It must make God sick to be said to be the reason for so many marriages splitting up.
Who was usurping the head? THEY WERE!! They broke down the man's courage. They put things in place to make the wives keep their mouths shut so that they couldn't give their husbands advice. And if that didn't work, they destroyed her reputation, marking her as a Jezebel... if they had managed to castrate the husband by then, they worked on removing the woman... If he wasn't castrated, they accused him of HAVING NO BALLS (what the heck?) and kicked them both out.
Jezebel, hmm. . .
Notice that their ringleader was/is a women? Rosalie Foxabel? Rosabel Fox? I dunno.
We were always in trouble because I knew what size tires went on the car, and John could change a mean diaper if the need arose. The last ROA we went to, some of the Corps wives were coordinating their work schedules in order to leave their children with each other instead of their husbands; I guess because REAL MEN don't change diapers.
We were always in trouble because I knew what size tires went on the car, and John could change a mean diaper if the need arose. The last ROA we went to, some of the Corps wives were coordinating their work schedules in order to leave their children with each other instead of their husbands; I guess because REAL MEN don't change diapers.
well, not like the wife usually wants it done. I usually end up grappling with my son on the floor. Sometimes I do it right. Sometimes my wife just says "Oh, let me do it." :biglaugh:
He was ready to kick my wife off Staff but have me stay.
That's funny, when they kicked my hubby off of staff, they kicked me off, too, and I was not allowed to discuss it with them.
Oh, oopsie, not so surprising, I was the woman. I was also the woman who got my man in TWI in the first place, had more years of experience and service in TWI, but too bad, he messed up, we're both out.
Best thing that ever happened to me. It added to the pile of c*** that was making TWI stink more and more.
JavaJane, yes you hit a very sensitive spot here on the forums. There are several of us way-wives who's stories are almost identical when it comes to the course our marriages ran.
1 - Woman joins twi, excited to be learning and moving God's Word.
2 - Woman falls for Man who seems to have equal enthusiasm.
3 - Woman tries to be the submissive, faithful, supportive wife she is told is Biblical.
4 - Man becomes just what twi has shaped him to be: someone who cannot think for himself and must ask leadership before wiping his arse.
5 - Due to Leadership's interference, Man makes decisions that are increasing bad or ineffectual for the family.
6 - Woman begins taking on more and more responsibility for the family in an effort to avoid real catastrophy in the physical world, losing respect and patience for her hubby in the process.
7 - Man mentions something to Leadership, who then promptly, and without any real investigation into the matter at all, blames Woman for not being submissive enough, and not being obedient enough, and not making her Man feel like a Godly Man. (and maybe, if you were lucky, they threw in a few comments about Man being a big wuss. But their method of "correcting" this was to make him feel like an even bigger wuss by making him report on the family situation once a week.)
8 - Procedures and Practices follow in an effort to either get Woman to SUBMIT and OBEY, or to split the couple up.
As for the idea of the submissive wife being a twi convention, I have to disagree. I live in the south where this attitude is still a very common way of thinking. But, I do think it was VP's own sneering attitude towards women that shaped twi's practice of this concept. The Bible doesn't say a man is supposed to disregard his wife's input, or treat her like a second-class citizen. But that is definitely the example that was set over and over and over again by Doc Vic and the other elders of twi.
... you know what? I didn't realize how much of myself I gave up to please my first husband ... I also didn't realize how much of myself I gave up to be in TWI ... It's a robbery of who you are and what makes you YOU. It was gone - you were stripped of it and had to be this Stepford Way Wife ...
EXACTLY!!!
"If a man knows how to love a woman, he will never have a problem finding a wife".
The moral is, twi doesn't teach people how to love. It's all about following the system.
EXACTLY!!!
Who was usurping the head? THEY WERE!! They broke down the man's courage. They put things in place to make the wives keep their mouths shut so that they couldn't give their husbands advice. And if that didn't work, they destroyed her reputation, marking her as a Jezebel... if they had managed to castrate the husband by then, they worked on removing the woman... If he wasn't castrated, they accused him of HAVING NO BALLS (what the heck?) and kicked them both out.
EXACTLY!!!
My husband, out of fear of the leadership, made a series of bad decisions. Leadership found out, called us to a series of meetings in order to 'get to the bottom of things', and I was told while hubby had made the mistakes, I was EQUALLY at fault just because I was married to him!!! Why hadn't I stopped him? (HAH... like that is a submissive wife's place) Why hadn't I reported him to leadership? (Because a submissive wife is blessed by God for her OBEDIENCE to her head, even if her head is wrong, remember?)
The biggest thing I've realized about twi since leaving is that they always want to have it both ways. They teach one thing and practice another. That way, no matter WHAT the situation, they can spin it just the way they want. They always win and you always lose.
well, not like the wife usually wants it done. I usually end up grappling with my son on the floor. Sometimes I do it right. Sometimes my wife just says "Oh, let me do it." :biglaugh:
John and I have three children and for a while worked opposite shifts, so he has had lots of practice. Even learned how to change the cloth diapers. Well back to business.
In our marriage, John's position as head of the household usually meant that he acted as tie-breaker when there was a tie (he has one vote and I have one vote, and what do you do when there's a tie and both people are adamant about their position?). Sometimes he considers the logic of what I said and ultimately decides my way, sometimes he doesn't. I don't believe that when the Bible talks about a woman as a weaker vessel it means that she's a second class citizen. It seems to me that the only way a woman is 'weaker' than a man is in the physical category (and not always then). The other part of that section (which usually gets overlooked) calls for men to love their wives as their own bodies. I agree that the older TWI got, the more messed up it got in this category.
John and I have three children and for a while worked opposite shifts, so he has had lots of practice. Even learned how to change the cloth diapers. Well back to business.
yeah, that's what we use, the cloth. My wife changes the "folding procedure" every now and then so I have to catch up. I've learned to change our son when he's asleep (less energy)
Ephesians 5:33 Nevertheless each of you must also love his own wife even as himself; and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
This speaks to the individual. Each individual does their part. It's not my job to stand over my wife and decide whether or not she's carrying this out. And vica versa.
In the early 90's LCM went on a rant about men not keeping their wives in submission and it was the wives who were talking about what they saw as wrong with TWI, "Itchy bytchy comments" I think he called them.
After we were kicked out of FWC 20 we went to WA state and we were told I was not completely submissive enough and was not always without exception totally, absolutely, completely, completely absolutely totally COMPLETELY completely likeminded with my husband. Both of us had the same reaction: HUH? We always talked things over and made a mutual decision. The couple who were our TCs were a couple where she was 6th WC and he was spouse WC and she was a very strong minded, self-confident person who pretty much ran things. He knew when to keep his mouth shut and his opinions to himself, which was most of the time.
However, they hammered me and hammered me and hammered me. She told me, "You are responsible before Almighty God to line up your thinking with that of your husband, so that you are always completely likeminded with him!" I found out many years later that I had done just that - he and I both thought she was full of icky icky poo poo.
However, I am now scared to death to make a decision. My husband makes suggestions and I take them as God's Law, then he is shocked and somewhat defensive when I'm unhappy with the results. I honestly feel I place an undue and inappropriate burden on him. But I'm trying to do better. The reason for the minivacation thread on the open forum was to get ideas - he asked me to plan a minivacation and I just can't do it. What if I mess something up? It's something I deal with every day, like an addiction or something.
This surely has struck a chord here. So many have suffered – men and women. Husbands and wives, fiancés and fiancées.
I recently found a book called “Women in Christianity”. It traces different “paradigm shifts” in thinking about women. Starts with a quick look at OT history. Then a lot of focus on how JC dealt with women (they were his friends, faithful where some of the men friends failed/fled) and the respect he had for them. Then a look at Acts. Then a look at medieval views of women and the rise of Mariolatry (worship of Woman as symbol rather than Woman as real human being) – running hand in hand at the time with the eventual requirement for clergy to be celebate. The serious imbalance in all aspects of life between men and women and the subjugation of women began in earnest around this time, giving rise to the idea of wife as home-body, child rearer, etc and the man out there doing business, fighting wars, etc. Then later developments from there, where women have clawed back their independence, right to exist and to – basically enjoy life. Women are still working on getting equal status with men in many areas, but it’s a lot better than it was even a couple of decades ago.
It was most interesting and many ideas around the subjugation of women and their individual rights (economically, physically, everything) really clipped in, in the later Middle Ages.
The TWI attitude is as bad as the worst of the Middle Ages oppression. Perhaps we can think of the cruelty to others “worthy” of oppression – the Inquisition(s) where many were tortured for different religious beliefs.
TWI put male/female relationships through their own peculiar form of mental torture.
Congratulations to anyone whose relationship survived. Mine didn’t. A know-it-all TC many years younger than both me and the fiancé decided he knew more about both of us and our own relationship than we ourselves did. That TC was my Corps bro, and both of us many Corps later than my fiancé. The TC was an arrogant b***** when I first met him, and he got worse the more time he spent in the WC.
But on the positive side, it gives me lots of opportunity to work on forgiveness…
When you said you'd recently found a book, I suddenly remembered...
"Fascinating Womanhood" - anyone have to suffer reading that one? It's how to be the perfect wife, 50's style.
A quote:
“Femininity is a gentle, tender quality found in a woman's appearance, manner, and nature. A feminine woman gives the impression of softness, and delicateness. She has a spirit of sweet submission, and a dependency upon men for their care and protection. Nothing about her appears masculine – no male aggressiveness, competence, efficiency, fearlessness, strength, or the ability to kill her own snakes.”
That wouldn't fly in my household. My husband is terrified of snakes and I love picking them up to show them to our oldest - and they chasing Hubby into the carport with them - it's great summer sport!
Another quote:
(What to say to your husband if he upsets you...)
“Ill never speak to you again” “I won't do anything for you anymore“ ”I'll tell your mother on you” (I swear I'm not making this up), or if he insults you in public “Wait until I get you home alone” or “I'll get even with you”
I can't imagine how my husband would act if I said this to him... and telling my mother-in-law would be fruitless - she doesn't speak ENGLISH!
The successor to that bit of saccachrine fluff was "The Total Woman" by Marabel Morgan. I don't remember much about it, except that a wife should occasionally prepare the children's dinner early and have them fed, bathed, and in bed by 5:00 PM (broad daylight where I live nowadays). She can then prepare her husband's favorite meal, and greet him at the door in some provocative little costume, example was pink fluffy shorty pajamas with white patent leather knee high boots. Dinner was to be served with wine, flowers and candlelight, and well, you know the rest!
I imagine if I had ever, even in my size 5 days, greeted my husband thusly, I would have had to clean the spewed-forth spittle off my glasses before I did anything else - he would've busted out laughing until he fell off the porch and landed in the flower bed!
Total idiocy!
WG (in jeans and a cool shirt, cause it's hotter'n a burnt boot outside)
Oh, I forgot - I can kill my own snakes, spiders, and one time a bat in the dorm at Rome City - with a tennis racquet, and yelling "Say your prayers, Varmint!" with every swat!
I remember when the girls in Cleveland( Yep, I said girls. Some of them were still in high school back then) read this book.
There was something in the book about purring like a kitten. A group of them managed to find a way to purr with a sarcastic undertone. Pretty funny looking back on it. That was at the height of the "burn the bra" movement. There was a book that the young men were supposed to read also but I can't recall the title.
I'm quite sure I never read it.
WG--- As I recall that hubby of yours, he was always a level headed, even tempered guy. ( Most of the time)
You two must have hit on something that works, 'cause if my math is correct, you two ought to be rapidly approaching the big 30th mark, no?
Lots of this stuff that was presented as profound wisdom was simply baggage VP and "da boys" brought with them from their pre-TWI days. Like saps, we hung on every little word as if there was some deep truth in it all. Much of it didn't have anything at all to do with God's Word.
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Bolshevik
Jezebel, hmm. . .
Notice that their ringleader was/is a women? Rosalie Foxabel? Rosabel Fox? I dunno.
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JavaJane
I got a recipe for Jezebal sauce! It's yummy... Made from real Jezebels, you know...
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Bolshevik
Really? Ha! I remember he and his wife were in our area, briefly. Is the story on another thread?
That's God's place. We can only dream.
Although many a HQ coon and possums have taken their place.
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Bolshevik
and maybe some of the bark off their precious trees.
That's probably what's slowing the movement of The Word. Just like if the grass isn't perfect.
Darn it Java, you got me all worked up.
Probably totally derailed your thread.
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JavaJane
that's ok. I gave myself heartburn I got so mad... How's that for irony?
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Jeaniam
We were always in trouble because I knew what size tires went on the car, and John could change a mean diaper if the need arose. The last ROA we went to, some of the Corps wives were coordinating their work schedules in order to leave their children with each other instead of their husbands; I guess because REAL MEN don't change diapers.
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doojable
It must mean you're husband doesn't love you or is out of fellowship.....
*Dooj runs for cover REAL FAST!*
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Bolshevik
well, not like the wife usually wants it done. I usually end up grappling with my son on the floor. Sometimes I do it right. Sometimes my wife just says "Oh, let me do it."
:biglaugh:
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Nottawayfer
Signed,
Ex Starbuck's Junkie
Now back to our regularly scheduled program...
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shazdancer
B, you said
That's funny, when they kicked my hubby off of staff, they kicked me off, too, and I was not allowed to discuss it with them.Oh, oopsie, not so surprising, I was the woman. I was also the woman who got my man in TWI in the first place, had more years of experience and service in TWI, but too bad, he messed up, we're both out.
Best thing that ever happened to me. It added to the pile of c*** that was making TWI stink more and more.
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TheHighWay
JavaJane, yes you hit a very sensitive spot here on the forums. There are several of us way-wives who's stories are almost identical when it comes to the course our marriages ran.
1 - Woman joins twi, excited to be learning and moving God's Word.
2 - Woman falls for Man who seems to have equal enthusiasm.
3 - Woman tries to be the submissive, faithful, supportive wife she is told is Biblical.
4 - Man becomes just what twi has shaped him to be: someone who cannot think for himself and must ask leadership before wiping his arse.
5 - Due to Leadership's interference, Man makes decisions that are increasing bad or ineffectual for the family.
6 - Woman begins taking on more and more responsibility for the family in an effort to avoid real catastrophy in the physical world, losing respect and patience for her hubby in the process.
7 - Man mentions something to Leadership, who then promptly, and without any real investigation into the matter at all, blames Woman for not being submissive enough, and not being obedient enough, and not making her Man feel like a Godly Man. (and maybe, if you were lucky, they threw in a few comments about Man being a big wuss. But their method of "correcting" this was to make him feel like an even bigger wuss by making him report on the family situation once a week.)
8 - Procedures and Practices follow in an effort to either get Woman to SUBMIT and OBEY, or to split the couple up.
As for the idea of the submissive wife being a twi convention, I have to disagree. I live in the south where this attitude is still a very common way of thinking. But, I do think it was VP's own sneering attitude towards women that shaped twi's practice of this concept. The Bible doesn't say a man is supposed to disregard his wife's input, or treat her like a second-class citizen. But that is definitely the example that was set over and over and over again by Doc Vic and the other elders of twi.
EXACTLY!!!
EXACTLY!!!
EXACTLY!!!
My husband, out of fear of the leadership, made a series of bad decisions. Leadership found out, called us to a series of meetings in order to 'get to the bottom of things', and I was told while hubby had made the mistakes, I was EQUALLY at fault just because I was married to him!!! Why hadn't I stopped him? (HAH... like that is a submissive wife's place) Why hadn't I reported him to leadership? (Because a submissive wife is blessed by God for her OBEDIENCE to her head, even if her head is wrong, remember?)
The biggest thing I've realized about twi since leaving is that they always want to have it both ways. They teach one thing and practice another. That way, no matter WHAT the situation, they can spin it just the way they want. They always win and you always lose.
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Jeaniam
In our marriage, John's position as head of the household usually meant that he acted as tie-breaker when there was a tie (he has one vote and I have one vote, and what do you do when there's a tie and both people are adamant about their position?). Sometimes he considers the logic of what I said and ultimately decides my way, sometimes he doesn't. I don't believe that when the Bible talks about a woman as a weaker vessel it means that she's a second class citizen. It seems to me that the only way a woman is 'weaker' than a man is in the physical category (and not always then). The other part of that section (which usually gets overlooked) calls for men to love their wives as their own bodies. I agree that the older TWI got, the more messed up it got in this category.
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Ham
I think some of the "biblical" expectations in marriage set people up for failure.
There is a small problem giving the power of mog to one of the parties..
what if the guy isn't QUALIFIED to make the decision in question? Ah, but he's sure he's right..
from what I've seen in practice, God doesn't just "bless" somebody for going along with it..
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Bolshevik
yeah, that's what we use, the cloth. My wife changes the "folding procedure" every now and then so I have to catch up. I've learned to change our son when he's asleep (less energy)
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Bolshevik
this must be what they're scared of
"Youths oppress my people, women rule over them. O my people, your guides lead you astray; they turn you from the path." Isaiah 3:12
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Bolshevik
Ephesians 5:33 Nevertheless each of you must also love his own wife even as himself; and let the wife see that she respects her husband.
This speaks to the individual. Each individual does their part. It's not my job to stand over my wife and decide whether or not she's carrying this out. And vica versa.
?
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Watered Garden
In the early 90's LCM went on a rant about men not keeping their wives in submission and it was the wives who were talking about what they saw as wrong with TWI, "Itchy bytchy comments" I think he called them.
After we were kicked out of FWC 20 we went to WA state and we were told I was not completely submissive enough and was not always without exception totally, absolutely, completely, completely absolutely totally COMPLETELY completely likeminded with my husband. Both of us had the same reaction: HUH? We always talked things over and made a mutual decision. The couple who were our TCs were a couple where she was 6th WC and he was spouse WC and she was a very strong minded, self-confident person who pretty much ran things. He knew when to keep his mouth shut and his opinions to himself, which was most of the time.
However, they hammered me and hammered me and hammered me. She told me, "You are responsible before Almighty God to line up your thinking with that of your husband, so that you are always completely likeminded with him!" I found out many years later that I had done just that - he and I both thought she was full of icky icky poo poo.
However, I am now scared to death to make a decision. My husband makes suggestions and I take them as God's Law, then he is shocked and somewhat defensive when I'm unhappy with the results. I honestly feel I place an undue and inappropriate burden on him. But I'm trying to do better. The reason for the minivacation thread on the open forum was to get ideas - he asked me to plan a minivacation and I just can't do it. What if I mess something up? It's something I deal with every day, like an addiction or something.
WG
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washingtonweather
Ohh WG-- I lived with that icky yuckyy poopoo 6corpse .
I feel for you-- she is a unmitigated witch!
don't give her any more (post-way) satification of casting her prickly shadow on you.
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Twinky
Those people – may they rot…
This surely has struck a chord here. So many have suffered – men and women. Husbands and wives, fiancés and fiancées.
I recently found a book called “Women in Christianity”. It traces different “paradigm shifts” in thinking about women. Starts with a quick look at OT history. Then a lot of focus on how JC dealt with women (they were his friends, faithful where some of the men friends failed/fled) and the respect he had for them. Then a look at Acts. Then a look at medieval views of women and the rise of Mariolatry (worship of Woman as symbol rather than Woman as real human being) – running hand in hand at the time with the eventual requirement for clergy to be celebate. The serious imbalance in all aspects of life between men and women and the subjugation of women began in earnest around this time, giving rise to the idea of wife as home-body, child rearer, etc and the man out there doing business, fighting wars, etc. Then later developments from there, where women have clawed back their independence, right to exist and to – basically enjoy life. Women are still working on getting equal status with men in many areas, but it’s a lot better than it was even a couple of decades ago.
It was most interesting and many ideas around the subjugation of women and their individual rights (economically, physically, everything) really clipped in, in the later Middle Ages.
The TWI attitude is as bad as the worst of the Middle Ages oppression. Perhaps we can think of the cruelty to others “worthy” of oppression – the Inquisition(s) where many were tortured for different religious beliefs.
TWI put male/female relationships through their own peculiar form of mental torture.
Congratulations to anyone whose relationship survived. Mine didn’t. A know-it-all TC many years younger than both me and the fiancé decided he knew more about both of us and our own relationship than we ourselves did. That TC was my Corps bro, and both of us many Corps later than my fiancé. The TC was an arrogant b***** when I first met him, and he got worse the more time he spent in the WC.
But on the positive side, it gives me lots of opportunity to work on forgiveness…
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ChasUFarley
Twinky...
When you said you'd recently found a book, I suddenly remembered...
"Fascinating Womanhood" - anyone have to suffer reading that one? It's how to be the perfect wife, 50's style.
A quote:
“Femininity is a gentle, tender quality found in a woman's appearance, manner, and nature. A feminine woman gives the impression of softness, and delicateness. She has a spirit of sweet submission, and a dependency upon men for their care and protection. Nothing about her appears masculine – no male aggressiveness, competence, efficiency, fearlessness, strength, or the ability to kill her own snakes.”
That wouldn't fly in my household. My husband is terrified of snakes and I love picking them up to show them to our oldest - and they chasing Hubby into the carport with them - it's great summer sport!
Another quote:
(What to say to your husband if he upsets you...)
“Ill never speak to you again” “I won't do anything for you anymore“ ”I'll tell your mother on you” (I swear I'm not making this up), or if he insults you in public “Wait until I get you home alone” or “I'll get even with you”
I can't imagine how my husband would act if I said this to him... and telling my mother-in-law would be fruitless - she doesn't speak ENGLISH!
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Watered Garden
The successor to that bit of saccachrine fluff was "The Total Woman" by Marabel Morgan. I don't remember much about it, except that a wife should occasionally prepare the children's dinner early and have them fed, bathed, and in bed by 5:00 PM (broad daylight where I live nowadays). She can then prepare her husband's favorite meal, and greet him at the door in some provocative little costume, example was pink fluffy shorty pajamas with white patent leather knee high boots. Dinner was to be served with wine, flowers and candlelight, and well, you know the rest!
I imagine if I had ever, even in my size 5 days, greeted my husband thusly, I would have had to clean the spewed-forth spittle off my glasses before I did anything else - he would've busted out laughing until he fell off the porch and landed in the flower bed!
Total idiocy!
WG (in jeans and a cool shirt, cause it's hotter'n a burnt boot outside)
Oh, I forgot - I can kill my own snakes, spiders, and one time a bat in the dorm at Rome City - with a tennis racquet, and yelling "Say your prayers, Varmint!" with every swat!
WG
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waysider
I remember when the girls in Cleveland( Yep, I said girls. Some of them were still in high school back then) read this book.
There was something in the book about purring like a kitten. A group of them managed to find a way to purr with a sarcastic undertone. Pretty funny looking back on it. That was at the height of the "burn the bra" movement. There was a book that the young men were supposed to read also but I can't recall the title.
I'm quite sure I never read it.
WG--- As I recall that hubby of yours, he was always a level headed, even tempered guy. ( Most of the time)
You two must have hit on something that works, 'cause if my math is correct, you two ought to be rapidly approaching the big 30th mark, no?
Lots of this stuff that was presented as profound wisdom was simply baggage VP and "da boys" brought with them from their pre-TWI days. Like saps, we hung on every little word as if there was some deep truth in it all. Much of it didn't have anything at all to do with God's Word.
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washingtonweather
Man of Steel and Velvet I believe was the book for men.
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waysider
You are correct, Wash.
Written by A. Andelin.
Might be some useful stuff in it. I don't know.
Point is------- What the heebee geebees did this have to do with Biblical Research?
I think it was recommended because it possibly echoed some of the personal opinions of VP and "Da Boys".
Fist of steel in a velvet glove. That was a line I remember being quoted from the book.
Kinda sounds like a good title for an episode of W!ll and Gr@ce.
But I'm not going to wholesale "dis" the book because, as I said, I never actually read it.
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