questions, Penguin. I think the way I organize stuff in my head - I focus on particular topics rather than particular books of the Bible. I can relate to ignoring the gospels while in TWI – I probably overcompensated by reading them like crazy after leaving. Some folks on this thread talked about the extreme dispensationalist viewpoint of VPW. That may be one way of seeing how God works in the Bible – I tend to shy away from any rigid format that could superimpose a foreign interpretation onto Scripture.
I try to have a unified approach to understanding the Bible – the information I seek may be scattered all over the place. I also believe what God thinks is important for us to know – He makes very plain and simple. Like the man who asked Jesus which is the great commandment in the law [Matthew 22:35-40]. Jesus' answer, very simply was there's two: Love God and neighbor as you love yourself. I sometimes imagine He said the next part as if He was revealing a big secret "matter of fact, everything written in the law and the prophets depends on these two commandments." "Law" has been mentioned a lot on this thread. Some folks get all up in arms over "not being under the law."
Our words need a little more specificity on this topic. Because of our Lord's work, we are under a new covenant – and are no longer bound to the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament. But the moral law as concisely expressed in the Ten Commandments and supremely summed up in Jesus' words to love God and neighbor have never been removed! As you will find them referred to even in the epistles [Romans 13:9,10; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8].
I was reading The Believer's Bible Commentary by William MacDonald on the Romans 15 passage – I thought Word Wolf's post # 30 handled it quite well – and think you may find this commentary helpful too:
"15.1 The first thirteen verses of chapter 15 continue the subject of the previous chapter, dealing with matters of moral indifference. Tensions had arisen from Judaism and those from paganism, so Paul here pleads for harmonious relations between these Jewish and Gentile Christians.
Those who are strong [that is, with full liberty regarding things that are morally indifferent] are not to please themselves by selfishly asserting their rights. Rather, they should treat their weak brothers with kindness and consideration, making full allowance for their excessive scruples.
15.2 Here the principle is this: don't live to please self! Live to please your neighbor, to do him good, to build him up. This is the Christian approach.
15.3 Christ has given us the example. He lived to please His Father, not Himself. He said, "The reproaches of those who reproached You fell on me" [Ps. 69:9]. This means that He was so completely taken up with God's honor that when men insulted God He took it as a personal insult to Himself.
15.4 This quotation from the Psalms reminds us that the OT Scriptures were written for our learning. While they were not written directly to us, they contain invaluable lessons for us. As we encounter problems, conflicts, tribulations, and troubles, the Scriptures teach us to be steadfast, and they impart comfort. Thus, instead of sinking under the waves, we are sustained by the hope that the Lord will see us through."
I don't see anywhere in the above that has (the law of Moses) written in it. So why do you insert it? Shoot, the context of the verse is not even talking about the Mosaic law, it's talking about circumcision...in light of Abraham, Isaac, and Ishmael (who all pre-dated Moses by a year or two).
Frankly, as to the subject of the "law of liberty," the phrase is used exactly twice in the Bible. James 1:25 and 2:12. If you check the context of those two verses out, it doesn't say what (as I recall) we were taught in TWI. It talks about the importance of the corporal works of mercy (see Jas 2:2 - 2:6, 2:16, etc.), and, in essence, the need to obey all of the decalogue (see Jas 2:10). Galatians talks in large part about the same points...the importance of interior conversion, as opposed to mere exterior compliance (spirit vs. mere flesh). But neither give authority to Christians to go and do whatever they want. Nowhere are we relieved of requirement to act in accord with the decalogue. In fact, we have to live toward our neighbors with a higher standard.
In this regard, I love James 2:13 For judgment is without mercy to one who has shown no mercy; yet mercy triumphs over judgment. When I read this, I remember all those times that we were told not to feed the poor, but just give them the Word. I thank God for His mercy toward me, for all those times when I was in TWI and I could have helped somebody...
Sorry if I sound harsh, but it's just something that irks me when I see it happen. The venom is aimed at the general habit...not at you as a person. So please don't take it like I'm yelling at you. I'm not. I'm yelling at the habit (which all of us have been guilty of).
The immediate context is about circumcision, but the remote context mentions the law, which I still assume from usage to be the law of Moses, not the law of sin and death. There are numerous references to the law of Moses throughout the book of Galatians. I had prepared a lengthy post citing them, but I am experiencing technical difficulties.
Does anyone out there know what to do if you receive a page saying 'Forbidden: you are not authorised to use this server, etc'. Pawtucket says it is not because of any greasespot activity on my account but I am computer illiterate, and don't know how to fix it.
Jesus taught us that to selectively apply the "law" was hypocrisy.
We either walk by the spirit and yolk ourselves to the spirit or we yolk ourselves to the law.
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Comment: You can't be saved from the law and still be held captive by it...
We are yoked to the masters [Christ Jesus'] walk of liberty not yoked to Paul's walk. Although we are imitators of Paul because he imitated the walk of Christ's love, in this same regard we imitate each other because of the liberty we walk with in Christ..
For even Paul had Christ in him.
So this law is dead as the flesh is dead and the spirit is all that concerns us. In the recognition of this spirit is the perfection of it and this is how the law of liberty can grow and flourish in the mind.
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh [Law], hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Comment: When men/woman are spirituality circumcised some people stay with the person and some become the flesh part that is cut off...
We either remain with the spirit or we remain with the flesh.
Darned if I can remember the name of that piece of flesh that is cut off..
The Bible speaks of a part of the body becoming the whole person.
I can't remember where that is either.
Oh yea, now I remember, a schmuck!
This is the part of the flesh that is cut off...
You are all schmucks!
"Iniquity was found in thee..."
Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity [law] was found in thee.
Malachi 2:6
The law of truth [liberty] was in his [Christ Jesus'] mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity [equality], and did turn many away from iniquity [law].
2:9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
Comment: You cannot have iniquity without law...
Sin was found in them... (Adam and Eve)
You cannot have sin without law.
For this law was found in them instead of the spirit.
Were the law became the yolk that became the whole person.
Students, pay attention now – this will be on the test. Your teacher is showing a key strategy to use whenever you find yourself in a jam – resort to name-calling.
So this law is dead as the flesh is dead and the spirit is all that concerns us. In the recognition of this spirit is the perfection of it and this is how the law of liberty can grow and flourish in the mind.
T-Bone: I'm not surprised you have many students on the Internet. There's a sucker born every minute.
DrWearWord: And there is a saint born every minute...
T-Bone: Heck, I used to believe VPW was the man of God for the universe a long time ago – that image is forever soiled of course by seeing what he was really like when I was in the Corps. There's a vast difference between his Christian façade that was paraded around for the public and his actual character that schemed and connived to feed his sexual perversions. But alas, I speak a foreign language to someone poisoned by pride and arrogance.
DrWearWord: You apparently are judging him by his external fruit oblivious to the judgment that you have brought upon yourself.
I am not here to defend Dr Wierwille but I am here to defend the spirit of God in our brothers and sisters. If you are here to condemn the flesh then it is the holy spiritual realm that you are oblivious to.
So this law is dead as the flesh is dead and the spirit is all that concerns us. In the recognition of this spirit is the perfection of it and this is how the law of liberty can grow and flourish in the mind.
Comment:
The law is dead.
THE LAW IS DEAD...
For it has been replaced with a greater law...
The law of the spirit.
The law of liberty.
Living love in the walk of God's liberty.
In the walk of our brother Christ.
In his capacity to love.
In his capacity to look beyond the flesh and see the true heart of people within.
That all desire to look upon the law of liberty but they are led and entangled again within the law and the yoke of it's bondage.
That they needed to be emancipated from the sins of their father to walk in true liberty of the spirit.
The law of liberty; this is the will, this is the word, this is the way, and this is the truth of God.
This liberty must become the consciousness of the believer's mind before it can become the consciousness of the world.
Law must exist within the mind in order for transgression of law to exist in the consciousness.
"Sin" is ONLY perceived as a transgression of a law.
For where there is no law there is also no sin consciousness.
There's always been a law of some kind – written on the hearts of mankind by our Creator.
Romans 2: 12-16 NIV
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law,15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
DrWearWord: You apparently are judging him by his external fruit oblivious to the judgment that you have brought upon yourself.
I am not here to defend Dr Wierwille but I am here to defend the spirit of God in our brothers and sisters. If you are here to condemn the flesh then it is the holy spiritual realm that you are oblivious to.
"You threw the baby out with the bath water..."
I'm just going by a directive of my Lord Jesus.
Matthew 7:15-20 NIV
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
It appears you have a problem with communication. Indicated by your frequent use of VPW's phrases. No offense, but it comes off as if there's a chimp [or TWI chump] randomly punching buttons on a VPW Quotation Machine - most of the time they don't make sense within the context of the discussion. It's difficult to take YOUseriously because your posts have an artificial quality about them – like they're not really YOU.
Law must exist within the mind in order for transgression of law to exist in the consciousness.
"Sin" is ONLY perceived as a transgression of a law.
For where there is no law there is also no sin consciousness.
So, would you say that where there is no law, there is no sin? Or to paraphrase you in another way, where there is no sinconsciousness there is no sin?
We have not sinned without law or under the law...
Maybe you should learn your prepositions?
We have lived under the "law" of liberty. And we are judged under the law of liberty.
Now what "law" are you judging people under?
God is the judge of men's secrets through the law of liberty in Christ not us...
False prophets doctrines always lead back to the LAW and enslavement of the flesh.
So it confines the free walk of the spirit.
To reason I will just have enough law so I walk moderately, so I meet the law to a reasonable standard is still using the law to guide your spirit.
It is the spirit that guides the soul and it does not always follow the law it follows it's own course.
This course is the law of liberty. It does not fall and worship at every holy day it doesn't pray an not once wink an eye and fall asleep during a prayer.
It walks in grace and forgiveness not law and damnation.
This thread has beome much more complicated than I was hoping for! I was attempting to find a simple answer. My one question is to Mr Wearword is how can Christ have walked the law of liberty when he was the one who had to fufill ALL of the OT law? (Including being the Passover Lamb.)
This thread has beome much more complicated than I was hoping for! I was attempting to find a simple answer. My one question is to Mr Wearword is how can Christ have walked the law of liberty when he was the one who had to fufill ALL of the OT law? (Including being the Passover Lamb.)
Thanks to others for helpful comments.
The question is irrelevant. Jesus Christ made it possible to have the law of liberty by fulfilling the law of Moses and still being willing to die. BTW there was plenty of liberty in the Mosaic law. The Mosaic law was concerned with telling people in great detail how to worship God and how to treat your neighbor; hence it could be consolidated into two great commandments:
1). Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength
The question is irrelevant. Jesus Christ made it possible to have the law of liberty by fulfilling the law of Moses and still being willing to die. BTW there was plenty of liberty in the Mosaic law. The Mosaic law was concerned with telling people in great detail how to worship God and how to treat your neighbor; hence it could be consolidated into two great commandments:
1). Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength
2). Love your neighbor as yourself
I don't believe it being lawful to kill a slave with no punishment is actually walking by the law of liberty...
This is where someone is not a citizen because of their bloodline rather than their spiritual deposit. If they were a citizen then it was an eye for an eye... But if they were a slave they had no rights at all. Is this walking by the flesh or the spirit?
This is only one of many instances where the law was "weak"...
Jesus Christ fulfilled the law by walking in the law of liberty.
Ok all. This has probably been asked before, but I figure most of us are constantly re-thinking some of our beliefs. I know Romans says the things that were written aforetime were for our learning. I have some questions about that.
If we go chronologically and not by the cannon/order of our current Bibles, it changes everything. It doesn't actually say in the verse or context what the time period "aforetime" is--we were taught it was before Pentecost. Where did that come from for real? Do you now consider the Gospels pertinent and applicable to you? Most of the Gospels and epistles were all written around the same time, often by some of the same men.
Do you still emphasize mostly the Epistles in your life or do you now refer more often to Jesus Christ's ministry and teachings? If we are supposed to follow Jesus Christ and if we are to make him our Lord, then shouldn't we know what He taught and did? I know I pretty much ignored a lot of the Gospels in twi-we were always teaching about epistles-except when it was December or near Resurrection Sunday
Penguin -- Yes -- this has *drifted too far from the shore*, of the original topic.
Dr. wear (in his zeal to promote the *law of liberty*, has hijacked this thing completely,
while contradicting himself all the while. :)
I answered superfluously earlier, but let me make it more concrete -- with your post #1 in mind.
Because of twi, yes -- I have a high regard for the epistles.
Yes -- I ignored the Gospels for many years -- writing them off as *irrelevant*.
Because of post-twi church affiliations, I've come to see the Gospels as important.
While I realize that I am *seated in the Heavenlies* with Christ (stated in the Epistles) ---
I have come to realize that the path that leads me to that point is --
(among other things), the Gospels and the teachings of Christ.
Like I said earlier -- It's all one book.
Cutting out one part of the book and regarding it as irrelevant,
would be the same as cutting off an arm from the body,
and saying "I don't need you".
In the case of disregarding the gospels, and considering them *for our learning only*,
one might as well cut off the Head of the body, and say -- "You're not needed."
There. Did I make it plain enough?? (that's just my imo) :)
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DrWearWord
Actually I must back peddle a bit...
It was not right of me to say I was "ashamed of you"...
I love you all as I love myself...
It is just as inappropriate in light of the spirit for me to be ashamed of you as for you to judge others in light of the God's grace.
For God has given you the same spirit as me.
Romans 12:3
For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith.
Comment: It is probably some of the same people reading this post that witnessed to me and brought me into God's holy of holies.
So this is where the law of liberty warring in my members taught me that to be ashamed of you was going against God's law of liberty.
It doesn't help that you have not rightly divided the word of God after all of these years but by the same token I still have no right to judge you spiritually either.
I am not looking for praise other than from God.
Psalms 119:162
I rejoice at thy word, as one that findeth great spoil.
Colossians 2:15
And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
2Corinthians 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation [law of liberty].
2Timothy 2:15
Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
Psalms 133:1
Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity!
Ephesians 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
Philippians 4:7
And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus.
Romans 5:1
Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Comment: Is any of this making sense?
I love you all and I am proud of God's family of the holy spirit. For we all learned to speak by the spirit together in unity of mind.
1Corinthians 13:10
But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
Galatians 5:1
Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.
Revelation 2:5
Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
Comment: Did God remove the candlestick from the place of "The Way" because we did not repent by way of the spirit but we kept dredging up sin by way of the law till,
"No one wanted to go to our church?"
Did we wrongly divide the church because we wrongly divided the law of liberty from the law of sin and death?
There was a time when liberty ruled our ministry but it was snuffed out like a candle... And all that was left was legal minded bullies who ruled with tyranny instead of charity.
Again I am sorry for speaking rash and I love you all because of the liberty with which we have been called....
Galatians 5:13
For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh [law], but by love serve one another.
Comment: We are not supposed to use liberty to impose law but we use the spirit to guide us and teach us to walk in love.
Ephesians 4:15
But speaking the truth [law of liberty] in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:
Comment: When did love bashing become law bashing?
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markomalley
You have a point.
By the way, I read that book by Allan Bloom YEARS ago...tremendous work!
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DrWearWord
Romans 3:22
Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:
Galatians 2:16
Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Galatians 3:22
But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
Comment: Do people here value the truth as one who has found great "spoil"?
Or does ego and pride rule the day?
Now I am honest enough to admit my mistakes... how about any of you?
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TheEvan
I'm sorry, but these statements don't make sense to me, biblically or theologically. I'm particularly distressed with your statement about Christ. Christ is the way to God because of who he is, first and foremost, and because of what He did for us...which is first and foremost His suffering and sacrifice.
WORD WOLF...WONDERFUL POST!!
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markomalley
Absolutely. Here's a prime example of a life-altering mistake: I was involved with TWI for a few years.
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T-Bone
I’ve already confessed to a BIG mistake I made – and I’m not falling for that BS ever again:
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T-Bone
MarkO, that is one of the books I read in the first year of leaving TWI – that quote just hit me light a thunderbolt!...My wife also read it – uhm…since we’re into true confessions now – I’ve gotta tell yah about a picture I took. I came into the living room and noticed Tonto [pregnant at the time] sleeping on the couch with the book The Closing of the American Mind covering her face like a sleep mask. It took every ounce of discipline to not giggle as I snapped a picture of my beloved sleeping bookworm…In reality I’m usually the one who falls asleep reading – that’s my inside joke if you ever look at My Gallery – Tonto took one of me – I entitled it Sleeping or Reading.
[The above incident has been approved for release by Tonto and is suitable for all ages.]
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T-Bone
Good questions, Penguin. I think the way I organize stuff in my head - I focus on particular topics rather than particular books of the Bible. I can relate to ignoring the gospels while in TWI – I probably overcompensated by reading them like crazy after leaving. Some folks on this thread talked about the extreme dispensationalist viewpoint of VPW. That may be one way of seeing how God works in the Bible – I tend to shy away from any rigid format that could superimpose a foreign interpretation onto Scripture.
I try to have a unified approach to understanding the Bible – the information I seek may be scattered all over the place. I also believe what God thinks is important for us to know – He makes very plain and simple. Like the man who asked Jesus which is the great commandment in the law [Matthew 22:35-40]. Jesus' answer, very simply was there's two: Love God and neighbor as you love yourself. I sometimes imagine He said the next part as if He was revealing a big secret "matter of fact, everything written in the law and the prophets depends on these two commandments." "Law" has been mentioned a lot on this thread. Some folks get all up in arms over "not being under the law."
Our words need a little more specificity on this topic. Because of our Lord's work, we are under a new covenant – and are no longer bound to the ceremonial laws of the Old Testament. But the moral law as concisely expressed in the Ten Commandments and supremely summed up in Jesus' words to love God and neighbor have never been removed! As you will find them referred to even in the epistles [Romans 13:9,10; Galatians 5:14; James 2:8].
I was reading The Believer's Bible Commentary by William MacDonald on the Romans 15 passage – I thought Word Wolf's post # 30 handled it quite well – and think you may find this commentary helpful too:
"15.1 The first thirteen verses of chapter 15 continue the subject of the previous chapter, dealing with matters of moral indifference. Tensions had arisen from Judaism and those from paganism, so Paul here pleads for harmonious relations between these Jewish and Gentile Christians.
Those who are strong [that is, with full liberty regarding things that are morally indifferent] are not to please themselves by selfishly asserting their rights. Rather, they should treat their weak brothers with kindness and consideration, making full allowance for their excessive scruples.
15.2 Here the principle is this: don't live to please self! Live to please your neighbor, to do him good, to build him up. This is the Christian approach.
15.3 Christ has given us the example. He lived to please His Father, not Himself. He said, "The reproaches of those who reproached You fell on me" [Ps. 69:9]. This means that He was so completely taken up with God's honor that when men insulted God He took it as a personal insult to Himself.
15.4 This quotation from the Psalms reminds us that the OT Scriptures were written for our learning. While they were not written directly to us, they contain invaluable lessons for us. As we encounter problems, conflicts, tribulations, and troubles, the Scriptures teach us to be steadfast, and they impart comfort. Thus, instead of sinking under the waves, we are sustained by the hope that the Lord will see us through."
End of excerpts
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Jeaniam
The immediate context is about circumcision, but the remote context mentions the law, which I still assume from usage to be the law of Moses, not the law of sin and death. There are numerous references to the law of Moses throughout the book of Galatians. I had prepared a lengthy post citing them, but I am experiencing technical difficulties.
Thank you, jeaniam
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cman
Jeaniam, if you are using winXP-
start-control panel-internet options-security tab
set all tabs to default and try again
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DrWearWord
You can't have your cake and eat it too...
Jesus taught us that to selectively apply the "law" was hypocrisy.
We either walk by the spirit and yolk ourselves to the spirit or we yolk ourselves to the law.
Matthew 6:24
No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.
Comment: You can't be saved from the law and still be held captive by it...
We are yoked to the masters [Christ Jesus'] walk of liberty not yoked to Paul's walk. Although we are imitators of Paul because he imitated the walk of Christ's love, in this same regard we imitate each other because of the liberty we walk with in Christ..
For even Paul had Christ in him.
So this law is dead as the flesh is dead and the spirit is all that concerns us. In the recognition of this spirit is the perfection of it and this is how the law of liberty can grow and flourish in the mind.
Colossians 2:13
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh [Law], hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
Comment: When men/woman are spirituality circumcised some people stay with the person and some become the flesh part that is cut off...
We either remain with the spirit or we remain with the flesh.
Darned if I can remember the name of that piece of flesh that is cut off..
The Bible speaks of a part of the body becoming the whole person.
I can't remember where that is either.
Oh yea, now I remember, a schmuck!
This is the part of the flesh that is cut off...
You are all schmucks!
"Iniquity was found in thee..."
Ezekiel 28:15
Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity [law] was found in thee.
Malachi 2:6
The law of truth [liberty] was in his [Christ Jesus'] mouth, and iniquity was not found in his lips: he walked with me in peace and equity [equality], and did turn many away from iniquity [law].
2:9 Therefore have I also made you contemptible and base before all the people, according as ye have not kept my ways, but have been partial in the law.
Comment: You cannot have iniquity without law...
Sin was found in them... (Adam and Eve)
You cannot have sin without law.
For this law was found in them instead of the spirit.
Were the law became the yolk that became the whole person.
A little leavening [law] infects the whole mind.
Galatians 5:9
A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.
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T-Bone
Students, pay attention now – this will be on the test. Your teacher is showing a key strategy to use whenever you find yourself in a jam – resort to name-calling.
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TheEvan
True
Untrue
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DrWearWord
The Evan
Law must exist within the mind in order for transgression of law to exist in the consciousness.
"Sin" is ONLY perceived as a transgression of a law.
For where there is no law there is also no sin consciousness.
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DrWearWord
T-Bone: I'm not surprised you have many students on the Internet. There's a sucker born every minute.
DrWearWord: And there is a saint born every minute...
T-Bone: Heck, I used to believe VPW was the man of God for the universe a long time ago – that image is forever soiled of course by seeing what he was really like when I was in the Corps. There's a vast difference between his Christian façade that was paraded around for the public and his actual character that schemed and connived to feed his sexual perversions. But alas, I speak a foreign language to someone poisoned by pride and arrogance.
DrWearWord: You apparently are judging him by his external fruit oblivious to the judgment that you have brought upon yourself.
I am not here to defend Dr Wierwille but I am here to defend the spirit of God in our brothers and sisters. If you are here to condemn the flesh then it is the holy spiritual realm that you are oblivious to.
"You threw the baby out with the bath water..."
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DrWearWord
DrWearWord Wrote:
So this law is dead as the flesh is dead and the spirit is all that concerns us. In the recognition of this spirit is the perfection of it and this is how the law of liberty can grow and flourish in the mind.
Comment:
The law is dead.
THE LAW IS DEAD...
For it has been replaced with a greater law...
The law of the spirit.
The law of liberty.
Living love in the walk of God's liberty.
In the walk of our brother Christ.
In his capacity to love.
In his capacity to look beyond the flesh and see the true heart of people within.
That all desire to look upon the law of liberty but they are led and entangled again within the law and the yoke of it's bondage.
That they needed to be emancipated from the sins of their father to walk in true liberty of the spirit.
The law of liberty; this is the will, this is the word, this is the way, and this is the truth of God.
This liberty must become the consciousness of the believer's mind before it can become the consciousness of the world.
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T-Bone
There's always been a law of some kind – written on the hearts of mankind by our Creator.
Romans 2: 12-16 NIV
12 All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13 For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16 This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.
I'm just going by a directive of my Lord Jesus.
Matthew 7:15-20 NIV
15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thorn bushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
It appears you have a problem with communication. Indicated by your frequent use of VPW's phrases. No offense, but it comes off as if there's a chimp [or TWI chump] randomly punching buttons on a VPW Quotation Machine
- most of the time they don't make sense within the context of the discussion. It's difficult to take YOU seriously because your posts have an artificial quality about them – like they're not really YOU.
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TheEvan
So, would you say that where there is no law, there is no sin? Or to paraphrase you in another way, where there is no sinconsciousness there is no sin?
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DrWearWord
We have not sinned without law or under the law...
Maybe you should learn your prepositions?
We have lived under the "law" of liberty. And we are judged under the law of liberty.
Now what "law" are you judging people under?
God is the judge of men's secrets through the law of liberty in Christ not us...
False prophets doctrines always lead back to the LAW and enslavement of the flesh.
So it confines the free walk of the spirit.
To reason I will just have enough law so I walk moderately, so I meet the law to a reasonable standard is still using the law to guide your spirit.
It is the spirit that guides the soul and it does not always follow the law it follows it's own course.
This course is the law of liberty. It does not fall and worship at every holy day it doesn't pray an not once wink an eye and fall asleep during a prayer.
It walks in grace and forgiveness not law and damnation.
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penguin
This thread has beome much more complicated than I was hoping for! I was attempting to find a simple answer. My one question is to Mr Wearword is how can Christ have walked the law of liberty when he was the one who had to fufill ALL of the OT law? (Including being the Passover Lamb.)
Thanks to others for helpful comments.
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TheEvan
Never mind.
That's a pretty strong delusion you're laboring under, WearWord. Enjoy.
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Jeaniam
The question is irrelevant. Jesus Christ made it possible to have the law of liberty by fulfilling the law of Moses and still being willing to die. BTW there was plenty of liberty in the Mosaic law. The Mosaic law was concerned with telling people in great detail how to worship God and how to treat your neighbor; hence it could be consolidated into two great commandments:
1). Love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength
2). Love your neighbor as yourself
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DrWearWord
I don't believe it being lawful to kill a slave with no punishment is actually walking by the law of liberty...
This is where someone is not a citizen because of their bloodline rather than their spiritual deposit. If they were a citizen then it was an eye for an eye... But if they were a slave they had no rights at all. Is this walking by the flesh or the spirit?
This is only one of many instances where the law was "weak"...
Jesus Christ fulfilled the law by walking in the law of liberty.
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dmiller
Penguin -- Yes -- this has *drifted too far from the shore*, of the original topic.
Dr. wear (in his zeal to promote the *law of liberty*, has hijacked this thing completely,
while contradicting himself all the while. :)
I answered superfluously earlier, but let me make it more concrete -- with your post #1 in mind.
Because of twi, yes -- I have a high regard for the epistles.
Yes -- I ignored the Gospels for many years -- writing them off as *irrelevant*.
Because of post-twi church affiliations, I've come to see the Gospels as important.
While I realize that I am *seated in the Heavenlies* with Christ (stated in the Epistles) ---
I have come to realize that the path that leads me to that point is --
(among other things), the Gospels and the teachings of Christ.
Like I said earlier -- It's all one book.
Cutting out one part of the book and regarding it as irrelevant,
would be the same as cutting off an arm from the body,
and saying "I don't need you".
In the case of disregarding the gospels, and considering them *for our learning only*,
one might as well cut off the Head of the body, and say -- "You're not needed."
There. Did I make it plain enough?? (that's just my imo) :)
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