You talked about getting to a level where "It's not important how others treat you" ... as tho' this is the apex of Agape. Did I understand you correctly?
THIS concept of Agape is the one that gets dangerous. In fact, this concept of Christianity itself is the classic twist in the road, that has led so many well-meaning people AWAY from the sort of life that God wants for us.
Why?
Because we prioritize Service above Self. And then we get sick or impoverished or cynical, because we have de-valued our own worth in order to take care of everyone else. This is sick. This is not the divine plan.
As someone said earlier, we are not required to have nails pounded into our hands, because Jesus did that for us. Now THIS was God's plan, God's Agape. Not only do we not have to do this, we are not able to do this.
To presume that we can even approach loving at the level that God loves us ... is ridiculous (maybe even blasphemy!). And to religiously make ourselves "low man on the totem pole" is ... sin.
TWI and most churches are in defiance of God when they ignore - or more precisely when they condemn - the Godly principal of loving one's self. If we could get this straight, if we could be taught this as children, then we could vastly reduce so much mental illness, divorce, suicide, cult participation, poverty, lots of stuff.
And once we understand and actually practice self-love to a healthy and genuine degree, then we can love our neighbors AS OURSELVES at the level and fullness that God intended. The results? Ohmygosh ... imagine it !!!
Self love and Christianity...isn't much basic Christian doctrine built on the fallen man, born in sin, fallen world, we are sinners, have mercy on me...pretty hard to move toward a self love is important viewpoint if you truly believe those things.
Through in the devil spirit/possesion doctrines and people start looking pretty ugly and in need of major change and work.
In TWI we were all about changing ourselves because we were just not perfect enough...seems like some off shoots see it the same way with their Momentous classes etc.
The book and verse says "LOVE ONE ANOTHER" the idea of another and loving certainly says it is at least a two way street.
abuse happens when Relgion gets this ideal confused and mixed in with "service"> etc. I can love the man with the gun in his hand and he can shoot me in the face while I pray for his utter soul to meet me in the kingdom.
Then why was the need for a RISEN Christ to conquer Death on the cross?
do not be foolish, we do live in a fallen world and ALL fall short of what God has in mind for how we are to live with one another.
use some wisdom. have some knowledge.
one can use to be a martyr for Jeasus and i believe it slaps all he did for mankind in his face once again.
In the bible plenty of people died and it was at the will of God it was done. God didnt say look noah if you love them more they will then worship me and seek my will.
NO ! He said they are evil.
the love needs to be like a river or flowing and if they got some kind of huge stone that impedes the flow the water flows around the problem and continues.
yes Jesus loves the unlovable HELLO we are all sinners so HENCE we are all indeed quite incapable of pleasing God or loving in the manner He designed us to be. YET JESUS did just that out of Obedience to the Fathers will for HIS life and his concern for mankind.
Jesus didnt LOVE the assholes, he rebelled against many who had different ideal and opinions and openly rebuked them calling them the children of satan etc.
the idea this world is our home or some how with our holy spirit we can change the formula of how it came to be in such a state is just stupid.
our holy spirit guides and teaches whom we CAN love and who CAN love us back at any given momnet in time, such is the service God asks for towards one another, get it?
today i might go out and say or do something that truly blesses another and another may do the same for me and i feel the love of GOD! how? by the spirit within each one of us!
the next minute i may come upon a evil or crazed person or be in a bad mood myself and lie or hurt another that is LIFE for all of mankind and how easy it is to sin against one another and God. unbelievers have no awareness of the difference, those with a spirit within may recognize God or a spiritual situation with the end result being the GLORY OF GOD where as a person without faith just carrys on in another day, maybe with another pat on the back for doing a good deed for someone, making it all about their glory not the LORDS. this is how the religous people often work, pointing always to their redemptive work and deeds which clearly Jesus states does not get anyone into the kingdom . This is Jesus gig people you are still a sinner, but hopefully we have good days and can serve and love one another always seeking the will of God with the Gift that Jeasus sowed for our life eternal.
it is a spiritual walk certainly not a flesh seeking do for me and i will do for you type of system religous leaders what us to
follow.
God did not create evil people He said his creation are GOOD! People can love people, do good to one another,people are absolutely amazing creations of the LORD!!! he loves us ALL. even my cat is capable of love and goodness.
We are no different than an "unbeliever" other than by THE GRACE of God we happen to believe that JESUS CHRIS performed a mircle through the Father with the holy spirit gift for us.
watch people who you think your better than because in a moment of time they too may have the gift of this holyness given FREELY by no work of yours at all.
the problem is a spiritual problem and if we have a good God, we must have a choice of a bad god, or it would not be a choice to worship either of them.
but yet it is and that is why the holy spirit works within us .
Self love and Christianity...isn't much basic Christian doctrine built on the fallen man, born in sin, fallen world, we are sinners, have mercy on me...pretty hard to move toward a self love is important viewpoint if you truly believe those things.
Through in the devil spirit/possesion doctrines and people start looking pretty ugly and in need of major change and work.
In TWI we were all about changing ourselves because we were just not perfect enough...seems like some off shoots see it the same way with their Momentous classes etc.
edited for spilling :P
I love (myself included) because He first loved me.
Am I perfect?
no! but that is why I claim a Lord who is!
Jesus Christ is a TEACHER! when on earth his primary mission was to teach about God and HIS will and about the kingdom to come.
He is still teaching and always will Teach our spirit that is why we got the gift of it so we as well as those who saw him in the flesh Can have a relationship with God and HIM.
We need to learn abut Gods will , and it isnt like a package deal here is your life learn it.
it is you got a life and then on top of it here is Gods will for it. Which do you chose to do? with or without His will?
so all people will change i mean no one is still where they were at in any capacity when they were five or one years old.
so we all change. that is a given. what these classes tryto provide is a tool to help you change and see where you really at and why.
am i any less of a sinner than i was? YES i like to think knowledge and learning has played a role in who I am .
So maybe i can love a little more than yesterday. Such is the service life BUT i can also sin and recognize the ROLE of why I need a Saviour and teacher to help me .
with out HIM i am not any different than any other human or creation, but with this holy spirit I can meet the end result which is NOT my glory but rather Gods.
when it becomes my glory it is the arrogance some carry in life.
Self love and Christianity...isn't much basic Christian doctrine built on the fallen man, born in sin, fallen world, we are sinners, have mercy on me...pretty hard to move toward a self love is important viewpoint if you truly believe those things...
I tend to think it is because we do love ourselves that we are saddened by such things [a fallen world, sin, evil, etc.]. Anyone who has a loved one becomes upset if any harm befalls them – I think that applies to self-love as well – it's natural to love ourselves. So, I don't think it's a matter of getting motivated to love self. Ephesians makes reference to this self-love - and speaks of it as the standard for gauging how husbands should treat their wives.
Ephesians 5:28-33 NIV
28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c]32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
I think some christians think they are the ONE God choose to redeem mankind. that is by loving another we can make eternal life happen, or change circumstances as they are.
this is also why many refuse to enter into His will.
WE all deep inside know the life we live can be miserable and very disappointing . regret, sorrow and even death is real to all of us.
the bible speaks of loving to make a difference, it must be a ideal you think will work. But first we must remember the record in its self of how why what and the plan of God beyond the circumstance and maybe in spite of the circumstance.
hope is the theme in the bible the jews and followers of christ HOPE for different kingdom.
so why not just accept the Saviour and be a hater? we can! plenty do.
the difference is my life is when i am loved, by God and by another . Does it make a difference for you to be loved?
If I think a God happens to be real, I cant prove it, I can not see HIM or prove the miricle is what i think it is.
But love does prove itself it makes a difference and ATTRACTS people.
if i think IM a worm and a sinner that cant be loved by God or another human it isnt attractive or inviting nor does it change anything.
low self esteem erodes , we all know that and we all deal with it at times in life. well most anyway.
to know im a sinner and Jesus christ LOVED me anyway now that is powerful enough to make me want to change to be able to love like that to be able help another feel that love. they look at me and ask ? why do you love? and I can say
because He first loved me!
Not because I have a good job or my hair turned out ok today, or my life is peachy.
the path leads us all to the lover of mankind Jesus christ!
On the lighter side I thought you might enjoy this. It's an e-mail a friend of mine sent to me, and it seemed to fit with the subject.
Installing Love
Tech Support: Yes, ... how can I help you?
Customer: Well, after much consideration, I've decided to install Love. Can you guide me though the process?
Tech Support: Yes. I can help you. Are you ready to proceed?
Customer: Well, I'm not very technical, but I think I'm ready. What do I do first?
Tech Support: The first step is to open your Heart. Have you located your Heart?
Customer: Yes, but there are several other programs running now. Is it okay to install Love while they are running?
Tech Support: What programs are running ?
Customer: Let's see, I have Past Hurt, Low Self-Esteem, Grudge and Resentment running right now.
Tech Support: No problem, Love will gradually erase Past Hurt from your current operating system. It may remain in your permanent memory but it will no longer disrupt other programs. Love will eventually override Low Self-Esteem with a module of its own called High Self-Esteem. However, you have to completely turn off Grudge and Resentment. Those programs prevent Love from being properly installed. Can you turn those off ?
Customer: I don't know how to turn them off. Can you tell me how?
Tech Support: With pleasure. Go to your start menu and invoke Forgiveness. Do this as many times as necessary until Grudge and Resentment have been completely erased.
Customer: Okay, done! Love has started installing itself. Is that normal?
Tech Support: Yes, but remember that you have only the base program. You need to begin connecting to other Hearts in order to get the upgrades.
Customer: Oops! I have an error message already. It says, "Error - Program not run on external components ." What should I do?
Tech Support: Don't worry. It means that the Love program is set up to run on Internal Hearts, but has not yet been run on your Heart. In non-technical terms, it simply means you have to Love yourself before you can Love others.
Customer: So, what should I do?
Tech Support: Pull down Self-Acceptance; then click on the following files: Forgive-Self; Realize Your Worth; and Acknowledge your Limitations.
Customer: Okay, done.
Tech Support: Now, copy them to the "My Heart" directory. The system will overwrite any conflicting files and begin patching faulty programming. Also, you need to delete Verbose Self-Criticism from all directories and empty your Recycle Bin to make sure it is completely gone and never comes back.
Customer: Got it. Hey! My heart is filling up with new files. Smile is playing on my monitor and Peace and Contentment are copying themselves all over My Heart. Is this normal?
Tech Support: Sometimes. For others it takes awhile, but eventually everything gets it at the proper time. So Love is installed and running. One more thing before we hang up. Love is Freeware. Be sure to give it and its various modules to everyone you meet. They will in turn share it with others and return some cool modules back to you.
And another one. Enjoy youselves. Thanks very much, Bramble.
From a strictly mathematical viewpoint:
What Equals 100%? What does it mean to give MORE than 100%? Ever wonder about those people who say they are giving more than 100%? We have all been in situations where someone wants you to give over 100%. How about achieving 101%? What equals 100% in life?
Here's a little mathematical formula that might help you answer these Questions:
If:
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
I don't think I meant to imply that is up to me to decide that anyone is inferior or otherwise unfit. I think it is impossible to tell from the outside of a person whether they are born-again or not. It is possible for God to tell me and also it's possible for God to tell me if a person will or won't become born again at some point in the future, but I think there would have to be a good reason for Him to tell me that and a good reason that I would need to know that; otherwise it seems to me that that information is really none of my business.
That nicely sidesteps your original contention that only those "born again" are God's children. It also completely ignores my contention that not being "born again" does not mean that you can't exhibit agape love.
Bottom line
all people are children of Heavenly Father
some people are followers of Jesus Christ -Christians"
Agape love can be practiced by any person regardless of religious affliation
That nicely sidesteps your original contention that only those "born again" are God's children. It also completely ignores my contention that not being "born again" does not mean that you can't exhibit agape love.
Bottom line
all people are children of Heavenly Father
some people are followers of Jesus Christ -Christians"
Agape love can be practiced by any person regardless of religious affliation
1) By creation, but in this day and time God says He requires the new birth.
people are not All children of the heavenly Father. God made Adam he created Adam and eve only :after that the system in which He created within a man's and a womans body gave them the ability to make more just like all of his creations.
Adam was THE creation (one time only then the folks populated the earth) after the fall the lines are CLEARLY drawn on who belongs to God and who does NOT!!!
more do not than do by far.
record after record of who is who in the bible and even Jesus says to them your Father is satan.
we are a CHOOSEN people! hello choosen says their will be a number in the NOT chosen group.
even in the kingdom natural people will be born and die a natural death, during the reign of Christ. Not until the final battle and Christ gives his rulership to God does the earth return to a state of All belonging to God.
First the "born again" theology is a fundamentalist theology the specifics of which are not uniformly codified. Strict fundamentalists will tell you that the followers of Jesus Christ, who are Lutheran, Episcopalian, LDS, Jehovah Witness, 7th Day Adventists, Presbytrerian, Congregational, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodix to name a few are not "born again"
Never mind that they have accepted and belive in Jesus Christ as the Son of GOd whose Atonement was made for all of mankind.
If I am to follow Jeaniam and pond's belief system it would mean that new born infants are not children of Heavenly Father. What?? The age of accountability?? so they are children of Heavenly Father but then they aren't children of Heavenly FAther after the age of Accountability???
Your own arguments don't even support themselves. I quit -- there is none so blind as those who will not see. You both have painted a world, that is so filled with law that grace no longer has a place. YOu both would do well with an outfit I heard about that is centered in New Knoxville, Ohio...you might want to check it out you should feel right at home.
It's about the same as pointing out that half the human race doesn't have the ability to menstuate because they don't have ovaries Are men lesser people because they can't menstruate or women special or better because they can. No, it's just a fact of heredity. So the ability to love with agape is just a matter of spiritual heredity and doesn't necessarily make one group of people special or better than another. And it is certainly of grace because nowhere in the Bible does it say that born-again believers did anything to earn this; it was all part of the gift of God.
First the "born again" theology is a fundamentalist theology the specifics of which are not uniformly codified. Strict fundamentalists will tell you that the followers of Jesus Christ, who are Lutheran, Episcopalian, LDS, Jehovah Witness, 7th Day Adventists, Presbytrerian, Congregational, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodix to name a few are not "born again"
Never mind that they have accepted and belive in Jesus Christ as the Son of GOd whose Atonement was made for all of mankind.
If I am to follow Jeaniam and pond's belief system it would mean that new born infants are not children of Heavenly Father. What?? The age of accountability?? so they are children of Heavenly Father but then they aren't children of Heavenly FAther after the age of Accountability???
Your own arguments don't even support themselves. I quit -- there is none so blind as those who will not see. You both have painted a world, that is so filled with law that grace no longer has a place. YOu both would do well with an outfit I heard about that is centered in New Knoxville, Ohio...you might want to check it out you should feel right at home.
Excuse me I never said anything about being "born again" , If a person believes romans 9, 10 they have the gift of holy spirit which is the believing in the atonement of Jesus Christ etc.
that is right a baby is not born into the citizenship of the new kingdom. says the bible. not me. it is a willful CHOICE to worship God, not a forced measure of all being without a choice on whom to worhship or not. at any given moment in time.
If one does not believe there is a God what use do they have for HIM? none and plenty of people fall into this group! they live life and then they die they do not go for this eternal life and prayer business.
why would there ever be a need? for a new kingdom? if this one was already filled with Gods will and people?
what you claim mocks the entire bible story of how what and were etc..... apparently your not so familiar with the actual records and what the declare as truth. since the dawn of man or creation it has been a Choice to worhship the true God or not.
I say nothing about who can and can not love that is jeans thing not mine. again you lump everything into one pile of right and wrong.
provisions are written for those who fear some can never make the choice of whether to believe they will be HEALED at the time of the return and then given the choice whether to accept Jesus as LORD ro not. a father house has plenty to do with that and whether anyone has interceded and asked for them to be healed, they were prayed for and the healing will come and the choice MUST be made before the throne of Christ.
unbeliever or natural citizens of earth will ALSO be in the kingdom!! not every person will die befroe the thousand year reign .they will have a chance to Chose then whether they will follow the Lord while he is again on earth during His reign! some will not chose to follow Christ then even then with the Lord alive and in power over the earth just as when He walked the earth in the flesh and they will die a natural persons death.
I have no idea what your talking about as far as "accoutability" it is merely a choice to love God or not and believe He raised Jesus from the dead.
not until the final battle and death is destoyed can Jesus give the children competely over to Gods and his will be done.
you come on this thread and blast me. some nerve you have no bible record at all as the bible clearly states what i have said here as truth. if you want to talk about what you think think away many new ideas forming everyday , that does mean your saying Gods plan .
Please do not take anything I am about to say personally - it is not meant to be insulting. It's just that this phrase "Believe Romans 10:9, 10" has always bugged me because I think it implies something that is not meant when we say it.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Q: What gives action gives you salvation according to these verses?
A: Confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in your heart that God raised him from the dead.
Q: Do you have to believe this is the way to salvation (which would be believing Romans 10:9, 10) in order to be saved?
A: No. You must DO as the verses say... you must believe and confess. It has nothing to do with belief that Romans 10:9 and 10 are true - it only has to do with the action taken by the individual.
How many people do not believe that this is the way to salvation, and yet are saved because of the actions of believing and confessing? Probably a lot more than believe the actual verses of Romans 10:9, 10 are true.
You do not have to believe in the process, you just have to do the actions.
Just a little thing - not a big deal. Everyone here understands exactly what you mean when you say "believe Romans 10:9, 10" - it's kinda like twi shorthand for the process. It can be a bit confusing for people who don't have the background. I prefer to say that in order to be born again you must make Jesus Lord in your life, and believe that God raised Him from the dead. (If I am going to say that - I'm not really sure what I believe about a lot of things right now.)
I have been trying to re-arrange my speaking habits that go back to my days in twi, so I can be more readily understood by the rest of the world.
Anyway - sorry for the interruption, please carry on with your discussions - they are tickling my brain and I enjoy them immensely.
Is God the Father of Adam and Eve? He created them, that seems to be a parental act in my view. What about their descendants... He has no relationship to them, responsibilities? Because Adam and Eve fell?
Many human parents seem to be able to love and care for the children of their erring children...but God can't unless certain conditions of belief are met. That is not unconditional love.
Doesn't seem like a responsible famililial attitude to me.
I think the born again doctrine is an ultra exclusionary doctrine--the 'born agains' love better, think better, know better, act better etc, than any non born agains, in their born again viewpoint. They are the superior humans--the world should follow them, and convert to their beliefs.
I personally do not believe there has been any change in the nature of human beings since the coming of Christ. The world continues on with the good and the bad, and the Christian Church is just as much part of the good and the bad as any other group.
If the born again doctrine is true, why can't their superiority be observed?
Agape can't be pin pointed. An act could be done through Agape, or maybe not...two acts of say, heroism, one might be agape because the hero was Christian but the other not because the hero was Jewish...
indeed! I did use that because my reply is on an ex way forum and it was easier to write. Jesus as Lord does not neccesarily take the knowledge of ANY bible verse. It is the knowledge of God the seking of God etc..
we are called before the foundation, we are chosen and Gods will is that ALL be saved. the spiritual choice is there for those with the ears to hear.
bramble
God is LOVE. it is not conditional it is as far from any condition as one can get. SALVATION is the key word here,
to be saved, from what? life? we have a ife everyone has a life that is born, so what are we SAVED from?
DEATH!!!!!!!
ooo yeah remeber that little thing that happened during the fall now man can DIE!!!
serious stuff. so be SAved from death one needs to recognize how death was defeated HENCE THE SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST! beli3eve on HIM and the fact He was RAISED from DEATH, and you can be saved from WHAT DEATH> not life .
life is a given everything has life because God loves us! it is in the RISEN life of Jesus Christ we believe that conquered death. giving us a future kingdom in which the issues that arise now will be eliminated namely sin and death.
christian are just people who believe in the theory of the bible story.
why is it still theory? because it has NOT happened yet!!! no superiority God is love and He does not pick and CHOSE !! PEOPLE pick and Chose whether to believe in His plan for the redemption or not.
if your not a christian God loves you you get all what he has created, you got life itself!!! good enough for many folks.
If you happen to accept Christ as Lord and the bible plan well the fact is you wont die you will have perfect bodies one day you will live in the kingdom with Jesus christ and God without SIN and the issues we face today.
Please do not take anything I am about to say personally - it is not meant to be insulting. It's just that this phrase "Believe Romans 10:9, 10" has always bugged me because I think it implies something that is not meant when we say it.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Q: What gives action gives you salvation according to these verses?
A: Confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in your heart that God raised him from the dead.
Q: Do you have to believe this is the way to salvation (which would be believing Romans 10:9, 10) in order to be saved?
A: No. You must DO as the verses say... you must believe and confess. It has nothing to do with belief that Romans 10:9 and 10 are true - it only has to do with the action taken by the individual.
How many people do not believe that this is the way to salvation, and yet are saved because of the actions of believing and confessing? Probably a lot more than believe the actual verses of Romans 10:9, 10 are true.
You do not have to believe in the process, you just have to do the actions.
That's a very good point, JJ, I've never really thought it through like that, but it seems to me to be true, and it allows for the possibility of many people in other Christian groups getting born-again which was something it always seemed TWI went out of their way to deny.
BTW what happened to the baby with the big cup of coffee. I liked it better than what you have now.
Is God the Father of Adam and Eve? He created them, that seems to be a parental act in my view. What about their descendants... He has no relationship to them, responsibilities? Because Adam and Eve fell?
Many human parents seem to be able to love and care for the children of their erring children...but God can't unless certain conditions of belief are met. That is not unconditional love.
Doesn't seem like a responsible famililial attitude to me.
I think the born again doctrine is an ultra exclusionary doctrine--the 'born agains' love better, think better, know better, act better etc, than any non born agains, in their born again viewpoint. They are the superior humans--the world should follow them, and convert to their beliefs.
I personally do not believe there has been any change in the nature of human beings since the coming of Christ. The world continues on with the good and the bad, and the Christian Church is just as much part of the good and the bad as any other group.
If the born again doctrine is true, why can't their superiority be observed?
Agape can't be pin pointed. An act could be done through Agape, or maybe not...two acts of say, heroism, one might be agape because the hero was Christian but the other not because the hero was Jewish...
Obviously, God feels a sense of responsibility to all human beings (not just believers). He keeps the world turning, rain falling on the just and unjust. I'm sure it would have been just as easy for Him to wipe out the human race at the point of the fall of man, say 'Okay, failed experiment, let's try something different' and move on; but He didn't. He came up with the plan of salvation, spent many centuries executing it just so He could have a family. As pond says it is God's will for all men to be saved, but that doesn't mean they will be.
The born again doctrine may be an ultra exclusionary doctrine, but that is how God set it up in this day and time (and BTW He made it about as easy as He could; men don't have to do anything to earn it, they just have to accept the gift God is giving them); if you don't like it argue with Him. I don't think the born-again ones necessarily think better, love better, know better, act better, etc. than any non born-again ones. Nor do I believe that the Bible says anywhere that they are the superior human beings. In the first century a great deal of the world did follow them and convert to Christian beliefs, but in the first century men and women of God demonstrated the power of God, which a great many Christians for centuries did not. In the first century the DIFFERENCE (not superiority) of a born-again believer was observed through the power they demonstrated. Anyone who has ever seen me angry would be disabused of the idea that I am a superior human being.
I agree that Agape can't really be pinpointed. In 2 Peter 1:7- we are exhorted to add 'to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity (Agape). At what point in this process does brotherly kindness (phileo) become charity (agape)? Is it a sudden event or a slow process whereby the selfish elements in phileo are filtered out and phileo slowly rises to the level of agape? I personally vote for the slow process notion; it's been ongoing in my life for more than thirty years and I still don't think I've gotten there.
ok i write like an idiot But if one does not recognize a spiritual life or a "difference" by believing in God, then surly they can not be able to recognize this "difference" in the process of loving one another or recieving of love from another.
to love is action hence the word manisfestation.
All can love as i said my fur ball "loves" me, it is an emotional reaction build into our frames and body.
the different is we can recognize a difference when we have the SPIRIT that speaks within our soul and telling us how God may be FEELING, and at times it is quite a difference than my own dare I say!
one without this spirit awareness will not recognize the different type of love being displayed or recieved .
hence to them it would be the same as any love. the love of God is more powerful than humans and yes we can "do" it, why because we have His spirit within.
we are to walk by our spirit and live by our spirit etc... hopefully to tune in to God and HIS love better, knowing or recognizing HIM is the POWER or the difference and it certainly is superiour.
his is the key word i must decrease He must increase.. knowing that was Gods love on display brings us much joy and helps us journy with the LORD in life and help one another.
arrogance would be displayed when one begins to think because by the very GRACE of God you have a spirit of HIM within you your a better person when in reality nope still just a person like any other person.
give God the glory when we recognize the differnt kind of love in our life truly it is His love for us that allows us to help and serve one another.
the love of God from another has often humbled me to the point of absolute awe.
because i recognize it with my spirit from HIM.
it is all about HIM , if not than yep it is arrogance.
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Shifra
Dear Another Spot,
You talked about getting to a level where "It's not important how others treat you" ... as tho' this is the apex of Agape. Did I understand you correctly?
THIS concept of Agape is the one that gets dangerous. In fact, this concept of Christianity itself is the classic twist in the road, that has led so many well-meaning people AWAY from the sort of life that God wants for us.
Why?
Because we prioritize Service above Self. And then we get sick or impoverished or cynical, because we have de-valued our own worth in order to take care of everyone else. This is sick. This is not the divine plan.
As someone said earlier, we are not required to have nails pounded into our hands, because Jesus did that for us. Now THIS was God's plan, God's Agape. Not only do we not have to do this, we are not able to do this.
To presume that we can even approach loving at the level that God loves us ... is ridiculous (maybe even blasphemy!). And to religiously make ourselves "low man on the totem pole" is ... sin.
TWI and most churches are in defiance of God when they ignore - or more precisely when they condemn - the Godly principal of loving one's self. If we could get this straight, if we could be taught this as children, then we could vastly reduce so much mental illness, divorce, suicide, cult participation, poverty, lots of stuff.
And once we understand and actually practice self-love to a healthy and genuine degree, then we can love our neighbors AS OURSELVES at the level and fullness that God intended. The results? Ohmygosh ... imagine it !!!
Shifra
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Bramble
Self love and Christianity...isn't much basic Christian doctrine built on the fallen man, born in sin, fallen world, we are sinners, have mercy on me...pretty hard to move toward a self love is important viewpoint if you truly believe those things.
Through in the devil spirit/possesion doctrines and people start looking pretty ugly and in need of major change and work.
In TWI we were all about changing ourselves because we were just not perfect enough...seems like some off shoots see it the same way with their Momentous classes etc.
edited for spilling :P
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pond
The above posts are very good.
The book and verse says "LOVE ONE ANOTHER" the idea of another and loving certainly says it is at least a two way street.
abuse happens when Relgion gets this ideal confused and mixed in with "service"> etc. I can love the man with the gun in his hand and he can shoot me in the face while I pray for his utter soul to meet me in the kingdom.
Then why was the need for a RISEN Christ to conquer Death on the cross?
do not be foolish, we do live in a fallen world and ALL fall short of what God has in mind for how we are to live with one another.
use some wisdom. have some knowledge.
one can use to be a martyr for Jeasus and i believe it slaps all he did for mankind in his face once again.
In the bible plenty of people died and it was at the will of God it was done. God didnt say look noah if you love them more they will then worship me and seek my will.
NO ! He said they are evil.
the love needs to be like a river or flowing and if they got some kind of huge stone that impedes the flow the water flows around the problem and continues.
yes Jesus loves the unlovable HELLO we are all sinners so HENCE we are all indeed quite incapable of pleasing God or loving in the manner He designed us to be. YET JESUS did just that out of Obedience to the Fathers will for HIS life and his concern for mankind.
Jesus didnt LOVE the assholes, he rebelled against many who had different ideal and opinions and openly rebuked them calling them the children of satan etc.
the idea this world is our home or some how with our holy spirit we can change the formula of how it came to be in such a state is just stupid.
our holy spirit guides and teaches whom we CAN love and who CAN love us back at any given momnet in time, such is the service God asks for towards one another, get it?
today i might go out and say or do something that truly blesses another and another may do the same for me and i feel the love of GOD! how? by the spirit within each one of us!
the next minute i may come upon a evil or crazed person or be in a bad mood myself and lie or hurt another that is LIFE for all of mankind and how easy it is to sin against one another and God. unbelievers have no awareness of the difference, those with a spirit within may recognize God or a spiritual situation with the end result being the GLORY OF GOD where as a person without faith just carrys on in another day, maybe with another pat on the back for doing a good deed for someone, making it all about their glory not the LORDS. this is how the religous people often work, pointing always to their redemptive work and deeds which clearly Jesus states does not get anyone into the kingdom . This is Jesus gig people you are still a sinner, but hopefully we have good days and can serve and love one another always seeking the will of God with the Gift that Jeasus sowed for our life eternal.
it is a spiritual walk certainly not a flesh seeking do for me and i will do for you type of system religous leaders what us to
follow.
God did not create evil people He said his creation are GOOD! People can love people, do good to one another,people are absolutely amazing creations of the LORD!!! he loves us ALL. even my cat is capable of love and goodness.
We are no different than an "unbeliever" other than by THE GRACE of God we happen to believe that JESUS CHRIS performed a mircle through the Father with the holy spirit gift for us.
watch people who you think your better than because in a moment of time they too may have the gift of this holyness given FREELY by no work of yours at all.
the problem is a spiritual problem and if we have a good God, we must have a choice of a bad god, or it would not be a choice to worship either of them.
but yet it is and that is why the holy spirit works within us .
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pond
Am I perfect?
no! but that is why I claim a Lord who is!
Jesus Christ is a TEACHER! when on earth his primary mission was to teach about God and HIS will and about the kingdom to come.
He is still teaching and always will Teach our spirit that is why we got the gift of it so we as well as those who saw him in the flesh Can have a relationship with God and HIM.
We need to learn abut Gods will , and it isnt like a package deal here is your life learn it.
it is you got a life and then on top of it here is Gods will for it. Which do you chose to do? with or without His will?
so all people will change i mean no one is still where they were at in any capacity when they were five or one years old.
so we all change. that is a given. what these classes tryto provide is a tool to help you change and see where you really at and why.
am i any less of a sinner than i was? YES i like to think knowledge and learning has played a role in who I am .
So maybe i can love a little more than yesterday. Such is the service life BUT i can also sin and recognize the ROLE of why I need a Saviour and teacher to help me .
with out HIM i am not any different than any other human or creation, but with this holy spirit I can meet the end result which is NOT my glory but rather Gods.
when it becomes my glory it is the arrogance some carry in life.
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T-Bone
I tend to think it is because we do love ourselves that we are saddened by such things [a fallen world, sin, evil, etc.]. Anyone who has a loved one becomes upset if any harm befalls them – I think that applies to self-love as well – it's natural to love ourselves. So, I don't think it's a matter of getting motivated to love self. Ephesians makes reference to this self-love - and speaks of it as the standard for gauging how husbands should treat their wives.
Ephesians 5:28-33 NIV
28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church— 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[c] 32This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.
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pond
I think some christians think they are the ONE God choose to redeem mankind. that is by loving another we can make eternal life happen, or change circumstances as they are.
this is also why many refuse to enter into His will.
WE all deep inside know the life we live can be miserable and very disappointing . regret, sorrow and even death is real to all of us.
the bible speaks of loving to make a difference, it must be a ideal you think will work. But first we must remember the record in its self of how why what and the plan of God beyond the circumstance and maybe in spite of the circumstance.
hope is the theme in the bible the jews and followers of christ HOPE for different kingdom.
so why not just accept the Saviour and be a hater? we can! plenty do.
the difference is my life is when i am loved, by God and by another . Does it make a difference for you to be loved?
If I think a God happens to be real, I cant prove it, I can not see HIM or prove the miricle is what i think it is.
But love does prove itself it makes a difference and ATTRACTS people.
if i think IM a worm and a sinner that cant be loved by God or another human it isnt attractive or inviting nor does it change anything.
low self esteem erodes , we all know that and we all deal with it at times in life. well most anyway.
to know im a sinner and Jesus christ LOVED me anyway now that is powerful enough to make me want to change to be able to love like that to be able help another feel that love. they look at me and ask ? why do you love? and I can say
because He first loved me!
Not because I have a good job or my hair turned out ok today, or my life is peachy.
the path leads us all to the lover of mankind Jesus christ!
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Jeaniam
On the lighter side I thought you might enjoy this. It's an e-mail a friend of mine sent to me, and it seemed to fit with the subject.
Installing Love
Tech Support: Yes, ... how can I help you?
Customer: Well, after much consideration, I've decided to install Love. Can you guide me though the process?
Tech Support: Yes. I can help you. Are you ready to proceed?
Customer: Well, I'm not very technical, but I think I'm ready. What do I do first?
Tech Support: The first step is to open your Heart. Have you located your Heart?
Customer: Yes, but there are several other programs running now. Is it okay to install Love while they are running?
Tech Support: What programs are running ?
Customer: Let's see, I have Past Hurt, Low Self-Esteem, Grudge and Resentment running right now.
Tech Support: No problem, Love will gradually erase Past Hurt from your current operating system. It may remain in your permanent memory but it will no longer disrupt other programs. Love will eventually override Low Self-Esteem with a module of its own called High Self-Esteem. However, you have to completely turn off Grudge and Resentment. Those programs prevent Love from being properly installed. Can you turn those off ?
Customer: I don't know how to turn them off. Can you tell me how?
Tech Support: With pleasure. Go to your start menu and invoke Forgiveness. Do this as many times as necessary until Grudge and Resentment have been completely erased.
Customer: Okay, done! Love has started installing itself. Is that normal?
Tech Support: Yes, but remember that you have only the base program. You need to begin connecting to other Hearts in order to get the upgrades.
Customer: Oops! I have an error message already. It says, "Error - Program not run on external components ." What should I do?
Tech Support: Don't worry. It means that the Love program is set up to run on Internal Hearts, but has not yet been run on your Heart. In non-technical terms, it simply means you have to Love yourself before you can Love others.
Customer: So, what should I do?
Tech Support: Pull down Self-Acceptance; then click on the following files: Forgive-Self; Realize Your Worth; and Acknowledge your Limitations.
Customer: Okay, done.
Tech Support: Now, copy them to the "My Heart" directory. The system will overwrite any conflicting files and begin patching faulty programming. Also, you need to delete Verbose Self-Criticism from all directories and empty your Recycle Bin to make sure it is completely gone and never comes back.
Customer: Got it. Hey! My heart is filling up with new files. Smile is playing on my monitor and Peace and Contentment are copying themselves all over My Heart. Is this normal?
Tech Support: Sometimes. For others it takes awhile, but eventually everything gets it at the proper time. So Love is installed and running. One more thing before we hang up. Love is Freeware. Be sure to give it and its various modules to everyone you meet. They will in turn share it with others and return some cool modules back to you.
Customer: Thank you, God.
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Shifra
Jean, that was great! Thanks.
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Jeaniam
And another one. Enjoy youselves. Thanks very much, Bramble.
From a strictly mathematical viewpoint:
What Equals 100%? What does it mean to give MORE than 100%? Ever wonder about those people who say they are giving more than 100%? We have all been in situations where someone wants you to give over 100%. How about achieving 101%? What equals 100% in life?
Here's a little mathematical formula that might help you answer these Questions:
If:
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
Is represented as:
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 1 9 20 21 22 23 24 25 26.
Then:
H-A-R-D-W-O-R- K
8+1+18+4+23+15+18+11 = 98%
and
K-N-O-W-L-E-D-G-E
11+14+15+23+12+5+4+7+5 = 96%
But,
A-T-T-I-T-U-D-E
1+20+20+9+20+21+4+5 = 100%
AND, look how far the love of God will take you
L- O- V- E-O-F-G-O-D
12+15+22+5+15+6+7+15+4 = 101%
Therefore, one can conclude with mathematical certainty that:
While Hard work and Knowledge will get you close, and Attitude will get you there, it's the Love of God that will put you over the top!
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T-Bone
Loved your posts - thanks, Jeaniam!
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templelady
That nicely sidesteps your original contention that only those "born again" are God's children. It also completely ignores my contention that not being "born again" does not mean that you can't exhibit agape love.
Bottom line
all people are children of Heavenly Father
some people are followers of Jesus Christ -Christians"
Agape love can be practiced by any person regardless of religious affliation
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Jeaniam
1) By creation, but in this day and time God says He requires the new birth.
2) True.
3) Not according to the Bible.
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pond
people are not All children of the heavenly Father. God made Adam he created Adam and eve only :after that the system in which He created within a man's and a womans body gave them the ability to make more just like all of his creations.
Adam was THE creation (one time only then the folks populated the earth) after the fall the lines are CLEARLY drawn on who belongs to God and who does NOT!!!
more do not than do by far.
record after record of who is who in the bible and even Jesus says to them your Father is satan.
we are a CHOOSEN people! hello choosen says their will be a number in the NOT chosen group.
even in the kingdom natural people will be born and die a natural death, during the reign of Christ. Not until the final battle and Christ gives his rulership to God does the earth return to a state of All belonging to God.
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templelady
First the "born again" theology is a fundamentalist theology the specifics of which are not uniformly codified. Strict fundamentalists will tell you that the followers of Jesus Christ, who are Lutheran, Episcopalian, LDS, Jehovah Witness, 7th Day Adventists, Presbytrerian, Congregational, Roman Catholic, Greek Orthodox, Russian Orthodix to name a few are not "born again"
Never mind that they have accepted and belive in Jesus Christ as the Son of GOd whose Atonement was made for all of mankind.
If I am to follow Jeaniam and pond's belief system it would mean that new born infants are not children of Heavenly Father. What?? The age of accountability?? so they are children of Heavenly Father but then they aren't children of Heavenly FAther after the age of Accountability???
Your own arguments don't even support themselves. I quit -- there is none so blind as those who will not see. You both have painted a world, that is so filled with law that grace no longer has a place. YOu both would do well with an outfit I heard about that is centered in New Knoxville, Ohio...you might want to check it out you should feel right at home.
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Jeaniam
It's about the same as pointing out that half the human race doesn't have the ability to menstuate because they don't have ovaries Are men lesser people because they can't menstruate or women special or better because they can. No, it's just a fact of heredity. So the ability to love with agape is just a matter of spiritual heredity and doesn't necessarily make one group of people special or better than another. And it is certainly of grace because nowhere in the Bible does it say that born-again believers did anything to earn this; it was all part of the gift of God.
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pond
Excuse me I never said anything about being "born again" , If a person believes romans 9, 10 they have the gift of holy spirit which is the believing in the atonement of Jesus Christ etc.
that is right a baby is not born into the citizenship of the new kingdom. says the bible. not me. it is a willful CHOICE to worship God, not a forced measure of all being without a choice on whom to worhship or not. at any given moment in time.
If one does not believe there is a God what use do they have for HIM? none and plenty of people fall into this group! they live life and then they die they do not go for this eternal life and prayer business.
why would there ever be a need? for a new kingdom? if this one was already filled with Gods will and people?
what you claim mocks the entire bible story of how what and were etc..... apparently your not so familiar with the actual records and what the declare as truth. since the dawn of man or creation it has been a Choice to worhship the true God or not.
I say nothing about who can and can not love that is jeans thing not mine. again you lump everything into one pile of right and wrong.
provisions are written for those who fear some can never make the choice of whether to believe they will be HEALED at the time of the return and then given the choice whether to accept Jesus as LORD ro not. a father house has plenty to do with that and whether anyone has interceded and asked for them to be healed, they were prayed for and the healing will come and the choice MUST be made before the throne of Christ.
unbeliever or natural citizens of earth will ALSO be in the kingdom!! not every person will die befroe the thousand year reign .they will have a chance to Chose then whether they will follow the Lord while he is again on earth during His reign! some will not chose to follow Christ then even then with the Lord alive and in power over the earth just as when He walked the earth in the flesh and they will die a natural persons death.
I have no idea what your talking about as far as "accoutability" it is merely a choice to love God or not and believe He raised Jesus from the dead.
not until the final battle and death is destoyed can Jesus give the children competely over to Gods and his will be done.
you come on this thread and blast me. some nerve you have no bible record at all as the bible clearly states what i have said here as truth. if you want to talk about what you think think away many new ideas forming everyday , that does mean your saying Gods plan .
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JavaJane
Please do not take anything I am about to say personally - it is not meant to be insulting. It's just that this phrase "Believe Romans 10:9, 10" has always bugged me because I think it implies something that is not meant when we say it.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Q: What gives action gives you salvation according to these verses?
A: Confessing Jesus as Lord and believing in your heart that God raised him from the dead.
Q: Do you have to believe this is the way to salvation (which would be believing Romans 10:9, 10) in order to be saved?
A: No. You must DO as the verses say... you must believe and confess. It has nothing to do with belief that Romans 10:9 and 10 are true - it only has to do with the action taken by the individual.
How many people do not believe that this is the way to salvation, and yet are saved because of the actions of believing and confessing? Probably a lot more than believe the actual verses of Romans 10:9, 10 are true.
You do not have to believe in the process, you just have to do the actions.
Just a little thing - not a big deal. Everyone here understands exactly what you mean when you say "believe Romans 10:9, 10" - it's kinda like twi shorthand for the process. It can be a bit confusing for people who don't have the background. I prefer to say that in order to be born again you must make Jesus Lord in your life, and believe that God raised Him from the dead. (If I am going to say that - I'm not really sure what I believe about a lot of things right now.)
I have been trying to re-arrange my speaking habits that go back to my days in twi, so I can be more readily understood by the rest of the world.
Anyway - sorry for the interruption, please carry on with your discussions - they are tickling my brain and I enjoy them immensely.
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Bramble
Is God the Father of Adam and Eve? He created them, that seems to be a parental act in my view. What about their descendants... He has no relationship to them, responsibilities? Because Adam and Eve fell?
Many human parents seem to be able to love and care for the children of their erring children...but God can't unless certain conditions of belief are met. That is not unconditional love.
Doesn't seem like a responsible famililial attitude to me.
I think the born again doctrine is an ultra exclusionary doctrine--the 'born agains' love better, think better, know better, act better etc, than any non born agains, in their born again viewpoint. They are the superior humans--the world should follow them, and convert to their beliefs.
I personally do not believe there has been any change in the nature of human beings since the coming of Christ. The world continues on with the good and the bad, and the Christian Church is just as much part of the good and the bad as any other group.
If the born again doctrine is true, why can't their superiority be observed?
Agape can't be pin pointed. An act could be done through Agape, or maybe not...two acts of say, heroism, one might be agape because the hero was Christian but the other not because the hero was Jewish...
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pond
Java Jane
indeed! I did use that because my reply is on an ex way forum and it was easier to write. Jesus as Lord does not neccesarily take the knowledge of ANY bible verse. It is the knowledge of God the seking of God etc..
we are called before the foundation, we are chosen and Gods will is that ALL be saved. the spiritual choice is there for those with the ears to hear.
bramble
God is LOVE. it is not conditional it is as far from any condition as one can get. SALVATION is the key word here,
to be saved, from what? life? we have a ife everyone has a life that is born, so what are we SAVED from?
DEATH!!!!!!!
ooo yeah remeber that little thing that happened during the fall now man can DIE!!!
serious stuff. so be SAved from death one needs to recognize how death was defeated HENCE THE SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST! beli3eve on HIM and the fact He was RAISED from DEATH, and you can be saved from WHAT DEATH> not life .
life is a given everything has life because God loves us! it is in the RISEN life of Jesus Christ we believe that conquered death. giving us a future kingdom in which the issues that arise now will be eliminated namely sin and death.
christian are just people who believe in the theory of the bible story.
why is it still theory? because it has NOT happened yet!!! no superiority God is love and He does not pick and CHOSE !! PEOPLE pick and Chose whether to believe in His plan for the redemption or not.
if your not a christian God loves you you get all what he has created, you got life itself!!! good enough for many folks.
If you happen to accept Christ as Lord and the bible plan well the fact is you wont die you will have perfect bodies one day you will live in the kingdom with Jesus christ and God without SIN and the issues we face today.
your saved from death.
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Jeaniam
That's a very good point, JJ, I've never really thought it through like that, but it seems to me to be true, and it allows for the possibility of many people in other Christian groups getting born-again which was something it always seemed TWI went out of their way to deny.
BTW what happened to the baby with the big cup of coffee. I liked it better than what you have now.
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JavaJane
Just been feeling a little like I'm down a rabbit hole or through a looking glass lately since I've been around here.
Especially since I'm playing our iTunes on shuffle for all music... The Prevailing Word Chorus Chior just came on and I choked on my Coke...
Hit next, and the next thing that came up was Triumph - the Insult Comic Dog.
Choked again.
"I think twi is great... ...For me to poop on!!" - Triumph. I love you.
Anyway, things have been a little surreal for me as I reinvent my reality...
*edited due to repeating myself and choking on Coke
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Jeaniam
Obviously, God feels a sense of responsibility to all human beings (not just believers). He keeps the world turning, rain falling on the just and unjust. I'm sure it would have been just as easy for Him to wipe out the human race at the point of the fall of man, say 'Okay, failed experiment, let's try something different' and move on; but He didn't. He came up with the plan of salvation, spent many centuries executing it just so He could have a family. As pond says it is God's will for all men to be saved, but that doesn't mean they will be.
The born again doctrine may be an ultra exclusionary doctrine, but that is how God set it up in this day and time (and BTW He made it about as easy as He could; men don't have to do anything to earn it, they just have to accept the gift God is giving them); if you don't like it argue with Him. I don't think the born-again ones necessarily think better, love better, know better, act better, etc. than any non born-again ones. Nor do I believe that the Bible says anywhere that they are the superior human beings. In the first century a great deal of the world did follow them and convert to Christian beliefs, but in the first century men and women of God demonstrated the power of God, which a great many Christians for centuries did not. In the first century the DIFFERENCE (not superiority) of a born-again believer was observed through the power they demonstrated. Anyone who has ever seen me angry would be disabused of the idea that I am a superior human being.
I agree that Agape can't really be pinpointed. In 2 Peter 1:7- we are exhorted to add 'to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity (Agape). At what point in this process does brotherly kindness (phileo) become charity (agape)? Is it a sudden event or a slow process whereby the selfish elements in phileo are filtered out and phileo slowly rises to the level of agape? I personally vote for the slow process notion; it's been ongoing in my life for more than thirty years and I still don't think I've gotten there.
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pond
this agape love idea:
ok i write like an idiot But if one does not recognize a spiritual life or a "difference" by believing in God, then surly they can not be able to recognize this "difference" in the process of loving one another or recieving of love from another.
to love is action hence the word manisfestation.
All can love as i said my fur ball "loves" me, it is an emotional reaction build into our frames and body.
the different is we can recognize a difference when we have the SPIRIT that speaks within our soul and telling us how God may be FEELING, and at times it is quite a difference than my own dare I say!
one without this spirit awareness will not recognize the different type of love being displayed or recieved .
hence to them it would be the same as any love. the love of God is more powerful than humans and yes we can "do" it, why because we have His spirit within.
we are to walk by our spirit and live by our spirit etc... hopefully to tune in to God and HIS love better, knowing or recognizing HIM is the POWER or the difference and it certainly is superiour.
his is the key word i must decrease He must increase.. knowing that was Gods love on display brings us much joy and helps us journy with the LORD in life and help one another.
arrogance would be displayed when one begins to think because by the very GRACE of God you have a spirit of HIM within you your a better person when in reality nope still just a person like any other person.
give God the glory when we recognize the differnt kind of love in our life truly it is His love for us that allows us to help and serve one another.
the love of God from another has often humbled me to the point of absolute awe.
because i recognize it with my spirit from HIM.
it is all about HIM , if not than yep it is arrogance.
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Jeaniam
Well said pond and no, you don't write like an idiot.
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