That's a good thing. Although I'm not Wiccan, I do think that people should be allowed to represent what they believe in on their permanent resting place.
That's a good thing. Although I'm not Wiccan, I do think that people should be allowed to represent what they believe in on their permanent resting place.
I agree, not that I want one anywhere near my marker. Do one, do them all..... I say.
Now to be fair and balanced I wanna know when the Way Tree is going to be approved? And I wanna see as much uproar as there was for the Wiccan symbol.
Ten years is along time, White Dove, especially since other non Christians groups got approval during that time. Probably the lawsuit that was finally filed had something to do with the timing.
I don't think TWI would have any trouble--except dead soldiers weren't 'believing' so why would TWI honor them?
This is absolutely wonderful news! We had a big push for it here in Reno. One of our own was resting under a marker that did not have an inscription identifying his faith. But recently it was added and there was a big ceremony with many denominations present. It really was beautiful.
I have always fervently believed that if these men and women are willing to die to protect our freedoms, including freedom of religion then they should be honored by having freedom of religion. How can one be expected to fight for a freedom that is not extended to them completely?
Ten years is along time, White Dove, especially since other non Christians groups got approval during that time. Probably the lawsuit that was finally filed had something to do with the timing.
Not sure where you got the ten years It looks like Sgt. Patrick Stewart, was killed in combat in Afghanistan in 2005;
Either way like I said Do one ,Do them all. One could just as easily blame the Clinton Administration they did not change it during their tenure either.
I don't think TWI would have any trouble--except dead soldiers weren't 'believing' so why would TWI honor them?
The point was I doubt that the Americans United’s attorneys will lift a finger to see that done it is not on their agenda.
No, it's not on their agenda, but maybe it's on somebody's. Do you know of any fallen TWI service members that this was an issue with? I seem to remember the last time this issue was discussed somebody here mentioned not being able to get a holy spirit dove on a family members grave marker.
Wiccans are entitled to have the pentacle, the symbol of their faith, inscribed on government-issued memorial markers for deceased veterans,
Like I said I think the decision is a fair one. What I do find interesting is that an organization that says
"The display of religious symbols and the spread of religious messages belongs to America’s clergy and their houses of worship."
Courts, city halls and other units of government should refrain from displaying religious symbols because such actions send the message that the state has a favored religion and that people who do not share that faith are second-class citizens.
had a lawsuit against the government to make them display religious symbols. One would have thought they would have asked that no symbols be paid for that would be the separation of church and state that they seem to stand for.
But I guess if it is a Wicca and/or Pagan symbol that makes it ok. So I guess that makes those who don't get a holy spirit dove or a Way Tree are second class citizens because clearly the government favors pentacles on their list but the don't allow doves or trees, but the Americans United don't care to help with that because why? Wrong symbol........
Wiccans and pagans have been trying to get the grave marker symbol for years.
The Way int would have to apply for the Way tree or Holy spirit dove if they are 'owned' by TWI. An organization has to do the application process or it will be denied. One individual can't get a new symbol for their family member, it has to be through an organization/church.
If TWI war dead are denied the use of a TWI symbol on their grave markers, then it would be the same situation. I don't know that it has come up though, do you know something I don't?
It doesn't appear to me that they are against religion and it's symbols, but for equal treatment. Your quote about display of religious symbols did not include this:
Under certain conditions, private groups may have the right to display religious symbols on government property (as long as that right is extended to all)
The right to display a religious symbol on a gov't supplied grave marker was not extended to all. Part of what made this an issue was President Bush's disparagement of Wiccans as "not a real religion".
I did note that the list, although it includes some obscure groups, is far from a complete list of all religions.
And I wonder why the gov't has to be so freakin' tight-@ssed about what goes on the markers. The service member is dead, has given his or her life for their country, let the family put any d*mn thing that they want on it, whether it be a pentacle, a cross, a holy spirit dove or whatever the family wants. Aside from the issue that it's a Wiccan symbol, it's a disgrace that a fallen service member's family has to fight the gov't in this fashion.
I was drinking a couple of beers Friday with my priest. The subject came up and he was, of course, aghast at the prospect. However, I pointed out all of the other non-Christian groups that have approved symbology (See link). He didn't realize all the other groups that were authorized their symbols. After that realization, he was no longer as vociferous in his criticism and the subject changed.
Bottom line is that a VA cemetary is not a religious cemetary. The alternative to not allowing any religion's symbol on a grave marker is to allow none of them at all. I prefer the first option.
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Bramble
About time! Oakspear's link shows that other nonChristian faiths are represented.
Alink to info on what a pentacle means:
http://www.livingstonemusic.net/pentacle.htm
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Mister P-Mosh
That's a good thing. Although I'm not Wiccan, I do think that people should be allowed to represent what they believe in on their permanent resting place.
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WhiteDove
I agree, not that I want one anywhere near my marker. Do one, do them all..... I say.
Now to be fair and balanced I wanna know when the Way Tree is going to be approved? And I wanna see as much uproar as there was for the Wiccan symbol.
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Bramble
Ten years is along time, White Dove, especially since other non Christians groups got approval during that time. Probably the lawsuit that was finally filed had something to do with the timing.
I don't think TWI would have any trouble--except dead soldiers weren't 'believing' so why would TWI honor them?
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Eyesopen
This is absolutely wonderful news! We had a big push for it here in Reno. One of our own was resting under a marker that did not have an inscription identifying his faith. But recently it was added and there was a big ceremony with many denominations present. It really was beautiful.
I have always fervently believed that if these men and women are willing to die to protect our freedoms, including freedom of religion then they should be honored by having freedom of religion. How can one be expected to fight for a freedom that is not extended to them completely?
Just my opinion.
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WhiteDove
Either way like I said Do one ,Do them all. One could just as easily blame the Clinton Administration they did not change it during their tenure either.
The point was I doubt that the Americans United’s attorneys will lift a finger to see that done it is not on their agenda.
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Oakspear
No, it's not on their agenda, but maybe it's on somebody's. Do you know of any fallen TWI service members that this was an issue with? I seem to remember the last time this issue was discussed somebody here mentioned not being able to get a holy spirit dove on a family members grave marker.
I agree, do one, do all.
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WhiteDove
Like I said I think the decision is a fair one. What I do find interesting is that an organization that says
"The display of religious symbols and the spread of religious messages belongs to America’s clergy and their houses of worship."
Courts, city halls and other units of government should refrain from displaying religious symbols because such actions send the message that the state has a favored religion and that people who do not share that faith are second-class citizens.
had a lawsuit against the government to make them display religious symbols. One would have thought they would have asked that no symbols be paid for that would be the separation of church and state that they seem to stand for.
But I guess if it is a Wicca and/or Pagan symbol that makes it ok. So I guess that makes those who don't get a holy spirit dove or a Way Tree are second class citizens because clearly the government favors pentacles on their list but the don't allow doves or trees, but the Americans United don't care to help with that because why? Wrong symbol........
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Bramble
Wiccans and pagans have been trying to get the grave marker symbol for years.
The Way int would have to apply for the Way tree or Holy spirit dove if they are 'owned' by TWI. An organization has to do the application process or it will be denied. One individual can't get a new symbol for their family member, it has to be through an organization/church.
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Oakspear
WD:
If TWI war dead are denied the use of a TWI symbol on their grave markers, then it would be the same situation. I don't know that it has come up though, do you know something I don't?
It doesn't appear to me that they are against religion and it's symbols, but for equal treatment. Your quote about display of religious symbols did not include this:
The right to display a religious symbol on a gov't supplied grave marker was not extended to all. Part of what made this an issue was President Bush's disparagement of Wiccans as "not a real religion".
I did note that the list, although it includes some obscure groups, is far from a complete list of all religions.
And I wonder why the gov't has to be so freakin' tight-@ssed about what goes on the markers. The service member is dead, has given his or her life for their country, let the family put any d*mn thing that they want on it, whether it be a pentacle, a cross, a holy spirit dove or whatever the family wants. Aside from the issue that it's a Wiccan symbol, it's a disgrace that a fallen service member's family has to fight the gov't in this fashion.
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markomalley
I was drinking a couple of beers Friday with my priest. The subject came up and he was, of course, aghast at the prospect. However, I pointed out all of the other non-Christian groups that have approved symbology (See link). He didn't realize all the other groups that were authorized their symbols. After that realization, he was no longer as vociferous in his criticism and the subject changed.
Bottom line is that a VA cemetary is not a religious cemetary. The alternative to not allowing any religion's symbol on a grave marker is to allow none of them at all. I prefer the first option.
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dmiller
Whomever (dying in the service of the country), put country first --
over (whatever beliefs) they may have held, while they lived.
It's a travesty that the country can't honor their beliefs,
after they have given the ultimate sacrifice, in service of the country.
A Pentacle is no different than the Star of David, or a Cross,
or an Open Bible, or a way tree, when it comes to the tombstone.
The faith is the only difference between the soldiers.
The common denominator is that *they gave all*.
For this country (USA) to deny them that small modicum of respect,
(regardless of who they were or what they believed --- )
SUCKS!
There should be NO question --- whatsoever!
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