How could God be in the law and then not in the law and then proclaim he never changes?
SNIP
The law was weak in that it could not love.
So the law was weak because it was devoid of God... For God is love.
God doesn't change. Forgiveness was ALWAYS available. The law wasn't weak in that it could not love - PEOPLE were weak in that they DID NOT love. God's love is within the laws, but when people chose to use the laws not for love, but for their own selfish motivations, people couldn't FIND God within the laws.
Edited to add - consider this, Neither Jesus, Peter, Paul or any of the other apostles taught any new thing, really. It was all there from the begining for those who were willing to see.
God doesn't change. Forgiveness was ALWAYS available. The law wasn't weak in that it could not love - PEOPLE were weak in that they DID NOT love. God's love is within the laws, but when people chose to use the laws not for love, but for their own selfish motivations, people couldn't FIND God within the laws.
Edited to add - consider this, Neither Jesus, Peter, Paul or any of the other apostles taught any new thing, really. It was all there from the begining for those who were willing to see.
I take your post in all respect and thoughtful consideration.
If forgiveness was available then why was Jesus considered a heretic for granting forgiveness...
It is like forgiveness is available but you need God here physically to grant it?
If the law was strong in love then what was the weakness that Paul speaks of concerning the law?
Forgiveness was only for the elite...
Forgiveness of the OT is like the don't ask don't tell policy of the US govt.
If you are a humble translator and they find out you are gay it is immediate dismissal but if you are a marine on the front line firing mortar shells twenty four seven then it is overlooked...
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit [law] of grace [liberty]? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 3 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition [law]; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul [law of liberty].
I take your post in all respect and thoughtful consideration.
If forgiveness was available then why was Jesus considered a heretic for granting forgiveness...
It is like forgiveness is available but you need God here physically to grant it?
If the law was strong in love then what was the weakness that Paul speaks of concerning the law?
Forgiveness was only for the elite...
Forgiveness of the OT is like the don't ask don't tell policy of the US govt.
If you are a humble translator and they find out you are gay it is immediate dismissal but if you are a marine on the front line firing mortar shells twenty four seven then it is overlooked...
Remember, Jesus, Paul, all of them were Jews. Most especially Jesus and Paul were well versed in the teachings of Judaism. I haven't completed my research, but what I have done so far would indicate pretty much everything they taught was already and still is taught within Judaism's various branches.
Forgiveness did exist in O.T. times. Jesus was a "heretic" because he confronted the hard-hearted, fanatical, fundamental Jewish leaders who knew the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law (i.e. the heart of the law - the reasons for it, the intent) and thus caused hardship for the people. It is not so different today even in some branches of Christianity, is it?
Same with Paul - the weakness in the law wasn't the law itself but what PEOPLE did to the law - just as today, the "weakness" within Christianity is often not what Jesus and/or the apostles taught, but what PEOPLE do with their teachings.
This is pure rhetoric... Are you telling me you don't know what the liberty bell is?
"This is pure rhetoric…" I had the same thought about your post…
"Are you telling me you don't know what the liberty bell is?" No – YOU'RE not telling me what YOU meant by YOUR usage of the "liberty bell." I was asking you to clarify your statements. I guess that means you don't intend to answer my other questions in post # 75 either. Or was "This is pure rhetoric" your best effort to express yourself intelligently?
You know, we'd all probably make a lot more headway on this thread if you'd make an effort to communicate like normal folks do. In other words - not playing games, speaking in riddles, being arrogant, ignoring direct questions, and spouting off VPW phrases. Unless you think you're accomplishing something this way. Of course, what you think you're accomplishing and what others think you're accomplishing may be miles apart. At some point I actually thought you were trying to say something meaningful – now I just read it for the entertainment value…ok – so I'm easily amused.
Keeping the straight and narrow is walking in the law of liberty not walking under the law...
NO flesh shall be justified by the deeds of the law...
Romans 3:20
Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
I wish I had a bible in front of me so I could pull out the rest of the verse and context. In any case, I wanted to share something I saw with that one sentence you quoted.
What if the idea behind this statement isn't as we were taught in PFAL - that the law in and of itself is bad (remember Jesus said through the flesh it was made weak - i.e. because of people)
What if, instead Paul is saying that we will never be justified by the law, because by the law we are aware of sin. So, our justification comes else where, yes. BUT, the law is still good in that it teaches us right from wrong.
Another way, we all screw up - none of us will ever be perfect, and with that knowledge of imperfection it is really easy to condemn ourselves and believe we are not "justified". However, the laws are also still useful in that they teach us something and without that understanding one could walk around thinking it was okay to rape people, thinking it was okay to steal, etc. etc.
Mark you summed it up very well here:
we are not bound by the LETTER of the law, which the Pharisees and people like them used to control and manipulate, while completely missing the HEART of the Law. This does not mean we are free to do whatever we want though. We are under a higher Law now - variously called the Law of Christ, the Law of Love, or the Law of Liberty.
I believe that was always the intent with the law too - but people messed it all up, just as they do even today.
WearWord, I am wondering who you studied Kabbalah under and/or if you've been searching it on your own. The reason I ask is there is a lot of stuff, especially on the net and in the New Age section of the bookstores that sell themselves as Kabbalah, but are not. They may be close, they may have some of it - but they miss a lot too.
I have studied some Kabbalah, a lot of it still goes over my head. I have to digest it in very tiny portions. My experience has been that a foundation in Judaism is helpful in understanding it. Also, to study it with the Jews you will get more accurate information. The site I enjoy the most is chabad.org. They are an ultraorthdox group and I am not disciplined enough to practice as they do, but I thoroughly enjoy most of their teachings and have learned much from them. One of the beauties of the teaching of the Chabads is that, despite their strict discpline and practice, they do not follow the "letter of the law" but rather the spirit. In other words, they do what they do out of a depth of understanding and out of love, as opposed to out of legalism.
I have read through a number of your posts and I am somewhat amused by the dialogue that has taken place here. I have a suspicion (though I am as yet not completely certain) that you and many of the others are saying the same things but in very different ways. You still use a lot of the terminology from TWI, and especially for those who were with TWI in the later years under Martindale - those words translate very differently than you may intend them to. In a sense, it seems to me as if you are speaking one language and a number of other people speak an entirely different one - but if there was a translator you would be saying very similar things.
CMan, thanks a bunch for the links!!!!! I am going to thoroughly enjoy those websites! :)
Okay, am going back to Rom 3:19 and ff for context. I may play with some different translations through the links you provided, Cman.
NIV: 19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify
The Complete Jewish Bible: 19 Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God's adverse judgment. 20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteousn on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are. 21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God's way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear - although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well - 22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile,
Okay, now I will break it down a bit, for those who have the patience to read the entire post
The Complete Jewish Bible: 19 Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God's adverse judgment.
and
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
These two verses esentially say the same thing, IF you understand the teachings of Judaism.
Judaism teaches that ALL people are children of God, both Jews and non-Jews. However, the Jews swore an oath to follow the laws of Torah whereas everyone else is only bound to the Noatic laws. So, what this is saying is that the Torah was given to the Jews (those living within its framework) for the specific purpose of silencing ALL people by showing them they all DESERVE God's adverse judgment. In other words, no one could live up it it perfectly! See, the law was good in that it taught us two things 1) right from wrong and 2) that we are all imperfect. Unfortunately, the religious leaders of Jesus' time, forgot or ignored the fact that they too were imperfect, forgot that in condemning others they were also condemning themselves. Jesus was considered heretical because he threw that in their faces, so to speak.
20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteousn on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are. 21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God's way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear - although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well - 22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile,
I like the longer translations, because I think they are more clear. Legalist observance of the Torah lacks the depth of understanding and heart. It is done out of compulsion instead of out of love. The result is that instead of focusing on God's love they become focused on their own shortcomings, and eventually they are no longer focused on god at all, but only on themselves or on the sins of others (which is usually a result of trying to make oneself feel better by putting down others).
It goes on to say God's way of making peole righteous has been made clear - that it (righteousness) comes from God as the Torah (law) and prophets have been a witness too (again, the information has been there all along, but people missed it).
..."Free from the Law" means that because of what Jesus did, we are not bound by the LETTER of the law, which the Pharisees and people like them used to control and manipulate, while completely missing the HEART of the Law. This does not mean we are free to do whatever we want though. We are under a higher Law now - variously called the Law of Christ, the Law of Love, or the Law of Liberty. It means that while not bound by the legalistic letter, we still are bound by the higher standard of Christ's love. Expecting people to adhere to that standard is not putting them under Law again. Jesus said that unless our righteousness exceeded that of the Pharisees we would not enter the Kingdom of God. Paul said we are created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works. It was never God's intention that we should just "get saved" (whatever that meant) and then live any way we wanted. God is interested in us developing Christlike character by the power of His spirit, and living according to a new life and a new heart, which is to be demonstrated by our works.
God doesn't change. Forgiveness was ALWAYS available. The law wasn't weak in that it could not love - PEOPLE were weak in that they DID NOT love. God's love is within the laws, but when people chose to use the laws not for love, but for their own selfish motivations, people couldn't FIND God within the laws.
Edited to add - consider this, Neither Jesus, Peter, Paul or any of the other apostles taught any new thing, really. It was all there from the begining for those who were willing to see.
Great posts! Maybe it’s very simply the heart of the law from different angles. The Ten Commandments show a concern for the integrity of relationships – mostly from a negative aspect – “this is what it is NOT.” Jesus said the intent of the law is to foster a genuine love for God and neighbor – showing the positive aspect of the law… Paul said the law is good, holy, righteous and spiritual in Romans 7. God intended the law for good. But in Romans 7 Paul also expressed our faulty response to the law at times – it is sin’s rebelliousness…sin’s seduction…sin’s way of twisting things out of shape – to take something intended for good and fill it with criminal intent. Perhaps the bigger the “no trespassing” sign – the more appealing it becomes sometimes – the grass always looking greener on the other side of the fence. This is how the law looks from sin’s angle!
I finally finished reading through your posts in the political forum - which I think is what prompted this thread. I am more and more convinced that you and I are on a pretty similar page and it is simply an issue of wording that is different.
In anycase, I like what you have to say thus far and I think a large part of the problem is one of communication. I hope you will keep talking and eventually we will come to understand each other's languages better.
Remember, Jesus, Paul, all of them were Jews. Most especially Jesus and Paul were well versed in the teachings of Judaism. I haven't completed my research, but what I have done so far would indicate pretty much everything they taught was already and still is taught within Judaism's various branches.
Forgiveness did exist in O.T. times. Jesus was a "heretic" because he confronted the hard-hearted, fanatical, fundamental Jewish leaders who knew the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law (i.e. the heart of the law - the reasons for it, the intent) and thus caused hardship for the people. It is not so different today even in some branches of Christianity, is it?
Same with Paul - the weakness in the law wasn't the law itself but what PEOPLE did to the law - just as today, the "weakness" within Christianity is often not what Jesus and/or the apostles taught, but what PEOPLE do with their teachings.
Same s h i t, different day.
The law was weak in that it could not grant people spiritual justification.
God doesn't change. Forgiveness was ALWAYS available. The law wasn't weak in that it could not love - PEOPLE were weak in that they DID NOT love. God's love is within the laws, but when people chose to use the laws not for love, but for their own selfish motivations, people couldn't FIND God within the laws...
When you mentioned the weakness of people I thought of the relation of the law / God's Spirit to sin being similar to virus detection programs. In order to protect your computer one of the things a virus detection program must do is identify viruses. In the medical realm, what little I've read about biological viruses is very interesting. They cannot reproduce themselves but essentially attack normal cells and dictate to them "make more of me" [the virus] – any medical folks out there feel free to chime in and make corrections. What little I know of PCs – I think computer viruses work in a similar fashion – in that they need the normal data/functions on the PC to do their dirty work – IT folks out there feel free to chime in and make corrections.
Likening sin to a virus – I thought Romans 7 and 8 paint a vivid picture of the law / God's Spirit being virus protection programs - temporary solutions to man's dilemma. Sin has always been present since the fall of man – and in my opinion it has infected the very fabricate of our being. Sin can take anything good and twist it into something bad. I guess it's going to take a complete system overhaul to eradicate that particular virus [which is a part of my Christian hope in the Lord's return]. However, God has always provided work-around solutions until that glorious day.
Romans 7:7-25 NIV
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 8:1-17 NIV
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, "Abba,[h] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Let's get what is weak straight from what is said, then hypothesize...
KJV: Mt 26:41
41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
KJV: Mk 14:38
38Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
KJV: Ac 20:35
35I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
KJV: Ro 4:19
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
KJV: Ro 8:3
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
KJV: Ro 14:1
Chapter 14
1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
KJV: Ro 14:2
2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
KJV: Ro 14:21
21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
KJV: Ro 15:1
Chapter 15
1We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
KJV: 1 Co 1:27
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
KJV: 1 Co 4:10
10We are fools for Christ’s sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
KJV: 1 Co 8:7
7Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
KJV: 1 Co 8:9
9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
KJV: 1 Co 8:10
10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
KJV: 1 Co 8:11
11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
KJV: 1 Co 8:12
12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
KJV: 1 Co 9:22
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
KJV: 1 Co 11:30
30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
KJV: 2 Co 10:10
10For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.
KJV: 2 Co 11:21
21I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
KJV: 2 Co 11:29
29Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
KJV: 2 Co 12:10
10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
KJV: 2 Co 13:3
3Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
KJV: 2 Co 13:4
4For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
KJV: 2 Co 13:9
9For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.
KJV: Ga 4:9
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
KJV: 1 Th 5:14
14Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
T-Bone you might like this - it is from the Complete Jewish Bible. I am going to bold face a few of the things that stand out to me:
7 Therefore, what are we to say? That the Torah is sinful? Heaven forbid! Rather, the function of the Torah was that without it, I would not have known what sin is. For example, I would not have become conscious of what greed is if the Torah had not said, "Thou shalt not covet."v 8 But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, worked in me all kinds of evil desires - for apart from Torah, sin is dead. 9 I was once alive outside the framework of Torah. But when the commandment really encountered me, sin sprang to life, 10 and I died. The commandment that was intended to bring me life was found to be bringing me death! 11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me; and through the commandment, sin killed me. 12 So the Torah is holy; that is, the commandment is holy, just and good. 13 Then did something good become for me the source of death? Heaven forbid! Rather, it was sin working death in me through something good, so that sin might be clearly exposed as sin, so that sin through the commandment might come to be experienced as sinful beyond measure.
14 For we know that the Torah is of the Spirit; but as for me, I am bound to the old nature, sold to sin as a slave. 15 I don't understand my own behavior - I don't do what I want to do; instead, I do the very thing I hate! 16 Now if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am agreeing that the Torah is good. 17 But now it is no longer "the real me" doing it, but the sin housed inside me. 18 For I know that there is nothing good housed inside me - that is, inside my old nature. I can want what is good, but I can't do it! 19 For I don't do the good I want; instead, the evil that I don't want is what I do! 20 But if I am doing what "the real me" doesn't want, it is no longer "the real me" doing it but the sin housed inside me. 21 So I find it to be the rule, a kind of perverse "torah," that although I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me! 22 For in my inner self I completely agree with God's Torah; 23 but in my various parts, I see a different "torah," one that battles with the Torah in my mind and makes me a prisoner of sin's "torah," which is operating in my various parts. 24 What a miserable creature I am! Who will rescue me from this body bound for death? 25 Thanks be to God [, he will]! - through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord! To sum up: with my mind, I am a slave of God's Torah; but with my old nature, I am a slave of sin's "Torah."
1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua. 2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the "Torah" of sin and death. 3 For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one [but without sin]. God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, 4 so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants. 5 For those who identify with their old nature set their minds on the things of the old nature, but those who identify with the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. 6 Having one's mind controlled by the old nature is death, but having one's mind controlled by the Spirit is life and shalom. 7 For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot. 8 Thus, those who identify with their old nature cannot please God. 9 But you, you do not identify with your old nature but with the Spirit - provided the Spirit of God is living inside you, for anyone who doesn't have the Spirit of the Messiah doesn't belong to him.
10 However, if the Messiah is in you, then, on the one hand, the body is dead because of sin; but, on the other hand, the Spirit is giving life because God considers you righteous. 11 And if the Spirit of the One who raised Yeshua from the dead is living in you, then the One who raised the Messiah Yeshua from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit living in you. 12 So then, brothers, we don't owe a thing to our old nature that would require us to live according to our old nature. 13 For if you live according to your old nature, you will certainly die; but if, by the Spirit, you keep putting to death the practices of the body, you will live. 14 All who are led by God's Spirit are God's sons. 15 For you did not receive a spirit of slavery to bring you back again into fear; on the contrary, you received the Spirit, who makes us sons and by whose power we cry out, "Abba!" (that is, "Dear Father!"). 16 The Spirit himself bears witness with our own spirits that we are children of God;
17 and if we are children, then we are also heirs, heirs of God and joint-heirs with the Messiah - provided we are suffering with him in order also to be glorified with him
Okay, I'm going to try to pull this together as best I can.
First Torah = Law. The laws are good in that they taught us right from wrong. I use the example of infants and toddlers. Infants and young toddlers do not know right from wrong, they only know what they want and need and they will do whatever it takes to get those wants and needs fulfilled. As parents, we use praise and punishment to teach them right from wrong, we make rules (i.e. laws, Torah) as the Torah does as well.
However, even as adults we are imperfect, even the best of us have moments of selfishness, etc. The law could not fix that. The law could teach us a certain action was wrong, but it could not prevent us from desiring to take that action. Likewise, we could take an action with the best of intentions and still come out with a bad result.
Now Kabbalah (which both Paul and Jesus were well versed in) teaches that all of this world is an illusion. Bear with me, because I am going to have serious trouble finding the words to communicat this and even I only understand it on a somewhat periphreal (sp) level.
The idea, however, is that as you work your way through Kabbalah and become expert at practicing it, the illusion begins to fall away. I suspect Jesus and perhaps even Paul had mastered that. In fact, I find it interesting that Paul says he was alive outside the framework of Torah, then inside the framework of Torah he died because through the commandman sin killed him.
Hmmmm - -
In the old testament there were sacrifices to be made for sin - sin offerings of various animals (life). The ultimate offering of sin would be the death of self, figuratively speaking, or in a sense the death of certain aspects of the ego (damn I wish I could remember my psychology terminology better :) )
Paul goes on to say "Now if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am agreeing that the Torah is good. 17 But now it is no longer "the real me" doing it, but the sin housed inside me. 18 For I know that there is nothing good housed inside me - that is, inside my old nature. "
It is something of a schizophrenic statement, and yet it makes sense if you don't take it literally. He is sort of separating out the different aspects of his ego (for lack of a better word). It is quite Freudian in a sense.
Again it is here: "God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, 4 so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants. "
We are not to run our lives according to what our old nature (ego) wants but according to what the spirit wants. It is still a choice though yes, every day, every minute a choice. Am I going to go steal that beer or am I going to pay for it? Well, to make the right choice, we have to kill the ego - the part of us that would argue in our brain somewhere that is perfectly okay to steal it and we have to act according to what God tells us. Much of this we know from the laws, yes. Even within Christianity today they say "though shalt not steal". The laws didn't literally die and go away. They still exist, we still have a choice.
And here: "For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot. "
Again, even after the age of Messiah, there is still a choice to be made. We can allow our mind to be run by the ego, or we can practice as kabbalah and destroy the go and submit to God.
Oy, I am not sure how much sense I am making here. I guess again, the point goes right back to - the information was there all along. Jesus and Paul didn't teach anything new. What they did do, however, was bring the information out to the masses (most of whom were NOT schooled in Kabbalah as that was by and large only for the very well versed in the laws such as Rabbis). The simplified the information so that it was somewhat easier to understand - they said it in terms of the people of their time.
I think one of the big differences between today (at least in this country - lol) and biblical times is the freedom for the individual to choose. If you read the OT you will see time and time again where great men of God made choices that were contrary to the law and did not suffer consenquences and were not reproved by God. Abraham lied about Sarah. Moses married a "stranger". Lot's daughers had sex with him.
Then there are those who broke the laws and suffered consequences for it. What is the difference? Why is there a difference? Because the laws are concrete and humanity and life is not. Is it sin to steal medication from a pharmacy to save the life of another human being, if that is THE ONLY way to get that medication and save the life????
Well, I guess I'll let God be the ultimate judge of that. But in OT days, and especially in the time of Jesus, the religious rules ruled with a concrete hammer. Thus sayeth the law, no exception (unless of course it was for one of the rulers). Jesus returned our relationship with God back to a personal and individual one (which is what it was intended to be all along). He put it back on the individual - you walk with God, you decide if you will live by the flesh or live by the spirit. The law cannot always give you a concrete answer on what is right and what is wrong, because there are always going to be exceptions to the rules of law.
Okay, I realize this is a long and circular post. Take from it what you can :)
the phrase "law of liberty" came up in another thread so I started looking at other translations of this phrase.
Almost every translation beyond KJV says "perfect law". Interestingly, it is found in James where people are told to be doers of the law and not hearers only.
Abigail, that is a great translation - the Complete Jewish Bible – I have it at home. Wish I had time to check out all the avenues of a thread. Oh – that reminds me – not too long ago I bought The Jewish Study Bible, editors Adele Berlin and Marc Zvi Brettler. It features The Jewish Publication Society Tanakh Translation. An excerpt from the liner notes:
"The Jewish Study Bible is a major accomplishment. It provides accessible essays from the full gamut of Jewish scholarship, and a running commentary that draws liberally from both traditional and scientific perspectives." I'd have to say the insight I've enjoyed from your posts was a strong factor in my purchase of the book.
...I think one of the big differences between today (at least in this country - lol) and biblical times is the freedom for the individual to choose. If you read the OT you will see time and time again where great men of God made choices that were contrary to the law and did not suffer consenquences and were not reproved by God. Abraham lied about Sarah. Moses married a "stranger". Lot's daughers had sex with him.
Then there are those who broke the laws and suffered consequences for it. What is the difference? Why is there a difference? Because the laws are concrete and humanity and life is not. Is it sin to steal medication from a pharmacy to save the life of another human being, if that is THE ONLY way to get that medication and save the life????
Well, I guess I'll let God be the ultimate judge of that. But in OT days, and especially in the time of Jesus, the religious rules ruled with a concrete hammer. Thus sayeth the law, no exception (unless of course it was for one of the rulers). Jesus returned our relationship with God back to a personal and individual one (which is what it was intended to be all along). He put it back on the individual - you walk with God, you decide if you will live by the flesh or live by the spirit. The law cannot always give you a concrete answer on what is right and what is wrong, because there are always going to be exceptions to the rules of law...
That was an interesting point – and reminded me of something Jesus said:
Matthew 23:23 NASB
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."
It's odd isn't it – how sometimes we can be so stubborn to stick to the letter of the law on something and forget about the intent of the law. Where our theology becomes set in stone and humanity and life is obscured.
************ABIGAIL HERE - too tired to log out and log back in under my own name ************
T, what you said here: "It's odd isn't it – how sometimes we can be so stubborn to stick to the letter of the law on something and forget about the intent of the law. Where our theology becomes set in stone and humanity and life is obscured."
I think, though I could be mistaken, that this is more or less what Wearword has been trying to say - he just uses different words, words that often have a tainted meaning to many of us, because of our experiences with twi.
I have never seen either of the two books you referenced, though I think I will look for them. Well correction, the Complete Jewish Bible is included in one of the links Cman posted, so I have seen it online and so far I like it. :)
...I think, though I could be mistaken, that this is more or less what Wearword has been trying to say - he just uses different words, words that often have a tainted meaning to many of us, because of our experiences with twi...
Thought I would add - every single law in the OT had a purpose. We may not understand the purpose for many of them, but there was one. It is for that reason that I have so much respect for the ultraorthodox chabads. They don't practice blindly, the practice with an understanding of the purpose. Again, I cannot imagine myself to ever be that disciplined, but there sure is a lot of depth and beauty in what they teach. Interestingly, too, they do not appear to require that one practice as they do, to be welcome in their centers. They do not label they way most of the rest of us do "reform, conservative, orthodox, ect.", instead to them we all just Jewish and even if you aren't jewish, you are God's child, with your own unique purpose here on this earth.
Romans 7:21-8:4 The Complete Jewish Bible - copied from Abigail's post # 94
21 So I find it to be the rule, a kind of perverse "Torah," that although I want to do what is good, evil is right there with me! 22 For in my inner self I completely agree with God's Torah; 23 but in my various parts, I see a different "Torah," one that battles with the Torah in my mind and makes me a prisoner of sin's "Torah," which is operating in my various parts. 24 What a miserable creature I am! Who will rescue me from this body bound for death? 25 Thanks be to God [, he will]! - through Yeshua the Messiah, our Lord! To sum up: with my mind, I am a slave of God's Torah; but with my old nature, I am a slave of sin's "Torah."
1 Therefore, there is no longer any condemnation awaiting those who are in union with the Messiah Yeshua. 2 Why? Because the Torah of the Spirit, which produces this life in union with Messiah Yeshua, has set me free from the "Torah" of sin and death. 3 For what the Torah could not do by itself, because it lacked the power to make the old nature cooperate, God did by sending his own Son as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one [but without sin]. God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, 4 so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants.
Romans 7:21-8:4 NIV
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a]2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d]4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Abigail – I've been fascinated with the Complete Jewish Bible translation of the Romans passage - especially thinking about the 'different "Torah"'. The NIV translates it as "another law" - I found some interesting comments in The New International Commentary on the New Testament: The Epistle to the Romans by Douglas Moo, pages 463, 464 concerning the words "another" [Greek: heteros], and "law" [Greek: nomos]:
"…The greatest exegetical difficulty is Paul's qualification of the nomos in v. 23a as "another": if Paul had intended to refer in v.23a to the same law as in v.22, even if viewed from a different perspective, or with a different function, or even as "renewed and transformed," he would not have called it "another" or "different" law…"
Footnote 72 of this sentence: "Heteros does not always [in distinction from allos] mean "another of a different kind" in NT Greek, but it always means "another," distinguishing two separate entities. The only possible exceptions are in Gal. 1:6 and 2 Cor. 11:4. But even here the "other gospel," etc., while in some sense related to the gospel that Paul preaches, is – and this is Paul's point – not his gospel. While claiming to be the same, it is, in fact, different – disastrously so…
…I believe that "the other law" is not God's law in any form, but an "authority" or "demand" that is like, but opposed to, the Mosaic law. As in 3:27, Paul plays on the word nomos to create a rhetorically effective antithesis: "I, in my inner being, delight in and accept the authority of the Mosaic law; but I see a competing 'authority,' operating in my members." …"
End of excerpts
After likening sin to a virus [in my post # 92] and thinking about the verses Cman posted on weakness in post # 93, and this different "Torah" – I've been thinking about the weakness of the flesh – how it is prone to sin – and so is attracted to something having similar traits - being susceptible to sin's competing authority. Sin [as an infecting virus] using something good [the law] to impersonate God's authority issues its sinful dictates – targeting our weakest area – the flesh.
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Abigail
God doesn't change. Forgiveness was ALWAYS available. The law wasn't weak in that it could not love - PEOPLE were weak in that they DID NOT love. God's love is within the laws, but when people chose to use the laws not for love, but for their own selfish motivations, people couldn't FIND God within the laws.
Edited to add - consider this, Neither Jesus, Peter, Paul or any of the other apostles taught any new thing, really. It was all there from the begining for those who were willing to see.
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DrWearWord
I take your post in all respect and thoughtful consideration.
If forgiveness was available then why was Jesus considered a heretic for granting forgiveness...
It is like forgiveness is available but you need God here physically to grant it?
If the law was strong in love then what was the weakness that Paul speaks of concerning the law?
Forgiveness was only for the elite...
Forgiveness of the OT is like the don't ask don't tell policy of the US govt.
If you are a humble translator and they find out you are gay it is immediate dismissal but if you are a marine on the front line firing mortar shells twenty four seven then it is overlooked...
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DrWearWord
Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit [law] of grace [liberty]? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. 3 But call to remembrance the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions; 33 Partly, whilst ye were made a gazingstock both by reproaches and afflictions; and partly, whilst ye became companions of them that were so used. 34 For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. 35 Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompence of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. 37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry. 38 Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. 39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition [law]; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul [law of liberty].
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Abigail
Remember, Jesus, Paul, all of them were Jews. Most especially Jesus and Paul were well versed in the teachings of Judaism. I haven't completed my research, but what I have done so far would indicate pretty much everything they taught was already and still is taught within Judaism's various branches.
Forgiveness did exist in O.T. times. Jesus was a "heretic" because he confronted the hard-hearted, fanatical, fundamental Jewish leaders who knew the letter of the law but not the spirit of the law (i.e. the heart of the law - the reasons for it, the intent) and thus caused hardship for the people. It is not so different today even in some branches of Christianity, is it?
Same with Paul - the weakness in the law wasn't the law itself but what PEOPLE did to the law - just as today, the "weakness" within Christianity is often not what Jesus and/or the apostles taught, but what PEOPLE do with their teachings.
Same s h i t, different day.
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T-Bone
"This is pure rhetoric…" I had the same thought about your post…
"Are you telling me you don't know what the liberty bell is?" No – YOU'RE not telling me what YOU meant by YOUR usage of the "liberty bell." I was asking you to clarify your statements. I guess that means you don't intend to answer my other questions in post # 75 either. Or was "This is pure rhetoric" your best effort to express yourself intelligently?
You know, we'd all probably make a lot more headway on this thread if you'd make an effort to communicate like normal folks do. In other words - not playing games, speaking in riddles, being arrogant, ignoring direct questions, and spouting off VPW phrases. Unless you think you're accomplishing something this way. Of course, what you think you're accomplishing and what others think you're accomplishing may be miles apart. At some point I actually thought you were trying to say something meaningful – now I just read it for the entertainment value…ok – so I'm easily amused.
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T-Bone
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cman
Hey WearWord.
What does the ' law of liberty ' allow you to do?
To do that which has a godly reason, purpose or direction.
Please specify what you think or believe this enables you to do.
What do you use the law of liberty for?
What is the fruit of that which you believe to be the law of liberty?
These are all basically the same question.
How has it changed you or anyone.
More specifically you, and in your own words please.
I already know the bible.
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Abigail
I wish I had a bible in front of me so I could pull out the rest of the verse and context. In any case, I wanted to share something I saw with that one sentence you quoted.
What if the idea behind this statement isn't as we were taught in PFAL - that the law in and of itself is bad (remember Jesus said through the flesh it was made weak - i.e. because of people)
What if, instead Paul is saying that we will never be justified by the law, because by the law we are aware of sin. So, our justification comes else where, yes. BUT, the law is still good in that it teaches us right from wrong.
Another way, we all screw up - none of us will ever be perfect, and with that knowledge of imperfection it is really easy to condemn ourselves and believe we are not "justified". However, the laws are also still useful in that they teach us something and without that understanding one could walk around thinking it was okay to rape people, thinking it was okay to steal, etc. etc.
Mark you summed it up very well here:
I believe that was always the intent with the law too - but people messed it all up, just as they do even today.
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cman
Abigail,
A more complete but complex text reference.
http://bible.crosswalk.com/index.cgi
And a simpler and quicker interface for quick reference, but still a lot in it.
http://www.biblegateway.com/
Both are somewhat custumizable to your preferences.
Both include some very good reference material. Many versions and texts.
And Not just 'christian' but more.
I think you'll like them for quick reference actually.
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Abigail
WearWord, I am wondering who you studied Kabbalah under and/or if you've been searching it on your own. The reason I ask is there is a lot of stuff, especially on the net and in the New Age section of the bookstores that sell themselves as Kabbalah, but are not. They may be close, they may have some of it - but they miss a lot too.
I have studied some Kabbalah, a lot of it still goes over my head. I have to digest it in very tiny portions. My experience has been that a foundation in Judaism is helpful in understanding it. Also, to study it with the Jews you will get more accurate information. The site I enjoy the most is chabad.org. They are an ultraorthdox group and I am not disciplined enough to practice as they do, but I thoroughly enjoy most of their teachings and have learned much from them. One of the beauties of the teaching of the Chabads is that, despite their strict discpline and practice, they do not follow the "letter of the law" but rather the spirit. In other words, they do what they do out of a depth of understanding and out of love, as opposed to out of legalism.
I have read through a number of your posts and I am somewhat amused by the dialogue that has taken place here. I have a suspicion (though I am as yet not completely certain) that you and many of the others are saying the same things but in very different ways. You still use a lot of the terminology from TWI, and especially for those who were with TWI in the later years under Martindale - those words translate very differently than you may intend them to. In a sense, it seems to me as if you are speaking one language and a number of other people speak an entirely different one - but if there was a translator you would be saying very similar things.
CMan, thanks a bunch for the links!!!!! I am going to thoroughly enjoy those websites! :)
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Abigail
Okay, am going back to Rom 3:19 and ff for context. I may play with some different translations through the links you provided, Cman.
NIV: 19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify
The Complete Jewish Bible: 19 Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God's adverse judgment. 20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteousn on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are. 21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God's way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear - although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well - 22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile,
Okay, now I will break it down a bit, for those who have the patience to read the entire post
The Complete Jewish Bible: 19 Moreover, we know that whatever the Torah says, it says to those living within the framework of the Torah, in order that every mouth may be stopped and the whole world be shown to deserve God's adverse judgment.
and
19Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God.
These two verses esentially say the same thing, IF you understand the teachings of Judaism.
Judaism teaches that ALL people are children of God, both Jews and non-Jews. However, the Jews swore an oath to follow the laws of Torah whereas everyone else is only bound to the Noatic laws. So, what this is saying is that the Torah was given to the Jews (those living within its framework) for the specific purpose of silencing ALL people by showing them they all DESERVE God's adverse judgment. In other words, no one could live up it it perfectly! See, the law was good in that it taught us two things 1) right from wrong and 2) that we are all imperfect. Unfortunately, the religious leaders of Jesus' time, forgot or ignored the fact that they too were imperfect, forgot that in condemning others they were also condemning themselves. Jesus was considered heretical because he threw that in their faces, so to speak.
20 For in his sight no one alive will be considered righteousn on the ground of legalistic observance of Torah commands, because what Torah really does is show people how sinful they are. 21 But now, quite apart from Torah, God's way of making people righteous in his sight has been made clear - although the Torah and the Prophets give their witness to it as well - 22 and it is a righteousness that comes from God, through the faithfulness of Yeshua the Messiah, to all who continue trusting. For it makes no difference whether one is a Jew or a Gentile,
I like the longer translations, because I think they are more clear. Legalist observance of the Torah lacks the depth of understanding and heart. It is done out of compulsion instead of out of love. The result is that instead of focusing on God's love they become focused on their own shortcomings, and eventually they are no longer focused on god at all, but only on themselves or on the sins of others (which is usually a result of trying to make oneself feel better by putting down others).
It goes on to say God's way of making peole righteous has been made clear - that it (righteousness) comes from God as the Torah (law) and prophets have been a witness too (again, the information has been there all along, but people missed it).
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T-Bone
Great posts! Maybe it’s very simply the heart of the law from different angles. The Ten Commandments show a concern for the integrity of relationships – mostly from a negative aspect – “this is what it is NOT.” Jesus said the intent of the law is to foster a genuine love for God and neighbor – showing the positive aspect of the law… Paul said the law is good, holy, righteous and spiritual in Romans 7. God intended the law for good. But in Romans 7 Paul also expressed our faulty response to the law at times – it is sin’s rebelliousness…sin’s seduction…sin’s way of twisting things out of shape – to take something intended for good and fill it with criminal intent. Perhaps the bigger the “no trespassing” sign – the more appealing it becomes sometimes – the grass always looking greener on the other side of the fence. This is how the law looks from sin’s angle!
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Abigail
WearWord,
I finally finished reading through your posts in the political forum - which I think is what prompted this thread. I am more and more convinced that you and I are on a pretty similar page and it is simply an issue of wording that is different.
In anycase, I like what you have to say thus far and I think a large part of the problem is one of communication. I hope you will keep talking and eventually we will come to understand each other's languages better.
Peace, love and liberty! :)
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DrWearWord
The law was weak in that it could not grant people spiritual justification.
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Abigail
would you kindly define spiritual justification? I do not understand what the phrase means. Thanks :)
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T-Bone
When you mentioned the weakness of people I thought of the relation of the law / God's Spirit to sin being similar to virus detection programs. In order to protect your computer one of the things a virus detection program must do is identify viruses. In the medical realm, what little I've read about biological viruses is very interesting. They cannot reproduce themselves but essentially attack normal cells and dictate to them "make more of me" [the virus] – any medical folks out there feel free to chime in and make corrections. What little I know of PCs – I think computer viruses work in a similar fashion – in that they need the normal data/functions on the PC to do their dirty work – IT folks out there feel free to chime in and make corrections.
Likening sin to a virus – I thought Romans 7 and 8 paint a vivid picture of the law / God's Spirit being virus protection programs - temporary solutions to man's dilemma. Sin has always been present since the fall of man – and in my opinion it has infected the very fabricate of our being. Sin can take anything good and twist it into something bad. I guess it's going to take a complete system overhaul to eradicate that particular virus [which is a part of my Christian hope in the Lord's return]. However, God has always provided work-around solutions until that glorious day.
Romans 7:7-25 NIV
7What shall we say, then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! Indeed I would not have known what sin was except through the law. For I would not have known what coveting really was if the law had not said, "Do not covet."[b] 8But sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, produced in me every kind of covetous desire. For apart from law, sin is dead. 9Once I was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died. 10I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought death.
11For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. 12So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good. 13Did that which is good, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment sin might become utterly sinful.
14We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin. 15I do not understand what I do. For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature.[c] For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do—this I keep on doing. 20Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
Romans 8:1-17 NIV
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
5Those who live according to the sinful nature have their minds set on what that nature desires; but those who live in accordance with the Spirit have their minds set on what the Spirit desires. 6The mind of sinful man[e] is death, but the mind controlled by the Spirit is life and peace; 7the sinful mind[f] is hostile to God. It does not submit to God's law, nor can it do so. 8Those controlled by the sinful nature cannot please God.
9You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. 10But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, he who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit, who lives in you.
12Therefore, brothers, we have an obligation—but it is not to the sinful nature, to live according to it. 13For if you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship.[g] And by him we cry, "Abba,[h] Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
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cman
Let's get what is weak straight from what is said, then hypothesize...
KJV: Mt 26:41
41Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.
KJV: Mk 14:38
38Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
KJV: Ac 20:35
35I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.
KJV: Ro 4:19
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sara’s womb:
KJV: Ro 8:3
3For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
KJV: Ro 14:1
Chapter 14
1Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.
KJV: Ro 14:2
2For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.
KJV: Ro 14:21
21It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor any thing whereby thy brother stumbleth, or is offended, or is made weak.
KJV: Ro 15:1
Chapter 15
1We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves.
KJV: 1 Co 1:27
27But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
KJV: 1 Co 4:10
10We are fools for Christ’s sake, but ye are wise in Christ; we are weak, but ye are strong; ye are honourable, but we are despised.
KJV: 1 Co 8:7
7Howbeit there is not in every man that knowledge: for some with conscience of the idol unto this hour eat it as a thing offered unto an idol; and their conscience being weak is defiled.
KJV: 1 Co 8:9
9But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.
KJV: 1 Co 8:10
10For if any man see thee which hast knowledge sit at meat in the idol’s temple, shall not the conscience of him which is weak be emboldened to eat those things which are offered to idols;
KJV: 1 Co 8:11
11And through thy knowledge shall the weak brother perish, for whom Christ died?
KJV: 1 Co 8:12
12But when ye sin so against the brethren, and wound their weak conscience, ye sin against Christ.
KJV: 1 Co 9:22
22To the weak became I as weak, that I might gain the weak: I am made all things to all men, that I might by all means save some.
KJV: 1 Co 11:30
30For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep.
KJV: 2 Co 10:10
10For his letters, say they, are weighty and powerful; but his bodily presence is weak, and his speech contemptible.
KJV: 2 Co 11:21
21I speak as concerning reproach, as though we had been weak. Howbeit whereinsoever any is bold, (I speak foolishly,) I am bold also.
KJV: 2 Co 11:29
29Who is weak, and I am not weak? who is offended, and I burn not?
KJV: 2 Co 12:10
10Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in necessities, in persecutions, in distresses for Christ’s sake: for when I am weak, then am I strong.
KJV: 2 Co 13:3
3Since ye seek a proof of Christ speaking in me, which to you-ward is not weak, but is mighty in you.
KJV: 2 Co 13:4
4For though he was crucified through weakness, yet he liveth by the power of God. For we also are weak in him, but we shall live with him by the power of God toward you.
KJV: 2 Co 13:9
9For we are glad, when we are weak, and ye are strong: and this also we wish, even your perfection.
KJV: Ga 4:9
9But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
KJV: 1 Th 5:14
14Now we exhort you, brethren, warn them that are unruly, comfort the feebleminded, support the weak, be patient toward all men.
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Abigail
T-Bone you might like this - it is from the Complete Jewish Bible. I am going to bold face a few of the things that stand out to me:
Okay, I'm going to try to pull this together as best I can.
First Torah = Law. The laws are good in that they taught us right from wrong. I use the example of infants and toddlers. Infants and young toddlers do not know right from wrong, they only know what they want and need and they will do whatever it takes to get those wants and needs fulfilled. As parents, we use praise and punishment to teach them right from wrong, we make rules (i.e. laws, Torah) as the Torah does as well.
However, even as adults we are imperfect, even the best of us have moments of selfishness, etc. The law could not fix that. The law could teach us a certain action was wrong, but it could not prevent us from desiring to take that action. Likewise, we could take an action with the best of intentions and still come out with a bad result.
Now Kabbalah (which both Paul and Jesus were well versed in) teaches that all of this world is an illusion. Bear with me, because I am going to have serious trouble finding the words to communicat this and even I only understand it on a somewhat periphreal (sp) level.
The idea, however, is that as you work your way through Kabbalah and become expert at practicing it, the illusion begins to fall away. I suspect Jesus and perhaps even Paul had mastered that. In fact, I find it interesting that Paul says he was alive outside the framework of Torah, then inside the framework of Torah he died because through the commandman sin killed him.
Hmmmm - -
In the old testament there were sacrifices to be made for sin - sin offerings of various animals (life). The ultimate offering of sin would be the death of self, figuratively speaking, or in a sense the death of certain aspects of the ego (damn I wish I could remember my psychology terminology better :) )
Paul goes on to say "Now if I am doing what I don't want to do, I am agreeing that the Torah is good. 17 But now it is no longer "the real me" doing it, but the sin housed inside me. 18 For I know that there is nothing good housed inside me - that is, inside my old nature. "
It is something of a schizophrenic statement, and yet it makes sense if you don't take it literally. He is sort of separating out the different aspects of his ego (for lack of a better word). It is quite Freudian in a sense.
Again it is here: "God did this in order to deal with sin, and in so doing he executed the punishment against sin in human nature, 4 so that the just requirement of the Torah might be fulfilled in us who do not run our lives according to what our old nature wants but according to what the Spirit wants. "
We are not to run our lives according to what our old nature (ego) wants but according to what the spirit wants. It is still a choice though yes, every day, every minute a choice. Am I going to go steal that beer or am I going to pay for it? Well, to make the right choice, we have to kill the ego - the part of us that would argue in our brain somewhere that is perfectly okay to steal it and we have to act according to what God tells us. Much of this we know from the laws, yes. Even within Christianity today they say "though shalt not steal". The laws didn't literally die and go away. They still exist, we still have a choice.
And here: "For the mind controlled by the old nature is hostile to God, because it does not submit itself to God's Torah - indeed, it cannot. "
Again, even after the age of Messiah, there is still a choice to be made. We can allow our mind to be run by the ego, or we can practice as kabbalah and destroy the go and submit to God.
Oy, I am not sure how much sense I am making here. I guess again, the point goes right back to - the information was there all along. Jesus and Paul didn't teach anything new. What they did do, however, was bring the information out to the masses (most of whom were NOT schooled in Kabbalah as that was by and large only for the very well versed in the laws such as Rabbis). The simplified the information so that it was somewhat easier to understand - they said it in terms of the people of their time.
I think one of the big differences between today (at least in this country - lol) and biblical times is the freedom for the individual to choose. If you read the OT you will see time and time again where great men of God made choices that were contrary to the law and did not suffer consenquences and were not reproved by God. Abraham lied about Sarah. Moses married a "stranger". Lot's daughers had sex with him.
Then there are those who broke the laws and suffered consequences for it. What is the difference? Why is there a difference? Because the laws are concrete and humanity and life is not. Is it sin to steal medication from a pharmacy to save the life of another human being, if that is THE ONLY way to get that medication and save the life????
Well, I guess I'll let God be the ultimate judge of that. But in OT days, and especially in the time of Jesus, the religious rules ruled with a concrete hammer. Thus sayeth the law, no exception (unless of course it was for one of the rulers). Jesus returned our relationship with God back to a personal and individual one (which is what it was intended to be all along). He put it back on the individual - you walk with God, you decide if you will live by the flesh or live by the spirit. The law cannot always give you a concrete answer on what is right and what is wrong, because there are always going to be exceptions to the rules of law.
Okay, I realize this is a long and circular post. Take from it what you can :)
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Abigail
the phrase "law of liberty" came up in another thread so I started looking at other translations of this phrase.
Almost every translation beyond KJV says "perfect law". Interestingly, it is found in James where people are told to be doers of the law and not hearers only.
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T-Bone
Abigail, that is a great translation - the Complete Jewish Bible – I have it at home. Wish I had time to check out all the avenues of a thread. Oh – that reminds me – not too long ago I bought The Jewish Study Bible, editors Adele Berlin and Marc Zvi Brettler. It features The Jewish Publication Society Tanakh Translation. An excerpt from the liner notes:
"The Jewish Study Bible is a major accomplishment. It provides accessible essays from the full gamut of Jewish scholarship, and a running commentary that draws liberally from both traditional and scientific perspectives." I'd have to say the insight I've enjoyed from your posts was a strong factor in my purchase of the book.
That was an interesting point – and reminded me of something Jesus said:
Matthew 23:23 NASB
"Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you tithe mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the law: justice and mercy and faithfulness; but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others."
It's odd isn't it – how sometimes we can be so stubborn to stick to the letter of the law on something and forget about the intent of the law. Where our theology becomes set in stone and humanity and life is obscured.
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Sushi
************ABIGAIL HERE - too tired to log out and log back in under my own name
************
T, what you said here: "It's odd isn't it – how sometimes we can be so stubborn to stick to the letter of the law on something and forget about the intent of the law. Where our theology becomes set in stone and humanity and life is obscured."
I think, though I could be mistaken, that this is more or less what Wearword has been trying to say - he just uses different words, words that often have a tainted meaning to many of us, because of our experiences with twi.
I have never seen either of the two books you referenced, though I think I will look for them. Well correction, the Complete Jewish Bible is included in one of the links Cman posted, so I have seen it online and so far I like it. :)
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T-Bone
Hopefully things will work out.
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Abigail
Thought I would add - every single law in the OT had a purpose. We may not understand the purpose for many of them, but there was one. It is for that reason that I have so much respect for the ultraorthodox chabads. They don't practice blindly, the practice with an understanding of the purpose. Again, I cannot imagine myself to ever be that disciplined, but there sure is a lot of depth and beauty in what they teach. Interestingly, too, they do not appear to require that one practice as they do, to be welcome in their centers. They do not label they way most of the rest of us do "reform, conservative, orthodox, ect.", instead to them we all just Jewish and even if you aren't jewish, you are God's child, with your own unique purpose here on this earth.
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T-Bone
Romans 7:21-8:4 NIV
21So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22For in my inner being I delight in God's law; 23but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.
1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature,[b] God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering.[c] And so he condemned sin in sinful man,[d] 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.
Abigail – I've been fascinated with the Complete Jewish Bible translation of the Romans passage - especially thinking about the 'different "Torah"'. The NIV translates it as "another law" - I found some interesting comments in The New International Commentary on the New Testament: The Epistle to the Romans by Douglas Moo, pages 463, 464 concerning the words "another" [Greek: heteros], and "law" [Greek: nomos]:
"…The greatest exegetical difficulty is Paul's qualification of the nomos in v. 23a as "another": if Paul had intended to refer in v.23a to the same law as in v.22, even if viewed from a different perspective, or with a different function, or even as "renewed and transformed," he would not have called it "another" or "different" law…"
Footnote 72 of this sentence: "Heteros does not always [in distinction from allos] mean "another of a different kind" in NT Greek, but it always means "another," distinguishing two separate entities. The only possible exceptions are in Gal. 1:6 and 2 Cor. 11:4. But even here the "other gospel," etc., while in some sense related to the gospel that Paul preaches, is – and this is Paul's point – not his gospel. While claiming to be the same, it is, in fact, different – disastrously so…
…I believe that "the other law" is not God's law in any form, but an "authority" or "demand" that is like, but opposed to, the Mosaic law. As in 3:27, Paul plays on the word nomos to create a rhetorically effective antithesis: "I, in my inner being, delight in and accept the authority of the Mosaic law; but I see a competing 'authority,' operating in my members." …"
End of excerpts
After likening sin to a virus [in my post # 92] and thinking about the verses Cman posted on weakness in post # 93, and this different "Torah" – I've been thinking about the weakness of the flesh – how it is prone to sin – and so is attracted to something having similar traits - being susceptible to sin's competing authority. Sin [as an infecting virus] using something good [the law] to impersonate God's authority issues its sinful dictates – targeting our weakest area – the flesh.
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