It is obvious you do not know chapter and verse... so many records in fact the entire bible is written about good and evil , God is love Satan is hate.
it is always a choice to chose which means of acting out you believe is right . All people are capable of both indeed.
I guess you would have alot of problems with what God chose to do with people over and over records of destroying and defeating the enemy, in some extremely brutal forms, and some punishments for sin against God that caused great misery and harm to His own people.
The final being the very Death of a Son that always obeyed God. that is Gods plan to redeem all of us.
sounds abusive to me, to have a man who always loved (did the Father will which is love) die a horrid public mocking death. such was and is the Agape difference in love one who would lay down his very life.
Love as defined in the bible is not going to hurt anyone , but the battle the enemy the other choice we have can and does hurt everyone who decides to manifest that abiltity .
When Paul sat in a stinkin jail cell , Gods will was done when the jailor was able to believe in Jesus christ as the Saviour of mankind!
maybe Paul thought it should have been the nearby resort hotel with all the fixin BUT God didnt, and the obedience of His voice allowed Paul to witness to a man who can now have the victory over death with the rest of the saints.
i read the bible storys and i often say WahOOOOO look at this story what an adventure what a trial what strength and endurance to obey God that charactor had!
it is written to inspire what we may need to get through a life filled with many temptations to not look to the Rock of Jesus for answers. it is a christians history of Gods people.
it isnt a "balanced" life a follower of Christ is called to . it is a faith filled life.
and please to not include me in your group think statement of "we didnt get very far with chapter and verse" the bible is very dear to me and has gotten me this far in life praise God for the knowledge and wisodm of His words written.
I thought I was pretty clear in my last post about 'About The Way' experiences with what has been labeled 'agape' in the lives of some exway. I was not referring to pond or pond's life, which I know very little about.
Chapter and verse didn't get 'us' -the extwi who saw abuse called 'love' -very far in TWI, pond.
And I wasn't aware that this discussion required chapter and verse of the participants.
I think the reason the agape "love" you make reference to while in the way didnt work or make a difference in life is because it most probably was not that at all.
folks can call whatever they like love and put fancy titles on it even.. How i recognize love is truly in the fruits it bears, is it kind is it all what the bible says it is to be ?
and i have a spirt within that discerns and helps .
Bramble... Great definition of Agape. And yes, you can think for yourself, and speak for yourself, without having to qualify it by quoting chapter and verse. Amazing, isn't it?
I don't think any one has to argue with God, or accept a doctrine they see as objectionable just because others believe it is the right doctrine. There are plenty of Christians who don't believe in the 'born again' doctrine, after all.
The way I see it, making agape, an active love, into something undefined, complicated and super spiritual, opens doors for abuse in certain situations. How many of us were taught that 'mark and avoid' was the loving thing to do. Some were taught that divorce or tossing a family member out on the street was really 'love' of the spiritual variety. Acts of destruction were called love of the highest order. Teaching children that their ex wife or exhusband parent was 'possessed' was love...
I think agape ( which I believe can be acheived by all humans, not just certain ones) would be a love that benefits both the giver and the receiver--not a love where one sacrifices all they are to anothers benefit, not a love where one benefits and another is destroyed. Something balanced.
Of course I have no 'chapter and verse' for my thoughts, no Greek words--but that doesn't seem to have gotten us very far anyway.
I agree that agape is not a love where one benefits and another is destroyed. Even Jesus Christ (the greatest example of agape that lived) was benefitted. God seated him at His own right hand. That sounds like a pretty good reward to me.
Yes, you can think for yourself, and should, but when what you think cannot be backed up by the Bible or is in direct contradiction with it, then what you have is pretty flimsy.
Jeaniam-- you have your opinion about the Bible, I have mine. I am not a Christian and so will not be offering Bible perspectives. This is not a Christian forum so you will run into other perspectives now and then.
I rather enjoy a spirit filled walk that can recognize God or a higher power that gives one hope.
the bible is written so we can learn from it but all the "happenings" and storys are not written in it John in REV, says their is not enough books in the entire world to handle all what the story unfolds for us.
this does leave alot of room for the confortor or the spirit to continue to teach our soul about who and what God and us mean .
Jeaniam-- you have your opinion about the Bible, I have mine. I am not a Christian and so will not be offering Bible perspectives. This is not a Christian forum so you will run into other perspectives now and then.
That may well be, but I fail to see why you're getting involved in a discussion of agape, since it is a Christian concept and is mentioned in the Bible if you're not a Christian and possibly don't believe in the Bible. It may be that this particular thread would have been better opened on the doctrinal forum.
This should not be interpreted as an attempt on my part to tell you that you are unwelcome just an attempt to point out a certain amount of illogic.
I posted because I had something to say. Others don't seem to be offended.
The doctrinal forum is not just for Christian doctrine or Biblical Research. I post down there all the time. So do other nonChristians.
I will not be intimidated into leaving a thread because some folks don't care for what I post ( you are not the first who is offended to post along side unbeliever). It is a open discussion forum, which means people will discuss, and often have widely different ideas on the same subject.
You can always use the IGNORE feature to avoid my posts.
I wanted to add that Shifra, who started this thread, was very kind and helpful to me & mine during a really ugly time. I wanted to make sure her thread got replies!
Yes, you can think for yourself, and should, but when what you think cannot be backed up by the Bible or is in direct contradiction with it, then what you have is pretty flimsy.
Only in the context of belief in the Bible as the only rule of faith & practice, i.e. "The" Word of God. Bramble does not believe that. One might argue that limiting ones thoughts to a 2000+ year old book is pretty flimsy as well. One might, but I'm not :B)
That may well be, but I fail to see why you're getting involved in a discussion of agape, since it is a Christian concept and is mentioned in the Bible
The word is mentioned in the bible and is a Christian concept, but not exclusively. Or did you think that the word was used first by the biblical writers? And isn't their a verse in I John that mentions loving darkness? And love is translated from agape?
if you're not a Christian and possibly don't believe in the Bible. It may be that this particular thread would have been better opened on the doctrinal forum.
maybe, but what's that got to do with the discussion at hand?
This should not be interpreted as an attempt on my part to tell you that you are unwelcome just an attempt to point out a certain amount of illogic.
There is no illogic in Bramble's participation in this discussion that I can see.
I posted because I had something to say. Others don't seem to be offended.
The doctrinal forum is not just for Christian doctrine or Biblical Research. I post down there all the time. So do other nonChristians.
I will not be intimidated into leaving a thread because some folks don't care for what I post ( you are not the first who is offended to post along side unbeliever). It is a open discussion forum, which means people will discuss, and often have widely different ideas on the same subject.
You can always use the IGNORE feature to avoid my posts.
I am not attempting to intimidate you or anyone else, nor is it a matter that I don't care for what you post. I have checked two secular dictionaries for their definition of agape and between them they contain seven definitions of agape and all of them contain the word 'Christian'. I am still not sure that I understand the logic behind someone who claims to not be a Christian getting involved with a thread that even some secular sources consider a 'Christian' topic. I don't really desire to use the ignore feature in regards to your posts, since at least some of your posts make good sense.
And, no, Oakspear, I don't claim to have done anything close to an exhaustive word study. Interesting point about 1 John.
I have been away from GreaseSpot for awhile, seeking my fortune and dreaming new dreams. (You knew me before as Xena and before that as Schwaigers). I needed to come back to get your input on some thoughts I've had about the concept of "Agape", the messed-up lessons we learned from TWI, and how this relatively small piece of misinformation has impacted all of us.
Nice to be home.
Xena was an angry warrior woman, and with that identity, I could express my recent divorced self. Not really me. Schwaigers was the married name, under which I would post things without assistance from my other half, even though I made it look like it came from both of us. Also a facade. Shifra is me, the midwife, the mom. You guys know me.
Enough preface and re-intro. Here's my latest curiosity:
TWI taught us that Agape was "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household". Yuk. The rest of the world said it meant "unconditional love". Either way, I am now wondering if Agape is or has ever been HUMANLY possible. I propose that it is a form of love which only God can actually ... do. Sorta comparable to Creation.
Could it be that for us to even attempt such love is arrogant and presumptuous?
Could it be that making such attempts puts us into the role of a martyr, tolerating and accepting fellow Christians (and others) to the point of damaging or endangering ourselves?
To me it seems that this level of love far exceeds the love of self, and as Jesus taught we are to love our neighbors AS OURSELVES. Agape implies self-sacrifice - and beyond.
And what about TWI itself? Certainly they did not practice Agape. Any hint of love that they may have offered was totally conditional.
But if we are indeed NOT practicing Agape, then are we as Paul writes, nothing more than a "sounding brass or a tinkling cimbal"? Hmmmmmm. Well, brass and cimbals aint so bad. Add a couple of guitars and ya got yourself a good rock band. Talk to me.
Shifra
Dear Shifra:
Greeting in the Name of Jesus Christ.
Well, I studied that very question that you raise about, "Agape"...this term used in the Greek translates in to the Latin Word, Caritas from which we get the english word, Charity.
Form my studies I have concluded that Agape Love, is one of 5 words translated as Love in the Scriptures.
God Loves us with all 5 types of Love. But Perfect Love, Agape was not availble until the Incarnations of God as man,,, Jesus Christ. When one become part of the Body of Christ one takes on the Christ and by becoming more and more like Him, we are able to Love and give of our selves to God fully and to Others, not justfellow believers but all mankind. "God so loved the world", Agape yes, is unconditional love, but it is a Cathartic love, it is putting others before self. The other part of agape love is that is a gift from God, and it is a direct diliberate decision of the Will.
Golly, this thread is not about me, Jeaniam. I don't know why it would be your business why I would want to post on any thread on GSC. ??? This is bizarre.
Many people, even non Christians, are interested in the topics of love.
As far as I'm concerned, this little derailment of the thread is over. If you want to continue questioning me about my reasons, take it to PM.
words like illogic shut down the discussion and kind of insult another.
I know christian do NOT readily accept any knowledge or information that does not contain bible verses or story or even remote twisted reference of some sort.
word is easy dismissed as wrong because the base line is the truth of the word.
and who can agure with God almighty?
that is how I got involved with twi that whole line of thinking, which is NOT thiniking at all just eating something without regard to what it may taste like .
the bible says to make the truth of it your own.
you will not and CAN not do that step unless you think. and you are NOT thinking if every story besides what is chapter and verse is just plain wrong and to be dismissed.
when you think and come to a conclusion that belongs to you, the fight inside has ended and no longer can bible verses generate strive confusion and hurt feelings.
because it belongs to you. you take ownership for what you think.
and that for me is how Jesus Christ lives everyday for me.
the irratation comes when you feel you have to prove an idea, and the things we agrue about often happen to be the very thoughts that do nOT bring peace in our life in fact they are thoughts we need to defend because somone can and do erode in our mind how we can trust or "know" them. So truly illogical feeling of anger and resentment and often hate become involved . not Gods will for anyone really.
it is unbelief. and using the bible as a bullet to hurt another and not the LORDS style at all.
God is loving .
Jesus is a patient guy and He understands people better than we do.
jeaniam
I love you.
consider maybe your motive in this discussion is it to right? or is to love another? is it to prove the truth well that says to me you must have it exclusively and without regard to anothers point of view. that seldom will work with a people such as we are.
A disciple of christ does not need to DEFEND the truth, He defends us . Your not Jesus christ jeaniam . He is our brother and He asks us to love one another.
I like your posts very much. I sugggest when you feel the emotions of greater than" them" because you KNOW what the bible says (trust me i do know as well) it may be bible worship, and idol used to hurt another.
it is a sly trick and effective amoung religous types it is what ultimately succeeded in putting Jesus through a trial in which He gave HIS life.
He could have had a resucue and showed them who was the TRUTH right then and there, He didnt chose that path.. He gave it up and obeyed His fathers will. and died.
because He loves that much.
such as HE is.
Of course we do not sway with every wind of doctrine, but we do not live in a vacum either, the primary call of a christian is to love another, and it aint as easy as it sounds it truly isnt abuot the other guy it is all about our own thoughts and thinking and ability to maintain a mind that can obey Gods will.
keep posting, and fight the good fight dear BUT we do not fight people honey we love them .
When it comes to exploring my own faith one of the things I really enjoy about GSC is the input by non-Christians. Sometimes a post will hit me like a ton of bricks – just because of its resonance…it doesn't matter who posted it. I imagine the disciples may have learned a thing or two about faith from a woman who was not even Jewish in the following passage:
Matthew 15:21-28 NIV
21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
he didnt take offense in fact it was a real blessing to HIM to hear a woman speak truth!
She was far from intimidated because he had those disciples complaining, she was a strong lady to say "yeah well (maybe so) BUT Jesus the thing is even the dogs eat from their Masters table!
she was saying so what "If your really a Saviour YOU CAN DO IT!
it impressed Jesus very very much he liked her attitude even after he called her a dog!! lolol what a Guy he was honest and called it like it was in how people think. But knew God so well as a LOVER of us all.
where as the disciples fell into we shouldnt because she doesnt deserve it and besides she isnt one of us and she has a very big mouth and shows no respect to us because we stand with the Saviour.
Jesus says it is all about the faith HE CAN do it, so He did and does and that is Why He is my friend.
I don't think any one has to argue with God, or accept a doctrine they see as objectionable just because others believe it is the right doctrine. There are plenty of Christians who don't believe in the 'born again' doctrine, after all.
The way I see it, making agape, an active love, into something undefined, complicated and super spiritual, opens doors for abuse in certain situations. How many of us were taught that 'mark and avoid' was the loving thing to do. Some were taught that divorce or tossing a family member out on the street was really 'love' of the spiritual variety. Acts of destruction were called love of the highest order. Teaching children that their ex wife or exhusband parent was 'possessed' was love...
I think agape ( which I believe can be acheived by all humans, not just certain ones) would be a love that benefits both the giver and the receiver--not a love where one sacrifices all they are to anothers benefit, not a love where one benefits and another is destroyed. Something balanced.
Of course I have no 'chapter and verse' for my thoughts, no Greek words--but that doesn't seem to have gotten us very far anyway.
Yes, there are, but Jesus told Nicodemus that 'Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'. The name of this thread is agape or arrogance. Where thinking about the Word (Bible), which all of us do, may become arrogance is when we put what we think above what God says clearly. I do respect some of your posts and learn from them, but you don't really have any basis to be sure that what you think is right or wrong. Elevating what people think over what God says opens the door for abuse in many situations. It seems to me that was where TWI fell short; they decided what they thought, and then went looking for Bible verses that seemed to bear out what they had already decided to believe. I also enjoy the passage that T-Bone quoted yesterday but the woman in that passage argued with Jesus logically and even, to a certain extent. using 'it is written' as her authority. She didn't just go up to him and tell him he was wrong without having something concrete to back her up. I think your definition of agape has some points that are fairly accurate, outside of your contention that all people can attain agape, and I enjoyed that poem that JavaJane posted but there again I recognize the elements of truth it contains by comparing it to 1 Corinthians 13, and I think JavaJane did, also.
Oh, dang it, I did it AGAIN. This is once again Jean, not John. I guess we need his and her computers. Sorry, all.
Assuming that one has the correct understanding of the Bible hits me as being a little arrogant - and is reminiscent of the TWI thought process. I could list a number of biblical topics that are guaranteed to generate arguments among some Christian folk – each believing they are right based on their understanding of "clear" Scriptures. My thoughts behind what I said in post # 119 have a lot to do with the critical thinking process – of which a core element is intellectual humility. Maybe theonly safe assumptions are the beliefs that I don't have all the answers, that a faulty thought may be present, and that my point of view shapes my perception of reality.
I know myself enough to realize at times – under the subtle influence of my belief system – I am prone to loading an assumption into the thinking process. I'm not saying that is bad necessarily – but the more aware I am of things going on in the background the better I am at verifying my intellectual standards. I don't think there's anything wrong with reading the Bible like you would any other book. And I become very hesitant when someone starts spiritualizing Scripture for the "deeper meaning." I think most non-Christians on GSC fare a lot better at applying logic and hermeneutic principles with the Bible than most TWI folk . An active thinking process is a wonderful thing - to which most ex-TWI folk will agree! That is why I really do appreciate hearing from the non-Christian folks at GSC…whether it's about a passage in the Bible or a universal thing like love. There is value in another viewpoint and truth in other belief systems – and it's fun exploring it all!
Regarding agape and non-Christians – I'm of the opinion agape is something all humans are capable of. I do not find anything in Scripture to indicate otherwise.
The 'deeper meaning' of agape is what I saw so much of in TWI. This is love. Huh? It wasn't love, it was arrogance in many instances. Oh, but you're not spiritual or mature enough to understand. Trust me, I know...
I'm wary of people who have super spiritual knowledge of love but treat others...not well, because that is how you love someone like that. Its allowed. God told me it would wake them up. It just looks extreme and cruel. Trust me...
Even on this thread we have different definitions of what agape is.
Some say it is love that all humans are capable of.
Some say only born again Christians can love agape.
Some say it is the Love of God in manifestation in the household.
Perhaps the point of the poem was that another human, in a different belief system, far away from Chrsitian and Bible sources, seemed to know something about love.
Nobody ever said non Christians weren't welcome here; in fact it looks to me like Bramble is iimplying that Jean's Christian pov is not welcome if anything. Nobody said that non Christians cannot love; in fact it looks to me like the title of this thread is implying that non Christians are most likely to be motivated by love, and Christians are most likely to be motivated by arrogance, if anything. Talk about bizarre.
Love is like precious metals; its purity comes out when it is tested, or tried. The world hates God, yet God so loved the world that He gave, right? Our kids try our patience. Yet we love them, right? Certainly natural man has the capacity to love, but not as full as the man of body, soul, and spirit. Biblically, agape is an extention of natural man's capacity to love as much as faith is an extention of natural believing. The spirit of God within us gives us more ability to love than we had before, otherwise Christ died in vain. That's what Christians believe.
There is ample biblical documentation that it is possible for a Christian (one who is born again) to not walk in love, but walk in darkness. Christians have a spiritual adversary who wants to trip us up and cause us to fail to walk in love. Look at all the crap that got thrown in Jesus' face. He couldn't even go out in public without all these idiots gravitating toward him. Yet he loved; sometimes it was nice sometimes it wasn't, but he's the one guy who never failed to walk in love.
Non Christians have no spiritual adversary trying to trip them up. They can often appear like the coolest people you ever met...UNTIL confronted with the word of God. Then their nasty side can come out.
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pond
It is obvious you do not know chapter and verse... so many records in fact the entire bible is written about good and evil , God is love Satan is hate.
it is always a choice to chose which means of acting out you believe is right . All people are capable of both indeed.
I guess you would have alot of problems with what God chose to do with people over and over records of destroying and defeating the enemy, in some extremely brutal forms, and some punishments for sin against God that caused great misery and harm to His own people.
The final being the very Death of a Son that always obeyed God. that is Gods plan to redeem all of us.
sounds abusive to me, to have a man who always loved (did the Father will which is love) die a horrid public mocking death. such was and is the Agape difference in love one who would lay down his very life.
Love as defined in the bible is not going to hurt anyone , but the battle the enemy the other choice we have can and does hurt everyone who decides to manifest that abiltity .
When Paul sat in a stinkin jail cell , Gods will was done when the jailor was able to believe in Jesus christ as the Saviour of mankind!
maybe Paul thought it should have been the nearby resort hotel with all the fixin BUT God didnt, and the obedience of His voice allowed Paul to witness to a man who can now have the victory over death with the rest of the saints.
i read the bible storys and i often say WahOOOOO look at this story what an adventure what a trial what strength and endurance to obey God that charactor had!
it is written to inspire what we may need to get through a life filled with many temptations to not look to the Rock of Jesus for answers. it is a christians history of Gods people.
it isnt a "balanced" life a follower of Christ is called to . it is a faith filled life.
and please to not include me in your group think statement of "we didnt get very far with chapter and verse" the bible is very dear to me and has gotten me this far in life praise God for the knowledge and wisodm of His words written.
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Bramble
I thought I was pretty clear in my last post about 'About The Way' experiences with what has been labeled 'agape' in the lives of some exway. I was not referring to pond or pond's life, which I know very little about.
Chapter and verse didn't get 'us' -the extwi who saw abuse called 'love' -very far in TWI, pond.
And I wasn't aware that this discussion required chapter and verse of the participants.
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pond
Im not aware it requires it either.
I think the reason the agape "love" you make reference to while in the way didnt work or make a difference in life is because it most probably was not that at all.
folks can call whatever they like love and put fancy titles on it even.. How i recognize love is truly in the fruits it bears, is it kind is it all what the bible says it is to be ?
and i have a spirt within that discerns and helps .
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Shifra
Bramble... Great definition of Agape. And yes, you can think for yourself, and speak for yourself, without having to qualify it by quoting chapter and verse. Amazing, isn't it?
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Jeaniam
I agree that agape is not a love where one benefits and another is destroyed. Even Jesus Christ (the greatest example of agape that lived) was benefitted. God seated him at His own right hand. That sounds like a pretty good reward to me.
Yes, you can think for yourself, and should, but when what you think cannot be backed up by the Bible or is in direct contradiction with it, then what you have is pretty flimsy.
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Bramble
Jeaniam-- you have your opinion about the Bible, I have mine. I am not a Christian and so will not be offering Bible perspectives. This is not a Christian forum so you will run into other perspectives now and then.
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pond
Ienjoy bible storys, i do not worship them tho.
I rather enjoy a spirit filled walk that can recognize God or a higher power that gives one hope.
the bible is written so we can learn from it but all the "happenings" and storys are not written in it John in REV, says their is not enough books in the entire world to handle all what the story unfolds for us.
this does leave alot of room for the confortor or the spirit to continue to teach our soul about who and what God and us mean .
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rascal
Bramble, your well thought through perspectives are appreciated.
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Jeaniam
That may well be, but I fail to see why you're getting involved in a discussion of agape, since it is a Christian concept and is mentioned in the Bible if you're not a Christian and possibly don't believe in the Bible. It may be that this particular thread would have been better opened on the doctrinal forum.
This should not be interpreted as an attempt on my part to tell you that you are unwelcome just an attempt to point out a certain amount of illogic.
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Bramble
I posted because I had something to say. Others don't seem to be offended.
The doctrinal forum is not just for Christian doctrine or Biblical Research. I post down there all the time. So do other nonChristians.
I will not be intimidated into leaving a thread because some folks don't care for what I post ( you are not the first who is offended to post along side unbeliever). It is a open discussion forum, which means people will discuss, and often have widely different ideas on the same subject.
You can always use the IGNORE feature to avoid my posts.
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Bramble
I wanted to add that Shifra, who started this thread, was very kind and helpful to me & mine during a really ugly time. I wanted to make sure her thread got replies!
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Oakspear
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Jeaniam
I am not attempting to intimidate you or anyone else, nor is it a matter that I don't care for what you post. I have checked two secular dictionaries for their definition of agape and between them they contain seven definitions of agape and all of them contain the word 'Christian'. I am still not sure that I understand the logic behind someone who claims to not be a Christian getting involved with a thread that even some secular sources consider a 'Christian' topic. I don't really desire to use the ignore feature in regards to your posts, since at least some of your posts make good sense.
And, no, Oakspear, I don't claim to have done anything close to an exhaustive word study. Interesting point about 1 John.
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JoePascha
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Bramble
Golly, this thread is not about me, Jeaniam. I don't know why it would be your business why I would want to post on any thread on GSC. ??? This is bizarre.
Many people, even non Christians, are interested in the topics of love.
As far as I'm concerned, this little derailment of the thread is over. If you want to continue questioning me about my reasons, take it to PM.
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Oakspear
Here's a definition of agape that does not include the word "Christian":
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/agape
And a discussion of pre-Christian uses of the word:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agape
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pond
words like illogic shut down the discussion and kind of insult another.
I know christian do NOT readily accept any knowledge or information that does not contain bible verses or story or even remote twisted reference of some sort.
word is easy dismissed as wrong because the base line is the truth of the word.
and who can agure with God almighty?
that is how I got involved with twi that whole line of thinking, which is NOT thiniking at all just eating something without regard to what it may taste like .
the bible says to make the truth of it your own.
you will not and CAN not do that step unless you think. and you are NOT thinking if every story besides what is chapter and verse is just plain wrong and to be dismissed.
when you think and come to a conclusion that belongs to you, the fight inside has ended and no longer can bible verses generate strive confusion and hurt feelings.
because it belongs to you. you take ownership for what you think.
and that for me is how Jesus Christ lives everyday for me.
the irratation comes when you feel you have to prove an idea, and the things we agrue about often happen to be the very thoughts that do nOT bring peace in our life in fact they are thoughts we need to defend because somone can and do erode in our mind how we can trust or "know" them. So truly illogical feeling of anger and resentment and often hate become involved . not Gods will for anyone really.
it is unbelief. and using the bible as a bullet to hurt another and not the LORDS style at all.
God is loving .
Jesus is a patient guy and He understands people better than we do.
jeaniam
I love you.
consider maybe your motive in this discussion is it to right? or is to love another? is it to prove the truth well that says to me you must have it exclusively and without regard to anothers point of view. that seldom will work with a people such as we are.
A disciple of christ does not need to DEFEND the truth, He defends us . Your not Jesus christ jeaniam . He is our brother and He asks us to love one another.
I like your posts very much. I sugggest when you feel the emotions of greater than" them" because you KNOW what the bible says (trust me i do know as well) it may be bible worship, and idol used to hurt another.
it is a sly trick and effective amoung religous types it is what ultimately succeeded in putting Jesus through a trial in which He gave HIS life.
He could have had a resucue and showed them who was the TRUTH right then and there, He didnt chose that path.. He gave it up and obeyed His fathers will. and died.
because He loves that much.
such as HE is.
Of course we do not sway with every wind of doctrine, but we do not live in a vacum either, the primary call of a christian is to love another, and it aint as easy as it sounds it truly isnt abuot the other guy it is all about our own thoughts and thinking and ability to maintain a mind that can obey Gods will.
keep posting, and fight the good fight dear BUT we do not fight people honey we love them .
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T-Bone
When it comes to exploring my own faith one of the things I really enjoy about GSC is the input by non-Christians. Sometimes a post will hit me like a ton of bricks – just because of its resonance…it doesn't matter who posted it. I imagine the disciples may have learned a thing or two about faith from a woman who was not even Jewish in the following passage:
Matthew 15:21-28 NIV
21Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. 22A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, "Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me! My daughter is suffering terribly from demon-possession."
23Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, "Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us."
24He answered, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel."
25The woman came and knelt before him. "Lord, help me!" she said.
26He replied, "It is not right to take the children's bread and toss it to their dogs."
27"Yes, Lord," she said, "but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table."
28Then Jesus answered, "Woman, you have great faith! Your request is granted." And her daughter was healed from that very hour.
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pond
I love that passage.
Look at tone, it teaches us about Jesus thinks.
She was mouthy to the Lord!
he didnt take offense in fact it was a real blessing to HIM to hear a woman speak truth!
She was far from intimidated because he had those disciples complaining, she was a strong lady to say "yeah well (maybe so) BUT Jesus the thing is even the dogs eat from their Masters table!
she was saying so what "If your really a Saviour YOU CAN DO IT!
it impressed Jesus very very much he liked her attitude even after he called her a dog!! lolol what a Guy he was honest and called it like it was in how people think. But knew God so well as a LOVER of us all.
where as the disciples fell into we shouldnt because she doesnt deserve it and besides she isnt one of us and she has a very big mouth and shows no respect to us because we stand with the Saviour.
Jesus says it is all about the faith HE CAN do it, so He did and does and that is Why He is my friend.
I like her too Jesus .
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JavaJane
Just thought this poem was interesting in light of the topic:
LOVE
Gurulugomi (Buddhist Sage~12th Century AD)
If you develop love truly great,
rid of the desire to hold and possess.
That strong, clean love untarnished by lust,
that love which does not expect to be repayed,
that love which is firm but not grasping,
enduring but not tied down,
gentle and settled,
diamond-hard but unhurting,
helpful but not interfering,
cool and refreshing,
giving more than taking,
dignified but not proud,
soft but not weak,
that love which leads to Enlightenment,
then you will be washed of all ill-will.
Sound familiar?
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johniam
Yes, there are, but Jesus told Nicodemus that 'Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God'. The name of this thread is agape or arrogance. Where thinking about the Word (Bible), which all of us do, may become arrogance is when we put what we think above what God says clearly. I do respect some of your posts and learn from them, but you don't really have any basis to be sure that what you think is right or wrong. Elevating what people think over what God says opens the door for abuse in many situations. It seems to me that was where TWI fell short; they decided what they thought, and then went looking for Bible verses that seemed to bear out what they had already decided to believe. I also enjoy the passage that T-Bone quoted yesterday but the woman in that passage argued with Jesus logically and even, to a certain extent. using 'it is written' as her authority. She didn't just go up to him and tell him he was wrong without having something concrete to back her up. I think your definition of agape has some points that are fairly accurate, outside of your contention that all people can attain agape, and I enjoyed that poem that JavaJane posted but there again I recognize the elements of truth it contains by comparing it to 1 Corinthians 13, and I think JavaJane did, also.
Oh, dang it, I did it AGAIN. This is once again Jean, not John. I guess we need his and her computers. Sorry, all.
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T-Bone
Assuming that one has the correct understanding of the Bible hits me as being a little arrogant - and is reminiscent of the TWI thought process. I could list a number of biblical topics that are guaranteed to generate arguments among some Christian folk – each believing they are right based on their understanding of "clear" Scriptures. My thoughts behind what I said in post # 119 have a lot to do with the critical thinking process – of which a core element is intellectual humility. Maybe the only safe assumptions are the beliefs that I don't have all the answers, that a faulty thought may be present, and that my point of view shapes my perception of reality.
I know myself enough to realize at times – under the subtle influence of my belief system – I am prone to loading an assumption into the thinking process. I'm not saying that is bad necessarily – but the more aware I am of things going on in the background the better I am at verifying my intellectual standards. I don't think there's anything wrong with reading the Bible like you would any other book. And I become very hesitant when someone starts spiritualizing Scripture for the "deeper meaning." I think most non-Christians on GSC fare a lot better at applying logic and hermeneutic principles with the Bible than most TWI folk
. An active thinking process is a wonderful thing - to which most ex-TWI folk will agree! That is why I really do appreciate hearing from the non-Christian folks at GSC…whether it's about a passage in the Bible or a universal thing like love. There is value in another viewpoint and truth in other belief systems – and it's fun exploring it all! 
Regarding agape and non-Christians – I'm of the opinion agape is something all humans are capable of. I do not find anything in Scripture to indicate otherwise.
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Bramble
The 'deeper meaning' of agape is what I saw so much of in TWI. This is love. Huh? It wasn't love, it was arrogance in many instances. Oh, but you're not spiritual or mature enough to understand. Trust me, I know...
I'm wary of people who have super spiritual knowledge of love but treat others...not well, because that is how you love someone like that. Its allowed. God told me it would wake them up. It just looks extreme and cruel. Trust me...
Even on this thread we have different definitions of what agape is.
Some say it is love that all humans are capable of.
Some say only born again Christians can love agape.
Some say it is the Love of God in manifestation in the household.
Perhaps the point of the poem was that another human, in a different belief system, far away from Chrsitian and Bible sources, seemed to know something about love.
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johniam
Nobody ever said non Christians weren't welcome here; in fact it looks to me like Bramble is iimplying that Jean's Christian pov is not welcome if anything. Nobody said that non Christians cannot love; in fact it looks to me like the title of this thread is implying that non Christians are most likely to be motivated by love, and Christians are most likely to be motivated by arrogance, if anything. Talk about bizarre.
Love is like precious metals; its purity comes out when it is tested, or tried. The world hates God, yet God so loved the world that He gave, right? Our kids try our patience. Yet we love them, right? Certainly natural man has the capacity to love, but not as full as the man of body, soul, and spirit. Biblically, agape is an extention of natural man's capacity to love as much as faith is an extention of natural believing. The spirit of God within us gives us more ability to love than we had before, otherwise Christ died in vain. That's what Christians believe.
There is ample biblical documentation that it is possible for a Christian (one who is born again) to not walk in love, but walk in darkness. Christians have a spiritual adversary who wants to trip us up and cause us to fail to walk in love. Look at all the crap that got thrown in Jesus' face. He couldn't even go out in public without all these idiots gravitating toward him. Yet he loved; sometimes it was nice sometimes it wasn't, but he's the one guy who never failed to walk in love.
Non Christians have no spiritual adversary trying to trip them up. They can often appear like the coolest people you ever met...UNTIL confronted with the word of God. Then their nasty side can come out.
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