Typical bully behavior John. When you cannot logically counter a point....just throw in your your whine and perpetual drivel about women and double standards and the lack of fairness....
Pretty sorry when non christians behavior is more christian than the proclaimed christian.
All the quoting and backing of scriptures to prove your point means nothing when you are using them to bully and antagonize...scripture doesn`t make bad behavior or lack of understanding correct.
I think I have discovered the perfect way to deal with your posts. I don't read them!!!
There are plenty of posters on this thread who either agree or disagree about definitions of agape. I'm not the only poster who believes all humans, not just born again humans, can experience, recognise and give agape love. Jeaniam isn't the only poster who thinks only the born again have the ability to agape. However, Jeaniam has not singled other posters out --even though they aren't using Bible verses. I came to the conclusion that it wasn't my words that upset her, but who I am that got her all excited.
How does my behavior fit into my definition of agape?
Simple. I don't have to eat others peoples $h!+, sit back, smile, and say "Bless you, honey. You are so right. I'm a worthless crumb and you know how to fix me. Tell me how I can change myself to please you."
I agree with you, Bramble. You don't have to eat anyone's $h!t.
I'm glad you post here, along with others. I just thought it ironic that a discussion on love had seemed to become so angry. You have every right to post your opinion regardless of your religious beliefs - you make people think. And you obviously are able to stand up for yourself without a problem.
Sorry if I seemed condescending - I hate it when I come across like that.
i have to note the contrast here: you say "just by speaking the word people would flock to us" and on the other coin we have johnima telling us he has "someone actively sabbotaging him" because he speaks the same "words"
Can anyone eles see this? hahahahahahahahahlololol omg
both are the truth as people think ! hahaha lololol geez your right only in this forum.
no one flocked to you eh when you sit in judgement? what a shock and THEN because you judged and spoke unloving to another in the name of god you get your butt kicked by the enemy.
how much does that class cost again? uh not so attractive lololol
pond ~ Heehee, yup only on GSC! Like Wordwolf said, we forgot we were dealing with humans, not twibots.
And how weird is it we both get picked on on the same thread by the same people, when we are usually on the opposite sides of the fence?! Only on GSC,
Oakspear ~ I'll be in touch the next time I need to get proclaimed. You take paypal?
Java Jane ~ No worries. I can stick up for myself--finally, at the age of 50, after some hard lessons learned-- but I actually prefer good manners and civility!
Wordwolf ~ Thanks for mentioning that people were witnessing on this thread. Good insight that I missed, explains alot.
but my point is still that without an external source to tell you whether you're right or wrong in any of your assertions, you are doing yourself the same thing that you complain about in TWI. You are setting yourself up as the standard and saying that any doctrine that you don't like must be wrong, but you have nothing to base your belief on.
Jean, what pagans (in general) believe is what they experience or find that works, rather than relying on a book to tell us what is real or true. Will this result in mistakes, errors, "untruth" at times? Sure. But (again in general) pagans base their beliefs not so much on what they want things to be, but what they perceive things to be.
It has been my observation here at GS that bible-believing Christians are not all that different. When asked why they believe that the bible is true, generally some type of experience is cited: answers to prayer, feeling the presence of God, or any number of things. Christians interpret their experience according to the bible, pagans according to other models.
You are basically saying 'Trust me, I'm spiritual', the same thing you objected to in TWI... Part of what you and I disagree on is that to you this is a matter of one PERSON'S opinion versus another PERSON'S opinion. To me this is a question of understanding GOD'S opinion which is far greater than what you or I think.
But there's no way to objectively demonstrate that it is God's opinion. Your opinion is that the bible is God's opinion. Others' opinions are that it is not. How can I demonstrate that you are wrong? How can you demonstarte that I am? Neither can be done...
It's not about the non-Christians saying that their opinion is superior, or more correct, but that it is equally worthy of respect and consideration.
I would accept that...but would add that the bible believers don't either.
Then you would have to find a way to persude me that I should happily get offered.
I agree with the first part.
The second part would lead to one he!! of an interesting discussion. I can be very persuasive. And you thought I didn't have a sense of humor.
You really agree with the first part? I'm saying that bible believers don't have any way to know that what they're saying is true any more than non-believers.
Well, now I know that you have a sense of humor...at least about making a burnt sacrifice out of me! :o
I'm glad you liked that Pond, I did too. Couple other thoughts - I was at the funeral of a friend of ours Dad. My wife's known the family since she was about 5, and has been friends with one daughter all her life. In fact, it's through that daughter and her then-boyfriend that we met, when we were ourselves but wee teen-tykes. I knew her Dad somewhat, lightly, always liked him. He was active and healthy all his life and died with a rich legacy.
Which mostly consisted of his family and friends, and he had many. At the funeral I found out a lot about him I didn't know. One of the most interesting was that he had been at Pearl Harbor, and survived the direct attack. There were a few others that came to the funeral, and one spoke and talked a bit about his friend.
Everyone there had a memory of him, a story or more. Pretty much what he did most of his life was work, raise his family and their home in Alameda, California, and do things for other people. He had a great sense of humor, always ribbing people. Never talked about the war or what happened, or what he'd done. But he was remembered by so many people it was literally amazing. The waiter at the restaurant he went to a lot, the stores he shopped at. If you needed help doing anything, he was the guy who showed up early and left late. One thing his friend from the service said that stuck with me was that when they got out and came back home, they were just thankful to be alive and didn't want to waste a day of what they had left. Her Dad characterized that feeling I think.
When I think of agape, I think of him. He was Catholic, sent his kids to the nearby Catholic school, but apparently never went to church that anyone remembered, at least not with any regularity.
His lifestyle may have been driven by points of faith, but if they were they were private, ones he felt and believed in his heart. He certainly would have been the last person you'd hear any kind of preaching from.
Mostly he seemed to have been driven by his experience at Pearl Harbor and making it through alive. He was committed to using the time he had to live and work and do things for people. And I gotta say, by the sounds of it he probably would have been embarrassed that all these people were crying over his passing.
What struck me that day was what was in the room when people were together, the funeral, later at the home. Granted it was an emotional event but there was a tangible feeling of "good", of someone who was as solidly good a human being as you could sketch out. Not saintly but just....good. Right. Despite the fact he would have surely scoffed at such a statment, it was undeniably the legacy he left behind and it was something that was sticky for want of a better word, it left it's mark on you having been exposed to it in a concentrated dose like that. I wanted to just go out and do something, anything. Open the door for you, give you a ride, give you a hand. And then beat it and go do somethiing else. Obviously it had an effect on me, to remember it so vividly as I do. I can remember it like warm wind, moving through the air around us.
Wind goes where it does, and I see the love of God in that way, moving and finding it's way here and there. I know this proves nothing, which is fine - I'm not looking to do that. But events like this are what stamp "the truth" in my brain over and over. Someone like this man would have never talked about "love", and it almost seemed odd to use that word, but it seemed that's what everyone remembered about him. What he did with his life, anyone could do.
When these years go by and stack up like logs, it's easier to see at the end what they finally made, I guess.
quote: I'm saying that bible believers don't have any way to know that what they're saying is true any more than non-believers.
Oh, they have a way. It's called faith. Same as the unbelievers. Take the evolution question. You need faith to believe in evolution. You weren't there; you didn't see everything unfold; all you see is the modern day scenerio. The bible believer says it got this way by one means; the evolutionist says it got this way by another means. Neither can prove it like you can prove something in a court of law. It's all faith from a human pov.
quote: oh just to let you know I have no idea if your a man or a woman , you use words as if your a b*tch of some sort tho.
I think you have an idea. I posted on another page that I am a man and I do not have ovaries. Remember? But my name is actually John. I've never met a woman whose name was John. I've met one whose name was Johnda and heard of one named Johnnie, but never John.
As for the name of my rock band, I know of bands whose group, album, or song names occasionally came from direct criticism. The Guess Who's first album, Wheatfield Soul, was intended as a put down (so was the word 'Christian' if VP's right). Edgar Winter's back up band, White Trash, was his grandma's opinion of him and his friends. Chuck Berry's song 'Roll over Beethoven' was obviously a response to critics telling him that if Beethoven heard his music, he'd roll over in his grave. Criticism can be a good thing.
So until this comes into better focus, I'll infer that you think my rock band's name is...the 'Bitches of some sort'. Thank you very much.
The problem with God is he is truly beyond our understanding(his ways are so much higher we just do not get it ) so we fill in the unknown with what we can study, thoughts magic spells experiences life.
none of it really helps, but it makes for groups to get together and it helps justify our own fear and desire to be more powerful than another.
But Jesus Christ is the difference now his "legacy" is one any person can grasp , simple guy doing what He thinks is best under some very stressful conditions in life.
the outcome of His life is we get a glimpse of who and what God is to all of mankind.
and he is our brother and says we can do it to.
and I believe we do.
and the key is to love one another because we should know by now how people can be and are , not so complicated really our lifes have more in common than not .
At the end of the day the bottom line is who did we love and how it made the difference for them. for everyone.
some think God needs them, um not really He created you, kind of knows the very fibers you came from in the dirt and has few of no surprises of how we can be.
He doesnt need us to work for HIM to make a new animal or to breed more kids (although he loves when we do that!) He doesnt need us to understand Him when He has said we never really can because He is God and well
we are just not.
So what is the deal then ? He wants us to love HIM and ask Him for help and be a good guy and live a good life. He wants us to be happy.
but we get confused, stupid and fearful, and doubting and complicated. and we make bad choices. and other options appear so very attractive till we get hurt. So he sent Jesus Christ, and He is alive and well and helping us make it to the world in which all these wonderings and doubts will stop.
He wants us to love one another because it is our comfort and His comfort in life. because He first loved us. I can only be thankful by loving another, i cant see feel or help or sell Jesus Christ in any manner, what is reality to me is the people in my life I can see feel help and be loved by and love. I can never prove Jesus to another soul but I can show them what love looks like. to the LORD that is our job.
and it is the LORDS job to make sure all of the parts of the loving we do come together for "good". It helps him make a nice bride a nice city a powerful impact on the world. and God is worshiped then because even tho we are far away from HIM and do not understand His ways His will is done, because Jesus Christ always does the fathers will, and Jesus is in this life with us for better or worse.
Folks who do not believe Jesus is alive or the bible story are indeed in on the action because the action is just plain Life.
Jesus came to sinners, to people good bad indifferent all what we are, He is a teacher, a Rabbi, a friend and so much more to all.
quote: oh just to let you know I have no idea if your a man or a woman , you use words as if your a b*tch of some sort tho.
I think you have an idea. I posted on another page that I am a man and I do not have ovaries. Remember? But my name is actually John. I've never met a woman whose name was John. I've met one whose name was Johnda and heard of one named Johnnie, but never John.
As for the name of my rock band, I know of bands whose group, album, or song names occasionally came from direct criticism. The Guess Who's first album, Wheatfield Soul, was intended as a put down (so was the word 'Christian' if VP's right). Edgar Winter's back up band, White Trash, was his grandma's opinion of him and his friends. Chuck Berry's song 'Roll over Beethoven' was obviously a response to critics telling him that if Beethoven heard his music, he'd roll over in his grave. Criticism can be a good thing.
So until this comes into better focus, I'll infer that you think my rock band's name is...the 'Bitches of some sort'. Thank you very much.
I do not know what kind of music you want to play.
but you could call your band Agape soul , or killer melody , the choice needs to be made by you .
and no im not real anal about who said what in the threads I do not take it home at night as much as you appear to.
There are plenty of posters on this thread who either agree or disagree about definitions of agape. I'm not the only poster who believes all humans, not just born again humans, can experience, recognise and give agape love. Jeaniam isn't the only poster who thinks only the born again have the ability to agape. However, Jeaniam has not singled other posters out --even though they aren't using Bible verses. I came to the conclusion that it wasn't my words that upset her, but who I am that got her all excited.
How does my behavior fit into my definition of agape?
Simple. I don't have to eat others peoples $h!+, sit back, smile, and say "Bless you, honey. You are so right. I'm a worthless crumb and you know how to fix me. Tell me how I can change myself to please you."
Not any more.
You're wrong; I've responded to other posters with the same frequency as you, even some that use (or misuse) Bible verses (templelady, etc.), and if you think I'm upset, or excited, once again, you're wrong; I have yet to break a sweat.
As far as the second part of your statement goes, your language proves my point; your behavior fits into your definition of agape. You have made up a definition of agape that you don't derive from any external source, and this definition of agape justifies your behavior, thus as I said, setting up yourself as the standard. Well, I don't have to eat YOUR (or any one else's) $h!+ either. You're complaining that my behavior doesn't fit into the definition of agape that you made up, but you have nothing except emotion to back that up with. 'I don't like Jean's words or other TWI (or other Christian doctrines) so they must be wrong'. You're not reading my posts with any degree of accuracy; I have never said you were a worthless crumb just as I have never said that born-again Christians were superior to other human beings, nor that the ability to love with agape is some kind of super power the elevates the person to some kind of unique status. In fact in one post, I said exactly the opposite, so maybe you're the one who needs to calm down, stop being upset, and reread my posts for exactly what they SAY, not what you think they mean.
Oops, one more time. Well, if any of you haven't figured it out yet, this is Jean, not John.
I'm not going to do either. I think you are boundary jumping, which I DO NOT respect.
What ever you Iams get out of the Bible, it is sure not social skills.
Since you can't seem to get beyond me not basing everything on your interpretastion of the Bible--which I'm obviously not required to do--you are going on ignore like your spouse.
I lived through TWI of the nineties. Once was enough.
Great posts, Socks!!!!! You have me thinking about a number of things. How real love has no boundaries. Like the Matthew 15:21-28 passage I mentioned earlier of the Canaanite woman – even though she didn't belong to the house of Israel - driven by the love for her daughter boldly approached Jesus for help…I think TWI always had a tendency to dictate the standards and conditions for love: when you are to love…who you should love…how to love, etc. A lot of it is really about a self-serving, manipulative attitude that has been labeled "love."
I thought about a passage in the Old Testament that speaks of love being a powerful, unstoppable force. I don't have any comments to make about the verses – they're sort of like I Corinthians 13 – don't think I could add anything to them - they're up in the stratosphere of descriptive passages.
I'm not going to do either. I think you are boundary jumping, which I DO NOT respect.
What ever you Iams get out of the Bible, it is sure not social skills.
Since you can't seem to get beyond me not basing everything on your interpretastion of the Bible--which I'm obviously not required to do--you are going on ignore like your spouse.
I lived through TWI of the nineties. Once was enough.
Once again, you didn't get it at all. I never said that. I would like it if you didn't attempt to shut me in the box of your definition of agape. You made up your own definition of agape (which can't even be found in any secular source) and now you're angry because my behavior doesn't match up to it. Since you can't seem to get past me not basing everything on your emotional viewpoint--which I'm obviously not required to do--maybe it's better if you do ignore me; at least intil you're ready to at least argue logically, let alone Biblically.
quote: I'm saying that bible believers don't have any way to know that what they're saying is true any more than non-believers.
Oh, they have a way. It's called faith. Same as the unbelievers. Take the evolution question. You need faith to believe in evolution. You weren't there; you didn't see everything unfold; all you see is the modern day scenerio. The bible believer says it got this way by one means; the evolutionist says it got this way by another means. Neither can prove it like you can prove something in a court of law. It's all faith from a human pov.
Okay (this is Jean, not John, right?) - I'm not tring to bait you, just debate you
I didn't say that bible believers don't have any way, but that they didn't have any way to know any more than non-believers. If it's all the same to you, I'd just as soon not derail the derailment into an evolution discussion, but faith (whether by bible believers or not) is not an objective "way to know", but a decision to accept a premise. It sounds like we're saying the same thing, but I still get a whiff of "but what I believe is right" from you...correct me if I misunderstand.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong, that my beliefs are superior to yours, just that yours don't haver any more liklihood of being right than mine, just as mine are not necessarily ny more correct than yours.
Please cite the Bible verses that say the following
agape' cannot be practiced by those not "born again"
I will save you some time, there isn't one.
What you and jeaniam are very well versed at is taking a series of verses that are in some way tangentially [sic] connected to the topic at hand, extropolating with a little of your own opinions, stirring well and then presenting it as a fact which supports your position.
In the absence of clear definite verses that address whether or not agape is possible for the non-Christian, you are basing your assertions that declare that agape' is not possible for non-Christians on YOUR interpretation of other verses.
I really have no desire to get you to change your mind on your interpretation, however, it would be refreshing if you admitted that you are giving us your interpretation as opposed to trying to force down our throats the idea that what you are presenting is what "God said!".
next weekend we're going to my mom's and her husband's 75th birthday party (he turned 75 in march, she in june) and they're getting their wedding vows blessed by a priest in the catholic church
one of our songs that all nine of us kids are going to sing to her, is this.....
(we've changed the words a little, and ps. this is a song she asked to be played at her funeral, but why would we wait? it's from goodbye mr. chips, petula clark and peter o'toole, GREAT movie)......
In the morning of your life you did look to the sunrise
At a moment in your life when the world was new
And the blessing you did ask is that God would grant you
To be brave and strong and true
And to fill the world with love your whole life through
In the noontime of your life you did look to the sunshine
At a moment in your life when the sky was blue
And the blessing you did ask did remain unchanging
To be brave and strong and true
And to fill the world with love your whole life through
In the evening of your life you shall look to the sunset
At a moment in your life when the night is due
And the question you shall ask only WE can answer
Were you brave and strong and true?
Did you fill the world with love your whole life through?
YES you filled the world with love your whole life through
yes you filled OUR world with love your whole life through
YES YOU FILLED OUR WORLD WITH LOVE AND YOU STILL DO
--
the original song is asking God these questions
and she doesn't know we're doing this :)
sudo, got a clip ?
--
pps. she doesn't just fill her kids' worlds with love, this is how she is everywhere with everyone
Cool tune, Exdartha. They'll love it I'm sure. what a great idea, and at 75 years, it'll be Take yer hankies!
Love your neighbor like your love yourself.
Love your neighbor with an unconditional love that expects nothing in return.
Are they the same? Different?
God is called a "Father" in the bible. He's a parent, with children by that view. (Can I have the car tonight Daaaad? Not till you clean up that room!!)
Isn't being a parent one of the most universally accepted examples of "unconditional" love that there is? The mother who loves their child no matter what and for no other reason than they're her child? A father who's proud of his daughter or son, no matter what they pursue in life, but just becuz they're his kids?
If we know how to ask things of our parents and believe they won't give us bad in return when we do, how much more God as a Father? The comparison uses the depth of love of a parent for their children as a way to understand God. Parents don't always know the right thing to do all the time, but even with that they can do good by their children. Jesus taught in Matthew 7
For which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
If unconditional love isn't possible, how can a parent love their child just as much today as at any time, despite what they may or may not do? I would want to be loved that way - for who I am and who I want to be, even when I'm not at my best. Is that really that unusual in life? That impossible to imagine?
Two people love. One "has spirit". One has no "spirit". Is the love still love? If not, what is it? Soup?
quote: Okay (this is Jean, not John, right?) - I'm not tring to bait you, just debate you
No, it was me. And you're right, we ARE saying the same thing. At some point discussions like this become a stalemate. I can't prove that the God I believe in exists but nobody else can prove it DOESN'T exist. I said that to George Aar and he came back with "I can't prove that Spiderman doesn't exist, either".
Please cite the Bible verses that say the following
agape' cannot be practiced by those not "born again"
I will save you some time, there isn't one.
What you and jeaniam are very well versed at is taking a series of verses that are in some way tangentially [sic] connected to the topic at hand, extropolating with a little of your own opinions, stirring well and then presenting it as a fact which supports your position.
In the absence of clear definite verses that address whether or not agape is possible for the non-Christian, you are basing your assertions that declare that agape' is not possible for non-Christians on YOUR interpretation of other verses.
I really have no desire to get you to change your mind on your interpretation, however, it would be refreshing if you admitted that you are giving us your interpretation as opposed to trying to force down our throats the idea that what you are presenting is what "God said!".
That was Jean that said that (I always used to wonder why Abigail and Man of 1000 screen names got switched at times; NOW I know why). My (our) pov is, in a nut shell, that Christ didn't die in vain. There are things accessible to ALL people because of Christ's finished work today that were NOT available BEFORE Pentecost. Not just love issues, but all issues of life.
I can't think of any verse that says agape isn't available to all people either, but as I posted earlier, a born again believer has more spiritual ability than those who are dead in trespasses and sins, otherwise Christ died in vain. 1 John says he who has the son has life; he who has not the son has not life. Pretty clear.
Do you agree that agape is superior to phileo? Do you make any distinction at all?
quote: I do not know what kind of music you want to play.
but you could call your band Agape soul , or killer melody , the choice needs to be made by you .
and no im not real anal about who said what in the threads I do not take it home at night as much as you appear to.
that is to much work.
I play acoustic guitar. The secular songs I can play are all pretty much from the 60s and 70s (Beatles, Grateful Dead, Neil Young, Doors, etc.). I guess that's rock and roll. But tomorrow me and a friend are going to play 3 songs at the Pentecost fellowship: one written by the friend and Oh the price he paid and Last night in Galilee. I don't know what your time line in TWI was, but those last 2 songs date back to late 70s early 80s and were sung by...WOMEN. So maybe "Bitches of some sort" really IS the best name for me. Thank you again for your input.
Hmm. Agape soul. Killer melody. I'm surprised you didn't say agape killer after some of our exchange.
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I think I have discovered the perfect way to deal with your posts. I don't read them!!!
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Bramble
There are plenty of posters on this thread who either agree or disagree about definitions of agape. I'm not the only poster who believes all humans, not just born again humans, can experience, recognise and give agape love. Jeaniam isn't the only poster who thinks only the born again have the ability to agape. However, Jeaniam has not singled other posters out --even though they aren't using Bible verses. I came to the conclusion that it wasn't my words that upset her, but who I am that got her all excited.
How does my behavior fit into my definition of agape?
Simple. I don't have to eat others peoples $h!+, sit back, smile, and say "Bless you, honey. You are so right. I'm a worthless crumb and you know how to fix me. Tell me how I can change myself to please you."
Not any more.
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JavaJane
I agree with you, Bramble. You don't have to eat anyone's $h!t.
I'm glad you post here, along with others. I just thought it ironic that a discussion on love had seemed to become so angry. You have every right to post your opinion regardless of your religious beliefs - you make people think. And you obviously are able to stand up for yourself without a problem.
Sorry if I seemed condescending - I hate it when I come across like that.
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Bramble
pond ~ Heehee, yup only on GSC! Like Wordwolf said, we forgot we were dealing with humans, not twibots.
And how weird is it we both get picked on on the same thread by the same people, when we are usually on the opposite sides of the fence?! Only on GSC,
Oakspear ~ I'll be in touch the next time I need to get proclaimed. You take paypal?
Java Jane ~ No worries. I can stick up for myself--finally, at the age of 50, after some hard lessons learned-- but I actually prefer good manners and civility!
Wordwolf ~ Thanks for mentioning that people were witnessing on this thread. Good insight that I missed, explains alot.
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Oakspear
It has been my observation here at GS that bible-believing Christians are not all that different. When asked why they believe that the bible is true, generally some type of experience is cited: answers to prayer, feeling the presence of God, or any number of things. Christians interpret their experience according to the bible, pagans according to other models.
But there's no way to objectively demonstrate that it is God's opinion. Your opinion is that the bible is God's opinion. Others' opinions are that it is not. How can I demonstrate that you are wrong? How can you demonstarte that I am? Neither can be done...It's not about the non-Christians saying that their opinion is superior, or more correct, but that it is equally worthy of respect and consideration.
You really agree with the first part? I'm saying that bible believers don't have any way to know that what they're saying is true any more than non-believers.Well, now I know that you have a sense of humor...at least about making a burnt sacrifice out of me! :o
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socks
I'm glad you liked that Pond, I did too. Couple other thoughts - I was at the funeral of a friend of ours Dad. My wife's known the family since she was about 5, and has been friends with one daughter all her life. In fact, it's through that daughter and her then-boyfriend that we met, when we were ourselves but wee teen-tykes. I knew her Dad somewhat, lightly, always liked him. He was active and healthy all his life and died with a rich legacy.
Which mostly consisted of his family and friends, and he had many. At the funeral I found out a lot about him I didn't know. One of the most interesting was that he had been at Pearl Harbor, and survived the direct attack. There were a few others that came to the funeral, and one spoke and talked a bit about his friend.
Everyone there had a memory of him, a story or more. Pretty much what he did most of his life was work, raise his family and their home in Alameda, California, and do things for other people. He had a great sense of humor, always ribbing people. Never talked about the war or what happened, or what he'd done. But he was remembered by so many people it was literally amazing. The waiter at the restaurant he went to a lot, the stores he shopped at. If you needed help doing anything, he was the guy who showed up early and left late. One thing his friend from the service said that stuck with me was that when they got out and came back home, they were just thankful to be alive and didn't want to waste a day of what they had left. Her Dad characterized that feeling I think.
When I think of agape, I think of him. He was Catholic, sent his kids to the nearby Catholic school, but apparently never went to church that anyone remembered, at least not with any regularity.
His lifestyle may have been driven by points of faith, but if they were they were private, ones he felt and believed in his heart. He certainly would have been the last person you'd hear any kind of preaching from.
Mostly he seemed to have been driven by his experience at Pearl Harbor and making it through alive. He was committed to using the time he had to live and work and do things for people. And I gotta say, by the sounds of it he probably would have been embarrassed that all these people were crying over his passing.
What struck me that day was what was in the room when people were together, the funeral, later at the home. Granted it was an emotional event but there was a tangible feeling of "good", of someone who was as solidly good a human being as you could sketch out. Not saintly but just....good. Right. Despite the fact he would have surely scoffed at such a statment, it was undeniably the legacy he left behind and it was something that was sticky for want of a better word, it left it's mark on you having been exposed to it in a concentrated dose like that. I wanted to just go out and do something, anything. Open the door for you, give you a ride, give you a hand. And then beat it and go do somethiing else. Obviously it had an effect on me, to remember it so vividly as I do. I can remember it like warm wind, moving through the air around us.
Wind goes where it does, and I see the love of God in that way, moving and finding it's way here and there. I know this proves nothing, which is fine - I'm not looking to do that. But events like this are what stamp "the truth" in my brain over and over. Someone like this man would have never talked about "love", and it almost seemed odd to use that word, but it seemed that's what everyone remembered about him. What he did with his life, anyone could do.
When these years go by and stack up like logs, it's easier to see at the end what they finally made, I guess.
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johniam
quote: I'm saying that bible believers don't have any way to know that what they're saying is true any more than non-believers.
Oh, they have a way. It's called faith. Same as the unbelievers. Take the evolution question. You need faith to believe in evolution. You weren't there; you didn't see everything unfold; all you see is the modern day scenerio. The bible believer says it got this way by one means; the evolutionist says it got this way by another means. Neither can prove it like you can prove something in a court of law. It's all faith from a human pov.
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johniam
quote: oh just to let you know I have no idea if your a man or a woman , you use words as if your a b*tch of some sort tho.
I think you have an idea. I posted on another page that I am a man and I do not have ovaries. Remember? But my name is actually John. I've never met a woman whose name was John. I've met one whose name was Johnda and heard of one named Johnnie, but never John.
As for the name of my rock band, I know of bands whose group, album, or song names occasionally came from direct criticism. The Guess Who's first album, Wheatfield Soul, was intended as a put down (so was the word 'Christian' if VP's right). Edgar Winter's back up band, White Trash, was his grandma's opinion of him and his friends. Chuck Berry's song 'Roll over Beethoven' was obviously a response to critics telling him that if Beethoven heard his music, he'd roll over in his grave. Criticism can be a good thing.
So until this comes into better focus, I'll infer that you think my rock band's name is...the 'Bitches of some sort'. Thank you very much.
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pond
The problem with God is he is truly beyond our understanding(his ways are so much higher we just do not get it ) so we fill in the unknown with what we can study, thoughts magic spells experiences life.
none of it really helps, but it makes for groups to get together and it helps justify our own fear and desire to be more powerful than another.
But Jesus Christ is the difference now his "legacy" is one any person can grasp , simple guy doing what He thinks is best under some very stressful conditions in life.
the outcome of His life is we get a glimpse of who and what God is to all of mankind.
and he is our brother and says we can do it to.
and I believe we do.
and the key is to love one another because we should know by now how people can be and are , not so complicated really our lifes have more in common than not .
At the end of the day the bottom line is who did we love and how it made the difference for them. for everyone.
some think God needs them, um not really He created you, kind of knows the very fibers you came from in the dirt and has few of no surprises of how we can be.
He doesnt need us to work for HIM to make a new animal or to breed more kids (although he loves when we do that!) He doesnt need us to understand Him when He has said we never really can because He is God and well
we are just not.
So what is the deal then ? He wants us to love HIM and ask Him for help and be a good guy and live a good life. He wants us to be happy.
but we get confused, stupid and fearful, and doubting and complicated. and we make bad choices. and other options appear so very attractive till we get hurt. So he sent Jesus Christ, and He is alive and well and helping us make it to the world in which all these wonderings and doubts will stop.
He wants us to love one another because it is our comfort and His comfort in life. because He first loved us. I can only be thankful by loving another, i cant see feel or help or sell Jesus Christ in any manner, what is reality to me is the people in my life I can see feel help and be loved by and love. I can never prove Jesus to another soul but I can show them what love looks like. to the LORD that is our job.
and it is the LORDS job to make sure all of the parts of the loving we do come together for "good". It helps him make a nice bride a nice city a powerful impact on the world. and God is worshiped then because even tho we are far away from HIM and do not understand His ways His will is done, because Jesus Christ always does the fathers will, and Jesus is in this life with us for better or worse.
Folks who do not believe Jesus is alive or the bible story are indeed in on the action because the action is just plain Life.
Jesus came to sinners, to people good bad indifferent all what we are, He is a teacher, a Rabbi, a friend and so much more to all.
We are here, So is He.
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pond
I do not know what kind of music you want to play.
but you could call your band Agape soul , or killer melody , the choice needs to be made by you .
and no im not real anal about who said what in the threads I do not take it home at night as much as you appear to.
that is to much work.
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johniam
You're wrong; I've responded to other posters with the same frequency as you, even some that use (or misuse) Bible verses (templelady, etc.), and if you think I'm upset, or excited, once again, you're wrong; I have yet to break a sweat.
As far as the second part of your statement goes, your language proves my point; your behavior fits into your definition of agape. You have made up a definition of agape that you don't derive from any external source, and this definition of agape justifies your behavior, thus as I said, setting up yourself as the standard. Well, I don't have to eat YOUR (or any one else's) $h!+ either. You're complaining that my behavior doesn't fit into the definition of agape that you made up, but you have nothing except emotion to back that up with. 'I don't like Jean's words or other TWI (or other Christian doctrines) so they must be wrong'. You're not reading my posts with any degree of accuracy; I have never said you were a worthless crumb just as I have never said that born-again Christians were superior to other human beings, nor that the ability to love with agape is some kind of super power the elevates the person to some kind of unique status. In fact in one post, I said exactly the opposite, so maybe you're the one who needs to calm down, stop being upset, and reread my posts for exactly what they SAY, not what you think they mean.
Oops, one more time. Well, if any of you haven't figured it out yet, this is Jean, not John.
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Bramble
I get it Jean. You want me to:
A--think like you
or
B-- shut up
I'm not going to do either. I think you are boundary jumping, which I DO NOT respect.
What ever you Iams get out of the Bible, it is sure not social skills.
Since you can't seem to get beyond me not basing everything on your interpretastion of the Bible--which I'm obviously not required to do--you are going on ignore like your spouse.
I lived through TWI of the nineties. Once was enough.
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T-Bone
Great posts, Socks!!!!! You have me thinking about a number of things. How real love has no boundaries. Like the Matthew 15:21-28 passage I mentioned earlier of the Canaanite woman – even though she didn't belong to the house of Israel - driven by the love for her daughter boldly approached Jesus for help…I think TWI always had a tendency to dictate the standards and conditions for love: when you are to love…who you should love…how to love, etc. A lot of it is really about a self-serving, manipulative attitude that has been labeled "love."
I thought about a passage in the Old Testament that speaks of love being a powerful, unstoppable force. I don't have any comments to make about the verses – they're sort of like I Corinthians 13 – don't think I could add anything to them - they're up in the stratosphere of descriptive passages.
Song of Solomon 8:6, 7 NIV
6 Place me like a seal over your heart,
like a seal on your arm;
for love is as strong as death,
its jealousy [a] unyielding as the grave. [b]
It burns like blazing fire,
like a mighty flame. [c]
7 Many waters cannot quench love;
rivers cannot wash it away.
If one were to give
all the wealth of his house for love,
it [d] would be utterly scorned.
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Jeaniam
Once again, you didn't get it at all. I never said that. I would like it if you didn't attempt to shut me in the box of your definition of agape. You made up your own definition of agape (which can't even be found in any secular source) and now you're angry because my behavior doesn't match up to it. Since you can't seem to get past me not basing everything on your emotional viewpoint--which I'm obviously not required to do--maybe it's better if you do ignore me; at least intil you're ready to at least argue logically, let alone Biblically.
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Ham
I dunno. If holy spirit power, received EXCLUSIVELY by christians, gives one the ability to love like the Creator loves..
where's the beef?
When is the last time you saw somebody from der vey, which, with "the heart of the word", spirit of God, manifestations, etc..
when was the last time you saw them get out in the community and do ANYTHING, for anyone, except for themselves?
Maybe SOME have, but none that I personally have seen. And I was the same.
They have "renewed mind" reasons, to not offer anybody anything, unless in their minds, the recipient DESERVES it.
Just give em da verd.. that'll fix everything.. now they don't even so much as offer that.. on an open basis.
Psychologists have enough sense to know that ideology doesn't mean a dang thing, if you don't know where your next meal is coming from.
"They are poor because they don't believe da verd".
"ok, you're right. I'll believe da verd. now how about some food.."
"sorry, we don't support "rice christians".."
Always a way out. Always an excuse, to do nothing. But it is supposed to be the greatest thing this side of the gathering together..
Agape, as twi practices it.. and some who have come out of that outfit have, not all though- I still vote arrogance.
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Oakspear
I didn't say that bible believers don't have any way, but that they didn't have any way to know any more than non-believers. If it's all the same to you, I'd just as soon not derail the derailment into an evolution discussion, but faith (whether by bible believers or not) is not an objective "way to know", but a decision to accept a premise. It sounds like we're saying the same thing, but I still get a whiff of "but what I believe is right" from you...correct me if I misunderstand.
Just to be clear, I'm not saying that I'm right and you're wrong, that my beliefs are superior to yours, just that yours don't haver any more liklihood of being right than mine, just as mine are not necessarily ny more correct than yours.
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Ham
It's kinda like, if what they have doesn't set them sholders above 20,000 civic organizations, and kazillions of religions..
maybe they don't have it.
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templelady
OKay johniam,
let's talk about misusing Bible verses
Please cite the Bible verses that say the following
agape' cannot be practiced by those not "born again"
I will save you some time, there isn't one.
What you and jeaniam are very well versed at is taking a series of verses that are in some way tangentially [sic] connected to the topic at hand, extropolating with a little of your own opinions, stirring well and then presenting it as a fact which supports your position.
In the absence of clear definite verses that address whether or not agape is possible for the non-Christian, you are basing your assertions that declare that agape' is not possible for non-Christians on YOUR interpretation of other verses.
I really have no desire to get you to change your mind on your interpretation, however, it would be refreshing if you admitted that you are giving us your interpretation as opposed to trying to force down our throats the idea that what you are presenting is what "God said!".
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Ham
I still think the significant point of debate is along practical lines..
if the "product" really is better.. what better is it doing in the world? Or even among the "household"?
They don't even love those within the ranks. It's been proven, when some get sick, or old..
"it's because of YOUR SIN brotha.."
They treat family worse than the "the infidel".
"WE have a greater spirit.."
That's nice. Let's see greater love..
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excathedra
next weekend we're going to my mom's and her husband's 75th birthday party (he turned 75 in march, she in june) and they're getting their wedding vows blessed by a priest in the catholic church
one of our songs that all nine of us kids are going to sing to her, is this.....
(we've changed the words a little, and ps. this is a song she asked to be played at her funeral, but why would we wait? it's from goodbye mr. chips, petula clark and peter o'toole, GREAT movie)......
--
the original song is asking God these questions
and she doesn't know we're doing this :)
sudo, got a clip ?
--
pps. she doesn't just fill her kids' worlds with love, this is how she is everywhere with everyone
thanks
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socks
Cool tune, Exdartha. They'll love it I'm sure. what a great idea, and at 75 years, it'll be Take yer hankies!
Love your neighbor like your love yourself.
Love your neighbor with an unconditional love that expects nothing in return.
Are they the same? Different?
God is called a "Father" in the bible. He's a parent, with children by that view. (Can I have the car tonight Daaaad? Not till you clean up that room!!)
Isn't being a parent one of the most universally accepted examples of "unconditional" love that there is? The mother who loves their child no matter what and for no other reason than they're her child? A father who's proud of his daughter or son, no matter what they pursue in life, but just becuz they're his kids?
If we know how to ask things of our parents and believe they won't give us bad in return when we do, how much more God as a Father? The comparison uses the depth of love of a parent for their children as a way to understand God. Parents don't always know the right thing to do all the time, but even with that they can do good by their children. Jesus taught in Matthew 7
For which one of you, if his son asks him for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a serpent? If you then, who are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask him! So whatever you wish that others would do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.
If unconditional love isn't possible, how can a parent love their child just as much today as at any time, despite what they may or may not do? I would want to be loved that way - for who I am and who I want to be, even when I'm not at my best. Is that really that unusual in life? That impossible to imagine?
Two people love. One "has spirit". One has no "spirit". Is the love still love? If not, what is it? Soup?
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johniam
quote: Okay (this is Jean, not John, right?) - I'm not tring to bait you, just debate you
No, it was me. And you're right, we ARE saying the same thing. At some point discussions like this become a stalemate. I can't prove that the God I believe in exists but nobody else can prove it DOESN'T exist. I said that to George Aar and he came back with "I can't prove that Spiderman doesn't exist, either".
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johniam
quote: OKay johniam,
let's talk about misusing Bible verses
Please cite the Bible verses that say the following
agape' cannot be practiced by those not "born again"
I will save you some time, there isn't one.
What you and jeaniam are very well versed at is taking a series of verses that are in some way tangentially [sic] connected to the topic at hand, extropolating with a little of your own opinions, stirring well and then presenting it as a fact which supports your position.
In the absence of clear definite verses that address whether or not agape is possible for the non-Christian, you are basing your assertions that declare that agape' is not possible for non-Christians on YOUR interpretation of other verses.
I really have no desire to get you to change your mind on your interpretation, however, it would be refreshing if you admitted that you are giving us your interpretation as opposed to trying to force down our throats the idea that what you are presenting is what "God said!".
That was Jean that said that (I always used to wonder why Abigail and Man of 1000 screen names got switched at times; NOW I know why). My (our) pov is, in a nut shell, that Christ didn't die in vain. There are things accessible to ALL people because of Christ's finished work today that were NOT available BEFORE Pentecost. Not just love issues, but all issues of life.
I can't think of any verse that says agape isn't available to all people either, but as I posted earlier, a born again believer has more spiritual ability than those who are dead in trespasses and sins, otherwise Christ died in vain. 1 John says he who has the son has life; he who has not the son has not life. Pretty clear.
Do you agree that agape is superior to phileo? Do you make any distinction at all?
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johniam
quote: I do not know what kind of music you want to play.
but you could call your band Agape soul , or killer melody , the choice needs to be made by you .
and no im not real anal about who said what in the threads I do not take it home at night as much as you appear to.
that is to much work.
I play acoustic guitar. The secular songs I can play are all pretty much from the 60s and 70s (Beatles, Grateful Dead, Neil Young, Doors, etc.). I guess that's rock and roll. But tomorrow me and a friend are going to play 3 songs at the Pentecost fellowship: one written by the friend and Oh the price he paid and Last night in Galilee. I don't know what your time line in TWI was, but those last 2 songs date back to late 70s early 80s and were sung by...WOMEN. So maybe "Bitches of some sort" really IS the best name for me. Thank you again for your input.
Hmm. Agape soul. Killer melody. I'm surprised you didn't say agape killer after some of our exchange.
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