I was sitting here, eating breakfast and decided to go back to the computer to add a few thoughts about how TWI ignored the Gospels, because I too think this is related to the Agape issues. I checked the GS thread, and ... wow! ... you had already posted this very thing!
I think this would be a great topic for a thread of its own. Wanna start a new topic?
Thank you Shifra and Jeaniam...I like what everyone has posted on this thread - why start a new one when you've got this one doing a good job covering a lot of ground.
Interesting to note that the two great commandments laid out by Jesus Christ both involved love (agapeo.)
But it does say to agapeo ourselves, too...
Never really thought about that before.
Jesus Christ is the only one who really walked the law perfectly, and he himself did not necessarily keep the letter of the law as described by the religious authorities of the time (at least in how they perceived that law.) His walk was based on the heart of the law, described in the two great commandements.
Interesting...
If we were able to agape ourselves, would we let people walk all over us?
...If we were able to agape ourselves, would we let people walk all over us?
I tend to think this agape type of love is far and above different from any caricatures of "Christian love" where we are rendered doormats for Jesus. Maybe there's something along the lines of what Bliss was saying in post # 17 – there being a self-preservation drive in us – to maintain and protect ourselves – I think that's a healthy thing…Thinking about the agape love exemplified in Jesus in the gospels – He doesn't hit me as a limp dishrag. Somehow He escaped an angry mob trying to throw Him off a cliff at the beginning of His ministry. Over zeal for His Father's house He – with maybe the frenzy of a madman – drove the moneychangers out! He looked around in anger at the religious leaders who frowned upon helping a man on the Sabbath.
…And last but not least, His death on the cross was NOT martyrdom but a sacrifice! He was not a victim but victorious! He allowed that to happen as the only way to redeem mankind…Which makes me think of His words about there being no greater love than laying down your life for another. Yes – there is an aspect of agape love that is capable of self-sacrifice – if need be. True heroes of this world that make the ultimate sacrifice for a noble cause will attest to that. I imagine most true heroes like that didn't harbor a death wish or view their life as something so cheap as to be squandered needlessly.
Not to send this to the doctrinal section, so I will mention again how "MESSED UP" the WAY's definitions of everything is like WG said.....She also mentions this renewed mind trap...
The word ''renewed '' is in the passive voice. Which means it's done TO us.
It also is in the imparative mood...........which means, this is a command.........
There is one more, but I can't find my notes, but its being done ''continually''.
What are the conditions?
Surrender. Absolute submission to the ONE who is LOVE.
The ONE who is ALL POWERFUL (and able to love the unlovable).
The ONE who is able to ''turn the other cheek''.
The ONE who is able to ''forgive others''
The ONE who is able to ''Protect'' "persevere" and is "patient''.
I think we struggle with this topic and our imperfections because we focus on OUR ability to do it.
Phill 4:13 (another mis translation thanks to the Way) says
"I can do all things THROUGH CHRIST WHO STREGTHENS ME"!
It is through HIM that we can love with the pure agape love.
It is through HIM that we can ''do the works" that show the signs of a Christian life.
Its not about our works. Its not about our ability to get it done. It is about allowing HIM to do works through and in us.
Like T-bone mentioned, its about ''relationship''.
If we all allow this surrendering relationship to Christ to take hold of us, then, I'll make a bet we will be ''agape ing'' all over the place~~~~!!!
I am coming in this one late and don't have it thought through like you guys do, but I will think about it more.
Just off the top of my head, tho. Jesus was summarizing the 10 commandments when he said love God love your neighbor. Some apply to loving God, some applying to loving your neighbor. If you go back and read them, they aren't all that difficult to do. The NT gives much more on the fine points. I think being born again gives us the ability to do a better job of it and we can always get better at it. I don't see the point in giving us something to do that we can't do. (Has that been said?)
Don't think I can go with a passive, Christ in me approach. Commandments involve obedience which would involve a conscience decision. Not much obedience to it otherwise and it wouldn't mean nearly so much to me as a giver or others as a receiver. On the other hand, if I make a conscience and deliberate decision to love you then that is really powerful and affects you way deep down.
Loving God as He loves us? That needs thinking. I can't think of a single thing I can do that God couldn't do better.
"the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation"
That was another of VPW taking something and twisting it to fit so he could use it to furthuer his agenda.
If you instead say "the Love of God in manifestation" you have agape. That "renewed mind" inserted in there was the millstone around our necks. Everytime we failed to "bless" leadership we were told to renew our minds. Every wrong we did was due to lack of a renewed mind. This was at the rank and file level-- I cannot begin to comprehend what it was like at the corps level.
Loving your neighbor as yourself -- means extending agape love
It means, when your neighbors are having a party and the reverberating music is making the migraine you already had feel like Gimli son of Gloin and his entire family are mining for mithril just behind your left eye, before heading out the door you take a moment to think how you would want to be approached regarding the problem if the shoe was on the other foot INSTEAD of just going over, in your pain wracked state, yelling at them to "Turn it DOwn!!"
I'm certainly no theologian, but I think the TWI definition of just about everything was bogus. If we are to love with the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household" does that mean that we don't have to love anyone with the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation who is NOT in the household? Sure seemed that way to me, especially in the Martindale administration.
I'm not even sure any more I believe that I am solely responsible to "renew my mind". If God gave Saul a new heart, maybe He does that for others. I've actually asked God to help me with this and He has, via Holy Spirit.
Shifra, I personally have found myself listening to other Christian sources besides TWI and it can be helpful. You have to be careful, true, but I know personally I tended to over-examine, too minutely, everything that is not in "perfect alignment and flawless harmony" with TWI-talk. It's pretty shocking to realize that no, I don't have all the answers, and no, I'm not better than your average Joe Believer because I've had this class and that seminar, and the other advance 50 times running.
I've learned a lot of stuff that has been quite wonderful, but like I say, I'm no theologian, and I generally don't like nitpicking - I really don't care how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. But I hope this humble rambling helps.
Oh and to make a short story long, no I personally don't think I can love exactly like God loves. That's why I'm not God and He is.
Love ya and welcome back,
WG
You make a number of very good points. I also have asked God to help me by purifying or cleaning my heart and He has as it says in Psalm 51:10-12--"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free (willing) spirit". We have been taught that some of those things are not available in this administration but there have been many times in my life when I asked God to restore me to the great joy I first felt when I realized I was born again of incorruptible seed. It's very true that we need to examine our 'differences' with other groups and make sure that we are not quibbling over semantics or a situation where both groups are saying the same thing but it sounds odd because we're not used to hearing it phrased a different way.
I tend to think this agape type of love is far and above different from any caricatures of "Christian love" where we are rendered doormats for Jesus. Maybe there's something along the lines of what Bliss was saying in post # 17 – there being a self-preservation drive in us – to maintain and protect ourselves – I think that's a healthy thing…Thinking about the agape love exemplified in Jesus in the gospels – He doesn't hit me as a limp dishrag. Somehow He escaped an angry mob trying to throw Him off a cliff at the beginning of His ministry. Over zeal for His Father's house He – with maybe the frenzy of a madman – drove the moneychangers out! He looked around in anger at the religious leaders who frowned upon helping a man on the Sabbath.
…And last but not least, His death on the cross was NOT martyrdom but a sacrifice! He was not a victim but victorious! He allowed that to happen as the only way to redeem mankind…Which makes me think of His words about there being no greater love than laying down your life for another. Yes – there is an aspect of agape love that is capable of self-sacrifice – if need be. True heroes of this world that make the ultimate sacrifice for a noble cause will attest to that. I imagine most true heroes like that didn't harbor a death wish or view their life as something so cheap as to be squandered needlessly.
I have been away from GreaseSpot for awhile, seeking my fortune and dreaming new dreams. (You knew me before as Xena and before that as Schwaigers). I needed to come back to get your input on some thoughts I've had about the concept of "Agape", the messed-up lessons we learned from TWI, and how this relatively small piece of misinformation has impacted all of us.
Nice to be home.
Xena was an angry warrior woman, and with that identity, I could express my recent divorced self. Not really me. Schwaigers was the married name, under which I would post things without assistance from my other half, even though I made it look like it came from both of us. Also a facade. Shifra is me, the midwife, the mom. You guys know me.
Enough preface and re-intro. Here's my latest curiosity:
TWI taught us that Agape was "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household". Yuk. The rest of the world said it meant "unconditional love". Either way, I am now wondering if Agape is or has ever been HUMANLY possible. I propose that it is a form of love which only God can actually ... do. Sorta comparable to Creation.
Could it be that for us to even attempt such love is arrogant and presumptuous?
Could it be that making such attempts puts us into the role of a martyr, tolerating and accepting fellow Christians (and others) to the point of damaging or endangering ourselves?
To me it seems that this level of love far exceeds the love of self, and as Jesus taught we are to love our neighbors AS OURSELVES. Agape implies self-sacrifice - and beyond.
And what about TWI itself? Certainly they did not practice Agape. Any hint of love that they may have offered was totally conditional.
But if we are indeed NOT practicing Agape, then are we as Paul writes, nothing more than a "sounding brass or a tinkling cimbal"? Hmmmmmm. Well, brass and cimbals aint so bad. Add a couple of guitars and ya got yourself a good rock band. Talk to me.
Shifra
Paul explains in Corinthians what agape is. But as is often the case, words just don't convey
the real sense of what it really is.
As a Christian, I have thought about it a lot myself. Unconditional love is not all that hard to
do. Or is it ? What's more difficult is trying to figure out what the motives are. Sometimes I will think
about motives too much, which can get me sidetracked and into a place where I do nothing.
At times I have "felt" agape in me - that sounds weird - but I have had at times this really excellent
inspirational type agape love to do something, or pray for someone, or worship God in a way
that comes from deep in the heart someplace. Getting connected to God in this way is very cool.
"Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" somehow sounds so cold and clinical. too many
"the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation"
That was another of VPW taking something and twisting it to fit so he could use it to furthuer his agenda.
If you instead say "the Love of God in manifestation" you have agape. That "renewed mind" inserted in there was the millstone around our necks. Everytime we failed to "bless" leadership we were told to renew our minds. Every wrong we did was due to lack of a renewed mind. This was at the rank and file level-- I cannot begin to comprehend what it was like at the corps level.
Loving your neighbor as yourself -- means extending agape love
It means, when your neighbors are having a party and the reverberating music is making the migraine you already had feel like Gimli son of Gloin and his entire family are mining for mithril just behind your left eye, before heading out the door you take a moment to think how you would want to be approached regarding the problem if the shoe was on the other foot INSTEAD of just going over, in your pain wracked state, yelling at them to "Turn it DOwn!!"
Interesting point about the renewed mind. But I can see how the complete definition of agape
could include the renewed mind part. I just don't know if the agape definition was put
together by VPW in a way to enhance some twisted agenda...I hate to think (and don't believe it....
maybe i am just too naive) that I once fellowshipped with people who were
such snaking connivers
The love of God in manifestation in the renewed mind to me sort of connotes
that there is a difference between loving God from a renewed mind as opposed to from a mind
that is not being renewed. It could then be said that someone who is not a believer cannot
have - in a Biblical sense - a mind that is being renewed, and therefore cannot really love
God in an agape fashion. It could be then also said that - in the spirit of "if you don't know me then
you don't know the Father" - that someone without holy spirit, unsaved, cannot truly love
in the agape way.
Still, that "love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" is a mouthful, and sounds kind
of cold and clinical.
Loving your neighbor and God as yourself sounds more do-able.
The love of God in manifestation in the renewed mind to me sort of connotes
that there is a difference between loving God from a renewed mind as opposed to from a mind
that is not being renewed. It could then be said that someone who is not a believer cannot
have - in a Biblical sense - a mind that is being renewed, and therefore cannot really love
God in an agape fashion. It could be then also said that - in the spirit of "if you don't know me then
you don't know the Father" - that someone without holy spirit, unsaved, cannot truly love
in the agape way.
If someone who is not a believer cannot have a mind that is being renewed, how is it that 1000's of unbelievers are converted to Christianity every month all over the world?? They could not be converted unless there mind was being renewed so that the Gospel could take hold.
And to say that a non-believer cannot love their neighbor as they wish them selves to be loved, that they cannot treat their neighbor with the same kind and caring considerations that they would want to be treated flies in the face of common sense. THere are thousand of non-believers who everday exemplify Christian virtue while not being Christians
I think true Christianity is about the dynamic relationship with our Lord and the Bible as merely a means to that end [developing that relationship with Him]. In my opinion, VPW’s work focused more on his pet Bible doctrines than on developing a relationship with the Lord. Between that and the dispensational cold-shoulder he gave the gospels – there was little that encouraged followers to live the love that Jesus invites us to experience. The epistles are great – one of my favorite books is Romans. But nothing gets my mind tracking with my Lord’s idea of love than reading the gospels. Sure – Christian living starts out at an intellectual level – but at some point it graduates, deepens as our hearts engage the truth personally – which is to say we engage our Lord personally.
I think some leaders (vpw was one) are less than keen about encouraging a relationship with the Lord
Jesus Christ-
because that takes away from their own unstated goal to be lord INSTEAD.
Heck, my own reluctance to do so might have a lot to do with my own thoughts about being "lord".....
If someone who is not a believer cannot have a mind that is being renewed, how is it that 1000's of unbelievers are converted to Christianity every month all over the world?? They could not be converted unless there mind was being renewed so that the Gospel could take hold.
And to say that a non-believer cannot love their neighbor as they wish them selves to be loved, that they cannot treat their neighbor with the same kind and caring considerations that they would want to be treated flies in the face of common sense. THere are thousand of non-believers who everday exemplify Christian virtue while not being Christians
That's not really what caribousam said. I think that the point cs was trying to make is that you can't really love with agape without having been born again, and having received holy spirit. Agape seems to go beyond loving your neighbor as you would wish yourself to be loved into loving someone when there is absolutely nothing in it for yourself.
I think some leaders (vpw was one) are less than keen about encouraging a relationship with the Lord
Jesus Christ-
because that takes away from their own unstated goal to be lord INSTEAD...
It's funny how you read something and another thought pops into your head. When I read your post for some reason, a line from PFAL popped into my head. It's VPW's litmus test: You tell me what you think of Jesus Christ and I'll tell you how far you're going to go spiritually…And you know me – with a bad habit of trying to tie things together …This may be totally off the wall but here goes…
An expert in the law asked Jesus which is the greatest commandment in the law. Jesus' answer is a little out of the ordinary – for the expert asked which ONE was the greatest and Jesus said there were TWO:
Matthew 22:34-40 NIV
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b]38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c]40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
It seems like there's a lot going on between the two great commandments…intertwined somehow…So maybe VPW's litmus test is more of an intellectual approach. But I think a focus on the two great commandments might be a more practical method of self-evaluation. What does the way I treat my neighbor say about how much I love God?...Does that even make sense?…Just thought I'd throw that out there…I'm just fascinated how inexhaustibly rich and deep the two great commandments are – they've come up on a few threads lately.
You got pretty close to the description of Agape - as I understand it - when you said it was like "loving someone else when there is nothing in it for you".
That's the concept of Agape I was thinking about, when I started this thread.
If, in fact, there's nothing in it (no benefits) for the person who is doing the Agape'ing, then, at what point is that person giving too much? At what point is that person allowing themself to be used? At what point does Agape become damaging or dangerous to the person performing it? At what point does Agape step over the line into loving someone else MORE than one's self?
... Because when this happens, then the second commandment is violated. The second commandment does NOT say "love your neighbor MORE THAN yourself"; it says AS yourself.
"AS" means "the same as" or "equally". Not "more than".
Agape seems to have no boundaries. People need boundaries. Otherwise, we give and give and give, until we give ourselves away!
God, on the other hand, He can handle this kind of love.
But us earthlings ... well, the ones I know, who have tried to walk the talk of Agape ... have indeed gotten walked ... on. Crushed, to be more specific.
That's not really what caribousam said. I think that the point cs was trying to make is that you can't really love with agape without having been born again, and having received holy spirit. Agape seems to go beyond loving your neighbor as you would wish yourself to be loved into loving someone when there is absolutely nothing in it for yourself.
Loving you neighbor as yourself does not only refer to your literal neighbor but to the fact that we are all neighbors to each other in the viewpoint of the Almighty. From that view there is often nothing in it for you --in point of fact there is often nothing in it for you even if you know the person.
And I again, submit that it is possible to exhibit Agape love without being "born again". We are all the children of God, and as such we all have the inate ability to love as He loves. Being "born again" refers to accepting Jesus Christ as the Son of God and His atonement for us. It is elitist to claim that those not "born again" cannot exhibit agape especially when we note that when Christ spoke these words He was addressing a mixed group of individuals BEFORE Gesthemene and the crucifixtion. He was telling them that that kind of love was possible right then--not at some point in the future.
Actually, the second command was changed. In John 13 Jesus said a new commandment I give unto you. He said love one another "as I have loved you", not as you love yourself. He had just finished washing their feet AND he didn't say that until Judas left. Interesting.
Actually, the second command was changed. In John 13 Jesus said a new commandment I give unto you. He said love one anotherr "as I have loved you", not as you love yourself. Her had just finished washing their feet AND he didn't say that until Judas left. Interesting.
I was gonna say that. But then I thought it obvious.
When I left HQ, I would witness this point to folks. . . Nobody cared.
You got pretty close to the description of Agape - as I understand it - when you said it was like "loving someone else when there is nothing in it for you".
That's the concept of Agape I was thinking about, when I started this thread.
If, in fact, there's nothing in it (no benefits) for the person who is doing the Agape'ing, then, at what point is that person giving too much? At what point is that person allowing themself to be used? At what point does Agape become damaging or dangerous to the person performing it? At what point does Agape step over the line into loving someone else MORE than one's self?
... Because when this happens, then the second commandment is violated. The second commandment does NOT say "love your neighbor MORE THAN yourself"; it says AS yourself.
"AS" means "the same as" or "equally". Not "more than".
Agape seems to have no boundaries. People need boundaries. Otherwise, we give and give and give, until we give ourselves away!
God, on the other hand, He can handle this kind of love.
But us earthlings ... well, the ones I know, who have tried to walk the talk of Agape ... have indeed gotten walked ... on. Crushed, to be more specific.
Shifra
Well, obviously, Jesus Christ got walked...on. Crushed, to be more specific. And obviously, he gave and gave and gave, more than any human being ever did before or since. He sacrificed his whole life for our good. He never did one self-seeking thing and he gave up all the things any normal man wants. He never married, never had children, probably never knew the release of having sex, and ended his life in torture and cruelty that were unequalled before or since. It seems to me that the definition that TWI developed for agape is probably accurate 'the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation' no matter how cold it may seem. Agape love starts in the mind or as an act of the will, and is not an emotion, although it may issue forth or manifest itself as an emotion. I am not sure about the part about 'loving when there is absolutely nothing in it for yourself'; even Christ was apparently motivated by something being in it for him. In Hebrews 12:2 it says that Jesus Christ endured the cross for the joy that was set before him, and despised the shame, etc. I'm still thinking over the 'renewed' mind and trying to see about Biblical backing for that.
And, templelady, unfortunately, in this day and time, we (the whole human race) are not all 'childen of God', but being a 'child of God' requires belief in Romans 10:9&10. This may be 'elitist' as you say, but than God must be an 'elitist' since He is the one who set it up that way.
And, Bolshevik, I am sorry about the indifference of people in the past, but we care NOW.
It's funny how you read something and another thought pops into your head. When I read your post for some reason, a line from PFAL popped into my head. It's VPW's litmus test: You tell me what you think of Jesus Christ and I'll tell you how far you're going to go spiritually…And you know me – with a bad habit of trying to tie things together …This may be totally off the wall but here goes…
An expert in the law asked Jesus which is the greatest commandment in the law. Jesus' answer is a little out of the ordinary – for the expert asked which ONE was the greatest and Jesus said there were TWO:
Matthew 22:34-40 NIV
34Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36"Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b]38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c]40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
It seems like there's a lot going on between the two great commandments…intertwined somehow…So maybe VPW's litmus test is more of an intellectual approach. But I think a focus on the two great commandments might be a more practical method of self-evaluation. What does the way I treat my neighbor say about how much I love God?...Does that even make sense?…Just thought I'd throw that out there…I'm just fascinated how inexhaustibly rich and deep the two great commandments are – they've come up on a few threads lately.
I guess it is questionable if we can legitimately say that you love God whom we have not seen if we don't love our neighbor whom we have seen. Just a thought.
What do you mean by "Jesus was walked on"?
I meant it metaphorically. 'Walked on' as in being tortured and died, although I think there were times that he had plans to go into the wilderness and pray and had to change his plans because the multitude followed him and interrupted him.
...In John 13 Jesus said a new commandment I give unto you. He said love one another "as I have loved you", not as you love yourself...
I guess it is questionable if we can legitimately say that you love God whom we have not seen if we don't love our neighbor whom we have seen. Just a thought...
Thanks for mentioning those passages, Johniam & Jeaniam.
John 13:34, 35 NIV
34 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
I John 4:19-21 NIV
19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
The MacArthur Study Biblecarries a similar line of thought in the comments on I John 4:
"4:21 This verse summarizes chap. 4 One cannot love God without first loving his fellow believer. A claim to love God is a delusion if not accompanied by unselfish love for other Christians."
Thought I'd post some notes from a few commentaries on this passage that I found interesting…
The following excerpts from The Gospel & Epistles of John by F.F. Bruce, on verses 19-21 go along the same lines:
"…In taking the initiative in loving us, He not only showed us how to love one another [cf.3:11] but He imparted the desire and the power to follow this example of His. Our Lord made it plain that the two great Old Testament commandments of love to God and love to one's neighbor are two sides of one coin [Mark 12:29-31; cf. Luke 10:27 f.], and when He said to His disciples in the upper room, 'If you love me, you will keep my commandments' [John 14:15], He laid down as His new and chief commandment that they should love one another as He loved them, so that everyone would know that they were truly His disciples [John 13:34 f.]…"
From The Believer's Bible Commentary, by William MacDonald, on I John 4:20;
"John emphasizes the futility of professing to love God while at the same time hating one's brother. As spokes get nearer to the center of the wheel, so they get nearer to one another. Thus, as we get closer to the Lord, the more we will love our fellow believers. Actually, we do not love the Lord a bit more than we love the humblest of His followers. John argues the impossibility of loving God whom we have not seen if we do not love our brothers whom we have seen."
From The New Bible Commentary: Revised, edited by D. Guthrie, J.A. Motyer, A.M. Stibbs, D.J. Wiseman, on I John 4:20:
"…Love to God is shown by love to man. If one is lacking so is the other. John goes so far as to say that if one does not love his brother he cannot love God. A distinction is made between the brother who is seen and God who is not. To affirm one's love for the unseen while failing to love the seen is to enter the realm of fantasy."
And from the Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, edited by Walter Elwell, on I John 4:20:
"Another test of love is set forth in verse 20. The phrase if anyone says introduces a false claim [see also 1:6, 8, 10; 2:4, 6, 9], here to love God while hating one's brother. Such a person is a liar about love [cf. about morality, 1:6, 10; 2:4; about doctrine, 2:22; 5:10]. One cannot love the invisible God [the harder thing and not easily tested] if he does not love God's visible image in a brother [the easier thing, easily tested]. Verse 21 completes this section by restating the command to love both God and one's brother as a single command [Mark 12:30-31]. To love God is to obey his command [3:23] to love him and others [Deut. 6:4; Lev. 19:18]."
Agape seems to have no boundaries. People need boundaries. Otherwise, we give and give and give, until we give ourselves away!
Hi everyone...I'm coming into this discussion a bit late and am finding it quite interesting.
Shifra welcome back to the Spot! This is quite the thread to open with.
My thoughts on this particular section of post is this...agape as you described it (quite aptly I might add) probably does not have boundries simply because it is of God. But as you also say people do need boundries. I think that Jesus gave those boundries to man when he said:
John 13:34, 35 NIV
34 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
"As I have loved you..." this is both a guildline and a boundry. As T-bone pointed out Jesus Christ was not made of milk toast. He had teeth and he did bite. He did not allow people to walk on him and I am certain that his patience was stretched pretty thin at times. He loved people and sometimes that means telling them something that they would rather not hear.
So in answer to the question "At what point does Agape step over the line into loving someone else MORE than one's self?" It never does. If it does then it is no longer agape because it is outside of "as I have loved you."
Johniam- thanks for reminding me of that verse. Way to bring me back around. But here is a "amok" type of question, Is this a revision of the "Love your neighbor as yourself" or is it a different commandment? It does seem to be isolating "disciples" from the rest of humanity. Any thoughts? Anyone?
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T-Bone
Thank you Shifra and Jeaniam...I like what everyone has posted on this thread - why start a new one when you've got this one doing a good job covering a lot of ground.
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JavaJane
Interesting to note that the two great commandments laid out by Jesus Christ both involved love (agapeo.)
But it does say to agapeo ourselves, too...
Never really thought about that before.
Jesus Christ is the only one who really walked the law perfectly, and he himself did not necessarily keep the letter of the law as described by the religious authorities of the time (at least in how they perceived that law.) His walk was based on the heart of the law, described in the two great commandements.
Interesting...
If we were able to agape ourselves, would we let people walk all over us?
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year2027
God first
Beloved Shifra
God loves you my dear friend
I would have to say yes we can love with Agape love but I say the key is there is no reason to love or it looks like a fight would be better
to love when its against reason or it can not be justifield by receiving love first
we love God because we can justifield loving God because he first loved us
so loving Agape way would being loving a person that only gives us hate
like Jesus Christ loving the people of his time even that they hated him to the point they killed him
can we ever love like Christ I think so but it takes time
I do not know if some one other wrote the same answer because I have not read all your loving replys you have received
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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T-Bone
I tend to think this agape type of love is far and above different from any caricatures of "Christian love" where we are rendered doormats for Jesus. Maybe there's something along the lines of what Bliss was saying in post # 17 – there being a self-preservation drive in us – to maintain and protect ourselves – I think that's a healthy thing…Thinking about the agape love exemplified in Jesus in the gospels – He doesn't hit me as a limp dishrag. Somehow He escaped an angry mob trying to throw Him off a cliff at the beginning of His ministry. Over zeal for His Father's house He – with maybe the frenzy of a madman – drove the moneychangers out! He looked around in anger at the religious leaders who frowned upon helping a man on the Sabbath.
…And last but not least, His death on the cross was NOT martyrdom but a sacrifice! He was not a victim but victorious! He allowed that to happen as the only way to redeem mankind…Which makes me think of His words about there being no greater love than laying down your life for another. Yes – there is an aspect of agape love that is capable of self-sacrifice – if need be. True heroes of this world that make the ultimate sacrifice for a noble cause will attest to that. I imagine most true heroes like that didn't harbor a death wish or view their life as something so cheap as to be squandered needlessly.
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bliss
Not to send this to the doctrinal section, so I will mention again how "MESSED UP" the WAY's definitions of everything is like WG said.....She also mentions this renewed mind trap...
The word ''renewed '' is in the passive voice. Which means it's done TO us.
It also is in the imparative mood...........which means, this is a command.........
There is one more, but I can't find my notes, but its being done ''continually''.
What are the conditions?
Surrender. Absolute submission to the ONE who is LOVE.
The ONE who is ALL POWERFUL (and able to love the unlovable).
The ONE who is able to ''turn the other cheek''.
The ONE who is able to ''forgive others''
The ONE who is able to ''Protect'' "persevere" and is "patient''.
I think we struggle with this topic and our imperfections because we focus on OUR ability to do it.
Phill 4:13 (another mis translation thanks to the Way) says
"I can do all things THROUGH CHRIST WHO STREGTHENS ME"!
It is through HIM that we can love with the pure agape love.
It is through HIM that we can ''do the works" that show the signs of a Christian life.
Its not about our works. Its not about our ability to get it done. It is about allowing HIM to do works through and in us.
Like T-bone mentioned, its about ''relationship''.
If we all allow this surrendering relationship to Christ to take hold of us, then, I'll make a bet we will be ''agape ing'' all over the place~~~~!!!
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another spot
I am coming in this one late and don't have it thought through like you guys do, but I will think about it more.
Just off the top of my head, tho. Jesus was summarizing the 10 commandments when he said love God love your neighbor. Some apply to loving God, some applying to loving your neighbor. If you go back and read them, they aren't all that difficult to do. The NT gives much more on the fine points. I think being born again gives us the ability to do a better job of it and we can always get better at it. I don't see the point in giving us something to do that we can't do. (Has that been said?)
Don't think I can go with a passive, Christ in me approach. Commandments involve obedience which would involve a conscience decision. Not much obedience to it otherwise and it wouldn't mean nearly so much to me as a giver or others as a receiver. On the other hand, if I make a conscience and deliberate decision to love you then that is really powerful and affects you way deep down.
Loving God as He loves us? That needs thinking. I can't think of a single thing I can do that God couldn't do better.
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templelady
"the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation"
That was another of VPW taking something and twisting it to fit so he could use it to furthuer his agenda.
If you instead say "the Love of God in manifestation" you have agape. That "renewed mind" inserted in there was the millstone around our necks. Everytime we failed to "bless" leadership we were told to renew our minds. Every wrong we did was due to lack of a renewed mind. This was at the rank and file level-- I cannot begin to comprehend what it was like at the corps level.
Loving your neighbor as yourself -- means extending agape love
It means, when your neighbors are having a party and the reverberating music is making the migraine you already had feel like Gimli son of Gloin and his entire family are mining for mithril just behind your left eye, before heading out the door you take a moment to think how you would want to be approached regarding the problem if the shoe was on the other foot INSTEAD of just going over, in your pain wracked state, yelling at them to "Turn it DOwn!!"
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Jeaniam
You make a number of very good points. I also have asked God to help me by purifying or cleaning my heart and He has as it says in Psalm 51:10-12--"Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me. Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me. Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free (willing) spirit". We have been taught that some of those things are not available in this administration but there have been many times in my life when I asked God to restore me to the great joy I first felt when I realized I was born again of incorruptible seed. It's very true that we need to examine our 'differences' with other groups and make sure that we are not quibbling over semantics or a situation where both groups are saying the same thing but it sounds odd because we're not used to hearing it phrased a different way.
Great post, T-Bone. I wish I'd said that.
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caribousam
Paul explains in Corinthians what agape is. But as is often the case, words just don't convey
the real sense of what it really is.
As a Christian, I have thought about it a lot myself. Unconditional love is not all that hard to
do. Or is it ? What's more difficult is trying to figure out what the motives are. Sometimes I will think
about motives too much, which can get me sidetracked and into a place where I do nothing.
At times I have "felt" agape in me - that sounds weird - but I have had at times this really excellent
inspirational type agape love to do something, or pray for someone, or worship God in a way
that comes from deep in the heart someplace. Getting connected to God in this way is very cool.
"Love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" somehow sounds so cold and clinical. too many
words, not enough life.
-CS
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caribousam
Interesting point about the renewed mind. But I can see how the complete definition of agape
could include the renewed mind part. I just don't know if the agape definition was put
together by VPW in a way to enhance some twisted agenda...I hate to think (and don't believe it....
maybe i am just too naive) that I once fellowshipped with people who were
such snaking connivers
The love of God in manifestation in the renewed mind to me sort of connotes
that there is a difference between loving God from a renewed mind as opposed to from a mind
that is not being renewed. It could then be said that someone who is not a believer cannot
have - in a Biblical sense - a mind that is being renewed, and therefore cannot really love
God in an agape fashion. It could be then also said that - in the spirit of "if you don't know me then
you don't know the Father" - that someone without holy spirit, unsaved, cannot truly love
in the agape way.
Still, that "love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation" is a mouthful, and sounds kind
of cold and clinical.
Loving your neighbor and God as yourself sounds more do-able.
Have a great weekend! Peace and love from CS !
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templelady
If someone who is not a believer cannot have a mind that is being renewed, how is it that 1000's of unbelievers are converted to Christianity every month all over the world?? They could not be converted unless there mind was being renewed so that the Gospel could take hold.
And to say that a non-believer cannot love their neighbor as they wish them selves to be loved, that they cannot treat their neighbor with the same kind and caring considerations that they would want to be treated flies in the face of common sense. THere are thousand of non-believers who everday exemplify Christian virtue while not being Christians
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WordWolf
I think some leaders (vpw was one) are less than keen about encouraging a relationship with the Lord
Jesus Christ-
because that takes away from their own unstated goal to be lord INSTEAD.
Heck, my own reluctance to do so might have a lot to do with my own thoughts about being "lord".....
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Jeaniam
That's not really what caribousam said. I think that the point cs was trying to make is that you can't really love with agape without having been born again, and having received holy spirit. Agape seems to go beyond loving your neighbor as you would wish yourself to be loved into loving someone when there is absolutely nothing in it for yourself.
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T-Bone
It's funny how you read something and another thought pops into your head. When I read your post for some reason, a line from PFAL popped into my head. It's VPW's litmus test: You tell me what you think of Jesus Christ and I'll tell you how far you're going to go spiritually…And you know me – with a bad habit of trying to tie things together
…This may be totally off the wall but here goes…
An expert in the law asked Jesus which is the greatest commandment in the law. Jesus' answer is a little out of the ordinary – for the expert asked which ONE was the greatest and Jesus said there were TWO:
Matthew 22:34-40 NIV
34 Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. 35 One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question:
36 "Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?" 37 Jesus replied: " 'Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.'[b] 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[c] 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments."
It seems like there's a lot going on between the two great commandments…intertwined somehow…So maybe VPW's litmus test is more of an intellectual approach. But I think a focus on the two great commandments might be a more practical method of self-evaluation. What does the way I treat my neighbor say about how much I love God?...Does that even make sense?…Just thought I'd throw that out there…I'm just fascinated how inexhaustibly rich and deep the two great commandments are – they've come up on a few threads lately.
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Shifra
Jeaniam,
You got pretty close to the description of Agape - as I understand it - when you said it was like "loving someone else when there is nothing in it for you".
That's the concept of Agape I was thinking about, when I started this thread.
If, in fact, there's nothing in it (no benefits) for the person who is doing the Agape'ing, then, at what point is that person giving too much? At what point is that person allowing themself to be used? At what point does Agape become damaging or dangerous to the person performing it? At what point does Agape step over the line into loving someone else MORE than one's self?
... Because when this happens, then the second commandment is violated. The second commandment does NOT say "love your neighbor MORE THAN yourself"; it says AS yourself.
"AS" means "the same as" or "equally". Not "more than".
Agape seems to have no boundaries. People need boundaries. Otherwise, we give and give and give, until we give ourselves away!
God, on the other hand, He can handle this kind of love.
But us earthlings ... well, the ones I know, who have tried to walk the talk of Agape ... have indeed gotten walked ... on. Crushed, to be more specific.
Shifra
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templelady
Loving you neighbor as yourself does not only refer to your literal neighbor but to the fact that we are all neighbors to each other in the viewpoint of the Almighty. From that view there is often nothing in it for you --in point of fact there is often nothing in it for you even if you know the person.
And I again, submit that it is possible to exhibit Agape love without being "born again". We are all the children of God, and as such we all have the inate ability to love as He loves. Being "born again" refers to accepting Jesus Christ as the Son of God and His atonement for us. It is elitist to claim that those not "born again" cannot exhibit agape especially when we note that when Christ spoke these words He was addressing a mixed group of individuals BEFORE Gesthemene and the crucifixtion. He was telling them that that kind of love was possible right then--not at some point in the future.
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johniam
Actually, the second command was changed. In John 13 Jesus said a new commandment I give unto you. He said love one another "as I have loved you", not as you love yourself. He had just finished washing their feet AND he didn't say that until Judas left. Interesting.
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Bolshevik
I was gonna say that. But then I thought it obvious.
When I left HQ, I would witness this point to folks. . . Nobody cared.
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Jeaniam
Well, obviously, Jesus Christ got walked...on. Crushed, to be more specific. And obviously, he gave and gave and gave, more than any human being ever did before or since. He sacrificed his whole life for our good. He never did one self-seeking thing and he gave up all the things any normal man wants. He never married, never had children, probably never knew the release of having sex, and ended his life in torture and cruelty that were unequalled before or since. It seems to me that the definition that TWI developed for agape is probably accurate 'the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation' no matter how cold it may seem. Agape love starts in the mind or as an act of the will, and is not an emotion, although it may issue forth or manifest itself as an emotion. I am not sure about the part about 'loving when there is absolutely nothing in it for yourself'; even Christ was apparently motivated by something being in it for him. In Hebrews 12:2 it says that Jesus Christ endured the cross for the joy that was set before him, and despised the shame, etc. I'm still thinking over the 'renewed' mind and trying to see about Biblical backing for that.
And, templelady, unfortunately, in this day and time, we (the whole human race) are not all 'childen of God', but being a 'child of God' requires belief in Romans 10:9&10. This may be 'elitist' as you say, but than God must be an 'elitist' since He is the one who set it up that way.
And, Bolshevik, I am sorry about the indifference of people in the past, but we care NOW.
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Bolshevik
What do you mean by "Jesus was walked on"?
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Jeaniam
I guess it is questionable if we can legitimately say that you love God whom we have not seen if we don't love our neighbor whom we have seen. Just a thought.
I meant it metaphorically. 'Walked on' as in being tortured and died, although I think there were times that he had plans to go into the wilderness and pray and had to change his plans because the multitude followed him and interrupted him.
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Bolshevik
okay, I just thought he knew what he did, he had compassion, his suffering was a decision of his own.
(maybe I misunderstand, my apologies)
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T-Bone
Thanks for mentioning those passages, Johniam & Jeaniam.
John 13:34, 35 NIV
34 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
I John 4:19-21 NIV
19 We love because he first loved us. 20 If anyone says, "I love God," yet hates his brother, he is a liar. For anyone who does not love his brother, whom he has seen, cannot love God, whom he has not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Whoever loves God must also love his brother.
The MacArthur Study Bible carries a similar line of thought in the comments on I John 4:
"4:21 This verse summarizes chap. 4 One cannot love God without first loving his fellow believer. A claim to love God is a delusion if not accompanied by unselfish love for other Christians."
Thought I'd post some notes from a few commentaries on this passage that I found interesting…
The following excerpts from The Gospel & Epistles of John by F.F. Bruce, on verses 19-21 go along the same lines:
"…In taking the initiative in loving us, He not only showed us how to love one another [cf.3:11] but He imparted the desire and the power to follow this example of His. Our Lord made it plain that the two great Old Testament commandments of love to God and love to one's neighbor are two sides of one coin [Mark 12:29-31; cf. Luke 10:27 f.], and when He said to His disciples in the upper room, 'If you love me, you will keep my commandments' [John 14:15], He laid down as His new and chief commandment that they should love one another as He loved them, so that everyone would know that they were truly His disciples [John 13:34 f.]…"
From The Believer's Bible Commentary, by William MacDonald, on I John 4:20;
"John emphasizes the futility of professing to love God while at the same time hating one's brother. As spokes get nearer to the center of the wheel, so they get nearer to one another. Thus, as we get closer to the Lord, the more we will love our fellow believers. Actually, we do not love the Lord a bit more than we love the humblest of His followers. John argues the impossibility of loving God whom we have not seen if we do not love our brothers whom we have seen."
From The New Bible Commentary: Revised, edited by D. Guthrie, J.A. Motyer, A.M. Stibbs, D.J. Wiseman, on I John 4:20:
"…Love to God is shown by love to man. If one is lacking so is the other. John goes so far as to say that if one does not love his brother he cannot love God. A distinction is made between the brother who is seen and God who is not. To affirm one's love for the unseen while failing to love the seen is to enter the realm of fantasy."
And from the Evangelical Commentary on the Bible, edited by Walter Elwell, on I John 4:20:
"Another test of love is set forth in verse 20. The phrase if anyone says introduces a false claim [see also 1:6, 8, 10; 2:4, 6, 9], here to love God while hating one's brother. Such a person is a liar about love [cf. about morality, 1:6, 10; 2:4; about doctrine, 2:22; 5:10]. One cannot love the invisible God [the harder thing and not easily tested] if he does not love God's visible image in a brother [the easier thing, easily tested]. Verse 21 completes this section by restating the command to love both God and one's brother as a single command [Mark 12:30-31]. To love God is to obey his command [3:23] to love him and others [Deut. 6:4; Lev. 19:18]."
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Eyesopen
Hi everyone...I'm coming into this discussion a bit late and am finding it quite interesting.
Shifra welcome back to the Spot! This is quite the thread to open with.
My thoughts on this particular section of post is this...agape as you described it (quite aptly I might add) probably does not have boundries simply because it is of God. But as you also say people do need boundries. I think that Jesus gave those boundries to man when he said:
John 13:34, 35 NIV
34 A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. 35 By this all men will know that you are my disciples, if you love one another.
"As I have loved you..." this is both a guildline and a boundry. As T-bone pointed out Jesus Christ was not made of milk toast. He had teeth and he did bite. He did not allow people to walk on him and I am certain that his patience was stretched pretty thin at times. He loved people and sometimes that means telling them something that they would rather not hear.
So in answer to the question "At what point does Agape step over the line into loving someone else MORE than one's self?" It never does. If it does then it is no longer agape because it is outside of "as I have loved you."
Johniam- thanks for reminding me of that verse. Way to bring me back around. But here is a "amok" type of question, Is this a revision of the "Love your neighbor as yourself" or is it a different commandment? It does seem to be isolating "disciples" from the rest of humanity. Any thoughts? Anyone?
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