John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Comment: Is this NEW commandment (golden rule) to love each other as we love ourselves or rather to love others as Christ loved us?
Moses' law was an eye for an eye or, love others as you love yourself.... where the new law is love others as Christ has love us.
Luke:6:35
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Colossians 3:14
And above all these things put on charity [agape], which is the bond of perfectness.
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Comment: We are in the era/age of the sabbath...
Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Deuteronomy 5:3
The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Comment: This new covenant is written in the hearts not on stone...
2 Corinthinans 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament [covenant]; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he [Jesus Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
When man and woman became capable of understanding day and night the beginning of time began.
Some would say time began the moment the earth became formless and void - when God retracted the infinite to make room for the finite. Some would say time was actually the first act of creation.
For humans could have walked with God without becoming self aware.
But would it have been a free-will choice then? How could one make a free-will choice to walk with God, to walk with a being separate from him/herself, without self awareness?
God's purpose is beyond our ability to fully grasp.
But what it means to be human is part of God's essence.
Our failures and our successes that build character, humility and patience.
Agreed.
God cuts out the male part at Christ's birth.
Then he cuts out the female part when we leave the flesh behind.
Can you explain what this means?
which God is Moses writing about? Moses seems incapable of the ability to distinguish between the only true God from the God of this world.
Most scholars would agree there is no way Moses could have written the book of Genesis. It is believed Genesis is a conglomeration (SP) of two different authors, one a male, the other a female. I have more on this somewhere in the "Harlot by the Side of the Road Thread" but I don't know what page.
The mind of God teaches the mind of the spirit that teaches our mind.
The how does one who is not "born again" learn and ever become born again? It can't simply be from reading the bible, or that would seem grossly unjust and for hubndreds of years there were people who never had access to it.
Adam and Eve were already formed and made in sin
That God knew what Adam and Eve would do, I can buy. That God formed and made them in sin - that you'd have to document.
Did God give humans differing male and female spirits? Isn't sexuality and duality a form of division that the spirit is above? So all sex will be going to hell..
There is a post on this in the Adam and Eve thread, if you are intersted.
For how can God's image be both male AND female? (“God created them in his image both male and female created them he. “)
This is why God has no image.
Why can't it be? Just because your mind can't grasp it, doesn't mean it cannot be, no? While I would agree God has no image, God does have aspects, traits, character, elsewise, how could God be love, spirit, holy, etc.
It is the male that passes on the life (or energy part) and the female that has the flesh part thus the Y chromosome would represent "life", or heaven and the flesh earth. That man borrows the flesh from the female does not negate that the female receives "life" (this illusive force of breath) from the male.
Can you document this scripturally or even scientifically?
Thanks for taking the time to respond so succinctly.
I can tell by your questions that I am not making myself clearly understood.
I will admit that I did traverse a large amount of ground but it seems that maybe thinly in some places.
Time has two beginnings for humans and the earth the first was the physical time and the second was perceptible time.
For God is timeless and has no beginning or end.
When a tree falls in the forest alone does it make a sound?
Just because time began at the creation of the heavens and the earth is it really time where there is no one within creation capable of perceiving it.
Was the devil able to perceive days and nights when there was no moon yet? Possibly not, considering Lucifer's kingdom is not infinite for even light has a finite amount of energy with which to radiate once disconnected from God's unlimited power source of zero, for zero feeds and supports an infinity of numbers both positive and negative.
We cannot reason the Bible in a void we must see creation in light of science.
Science says time began in the big bang but was there anyone able to perceive it back then?
So I reckon that time does not begin at creation but it begins when creation is capable of perceiving it is just as a tree makes no perceptible sound unless there is someone present to hear it. For God did not create the world in vain. The purpose of time was humanity and the spirit (of consciousness and fellowship with God) not the flesh and the physical world.
I will come back and address each of your thoughtful points.
I thank you Abigail for taking the time to compose your thoughts and I will do my best to try to make a sometimes seemingly confusing doctrine a bit more clear.
I beg for opposition and debate. This is why I am so wordy... It gives so much room and rope to dissect and disassemble and catch me in my unawares.
I am used to forums where I have to explain every single detail because they have never heard the rightly divided word of God. I become first a novelty and the over time a profound peculiarity.
Yet here some say that I am telling them nothing new but they deny the truth (figure that one out) That is like being aware of time but denying it's existence... Well I am aware that what I says is new, not all of it but a degree of it is out of my own reasoning and I have never been taught it other than from my own induction from the word. Parallel lines never meet.
I have over six thousand replies (over 8 years) that I have written, some very lengthy replies, in another forum on spirituality. So I am not new to this and I am ready for the ride of my life with this forum because I know that the participants in this forum ARE (spiritually) educated and will give me a run for my money (so to speak). I am ready to preach the gospel to those who are at Greaspot!
:)
You will hear some very strange things come out of me and I do care what others have to say. I don't do it for the shock value I do it because I believe in the love of God and that this love is complete and without prejudice. I prefer if you want me to read a book or link that you not just post the book but you say in your own words what it is in the book that actually contradicts in particular what i am saying. If it is the entire book that contradicts me please give me the highlights. you can totally disagree with me and I will not hate you or hold a vendetta. I want to learn...
I am not just quoting scriptures at people but I am giving my own time and energy into saying what I think about them. I expect the same strategy out of others and not just hit and run tactics.
Say in our own words why... for I have taken the time to read and formulate my own ideas and share them and I expect no less from others who choose to challenge me with empty rhetoric.
I have been challenged in the very same manner many times and be it my brother/sister in Christ Jesus or a new believer they both are substantively lacking when they do not expound their ideas in their own words.
As Dr. would say "they have not made it their own..."
So if they do not believe enough to make it their own why should I have to defend something that is suspect to begin with?
Then he cuts out the female part when we leave the flesh behind.
It is almost as if the original sin was sexuality in itself.
Gabriel (soul) and Michael (body)
And Christ is the holy spirit. Christ became the spirit when he was baptized.
This is why Christ had legions of angels on the cross.. Michael was there to fight for the lord's bones and Gabriel was there in his life force, the dove symbolized Gabriel taking the soul of Jesus and transferring it to the spirit. the baptism. Melchizidek would have been part of an angelic cult. Fire and water flesh and blood. Michael and Gabriel. Lucifer in his fallen state as the God of this world and the unholy spirit of law.
The fall of lucifer was the mutation that cause the rift between male and female.
It is like Y is an organism that came to live in the female species and it's presence rendered the female species dependent upon Y for reproduction.
Did the original mutation lead to the original sin?
Could you please explain where your thought process came from concerning this?
Well, I am hit and miss in these forums as I have time and am moved to participate. I only today got around to wading through that somewhat lengthy post of yours. :)
When a tree falls in the forest alone does it make a sound?
Well my 10 year old son would present a very strong argument that it does. He and I have had that conversation a few times and he would point out that the vibrations, which to our ears make sound, are there whether our ears are there to vibrate along with them or not. He would further point out there are always insects and animals in the forest. But I understand that is not your point. :)
We cannot reason the Bible in a void we must see creation in light of science.
I agree the two must agree and when they don't, either the scientists got it wrong or we are understanding doctrine wrong.
Science says time began in the big bang but was there anyone able to perceive it back then?
and based on my understanding of Kabbalah I would say the big bang occured when God "contracted" his infinitness to create the finite. :)
So I reckon that time does not begin at creation but it begins when creation is capable of perceiving it is just as a tree makes no perceptible sound unless there is someone present to hear it. For God did not create the world in vain. The purpose of time was humanity and the spirit (of consciousness and fellowship with God) not the flesh and the physical world.
I would disagree in a literal sense. But for practical purposes I would concede. I think time existsed in the begining, but as you say, if there is no one to reckon it does it really exist?
Yet here some say that I am telling them nothing new but they deny the truth (figure that one out) That is like being aware of time but denying it's existence... Well I am aware that what I says is new, not all of it but a degree of it is out of my own reasoning and I have never been taught it other than from my own induction from the word. Parallel lines never meet
I think you will find the vast majority of people who participate down here in the basement are seeking truth. Some have rejected portions of VPW's teachings. Some have rejected all of it and started over, and would say where the two agree the credit is not necessarily VPW's. Myself, I went back to scratch and am studying Judaism. There is a tremendous amount of information to be found there.
Ultimately, it matters not to me whether we agree or disagree. God tells us those who seek shall find. Right or wrong, I figure if we are seeking, we will ultimately find. Whatever path I am on is the path to God, even if starts from a different place than yours, even if it at times branches off in different directions than yours.
I So if they do not believe enough to make it their own why should I have to defend something that is suspect to begin with?
Defend? no. Explain, expound, be willing to give, take, discuss, etc., yes.
If that were true, nobody could get saved, for salvation begins by a revelation to the unsaved...
God placed in every persons heart the desire for eternal life... Even animals can perceive the importance of survival.
Believing only requires the instinct for survival (life) and the ability to ask God for this gift. Also, a brain size large enough to contain the idea of a creator (or sanctification by others).
Do you need to know what is in a gift before receiving it? Yes, we perceive that this gift is the source of life. We need to trust those who bear gifts. People are aware of what they are receiving before they obtain they simply do not comprehend its greatness until they have a chance to operate it once it has been received... lambano dechomai
The spirit does not give us believing it give us faith. ("before faith came...")
Could you please explain where your thought process came from concerning this?
Abigail asked the same question, I must be being really vague.
Please give it some thought though.
God cut out the male Y lineage in the Christ line and replaced it with a sinless life in the Y chromosome. God created a new Y chromosome in Mary. This Y chromosome was the SON of God. We cut out the flesh (X Chromosome) when we die and we leave our fleshly DNA in the ground. Thus X and Y are only a launching ground for the spirit which in the end has no need of with our own X or Y Chromosome because God replaces these earthly constructs of those with heavenly quantum or zero. For we become sons of God and not sons of man. An we become siblings of the generation of Christ rather than generations on our own. (this is hard even for me to explain)
This flesh part is the egg part contributed by the female of which the Y chromosome (except for the life in the Y chromosome) is a mutation of the DNA of X... So when God created a Y chromosome he still borrowed the flesh from X but he created the life in the Y mutation. This is why Jesus resembled Mary his mother also but was undoubtedly male.
This Michael who "fights for God's people" is a "physically" oriented being (wrestling with Jacob) where Gabriel who has been depicted in the clouds can easily be associated with the life force of the physical and Christ being the son of God becomes the head and ABOVE merely formed or made beings. For Christ walked in body, soul and spirit. This spirit of Christ was the throne once belonging to lucifer that was lost through lucifer's treachery. The two parts (Gabriel and Michael) and this (light) part he will take with him into the cosmos. This X chromosome of Mary, Jesus kept and though we will leave our X and Y chromosome in the dust at our grave we will be part of Christ's X chromosome that he derived from Mary. Kind of convoluted huh?
These holy angels are embodied within each "one third of the "heavens" one third being brought back into submission to God through Christ Jesus the heavenly complete future body, soul and spirit of creation which we someday will inherit in the fullness of "time".
I find that these angels are part of the "creature" (creation). This creature being separate from God in visage but ultimately in the same spirit and image with God and thus still quantum.
Sorry, W, but I still don't get it. Then again, math and science were always my weak areas in school. I do better with reading, writing, history, social studies, etc.
So, I am not arguing with what you are saying, I just don't understand what you are saying. Don't worry though, it happens to me too. I'll read something that communicates very well to me and share it with others, who end up scratching their heads and staring at me blankly. Or I'll come up with an analogy that I think works really well, but in the end just doesn't communicate what I was trying to say.
Sorry, W, but I still don't get it. Then again, math and science were always my weak areas in school. I do better with reading, writing, history, social studies, etc.
So, I am not arguing with what you are saying, I just don't understand what you are saying. Don't worry though, it happens to me too. I'll read something that communicates very well to me and share it with others, who end up scratching their heads and staring at me blankly. Or I'll come up with an analogy that I think works really well, but in the end just doesn't communicate what I was trying to say.
I don't completely get it myself but I feel I have ventured farther than most...
By my thinking out loud someone else is seeing something maybe I don't. If they are a giving in a meek and kind manner hopefully they may share it and add to what I have provided here.
You can be sure I will continue to expound on these principles as we relate to other aspects that parallel this discussion.
A bit about me. I had an A+ in high-school geometry and B+ in high-school chemistry (non catholic private schools) and still have most of my assumptions, axioms, corollaries and theorems memorized (I could prove nearly any geometric hypothesis placed in front of me as a teen.).
Heck, I still have all of the prepositions and form of the verb TO BE dedicated to memory.
Besides I am an entertainer and have hundreds (if not a thousand) of songs lyrics/melodies/chords committed to memory including all of the scripture I know.
Yet my knowledge of the scriptures far surpass any base knowledge I possess. (at least in personal value)
So with all of this knowledge it seems I have the most to lose in a non-gnostic hierarchy.
But besides all of this knowledge I have empathy and compassion for others.
So I know well the spirit and it's "way"...
If I was dishonest with God and the innate equality of the holy spirit I would be a gnostic.
Even with the "knowledge" of the spirit, sometime it is difficult for me to even touch down let alone land...
A inquiry on the value of zero in light of spiritual matters. About the trinity and it being referred to as time being past, present and future. (kind of a vague but thought provoking answer)
I consider the trinity not representing the value of "one" but instead representing "zero" in a quantum state (possibly even binary).
Where zero is the seed of all numbers. This is my own unique idea and seems truly plausible.
Where unity does not equal "oneness" but the lack of any value. Oneness with zero... Meekness and humility to the creator of all value. Zero equals creator and one equals creation. The value of one must reflect the nature of zero to become eternal which would be zero in a quantum state of eternal "timelessness". Where matter and mass transcend the physical model of the universe.
And zero reflects in it's creative ability omnipresence on the "timeline" and all of the vector planes of creation show their abeyance to an imageless, sizeless point. As infinity in PI is also the diameter of a circle (seed).
A point has no length, breadth, depth or height. Only God can reveal the hidden value of all numbers.
Mt 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Comment: When we are created (born again) in the "image of zero" we become quanta.
I think I will ask my hubby and son to look at these and see if they can help me understand. My husband has done some reading and studying on quantum physics - which seems to mixed in with what you are saying. My son (the 10 year old) is very very good with math (for his age) and has some of his own interesting theories on the number zero and the concept of infinity. :)
*****OOPS, posted by Abigail from my husband's computer********* W, meet Sushi. :D
I will add that quantum physics are things like electrons and neutrons... things smaller than the theoretically smallest thing there is, an atom.
If things are smaller than the smallest thing there is then we are a world within a world, a dimensional shift from the actual true reality.
The mystics teach that the flesh is but an illusion of the spirit and the physicists teach that the physical world is only an illusion of the quantum reality.
And when you begin to talk about dark energy and dark matter you are taking a page right out of the Bible...
"darkness was upon the face of the deep"
Could that be related to the black hole [abyss] that is theorized to be at the center of the milky way and the black holes that some new scientists theorize are within the earth and are the cause of the hurricanes and the circular wind patterns even massive tornadoes. Does that not alter the biblical perspective of the "god of this world"?
Luke 4:6
And the devil said unto him, All this power [energy] will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
DWW, I have asked Sushi to read and will get his thoughts tomorrow evening, as I won't see him much before then.
But I did want to respond to one thing you said:
Could that be related to the black hole [abyss]that is theorized to be at the center of the milky way and the black holes that some new scientists theorize are within the earth and are the cause of the hurricanes and the circular wind patterns even massive tornadoes. Does that not alter the biblical perspective of the "god of this world"?
I only believe in one "God of this world" and it isn't the Christian devil. One of the problems I have with Christianity is that they give far to much power to this being called the devil. They study him, fear him, often see him in nearly everything that doesn't go their way. I'm sorry, but to me that borders on idolatry.
I am not saying there may not be "evil spirit beings", I really have no idea if such things exist or not. I've never seen one, but then, I've never seen God with my eyes either. What I do know, is if such beings exist, they are not all powerful and all knowing. I do know my God does not wish me to have any other God's before him. And, I know that focusing my thoughts on such things does not bring good things to me emotionally or spiritually.
So ultimately, I really don't have much of a biblical perspective of the devil, nor will I credit such an entity as the God of this world.
When negative things happen in life (and everyone experiences negative things sometimes) I prefer to look for the lesson in it. Look for how I can grow or become stronger by overcoming, etc.
I think that is one of our primary purposes in these bodies on this planet. To learn, to grow, to become stronger by overcoming.
edited to add a p.s.
read my tag line in blue below and that will tell you what I think about "evil".
It isn't that I entirely miss what you have been trying to say regarding Adam and Eve, DNA, quantum physics, etc. I am not totally ignorant of science, it is just a more difficult field of learning for me.
It is more like I almost see your point, but there is a piece or two missing. But, that is often the case with me when it comes to the more mystical discussions. I have studied some of Kabbalah too. I get the simpler concepts within it. However, because I am a visual thinker and I cannot "see it" as a picture in my mind, it sort of lies just out of my grasp. I also think in terms of the practical. While the mystical fascinates me and I get a great thrill when I come to a new understanding, I have yet to put together enough pieces of it for it to have much practical meaning for me. In other words, I haven't seen how much of it effects my day to day living, how I would apply such information to how I live my life, how such information would help me to be a better person, etc.
Also, understand, I do not view Jesus as traditonal, typical Christians do. I am not even sure he was anymore a son of God than you, I, or anyone else who has ever lived. I do think he had a deeper grasp of Kabbalah than the scholars of his time did - quite likely even more so than the scholars of our time. But in terms of my understanding of the Christian view of him, the jury is still out on that one for me. If I am ever to view him in that manner, it will be up to God to show it to me. I learned the hard way that following man is folly. I study what other's have written and learned, to be sure. But I only walk away with those things that sit right in my heart and mind. I figure that is God showing me what I need to see at that given moment.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Comment: What does the world use to conform people? LAW
So the renewing of the mind requires the spiritual law of liberty to fulfill the will of God.
The law of liberty is the will of God for word [law] of truth [liberty] is the will of God.
So we renew our mind by the acknowledgment of the spirit in ourselves and others and this is how we can love others as Christ Jesus loved us...
This is how we do not become conformed to the sin consciousness and become liberated by the spiritual consciousness of God's will.
John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Comment: What does the world use to conform people? LAW
So the renewing of the mind requires the spiritual law of liberty to fulfill the will of God.
The law of liberty is the will of God for word [law] of truth [liberty] is the will of God.
So we renew our mind by the acknowledgment of the spirit in ourselves and others and this is how we can love others as Christ Jesus loved us...
This is how we do not become conformed to the sin consciousness and become liberated by the spiritual consciousness of God's will.
John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
The world conforms people via many methods, not just one. Law, religion, peer pressure, money, sex, promises of love, etc. etc.
Who does the transforming, btw, in the verse you quoted? Become transformed by the renewing of the mind. What exactly does "renewing" mean? What exactly is "sin conciousness"? consciousness of whose sins? is that term "sin consciousness" even in the Bible?
Twice in the 4th chapter of Deuteronomy (verses 35 and 39 respectively) the Torah makes this amazing statement:
You were shown to know that G-d is the G-d,1 there is none else beside Him. . . . .
the Kabbalists and the Chassidic masters: "there is none else" means that there is none else. Indeed, they explain, to maintain that there are existences other than G-d is ultimately the same as maintaining that there are other "gods" beside Him. What real difference is there between saying that the universe is governed by thousands of gods, or by a god of good and an equally potent god of evil, or by a very powerful god who (almost) always triumphs over a much weaker Satan, or by a great and mighty god who pervades every iota of existence save for a single cubic centimeter of space? Ultimately, one is saying that there is more than one independently potent force in existence. To say that there is a god with the power to create and destroy universes, punish the wicked and reward the righteous, cause galaxies to spin and crops to grow, but that there also exists a single pebble with a power independent of His -- be it only the power to exist -- is to deny His exclusive divinity and power.
The world conforms people via many methods, not just one. Law, religion, peer pressure, money, sex, promises of love, etc. etc.
Who does the transforming, btw, in the verse you quoted? Become transformed by the renewing of the mind. What exactly does "renewing" mean? What exactly is "sin conciousness"? consciousness of whose sins? is that term "sin consciousness" even in the Bible?
It has been my assumption (although I am not sure I can back it up Biblically) that God does the transforming while the individual believer renews his mind to the Word. The word 'renewing' is the Greek word 'anakainosis'- a 'making new again'. It is only used twice in the NT, and is always translated renewing.
'Sin consciousness' is being conscious of or dwelling on one's sins, I think; and I think it would have to be one's own sins, not other people's, which would fall into the category of hypocrisy; since most of us are not exempt from committing the same sins. I am not sure if the term 'sin consciousness' is used in the Bible, and right now I am too tired to do an exhaustive word study. Just some thoughts.
I am not sure if the term 'sin consciousness' is used in the Bible
It is not. However, guiltiness is a biblical concept, and an important one. Those who wish to eliminate it as being 'negative' are missing the gospel message. Guilt is God's gift by which he tells us that we aren't okay. Knowing we aren't okay is necessary to come to Christ. And once we come to Christ and have that guilty stin washed clean, we still need guilt consciousness to alert us that we're screwing up and in need of repentance.
Removing sin consciousness from one who sins is possible, but it's NOT a good thing.
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DrWearWord
Agape is impossible without the law of liberty...
John 13:34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
Comment: Is this NEW commandment (golden rule) to love each other as we love ourselves or rather to love others as Christ loved us?
Moses' law was an eye for an eye or, love others as you love yourself.... where the new law is love others as Christ has love us.
Luke:6:35
But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil.
Matthew 5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth: 39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also. 40 And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloke also. 41 And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain. 42 Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
43 Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. 44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Colossians 3:14
And above all these things put on charity [agape], which is the bond of perfectness.
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DrWearWord
also...
Was Jesus Christ himself the sabbath?
Mt 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
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DrWearWord
Acts 13:39
And by him all that believe are justified from all things, from which ye could not be justified by the law of Moses.
Comment: We are in the era/age of the sabbath...
Romans 3:27
Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second. 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. 13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
Deuteronomy 5:3
The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.
Comment: This new covenant is written in the hearts not on stone...
2 Corinthinans 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament [covenant]; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. 7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
Hebrews 8:6 But now hath he [Jesus Christ] obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
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Abigail
But would it have been a free-will choice then? How could one make a free-will choice to walk with God, to walk with a being separate from him/herself, without self awareness?
Agreed.Can you explain what this means?
Most scholars would agree there is no way Moses could have written the book of Genesis. It is believed Genesis is a conglomeration (SP) of two different authors, one a male, the other a female. I have more on this somewhere in the "Harlot by the Side of the Road Thread" but I don't know what page.The how does one who is not "born again" learn and ever become born again? It can't simply be from reading the bible, or that would seem grossly unjust and for hubndreds of years there were people who never had access to it.
That God knew what Adam and Eve would do, I can buy. That God formed and made them in sin - that you'd have to document.There is a post on this in the Adam and Eve thread, if you are intersted.
Why can't it be? Just because your mind can't grasp it, doesn't mean it cannot be, no? While I would agree God has no image, God does have aspects, traits, character, elsewise, how could God be love, spirit, holy, etc.Can you document this scripturally or even scientifically?
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DrWearWord
Wow Abagail!
Thanks for taking the time to respond so succinctly.
I can tell by your questions that I am not making myself clearly understood.
I will admit that I did traverse a large amount of ground but it seems that maybe thinly in some places.
Time has two beginnings for humans and the earth the first was the physical time and the second was perceptible time.
For God is timeless and has no beginning or end.
When a tree falls in the forest alone does it make a sound?
Just because time began at the creation of the heavens and the earth is it really time where there is no one within creation capable of perceiving it.
Was the devil able to perceive days and nights when there was no moon yet? Possibly not, considering Lucifer's kingdom is not infinite for even light has a finite amount of energy with which to radiate once disconnected from God's unlimited power source of zero, for zero feeds and supports an infinity of numbers both positive and negative.
We cannot reason the Bible in a void we must see creation in light of science.
Science says time began in the big bang but was there anyone able to perceive it back then?
So I reckon that time does not begin at creation but it begins when creation is capable of perceiving it is just as a tree makes no perceptible sound unless there is someone present to hear it. For God did not create the world in vain. The purpose of time was humanity and the spirit (of consciousness and fellowship with God) not the flesh and the physical world.
I will come back and address each of your thoughtful points.
I thank you Abigail for taking the time to compose your thoughts and I will do my best to try to make a sometimes seemingly confusing doctrine a bit more clear.
I beg for opposition and debate. This is why I am so wordy... It gives so much room and rope to dissect and disassemble and catch me in my unawares.
I am used to forums where I have to explain every single detail because they have never heard the rightly divided word of God. I become first a novelty and the over time a profound peculiarity.
Yet here some say that I am telling them nothing new but they deny the truth (figure that one out) That is like being aware of time but denying it's existence... Well I am aware that what I says is new, not all of it but a degree of it is out of my own reasoning and I have never been taught it other than from my own induction from the word. Parallel lines never meet.
I have over six thousand replies (over 8 years) that I have written, some very lengthy replies, in another forum on spirituality. So I am not new to this and I am ready for the ride of my life with this forum because I know that the participants in this forum ARE (spiritually) educated and will give me a run for my money (so to speak). I am ready to preach the gospel to those who are at Greaspot!
:)
You will hear some very strange things come out of me and I do care what others have to say. I don't do it for the shock value I do it because I believe in the love of God and that this love is complete and without prejudice. I prefer if you want me to read a book or link that you not just post the book but you say in your own words what it is in the book that actually contradicts in particular what i am saying. If it is the entire book that contradicts me please give me the highlights. you can totally disagree with me and I will not hate you or hold a vendetta. I want to learn...
I am not just quoting scriptures at people but I am giving my own time and energy into saying what I think about them. I expect the same strategy out of others and not just hit and run tactics.
Say in our own words why... for I have taken the time to read and formulate my own ideas and share them and I expect no less from others who choose to challenge me with empty rhetoric.
I have been challenged in the very same manner many times and be it my brother/sister in Christ Jesus or a new believer they both are substantively lacking when they do not expound their ideas in their own words.
As Dr. would say "they have not made it their own..."
So if they do not believe enough to make it their own why should I have to defend something that is suspect to begin with?
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TheEvan
If that were true, nobody could get saved, for salvation begins by a revelation to the unsaved...
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Eyesopen
Could you please explain where your thought process came from concerning this?
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Abigail
Well, I am hit and miss in these forums as I have time and am moved to participate. I only today got around to wading through that somewhat lengthy post of yours. :)
Well my 10 year old son would present a very strong argument that it does.I agree the two must agree and when they don't, either the scientists got it wrong or we are understanding doctrine wrong.
Science says time began in the big bang but was there anyone able to perceive it back then?
So I reckon that time does not begin at creation but it begins when creation is capable of perceiving it is just as a tree makes no perceptible sound unless there is someone present to hear it. For God did not create the world in vain. The purpose of time was humanity and the spirit (of consciousness and fellowship with God) not the flesh and the physical world. I think you will find the vast majority of people who participate down here in the basement are seeking truth. Some have rejected portions of VPW's teachings. Some have rejected all of it and started over, and would say where the two agree the credit is not necessarily VPW's. Myself, I went back to scratch and am studying Judaism. There is a tremendous amount of information to be found there.Ultimately, it matters not to me whether we agree or disagree. God tells us those who seek shall find. Right or wrong, I figure if we are seeking, we will ultimately find. Whatever path I am on is the path to God, even if starts from a different place than yours, even if it at times branches off in different directions than yours.
Defend? no. Explain, expound, be willing to give, take, discuss, etc., yes.
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DrWearWord
God placed in every persons heart the desire for eternal life... Even animals can perceive the importance of survival.
Believing only requires the instinct for survival (life) and the ability to ask God for this gift. Also, a brain size large enough to contain the idea of a creator (or sanctification by others).
Do you need to know what is in a gift before receiving it? Yes, we perceive that this gift is the source of life. We need to trust those who bear gifts. People are aware of what they are receiving before they obtain they simply do not comprehend its greatness until they have a chance to operate it once it has been received... lambano dechomai
The spirit does not give us believing it give us faith. ("before faith came...")
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DrWearWord
Abigail asked the same question, I must be being really vague.
Please give it some thought though.
God cut out the male Y lineage in the Christ line and replaced it with a sinless life in the Y chromosome. God created a new Y chromosome in Mary. This Y chromosome was the SON of God. We cut out the flesh (X Chromosome) when we die and we leave our fleshly DNA in the ground. Thus X and Y are only a launching ground for the spirit which in the end has no need of with our own X or Y Chromosome because God replaces these earthly constructs of those with heavenly quantum or zero. For we become sons of God and not sons of man. An we become siblings of the generation of Christ rather than generations on our own. (this is hard even for me to explain)
This flesh part is the egg part contributed by the female of which the Y chromosome (except for the life in the Y chromosome) is a mutation of the DNA of X... So when God created a Y chromosome he still borrowed the flesh from X but he created the life in the Y mutation. This is why Jesus resembled Mary his mother also but was undoubtedly male.
This Michael who "fights for God's people" is a "physically" oriented being (wrestling with Jacob) where Gabriel who has been depicted in the clouds can easily be associated with the life force of the physical and Christ being the son of God becomes the head and ABOVE merely formed or made beings. For Christ walked in body, soul and spirit. This spirit of Christ was the throne once belonging to lucifer that was lost through lucifer's treachery. The two parts (Gabriel and Michael) and this (light) part he will take with him into the cosmos. This X chromosome of Mary, Jesus kept and though we will leave our X and Y chromosome in the dust at our grave we will be part of Christ's X chromosome that he derived from Mary. Kind of convoluted huh?
These holy angels are embodied within each "one third of the "heavens" one third being brought back into submission to God through Christ Jesus the heavenly complete future body, soul and spirit of creation which we someday will inherit in the fullness of "time".
I find that these angels are part of the "creature" (creation). This creature being separate from God in visage but ultimately in the same spirit and image with God and thus still quantum.
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DrWearWord
I have had people frustrated with me and tell me. "can we please stop talking about God?!!!"...
I remark then let's talk about geometry and math, zeros and ones, lets talk about genetics X and Y, let's talk about the existence of life... :)
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Abigail
Sorry, W, but I still don't get it. Then again, math and science were always my weak areas in school. I do better with reading, writing, history, social studies, etc.
So, I am not arguing with what you are saying, I just don't understand what you are saying. Don't worry though, it happens to me too. I'll read something that communicates very well to me and share it with others, who end up scratching their heads and staring at me blankly. Or I'll come up with an analogy that I think works really well, but in the end just doesn't communicate what I was trying to say.
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DrWearWord
I don't completely get it myself but I feel I have ventured farther than most...
By my thinking out loud someone else is seeing something maybe I don't. If they are a giving in a meek and kind manner hopefully they may share it and add to what I have provided here.
You can be sure I will continue to expound on these principles as we relate to other aspects that parallel this discussion.
A bit about me. I had an A+ in high-school geometry and B+ in high-school chemistry (non catholic private schools) and still have most of my assumptions, axioms, corollaries and theorems memorized (I could prove nearly any geometric hypothesis placed in front of me as a teen.).
Heck, I still have all of the prepositions and form of the verb TO BE dedicated to memory.
Besides I am an entertainer and have hundreds (if not a thousand) of songs lyrics/melodies/chords committed to memory including all of the scripture I know.
Yet my knowledge of the scriptures far surpass any base knowledge I possess. (at least in personal value)
So with all of this knowledge it seems I have the most to lose in a non-gnostic hierarchy.
But besides all of this knowledge I have empathy and compassion for others.
So I know well the spirit and it's "way"...
If I was dishonest with God and the innate equality of the holy spirit I would be a gnostic.
Even with the "knowledge" of the spirit, sometime it is difficult for me to even touch down let alone land...
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DrWearWord
Here is something else I just wrote...
A inquiry on the value of zero in light of spiritual matters. About the trinity and it being referred to as time being past, present and future. (kind of a vague but thought provoking answer)
I consider the trinity not representing the value of "one" but instead representing "zero" in a quantum state (possibly even binary).
Where zero is the seed of all numbers. This is my own unique idea and seems truly plausible.
Where unity does not equal "oneness" but the lack of any value. Oneness with zero... Meekness and humility to the creator of all value. Zero equals creator and one equals creation. The value of one must reflect the nature of zero to become eternal which would be zero in a quantum state of eternal "timelessness". Where matter and mass transcend the physical model of the universe.
And zero reflects in it's creative ability omnipresence on the "timeline" and all of the vector planes of creation show their abeyance to an imageless, sizeless point. As infinity in PI is also the diameter of a circle (seed).
A point has no length, breadth, depth or height. Only God can reveal the hidden value of all numbers.
Mt 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
Comment: When we are created (born again) in the "image of zero" we become quanta.
Peace with God
RexRed
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Sushi
I think I will ask my hubby and son to look at these and see if they can help me understand. My husband has done some reading and studying on quantum physics - which seems to mixed in with what you are saying. My son (the 10 year old) is very very good with math (for his age) and has some of his own interesting theories on the number zero and the concept of infinity. :)
*****OOPS, posted by Abigail from my husband's computer********* W, meet Sushi. :D
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DrWearWord
I will add that quantum physics are things like electrons and neutrons... things smaller than the theoretically smallest thing there is, an atom.
If things are smaller than the smallest thing there is then we are a world within a world, a dimensional shift from the actual true reality.
The mystics teach that the flesh is but an illusion of the spirit and the physicists teach that the physical world is only an illusion of the quantum reality.
And when you begin to talk about dark energy and dark matter you are taking a page right out of the Bible...
"darkness was upon the face of the deep"
Could that be related to the black hole [abyss] that is theorized to be at the center of the milky way and the black holes that some new scientists theorize are within the earth and are the cause of the hurricanes and the circular wind patterns even massive tornadoes. Does that not alter the biblical perspective of the "god of this world"?
Luke 4:6
And the devil said unto him, All this power [energy] will I give thee, and the glory of them: for that is delivered unto me; and to whomsoever I will I give it.
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Abigail
DWW, I have asked Sushi to read and will get his thoughts tomorrow evening, as I won't see him much before then.
But I did want to respond to one thing you said:
I only believe in one "God of this world" and it isn't the Christian devil. One of the problems I have with Christianity is that they give far to much power to this being called the devil. They study him, fear him, often see him in nearly everything that doesn't go their way. I'm sorry, but to me that borders on idolatry.
I am not saying there may not be "evil spirit beings", I really have no idea if such things exist or not. I've never seen one, but then, I've never seen God with my eyes either. What I do know, is if such beings exist, they are not all powerful and all knowing. I do know my God does not wish me to have any other God's before him. And, I know that focusing my thoughts on such things does not bring good things to me emotionally or spiritually.
So ultimately, I really don't have much of a biblical perspective of the devil, nor will I credit such an entity as the God of this world.
When negative things happen in life (and everyone experiences negative things sometimes) I prefer to look for the lesson in it. Look for how I can grow or become stronger by overcoming, etc.
I think that is one of our primary purposes in these bodies on this planet. To learn, to grow, to become stronger by overcoming.
edited to add a p.s.
read my tag line in blue below and that will tell you what I think about "evil".
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Abigail
Wanted to add. . . .
It isn't that I entirely miss what you have been trying to say regarding Adam and Eve, DNA, quantum physics, etc. I am not totally ignorant of science, it is just a more difficult field of learning for me.
It is more like I almost see your point, but there is a piece or two missing. But, that is often the case with me when it comes to the more mystical discussions. I have studied some of Kabbalah too. I get the simpler concepts within it. However, because I am a visual thinker and I cannot "see it" as a picture in my mind, it sort of lies just out of my grasp. I also think in terms of the practical. While the mystical fascinates me and I get a great thrill when I come to a new understanding, I have yet to put together enough pieces of it for it to have much practical meaning for me. In other words, I haven't seen how much of it effects my day to day living, how I would apply such information to how I live my life, how such information would help me to be a better person, etc.
Also, understand, I do not view Jesus as traditonal, typical Christians do. I am not even sure he was anymore a son of God than you, I, or anyone else who has ever lived. I do think he had a deeper grasp of Kabbalah than the scholars of his time did - quite likely even more so than the scholars of our time. But in terms of my understanding of the Christian view of him, the jury is still out on that one for me. If I am ever to view him in that manner, it will be up to God to show it to me. I learned the hard way that following man is folly. I study what other's have written and learned, to be sure. But I only walk away with those things that sit right in my heart and mind. I figure that is God showing me what I need to see at that given moment.
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cman
eggggggzzzzzaaaactleeeeeeeee
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DrWearWord
Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
Comment: What does the world use to conform people? LAW
So the renewing of the mind requires the spiritual law of liberty to fulfill the will of God.
The law of liberty is the will of God for word [law] of truth [liberty] is the will of God.
So we renew our mind by the acknowledgment of the spirit in ourselves and others and this is how we can love others as Christ Jesus loved us...
This is how we do not become conformed to the sin consciousness and become liberated by the spiritual consciousness of God's will.
John 4:23
But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
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Abigail
The world conforms people via many methods, not just one. Law, religion, peer pressure, money, sex, promises of love, etc. etc.
Who does the transforming, btw, in the verse you quoted? Become transformed by the renewing of the mind. What exactly does "renewing" mean? What exactly is "sin conciousness"? consciousness of whose sins? is that term "sin consciousness" even in the Bible?
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Abigail
Perhaps this section from an article FOUND HERE
will better state what I was trying to say.
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Jeaniam
It has been my assumption (although I am not sure I can back it up Biblically) that God does the transforming while the individual believer renews his mind to the Word. The word 'renewing' is the Greek word 'anakainosis'- a 'making new again'. It is only used twice in the NT, and is always translated renewing.
'Sin consciousness' is being conscious of or dwelling on one's sins, I think; and I think it would have to be one's own sins, not other people's, which would fall into the category of hypocrisy; since most of us are not exempt from committing the same sins. I am not sure if the term 'sin consciousness' is used in the Bible, and right now I am too tired to do an exhaustive word study. Just some thoughts.
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TheEvan
It is not. However, guiltiness is a biblical concept, and an important one. Those who wish to eliminate it as being 'negative' are missing the gospel message. Guilt is God's gift by which he tells us that we aren't okay. Knowing we aren't okay is necessary to come to Christ. And once we come to Christ and have that guilty stin washed clean, we still need guilt consciousness to alert us that we're screwing up and in need of repentance.
Removing sin consciousness from one who sins is possible, but it's NOT a good thing.
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