Setting aside the fact that I don't believe VP can personally communicate anymore outside his recorded words and actions, here are my own thoughts, for what they are worth. They apply to me and do not necessarily reflect what I feel anyone else must do or how anyone else should view VP and forgiveness:
The time for VP to ask my forgiveness was while he was yet breathing.
He failed to do that.
The very best he could do is selfishly hint his regret that he wished he had been the man he knew to be.
All that statement said to me is that he knew better than to do what he did,
but he chose to do it anyway.
Still, admitting that, VP refused to admit what he did, and seek forgiveness from me and my family members while he still could, and when I presented him with the opportunity.
I cannot extend God's forgiveness to the man. Only God can do that and that is up to God, not me.
I cannot extend forgiveness to VP for what he did to other people. That is up to those whom he wronged, and not me.
I can only extend forgiveness, IF I do, to VP for what he did to me. That is MY decision alone, not anyone elses.
The only benefit, if there is any at all, to me extending forgiveness to a dead man for what he did to me, is to me, and no one else.
I can forgive him for what he did to me if I want, but still know God will ultimately hold him accountable, and I have satisfaction of knowing he will have to stand before God and answer to Him for everything he has done.
I can forgive him for what he did to me if I want to, yet not forget the damage he has caused, and refuse to cover the damage he has caused and that his doctrine still causes, and continue to remind others of the dangers of following such false doctrines. I believe I have an obligation to warn others of the dangers that still exist because of what he said, did, and taught others to do.
In the end, we cannot deal with "what if."
We are left to deal with the facts of what he did, and sadly, the facts of the consequences of his actions.
And as far as blood crying to God from the ground:
The past few weeks on jury duty I think I understand what blood crying from the ground actually is, and have graphically examined the evidence closer than I really cared to, with gloved hands.
We should be reminded that the blood which cries from the ground, in Genesis and what I have seen, is from the victim, NOT the dead perpetrator.
do we all not know better when we do each and every sin
Like I said not all will care to hear nor will all undesrstand why I feel the need to write this
but if we face the saying love our enemies what do we think?
Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
but as I have never said we have to do anything
because this is a "what if I said" not me saying to do or not to do
but what kind of person would it take to love a person like VPW after all said and done those years of past?
I do not know at times what is best but I too will not forget while warning others of what some can do
yes he failed because he die in sin not even thinking he done us wrong I might say
but what was in his heart that last hour I do not know and I am not sure I care
I this wrote not to tell us to forgive but to think on how or if we even wan to the Way and old VPW in our past so we can moved on pasted without pain
but moving on does not mean we do not telll our stories but the reason may changed
When I was still in pain I talk of the evil of a man and group out of hate for them but today I talk about it out of love to help the ones just entering the pain I was in so deep and to try to help some to not even enter that place of hell
I have forgiven the man and the group he begin but this is me and no one has to do has I do nor do I want to ask others to forgive but I can only write what I feel
Why some man do many things and all the things I do not know
but I do know is my heart is not to push anyone to do anything because I can only live the life I have been given to live
do we all not know better when we do each and every sin
Not necessarily each and every sin. But I believe VP admitted he knew better.
but if we face the saying love our enemies what do we think?
Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
I do believe Jesus laid down a challenge there. But that is a challenge to each person individually. I can answer that for me, but not for you. I can forgive what he did to me, but I do not believe I have the authority to forgive what he did to you. How each person answers that challenge is up to them, between them, that person, and God, and not for me to judge.
but what kind of person would it take to love a person like VPW after all said and done those years of past?
Forgiving and loving someone who wronged you is a merciful act. And the greater the wrong done, when love and forgiveness is extended, I believe, the greater the mercy extended.
Loving someone who is unloveable is definitely God's job. Is it our job? I think it might be.
Is it possible to love a person when you disagree with and even abhor their acts?
I believe it is.
But I believe there are human limits to our ability to do that.
I know that I can love a family member if I disagree with and even abhor their acts.
But loving them does not negate the fact that I vehemently disagree, abhor, and actively confront what they do.
I present them with the opportunity to acknowledge their wrongs and the opportunity to correct it. What they do with that opportunity is up to them.
How many times do I extend forgiveness to the person?
There is a response from Jesus regarding it. I think you know what it is. Something about "seventy times seven."
But I believe the response is a figure of speech meaning you go the extra mile in giving them the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to change.
NOT that you give them unlimited opportunities to enter and foul your life.
I know I can do that for a family member, and have done it for family members. In doing that, I gave the person/s the ability to overcome their problem and encouraged them to change, and they did. I might even do that for a really close friend.
But can I extend forgiveness on to people who even being given repeated opportunities to acknowlege their deeds refuse to do so? People who have so fouled our relationship that I have parted company with out of self-preservation?
Can I extend forgiveness to people with whom it is impossible at least for the time being to reconcile myself? That, my friend, remains a work in progress.
I do not believe God expects us to continually expose ourselves and our loved ones to harmful influences to our lives.
Can I extend forgiveness to a person who is deceased? I think I answered that in my first post. This man had his opportunity to address the wrongs he committed against me and my family when I extended the opportunity to him. He refused to do so.
but what was in his heart that last hour I do not know and I am not sure I care
What was in his heart at his last hour none of us can ever know and it is pointless to speculate. That is between him and God alone. I would hope he threw himself at the feet of the Almighty and begged for mercy. I will not speculate on how God answered if VP did. That is up to God and I refuse to try to do his job.
But I take heart that VP will eventually answer to God for everything he did.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------do we all not know better when we do each and every sin
we are not talking about children but who can read and yes he knew better
but lets stop for a minute and think I am not telling you to do any thing or that his sins did not hurt many of us and that he had close eyes to the true of what he did
nor am I white washing his deeds I just talking about what he may cry now and yes then he did nothing but take
but if we face the saying love our enemies what do we think?
Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
I do believe Jesus laid down a challenge there. But that is a challenge to each person individually. I can answer that for me, but not for you. I can forgive what he did to me, but I do not believe I have the authority to forgive what he did to you. How each person answers that challenge is up to them, between them, that person, and God, and not for me to judge.
I never said it was more than a individually challenge because yes each person must do only as they see best and that is why I try so all to make my writtens a sharing and not a push
everything I write is not meant to say one must do it or that I even want others to do it but I want others to have things to think about as they make up their own minds
just imput from me not even a challenge but just things to ponder on
I believe only Jesus Christ has the right to lay down challenges
I do not want anybody to judge others because I believe we all judge ourself what is right for us
No one talking about you forgiven what he did to others again each person does as they see best
I just said what if I heard him crying for forgiveness from the grave
Forgiving and loving someone who wronged you is a merciful act. And the greater the wrong done, when love and forgiveness is extended, I believe, the greater the mercy extended.
Loving someone who is unloveable is definitely God's job. Is it our job? I think it might be.
Is it possible to love a person when you disagree with and even abhor their acts?
I believe it is.
But I believe there are human limits to our ability to do that.
I know that I can love a family member if I disagree with and even abhor their acts.
But loving them does not negate the fact that I vehemently disagree, abhor, and actively confront what they do.
I present them with the opportunity to acknowledge their wrongs and the opportunity to correct it. What they do with that opportunity is up to them.
How many times do I extend forgiveness to the person?
There is a response from Jesus regarding it. I think you know what it is. Something about "seventy times seven."
But I believe the response is a figure of speech meaning you go the extra mile in giving them the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to change.
NOT that you give them unlimited opportunities to enter and foul your life.
I know I can do that for a family member, and have done it for family members. In doing that, I gave the person/s the ability to overcome their problem and encouraged them to change, and they did. I might even do that for a really close friend.
But can I extend forgiveness on to people who even being given repeated opportunities to acknowlege their deeds refuse to do so? People who have so fouled our relationship that I have parted company with out of self-preservation?
Can I extend forgiveness to people with whom it is impossible at least for the time being to reconcile myself? That, my friend, remains a work in progress.
I do not believe God expects us to continually expose ourselves and our loved ones to harmful influences to our lives.
Can I extend forgiveness to a person who is deceased? I think I answered that in my first post. This man had his opportunity to address the wrongs he committed against me and my family when I extended the opportunity to him. He refused to do so.
What was in his heart at his last hour none of us can ever know and it is pointless to speculate. That is between him and God alone. I would hope he threw himself at the feet of the Almighty and begged for mercy. I will not speculate on how God answered if VP did. That is up to God and I refuse to try to do his job.
But I take heart that VP will eventually answer to God for everything he did.
I appreciate your questions. You pose them carefully and thoughtfully, and with no intent to offend.
I answered your questions for myself, not assuming any intentions on your part, nor insinuating that either you or any other person who reads this thread should believe the same way I do. It is simply my thoughtful answers to your thoughtful questions.
Keep thinking, keep searching, keep posting.
Peace.
I appreciate the way you approach your topic. This is not an easy one for anyone to answer on this board, and questions of this nature can and have spurred some heartfelt but intense responses from time to time. In response, I have tried to express my views without imposing them on you or anyone else.
Bolshevik - but I will not tell any other person to forgive the devil because it was a hard thing for me to do
Bolshevik - and I am not sure I have forgiven the devil for everything he did but I have forgiven the devil for things that happen to me that I used to point at the devil for
but this is just me alone
Catcup - nice reply
excathedra - I say that is your right and its ok with me
I see where you're coming from, but I do thoroughly and absolutely agree with Catsup on every point she makes! I learned a lot from VPW and others in TWI. I am thankful to God for all my godly experiences, knowledge and eternal life!
Personally, I would find it difficult to forgive him for the partial truths that I and many are left to rework; and the divisions in the body of Christ...doctrinally and every other way are more of a concern to me!
I believe He, VPW knew the catostophic effects his decisions would have on the body of Christ and he still proceeded on! God is Judge! The only judge that will trully judge exactly right on every count...wisely and mercifully, I am sure!
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Catcup
Setting aside the fact that I don't believe VP can personally communicate anymore outside his recorded words and actions, here are my own thoughts, for what they are worth. They apply to me and do not necessarily reflect what I feel anyone else must do or how anyone else should view VP and forgiveness:
The time for VP to ask my forgiveness was while he was yet breathing.
He failed to do that.
The very best he could do is selfishly hint his regret that he wished he had been the man he knew to be.
All that statement said to me is that he knew better than to do what he did,
but he chose to do it anyway.
Still, admitting that, VP refused to admit what he did, and seek forgiveness from me and my family members while he still could, and when I presented him with the opportunity.
I cannot extend God's forgiveness to the man. Only God can do that and that is up to God, not me.
I cannot extend forgiveness to VP for what he did to other people. That is up to those whom he wronged, and not me.
I can only extend forgiveness, IF I do, to VP for what he did to me. That is MY decision alone, not anyone elses.
The only benefit, if there is any at all, to me extending forgiveness to a dead man for what he did to me, is to me, and no one else.
I can forgive him for what he did to me if I want, but still know God will ultimately hold him accountable, and I have satisfaction of knowing he will have to stand before God and answer to Him for everything he has done.
I can forgive him for what he did to me if I want to, yet not forget the damage he has caused, and refuse to cover the damage he has caused and that his doctrine still causes, and continue to remind others of the dangers of following such false doctrines. I believe I have an obligation to warn others of the dangers that still exist because of what he said, did, and taught others to do.
In the end, we cannot deal with "what if."
We are left to deal with the facts of what he did, and sadly, the facts of the consequences of his actions.
And as far as blood crying to God from the ground:
The past few weeks on jury duty I think I understand what blood crying from the ground actually is, and have graphically examined the evidence closer than I really cared to, with gloved hands.
We should be reminded that the blood which cries from the ground, in Genesis and what I have seen, is from the victim, NOT the dead perpetrator.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Catcup
God loves you my dear friend
do we all not know better when we do each and every sin
Like I said not all will care to hear nor will all undesrstand why I feel the need to write this
but if we face the saying love our enemies what do we think?
Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
but as I have never said we have to do anything
because this is a "what if I said" not me saying to do or not to do
but what kind of person would it take to love a person like VPW after all said and done those years of past?
I do not know at times what is best but I too will not forget while warning others of what some can do
yes he failed because he die in sin not even thinking he done us wrong I might say
but what was in his heart that last hour I do not know and I am not sure I care
I this wrote not to tell us to forgive but to think on how or if we even wan to the Way and old VPW in our past so we can moved on pasted without pain
but moving on does not mean we do not telll our stories but the reason may changed
When I was still in pain I talk of the evil of a man and group out of hate for them but today I talk about it out of love to help the ones just entering the pain I was in so deep and to try to help some to not even enter that place of hell
I have forgiven the man and the group he begin but this is me and no one has to do has I do nor do I want to ask others to forgive but I can only write what I feel
Why some man do many things and all the things I do not know
but I do know is my heart is not to push anyone to do anything because I can only live the life I have been given to live
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Catcup
Not necessarily each and every sin. But I believe VP admitted he knew better.
I do believe Jesus laid down a challenge there. But that is a challenge to each person individually. I can answer that for me, but not for you. I can forgive what he did to me, but I do not believe I have the authority to forgive what he did to you. How each person answers that challenge is up to them, between them, that person, and God, and not for me to judge.
Forgiving and loving someone who wronged you is a merciful act. And the greater the wrong done, when love and forgiveness is extended, I believe, the greater the mercy extended.
Loving someone who is unloveable is definitely God's job. Is it our job? I think it might be.
Is it possible to love a person when you disagree with and even abhor their acts?
I believe it is.
But I believe there are human limits to our ability to do that.
I know that I can love a family member if I disagree with and even abhor their acts.
But loving them does not negate the fact that I vehemently disagree, abhor, and actively confront what they do.
I present them with the opportunity to acknowledge their wrongs and the opportunity to correct it. What they do with that opportunity is up to them.
How many times do I extend forgiveness to the person?
There is a response from Jesus regarding it. I think you know what it is. Something about "seventy times seven."
But I believe the response is a figure of speech meaning you go the extra mile in giving them the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to change.
NOT that you give them unlimited opportunities to enter and foul your life.
I know I can do that for a family member, and have done it for family members. In doing that, I gave the person/s the ability to overcome their problem and encouraged them to change, and they did. I might even do that for a really close friend.
But can I extend forgiveness on to people who even being given repeated opportunities to acknowlege their deeds refuse to do so? People who have so fouled our relationship that I have parted company with out of self-preservation?
Can I extend forgiveness to people with whom it is impossible at least for the time being to reconcile myself? That, my friend, remains a work in progress.
I do not believe God expects us to continually expose ourselves and our loved ones to harmful influences to our lives.
Can I extend forgiveness to a person who is deceased? I think I answered that in my first post. This man had his opportunity to address the wrongs he committed against me and my family when I extended the opportunity to him. He refused to do so.
What was in his heart at his last hour none of us can ever know and it is pointless to speculate. That is between him and God alone. I would hope he threw himself at the feet of the Almighty and begged for mercy. I will not speculate on how God answered if VP did. That is up to God and I refuse to try to do his job.
But I take heart that VP will eventually answer to God for everything he did.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Catcup
God loves you my dear friend
ok lets try this slow and easy
I said
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------do we all not know better when we do each and every sin
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
you reply with
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Not necessarily each and every sin. But I believe VP admitted he knew better.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
we are not talking about children but who can read and yes he knew better
but lets stop for a minute and think I am not telling you to do any thing or that his sins did not hurt many of us and that he had close eyes to the true of what he did
nor am I white washing his deeds I just talking about what he may cry now and yes then he did nothing but take
ok lets move on
I said
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but if we face the saying love our enemies what do we think?
Matt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
then you reply with
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I do believe Jesus laid down a challenge there. But that is a challenge to each person individually. I can answer that for me, but not for you. I can forgive what he did to me, but I do not believe I have the authority to forgive what he did to you. How each person answers that challenge is up to them, between them, that person, and God, and not for me to judge.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I never said it was more than a individually challenge because yes each person must do only as they see best and that is why I try so all to make my writtens a sharing and not a push
everything I write is not meant to say one must do it or that I even want others to do it but I want others to have things to think about as they make up their own minds
just imput from me not even a challenge but just things to ponder on
I believe only Jesus Christ has the right to lay down challenges
I do not want anybody to judge others because I believe we all judge ourself what is right for us
No one talking about you forgiven what he did to others again each person does as they see best
I just said what if I heard him crying for forgiveness from the grave
ok lets move on
I said
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but what kind of person would it take to love a person like VPW after all said and done those years of past?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
then you reply with
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Forgiving and loving someone who wronged you is a merciful act. And the greater the wrong done, when love and forgiveness is extended, I believe, the greater the mercy extended.
Loving someone who is unloveable is definitely God's job. Is it our job? I think it might be.
Is it possible to love a person when you disagree with and even abhor their acts?
I believe it is.
But I believe there are human limits to our ability to do that.
I know that I can love a family member if I disagree with and even abhor their acts.
But loving them does not negate the fact that I vehemently disagree, abhor, and actively confront what they do.
I present them with the opportunity to acknowledge their wrongs and the opportunity to correct it. What they do with that opportunity is up to them.
How many times do I extend forgiveness to the person?
There is a response from Jesus regarding it. I think you know what it is. Something about "seventy times seven."
But I believe the response is a figure of speech meaning you go the extra mile in giving them the benefit of the doubt and the opportunity to change.
NOT that you give them unlimited opportunities to enter and foul your life.
I know I can do that for a family member, and have done it for family members. In doing that, I gave the person/s the ability to overcome their problem and encouraged them to change, and they did. I might even do that for a really close friend.
But can I extend forgiveness on to people who even being given repeated opportunities to acknowlege their deeds refuse to do so? People who have so fouled our relationship that I have parted company with out of self-preservation?
Can I extend forgiveness to people with whom it is impossible at least for the time being to reconcile myself? That, my friend, remains a work in progress.
I do not believe God expects us to continually expose ourselves and our loved ones to harmful influences to our lives.
Can I extend forgiveness to a person who is deceased? I think I answered that in my first post. This man had his opportunity to address the wrongs he committed against me and my family when I extended the opportunity to him. He refused to do so.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes you answer the question good let me say I have learn from your answer
yes God wants us to learn who to avoid in life for the best of both and not expose ourselves to more than we can handle
that why it took me time to post this tread because I knew people would take it many ways some good some bad
but if I wanted to share what is happening within my heart I must share as I did
but that does not mean others will like it or want it so I only have the right to share
I think to many people push their views and that makes me happy we can share peacefully
thank you
ok lets move on
I said
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
but what was in his heart that last hour I do not know and I am not sure I care
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
then you reply with
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What was in his heart at his last hour none of us can ever know and it is pointless to speculate. That is between him and God alone. I would hope he threw himself at the feet of the Almighty and begged for mercy. I will not speculate on how God answered if VP did. That is up to God and I refuse to try to do his job.
But I take heart that VP will eventually answer to God for everything he did.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
yes I do not want to speculate either and what God answer is between God and VPW
we will all answer to God some day of all that needs answers
some in judgment and some out of love
how I do not know
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Catcup
I appreciate your questions. You pose them carefully and thoughtfully, and with no intent to offend.
I answered your questions for myself, not assuming any intentions on your part, nor insinuating that either you or any other person who reads this thread should believe the same way I do. It is simply my thoughtful answers to your thoughtful questions.
Keep thinking, keep searching, keep posting.
Peace.
I appreciate the way you approach your topic. This is not an easy one for anyone to answer on this board, and questions of this nature can and have spurred some heartfelt but intense responses from time to time. In response, I have tried to express my views without imposing them on you or anyone else.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Catcup
God loves you my dear friend
yes you "Keep thinking, keep searching, keep posting" my friend too
I believe you words will help others see things so they can make up their own minds
and yes all ways peace
I love the open way you express your views my friend
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Bolshevik
I bet with an eternal amount of time, we could forgive the devil himself.
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Catcup
I don't think so. But then again, that's me. Maybe you include yourself in the "we," but I don't.
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excathedra
what if i said who gives a you-know-what about veepee ?
ha !
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year2027
God first
Beloved Bolshevik and Catcup and excathedra
God loves us all my dear friends
Bolshevik - I have forgiven the devil
Bolshevik - but I will not tell any other person to forgive the devil because it was a hard thing for me to do
Bolshevik - and I am not sure I have forgiven the devil for everything he did but I have forgiven the devil for things that happen to me that I used to point at the devil for
but this is just me alone
Catcup - nice reply
excathedra - I say that is your right and its ok with me
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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RainbowsGirl
My dear Roy,
I see where you're coming from, but I do thoroughly and absolutely agree with Catsup on every point she makes! I learned a lot from VPW and others in TWI. I am thankful to God for all my godly experiences, knowledge and eternal life!
Personally, I would find it difficult to forgive him for the partial truths that I and many are left to rework; and the divisions in the body of Christ...doctrinally and every other way are more of a concern to me!
I believe He, VPW knew the catostophic effects his decisions would have on the body of Christ and he still proceeded on! God is Judge! The only judge that will trully judge exactly right on every count...wisely and mercifully, I am sure!
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year2027
God first
Beloved RainbowsGirl
God loves you my dear friend
I glad you understand and Catsup has good points
yes " I am sure" that God's judgement will be "wisely and mercifully" too
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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