You say "non Christians have no spiritual adversary trying to trip them up"
ya know take a look at. Rom 2:9 there will be tribulatin and distress for every human being who does evil.
Using the bible is just dangerous unless your absolutly positive you know of what you think and it is impossible to know God through that source only because "the world can not contain the books that would have to be written about even what happened in the time of Jesus on earth"! the bible says so in the book of Rev.
do not play a victim for God to me . Evil is evil and LOVE is LOVE. period. end of discussion to put all these conditions and agenda's and complications on that TRUTH is called religous spin and that has caused more pain damage and death throughout history than all the what you call "unbelievers" put together.
Christians need God. Those who not seek a God do not need HIM. ( the story isnt all done as the bible states) and that is where we are at as a people who follow the manner of Jesus christ.
God does not love christians more, how very evil of you to imply such a Statement.
His will is all be saved from death. but not all will chose that. the creations of God ALL of the creations of God are "good", how in hell some of you take this arrogant attitude and that is EXACTLY what it is and begin to draw line of who is who in God thinking who is LOVE is just freaking rdiciulas.
it is about YOUR ego. it is about being better having something "they" do not. we do not have something unbelievers do not have , they can have it , God loves them, sorry if that disturbs your self righteousness.
At the return Jesus will be KING to ALL but not every person will even then accept HIM as the SAVIOUR. Of course having Jesus as KING may influence some and the christians and the jews will adore HIM so some will convert and accept His position in Gods plan. not all ! some will be born and live and not chose the bible story and will live with us in paradise. in a world withut the issue of sin, does that sound like God doesnt like the unbeliever to YOU?
Jesus again will ask or keep on aksing do you believe I defeated Death and God raised me to life ? and those who say uh NO ! Can play with Satan when he rolls out of the chain and we will all know then who will win! (hint I think it is Jesus Christ and us)
God loves people . hello it is up to us to decide our life or death. not until the throne is given back to God and death is destroyed will eternal life begin and seeing as DEATH is destroyed we do not have the problem of it. Gods plan is done!!
untill then the unbeliever and those not so much unbelievers will be together living with both Jesus Christ and God and I happen to believe their will is one of love and life.
Awhile back, you wrote a post in response to mine that I never responded to. You said something about didn’t I care how others treated me, and the rest of it, I frankly didn’t understand at the time. After reading your post on the accountability thread, I think I understand much better.
For me personally, no I really don’t care in the sense I try to act ethically as much as possible and I really don’t believe 2 wrongs make a right. Do I like it that others sometimes treat me badly? Not at all. When I find myself around someone like this, I first try to communicate that I have boundaries if there is going to continue to be interaction. When my boundaries are not respected, I disassociate myself from them. Lifes’ circumstances don’t always make that easy or possible. To me, agape as I see it defined in the Bible has to do with ethics. Others clearly see it differently. Would I love someone in the sense of emotion who regularly treats me badly? No, I am not a masochist.
One of many troubles with twi was there was no possibility of boundaries and their very theology prevented it. You could not say “no” regardless of how hurtful a circumstance or the actions of others were. For a lot of us, it didn’t cross our minds. It was living in a cactus patch and thinking that greater obedience was the solution. Obedience and service that requires personal harm is slavery and worse. If giving means I do all the giving while someone else does all the taking at my expense, then that is ethically wrong.
The thing about boundaries is it is a way of defining where you stop and I begin. It is a form of self love. It is a healthy thing. It is your territory of yourself. It is OK to take care of it. We can take care of it ethically. It shouldn’t have to be either or, like in a war where someone must always lose and be hurt. When win/win can’t be achieved, then the simplest thing is to exit if possible. I believe the ethics of others are their responsibility and I avoid passing judgment or deciding what their ethics should be. That is controlling. In that sense I usually don’t care how others act, I simply require my boundaries to be respected. I don’t believe agape means we can’t have boundaries.
One of the key problems facing this discussion is that those who are "born again" are invariably self -proclaimed--they say they are and with that they assume the mantle of arbitrators of the public good as well as the "correct" translators [sic] of scripture.
This renders any meaningful discussion difficult at best since any disagreement with their stance automatically means you are A) wrong and B) not "born Again"--
Since I have been wrong before the possibility that I am wrong again is not without merit, even though I don't think I am wrong in this case.
As to being, "born again", definitionally anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior has the new birth. The "born again" nomenclature is merely a methodology devised by some to elevate themselves to a self perceived higher ground.
So in an effort to get back to track it seems to me, as a Christian, that scripture is very clear.
Heavenly Father created all things through Jesus Christ thus all mankind are His children for without Him there would be no life.
Heavenly Father and His son Jesus Christ have a love that is all encompassing without regard to whether God's creations are worthy, merit or are in anyway deserving of that love.
It is the desire of Heavenly Father that all HIs children exhibit that same agape' love toward each other.
Jesus Christ exemplified that love while on this earth and exhorted and gave us directions in order that we would be able to do the same after His death and ressurection.
Therefore, since all that Heavenly Father offers to his children (read All mankind) He offers to all of them and since Jesus Christ died for ALL , it seems logical and right from my perspective that agape' love is not only possible for ALL to practice but is actually practiced by people all over the world of different religious persuasions.
While the word used to describe the love involved in certain circumstances may not be the Greek agape' ; unconditional, self sacrificing , and altruistic being other words; the practice is not exclusive to any one group of people.
quote: God does not love christians more, how very evil of you to imply such a Statement.
it is about YOUR ego. it is about being better having something "they" do not. we do not have something unbelievers do not have , they can have it , God loves them, sorry if that disturbs your self righteousness
I never said or implied any of that; I said this...
The spirit of God within us gives us more ability to love than we had before, otherwise Christ died in vain.
God is love. He loves all equally, but people are not so. If I weigh 200 and you weigh 100 then I have more ability to do a cannonball in a swimming pool than you do. That doesn't mean that pool manufacturers love me more than you. Each of us has equal access to pools as far as I know. All people have equal access to God.
You are a woman. You have ovaries. I am a man. I do not have ovaries. Does having ovaries make you feel self righteous? Because you have them and I don't? Honestly, Pond, sometimes I don't think you're all there.
quote: God does not love christians more, how very evil of you to imply such a Statement.
it is about YOUR ego. it is about being better having something "they" do not. we do not have something unbelievers do not have , they can have it , God loves them, sorry if that disturbs your self righteousness
I never said or implied any of that; I said this...
The spirit of God within us gives us more ability to love than we had before, otherwise Christ died in vain.
God is love. He loves all equally, but people are not so. If I weigh 200 and you weigh 100 then I have more ability to do a cannonball in a swimming pool than you do. That doesn't mean that pool manufacturers love me more than you. Each of us has equal access to pools as far as I know. All people have equal access to God.
You are a woman. You have ovaries. I am a man. I do not have ovaries. Does having ovaries make you feel self righteous? Because you have them and I don't? Honestly, Pond, sometimes I don't think you're all there.
oh johniam it is YOU that has this special power hmm? again with the granted super power what color is your cape today?
how very trite and I thought it was a gift from God freely given by the very Blood of Christ. for the service of one another in LOVE to praise God in His Glory.
but if you insist it is because you deserve it well then how could anyone possibly compete? not even the only begotten Son.
another wanna be Jesus Christ in the making are you? working the deeds He did on your way to the kingdom?
how silly of me to know the job was complete in HIM. and every single thing you do today is by God's utter grace.
just because it is the truth I wouldnt want to shatter your list of who did what when and how and the check marks of earning your way into eternal life. yeah good luck with that.
In the mean time the RISEN Saviour of all mankind, laughs at your pompous foot knowing full well who wears the crown made only for HIM.
and still loves you.
hey now maybe that is the difference betwen arrogance and agape ya think?
Non Christians have no spiritual adversary trying to trip them up. They can often appear like the coolest people you ever met...UNTIL confronted with the word of God. Then their nasty side can come out.
One of the key problems facing this discussion is that those who are "born again" are invariably self -proclaimed--they say they are and with that they assume the mantle of arbitrators of the public good as well as the "correct" translators [sic] of scripture.
This renders any meaningful discussion difficult at best since any disagreement with their stance automatically means you are A) wrong and B) not "born Again"--
Since I have been wrong before the possibility that I am wrong again is not without merit, even though I don't think I am wrong in this case.
As to being, "born again", definitionally anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior has the new birth. The "born again" nomenclature is merely a methodology devised by some to elevate themselves to a self perceived higher ground.
So in an effort to get back to track it seems to me, as a Christian, that scripture is very clear.
Heavenly Father created all things through Jesus Christ thus all mankind are His children for without Him there would be no life.
Heavenly Father and His son Jesus Christ have a love that is all encompassing without regard to whether God's creations are worthy, merit or are in anyway deserving of that love.
It is the desire of Heavenly Father that all HIs children exhibit that same agape' love toward each other.
Jesus Christ exemplified that love while on this earth and exhorted and gave us directions in order that we would be able to do the same after His death and ressurection.
Therefore, since all that Heavenly Father offers to his children (read All mankind) He offers to all of them and since Jesus Christ died for ALL , it seems logical and right from my perspective that agape' love is not only possible for ALL to practice but is actually practiced by people all over the world of different religious persuasions.
While the word used to describe the love involved in certain circumstances may not be the Greek agape' ; unconditional, self sacrificing , and altruistic being other words; the practice is not exclusive to any one group of people.
If all mankind are the children of God by creation and are in no need of the new birth to attain sonship then Jesus Christ died for nothing. So once again, while all mankind may be 'children' of God through creation, in this day and time God requires the new birth to really have sonship. It is also clear that although Jesus Christ LOVED all men equally, he did differentiate in how he treated people even within the disciples. For example, he took only the twelve up the Mount of Transfiguration, and only Peter, James, and John all the way to the top. Likewise in the Garden of Gethsamane.
I agree that God (the Heavenly Father) OFFERS the ability for agape to all mankind as He offers the new birth to all amnkind, but that does not mean that all mankind is going to accept it.
The 'deeper meaning' of agape is what I saw so much of in TWI. This is love. Huh? It wasn't love, it was arrogance in many instances. Oh, but you're not spiritual or mature enough to understand. Trust me, I know...
I'm wary of people who have super spiritual knowledge of love but treat others...not well, because that is how you love someone like that. Its allowed. God told me it would wake them up. It just looks extreme and cruel. Trust me...
Even on this thread we have different definitions of what agape is.
Some say it is love that all humans are capable of.
Some say only born again Christians can love agape.
Some say it is the Love of God in manifestation in the household.
Perhaps the point of the poem was that another human, in a different belief system, far away from Chrsitian and Bible sources, seemed to know something about love.
It occurs to me that by expressing your opinion that what people in TWI practiced was not love without having any Biblical foundation to back up your opinion you are doing the same thing that you object to in YWI. What Jesus Christ did in the temple when he overturned the tables of the moneychangers to me looks extreme and cruel, but I still believe that God told him to do it, because the Bible says he always did the will of the Father.
It seems to me that your self-proclaimed non-Christian status limits your ability to make any meaningful contribution to this topic; as WordWolf said in a different context. It may be that some concepts of love are universal, as you say, but since you don't go to the Bible as source of truth, at best your statements are guesses; some of your guesses may be right, some may be wrong, but that is all they are, guesses, and as such I put them under a higher level of scrutiny than some other people's posts who do use the Bible to back them up.
oh johniam it is YOU that has this special power hmm? again with the granted super power what color is your cape today?
In my experience the people who really walk with agape don't regard it as being a super power, but they bring great meaning to the verse about whoever would be chief among you shall be the servant of all. They don't waste their time arguing about the definition of it; they are too busy living it. Unfortunately, too many times that includes me.
And are you absolutely positive no other non Christians are posting on this thread? Maybe you'd better question everyone! Who knows where one will lurk!
One nice thing--people can see how you treat non Christians, and make their own conclusions about your doctrine.
And are you absolutely positive no other non Christians are posting on this thread? Maybe you'd better question everyone! Who knows where one will lurk!
One nice thing--people can see how you treat non Christians, and make their own conclusions about your doctrine.
Agape or Arrogance?
Yes, but since you are not a Christian and don't believe in the Bible, you have no basis to say that the way I treat non- Christians is wrong.
It seems to me that your self-proclaimed non-Christian status limits your ability to make any meaningful contribution to this topic;
Well sure, it seems that way to you.
And who else is supposed to proclaim it? :unsure:
but since you don't go to the Bible as source of truth, at best your statements are guesses; some of your guesses may be right, some may be wrong, but that is all they are, guesses,
That's right, people who don't believe the bible cannot think, cannot reason, cannot come to correct decisions, they can only guess :blink:
and as such I put them under a higher level of scrutiny than some other people's posts who do use the Bible to back them up.
Yes, but since you are not a Christian and don't believe in the Bible, you have no basis to say that the way I treat non- Christians is wrong.
Yeah Bramble, you obviously cannot think for yourself or read what is written if you're not a Christian...
Edited by Oakspear
Yes, but since you are not a Christian and don't believe in the Bible, you have no basis to say that the way I treat non- Christians is wrong.
That's just laughable. I don't have to say how you treat non Christians--it's right out there! You are the one that shows how you treat non Christians.
That's right, people who don't believe the bible cannot think, cannot reason, cannot come to correct decisions, they can only guess
Yeah Bramble, you obviously cannot think for yourself or read what is written if you're not a Christian...
Certainly, they can, but without that they have no way to know if what they think, reason, decide is true or not. What if I decide that the correct way to worship God is by offering you as a burnt offering. Without the Bible you have no way to discern that I am wrong.
That's just laughable. I don't have to say how you treat non Christians--it's right out there! You are the one that shows how you treat non Christians.
funny when bible verses are used to prove your statement as false you just gloss over that pretend it didnt happen.
did ya see the romans verse about your contention that unbelievers have "no one to trip them up"?
of course not . and on and on it goes when one worships the bible as an idol to be placed above what Jesus Commands .
We all know the verse study and show yourself apporved before God a workman ... blah blah and you think making a book an idol above loving what God loves namely, His creation? your a fool and slap Jesus in the face every time you write.
it is christians like you that make me want to see the bema in full glory, as Jesus sits on His throne and says geez you know alot of bible verses but not me or my Fathers will.
it is christians like you who make other never want to know Jesus as LORD, your testimony stinks of self righteous works much like the religous leaders that had Jesus arrested.
Greetings! Was I a sock when you posted? I think I was!
Very very interesting question. Welcome "back", by the way.
One observation - defining "agape" as unconditional "love" is a little limiting, IMO. Using that as a definiton, or the longer one the Way taught, doesn't capture the whole of what it means to love, be it any of the greek words (agape/phileo/eros). It's a part of it, but tends to be too flat in and of itself. It needs some meat on them bones, some rubber where it's hitting the road.
Other stuff Jesus said about love -
You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Paul also said -
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
Those things do have some traction, I think. To love in this way could be described as "godly", or "divine". It certainly seems to be of a higher level than the normal things that run through our minds a lot of the time. But when we're at our best, as parents to our children, caretakers to our families, contributors to our communities - when we're doing it more than saying it, it's very attainable, very human, almost normal. Demanding, yes.
I picture it as - to aspire to these kinds of things, to attempt to think or be that way is to live as if everyone deserves to be treated so. At some point, everyone does. Or did. Or could someday. Maybe.
It's a little corny, very much idealistic, but for me it's to see the essence of the value of another human as the life they have. That commodity is rare and precious. Only those who have it, do. When it's gone, it's gone, period and nothing replaces it. Life in and of itself is something incredibly hard to imagine, I certainly can't really imagine what it would be like to not be alive. But - we know at some point that's coming.
Given that we may or may not be coming back this way again, it doesn't seem unreasonable to leave the best tracks we can. If nothing else, something that would be worthwhile remembered or found, if anyone were to look.
I thought this post was worth repeating...(as are so many of his posts...in case you haven't noticed, Socks is an amazing guy)
I'm not really sure that anything else needs to be said...so I won't. :)
quote: did ya see the romans verse about your contention that unbelievers have "no one to trip them up"?
of course not . and on and on it goes when one worships the bible as an idol to be placed above what Jesus Commands .
Romans is talking about reaping what you sew. That's not the same thing as having someone actively trying to sabotage you. Jesus quoted the OT 94 times in just what was recorded in the gospels. He must have worshipped the bible as an idol too, eh? In his resurrected body he appeared to 2 men with whom he walked 7 miles and beginning at Moses he expounded to the 2 men all things in the scriptures concerning himself. What a shame. Jesus not only worshipped the bible as an idol himself, but he knowingly led these 2 innocent men into the same pernicious habit. Ya THINK ya KNOW a guy. You think you know a lot more than you know (Gal 6:3).
Certainly, they can, but without that they have no way to know if what they think, reason, decide is true or not. What if I decide that the correct way to worship God is by offering you as a burnt offering. Without the Bible you have no way to discern that I am wrong.
As was discussed earlier on this thread about self-love - I think one's love of life is a fairly good indication that murder is wrong. I also mentioned this on the TWI's Sedative to the Conscience thread – how there seems to be a common sense of decency and morality in all people of any time and culture – typically laws are made to protect life, promote honesty, protect ownership, etc. And that just as the capacity to love appears to be an innate feature of people so too is the ability to discern right from wrong, the moral laws written in the Bible merely repeating what the Creator has already written in the hearts of human beings:
Romans 2:14, 15 NIV
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
Certainly, they can, but without that they have no way to know if what they think, reason, decide is true or not.
I would accept that...but would add that the bible believers don't either.
What if I decide that the correct way to worship God is by offering you as a burnt offering. Without the Bible you have no way to discern that I am wrong.
Then you would have to find a way to persude me that I should happily get offered.
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Wanted to add that I am not interested in an Iam war. Bait away.
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pond
Johniam
You say "non Christians have no spiritual adversary trying to trip them up"
ya know take a look at. Rom 2:9 there will be tribulatin and distress for every human being who does evil.
Using the bible is just dangerous unless your absolutly positive you know of what you think and it is impossible to know God through that source only because "the world can not contain the books that would have to be written about even what happened in the time of Jesus on earth"! the bible says so in the book of Rev.
do not play a victim for God to me . Evil is evil and LOVE is LOVE. period. end of discussion to put all these conditions and agenda's and complications on that TRUTH is called religous spin and that has caused more pain damage and death throughout history than all the what you call "unbelievers" put together.
Christians need God. Those who not seek a God do not need HIM. ( the story isnt all done as the bible states) and that is where we are at as a people who follow the manner of Jesus christ.
God does not love christians more, how very evil of you to imply such a Statement.
His will is all be saved from death. but not all will chose that. the creations of God ALL of the creations of God are "good", how in hell some of you take this arrogant attitude and that is EXACTLY what it is and begin to draw line of who is who in God thinking who is LOVE is just freaking rdiciulas.
it is about YOUR ego. it is about being better having something "they" do not. we do not have something unbelievers do not have , they can have it , God loves them, sorry if that disturbs your self righteousness.
At the return Jesus will be KING to ALL but not every person will even then accept HIM as the SAVIOUR. Of course having Jesus as KING may influence some and the christians and the jews will adore HIM so some will convert and accept His position in Gods plan. not all ! some will be born and live and not chose the bible story and will live with us in paradise. in a world withut the issue of sin, does that sound like God doesnt like the unbeliever to YOU?
Jesus again will ask or keep on aksing do you believe I defeated Death and God raised me to life ? and those who say uh NO ! Can play with Satan when he rolls out of the chain and we will all know then who will win! (hint I think it is Jesus Christ and us)
God loves people . hello it is up to us to decide our life or death. not until the throne is given back to God and death is destroyed will eternal life begin and seeing as DEATH is destroyed we do not have the problem of it. Gods plan is done!!
untill then the unbeliever and those not so much unbelievers will be together living with both Jesus Christ and God and I happen to believe their will is one of love and life.
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pond
I consider myself a christian and I see a lines in the bible all the time in fact that is what it is a book about this or that manner of life.
Jesus draws a line when He says to be able to live for eternity with HIM and God you have to believe He did what He did at the resurrection.
If you do not trust HIM enough to think God called HIM a SAviour do as you may.
boundaries are NOT about the other guy and what they do and or do not do. No one has control or power over another, without manipulation and or abuse.
healthy boundaries are about what YOU can or can not do. I think Jesus excelled at teaching us that very fact.
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another spot
Shifra:
Awhile back, you wrote a post in response to mine that I never responded to. You said something about didn’t I care how others treated me, and the rest of it, I frankly didn’t understand at the time. After reading your post on the accountability thread, I think I understand much better.
For me personally, no I really don’t care in the sense I try to act ethically as much as possible and I really don’t believe 2 wrongs make a right. Do I like it that others sometimes treat me badly? Not at all. When I find myself around someone like this, I first try to communicate that I have boundaries if there is going to continue to be interaction. When my boundaries are not respected, I disassociate myself from them. Lifes’ circumstances don’t always make that easy or possible. To me, agape as I see it defined in the Bible has to do with ethics. Others clearly see it differently. Would I love someone in the sense of emotion who regularly treats me badly? No, I am not a masochist.
One of many troubles with twi was there was no possibility of boundaries and their very theology prevented it. You could not say “no” regardless of how hurtful a circumstance or the actions of others were. For a lot of us, it didn’t cross our minds. It was living in a cactus patch and thinking that greater obedience was the solution. Obedience and service that requires personal harm is slavery and worse. If giving means I do all the giving while someone else does all the taking at my expense, then that is ethically wrong.
The thing about boundaries is it is a way of defining where you stop and I begin. It is a form of self love. It is a healthy thing. It is your territory of yourself. It is OK to take care of it. We can take care of it ethically. It shouldn’t have to be either or, like in a war where someone must always lose and be hurt. When win/win can’t be achieved, then the simplest thing is to exit if possible. I believe the ethics of others are their responsibility and I avoid passing judgment or deciding what their ethics should be. That is controlling. In that sense I usually don’t care how others act, I simply require my boundaries to be respected. I don’t believe agape means we can’t have boundaries.
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templelady
One of the key problems facing this discussion is that those who are "born again" are invariably self -proclaimed--they say they are and with that they assume the mantle of arbitrators of the public good as well as the "correct" translators [sic] of scripture.
This renders any meaningful discussion difficult at best since any disagreement with their stance automatically means you are A) wrong and B) not "born Again"--
Since I have been wrong before the possibility that I am wrong again is not without merit, even though I don't think I am wrong in this case.
As to being, "born again", definitionally anyone who accepts Jesus Christ as their Lord and Savior has the new birth. The "born again" nomenclature is merely a methodology devised by some to elevate themselves to a self perceived higher ground.
So in an effort to get back to track it seems to me, as a Christian, that scripture is very clear.
Heavenly Father created all things through Jesus Christ thus all mankind are His children for without Him there would be no life.
Heavenly Father and His son Jesus Christ have a love that is all encompassing without regard to whether God's creations are worthy, merit or are in anyway deserving of that love.
It is the desire of Heavenly Father that all HIs children exhibit that same agape' love toward each other.
Jesus Christ exemplified that love while on this earth and exhorted and gave us directions in order that we would be able to do the same after His death and ressurection.
Therefore, since all that Heavenly Father offers to his children (read All mankind) He offers to all of them and since Jesus Christ died for ALL , it seems logical and right from my perspective that agape' love is not only possible for ALL to practice but is actually practiced by people all over the world of different religious persuasions.
While the word used to describe the love involved in certain circumstances may not be the Greek agape' ; unconditional, self sacrificing , and altruistic being other words; the practice is not exclusive to any one group of people.
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johniam
quote: God does not love christians more, how very evil of you to imply such a Statement.
it is about YOUR ego. it is about being better having something "they" do not. we do not have something unbelievers do not have , they can have it , God loves them, sorry if that disturbs your self righteousness
I never said or implied any of that; I said this...
The spirit of God within us gives us more ability to love than we had before, otherwise Christ died in vain.
God is love. He loves all equally, but people are not so. If I weigh 200 and you weigh 100 then I have more ability to do a cannonball in a swimming pool than you do. That doesn't mean that pool manufacturers love me more than you. Each of us has equal access to pools as far as I know. All people have equal access to God.
You are a woman. You have ovaries. I am a man. I do not have ovaries. Does having ovaries make you feel self righteous? Because you have them and I don't? Honestly, Pond, sometimes I don't think you're all there.
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pond
oh johniam it is YOU that has this special power hmm? again with the granted super power what color is your cape today?
how very trite and I thought it was a gift from God freely given by the very Blood of Christ. for the service of one another in LOVE to praise God in His Glory.
but if you insist it is because you deserve it well then how could anyone possibly compete? not even the only begotten Son.
another wanna be Jesus Christ in the making are you? working the deeds He did on your way to the kingdom?
how silly of me to know the job was complete in HIM. and every single thing you do today is by God's utter grace.
just because it is the truth I wouldnt want to shatter your list of who did what when and how and the check marks of earning your way into eternal life. yeah good luck with that.
In the mean time the RISEN Saviour of all mankind, laughs at your pompous foot knowing full well who wears the crown made only for HIM.
and still loves you.
hey now maybe that is the difference betwen arrogance and agape ya think?
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Oakspear
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Jeaniam
If all mankind are the children of God by creation and are in no need of the new birth to attain sonship then Jesus Christ died for nothing. So once again, while all mankind may be 'children' of God through creation, in this day and time God requires the new birth to really have sonship. It is also clear that although Jesus Christ LOVED all men equally, he did differentiate in how he treated people even within the disciples. For example, he took only the twelve up the Mount of Transfiguration, and only Peter, James, and John all the way to the top. Likewise in the Garden of Gethsamane.
I agree that God (the Heavenly Father) OFFERS the ability for agape to all mankind as He offers the new birth to all amnkind, but that does not mean that all mankind is going to accept it.
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Jeaniam
It occurs to me that by expressing your opinion that what people in TWI practiced was not love without having any Biblical foundation to back up your opinion you are doing the same thing that you object to in YWI. What Jesus Christ did in the temple when he overturned the tables of the moneychangers to me looks extreme and cruel, but I still believe that God told him to do it, because the Bible says he always did the will of the Father.
It seems to me that your self-proclaimed non-Christian status limits your ability to make any meaningful contribution to this topic; as WordWolf said in a different context. It may be that some concepts of love are universal, as you say, but since you don't go to the Bible as source of truth, at best your statements are guesses; some of your guesses may be right, some may be wrong, but that is all they are, guesses, and as such I put them under a higher level of scrutiny than some other people's posts who do use the Bible to back them up.
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Jeaniam
In my experience the people who really walk with agape don't regard it as being a super power, but they bring great meaning to the verse about whoever would be chief among you shall be the servant of all. They don't waste their time arguing about the definition of it; they are too busy living it. Unfortunately, too many times that includes me.
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Bramble
Sigh. Once again, this thread is not about me.
And are you absolutely positive no other non Christians are posting on this thread? Maybe you'd better question everyone! Who knows where one will lurk!
One nice thing--people can see how you treat non Christians, and make their own conclusions about your doctrine.
Agape or Arrogance?
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Oakspear
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Jeaniam
Yes, but since you are not a Christian and don't believe in the Bible, you have no basis to say that the way I treat non- Christians is wrong.
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Oakspear
And who else is supposed to proclaim it? :unsure:
That's right, people who don't believe the bible cannot think, cannot reason, cannot come to correct decisions, they can only guess :blink:Link to comment
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Bramble
That's just laughable. I don't have to say how you treat non Christians--it's right out there! You are the one that shows how you treat non Christians.
eDITED BECAUSE i TYP GOOD.
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Jeaniam
Certainly, they can, but without that they have no way to know if what they think, reason, decide is true or not. What if I decide that the correct way to worship God is by offering you as a burnt offering. Without the Bible you have no way to discern that I am wrong.
Well, that isn't what I said.
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Bramble
I apologise to Shifra for the derail of her thread. It was kind of fun, though. Only on GSC.
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pond
funny when bible verses are used to prove your statement as false you just gloss over that pretend it didnt happen.
did ya see the romans verse about your contention that unbelievers have "no one to trip them up"?
of course not . and on and on it goes when one worships the bible as an idol to be placed above what Jesus Commands .
We all know the verse study and show yourself apporved before God a workman ... blah blah and you think making a book an idol above loving what God loves namely, His creation? your a fool and slap Jesus in the face every time you write.
it is christians like you that make me want to see the bema in full glory, as Jesus sits on His throne and says geez you know alot of bible verses but not me or my Fathers will.
it is christians like you who make other never want to know Jesus as LORD, your testimony stinks of self righteous works much like the religous leaders that had Jesus arrested.
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pond
Jesus says it is the reason we have HOLY Spirit to guide us and teach us truth.
Again your condition of bible verses to enter the kingdom or to know truth is a flat out lie.
Jesus says He is the truth , the ability to read a book has NOTHING to do with accepting HIM as lord or not.
your insane and make up stuff as you go .
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GrouchoMarxJr
I thought this post was worth repeating...(as are so many of his posts...in case you haven't noticed, Socks is an amazing guy)
I'm not really sure that anything else needs to be said...so I won't. :)
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johniam
quote: did ya see the romans verse about your contention that unbelievers have "no one to trip them up"?
of course not . and on and on it goes when one worships the bible as an idol to be placed above what Jesus Commands .
Romans is talking about reaping what you sew. That's not the same thing as having someone actively trying to sabotage you. Jesus quoted the OT 94 times in just what was recorded in the gospels. He must have worshipped the bible as an idol too, eh? In his resurrected body he appeared to 2 men with whom he walked 7 miles and beginning at Moses he expounded to the 2 men all things in the scriptures concerning himself. What a shame. Jesus not only worshipped the bible as an idol himself, but he knowingly led these 2 innocent men into the same pernicious habit. Ya THINK ya KNOW a guy. You think you know a lot more than you know (Gal 6:3).
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T-Bone
As was discussed earlier on this thread about self-love - I think one's love of life is a fairly good indication that murder is wrong. I also mentioned this on the TWI's Sedative to the Conscience thread – how there seems to be a common sense of decency and morality in all people of any time and culture – typically laws are made to protect life, promote honesty, protect ownership, etc. And that just as the capacity to love appears to be an innate feature of people so too is the ability to discern right from wrong, the moral laws written in the Bible merely repeating what the Creator has already written in the hearts of human beings:
Romans 2:14, 15 NIV
14 (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15 since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.)
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Oakspear
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