Ohmigosh! My old friend from, dare I say it? WAYDALE DAYS? Shhh....Has it been that long?
To answer your question, maybe the love (and mercy, which I can't seperate from love) that we give out, is what we receive in the end? My own opinion is that God is Love, and we are created in His Image and Likeness. I think I've read that somewhere in the Bible, in a past life.
Maybe, I don't know, I'm still testing the waters, but maybe, we have a much bigger capacity to LOVE, than we think we have? And maybe, just a thought, but maybe we will be measured some day by how much we gave? Could it be, that that's how much we will get back? And much, much more, just knowing how God is.....
Greetings! Was I a sock when you posted? I think I was!
Very very interesting question. Welcome "back", by the way.
One observation - defining "agape" as unconditional "love" is a little limiting, IMO. Using that as a definiton, or the longer one the Way taught, doesn't capture the whole of what it means to love, be it any of the greek words (agape/phileo/eros). It's a part of it, but tends to be too flat in and of itself. It needs some meat on them bones, some rubber where it's hitting the road.
Other stuff Jesus said about love -
You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Paul also said -
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
Those things do have some traction, I think. To love in this way could be described as "godly", or "divine". It certainly seems to be of a higher level than the normal things that run through our minds a lot of the time. But when we're at our best, as parents to our children, caretakers to our families, contributors to our communities - when we're doing it more than saying it, it's very attainable, very human, almost normal. Demanding, yes.
I picture it as - to aspire to these kinds of things, to attempt to think or be that way is to live as if everyone deserves to be treated so. At some point, everyone does. Or did. Or could someday. Maybe.
It's a little corny, very much idealistic, but for me it's to see the essence of the value of another human as the life they have. That commodity is rare and precious. Only those who have it, do. When it's gone, it's gone, period and nothing replaces it. Life in and of itself is something incredibly hard to imagine, I certainly can't really imagine what it would be like to not be alive. But - we know at some point that's coming.
Given that we may or may not be coming back this way again, it doesn't seem unreasonable to leave the best tracks we can. If nothing else, something that would be worthwhile remembered or found, if anyone were to look.
Welcome back, Shifra. Interesting topic – defining agape. I don’t think TWI’s definition "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household” [even if you drop “in the household”] ever did anything for me…Something that I do wonder about – is that there appears to be an assumption on Jesus’ part about the comprehension level of His audience. He’d throw out certain terms and phrases with an expectation that folks already knew what they meant – like love, forgive, pray, etc.
I don’t think it’s a matter of Him “redefining” particular words – but maybe it’s more like He provided vivid tutorials of these words in a practical context – either by parables or His living example. When someone asked Him to elaborate on the commandment to love thy neighbor they asked Him to define “neighbor.” He showed a neighbor to be someone in need and love springing into action to meet that need in the passage of the Good Samaritan.
…And thinking about your statement, “To me it seems that this level of love far exceeds the love of self, and as Jesus taught we are to love our neighbors AS OURSELVES. Agape implies self-sacrifice - and beyond” – the Greek word used in “love your neighbor as yourself” is agape. I dunno – maybe it’s splitting hairs – I’m thinking agape is love that is not self-centered rather than saying it implies self-sacrifice. It looks to me like Jesus assumed people already love themselves – and expects us to use that as a template for how to love others. In other words “love your neighbor AS YOU ALREADY LOVE yourself.” I am not sacrificing myself – just not focusing on myself. So maybe it’s love that doesn’t stay self-centered – rather like being centered or starting from the self and moving outwards towards others.
Those things do have some traction, I think. To love in this way could be described as "godly", or "divine". It certainly seems to be of a higher level than the normal things that run through our minds a lot of the time. But when we're at our best, as parents to our children, caretakers to our families, contributors to our communities - when we're doing it more than saying it, it's very attainable, very human, almost normal. Demanding, yes.
This statement makes a lot of sense to me. In being parents (good ones, not the abusive kind) and in taking care of our families is where we really see love in action. This is a self-sacrificing love, sometimes with very little in return (at least at some points.) I have heard many men say that they never really knew what love was until they had a child.
Welcome, Shifra! How do you like your coffee? I'll buy!
I remember a time when 'in the household' was not a part of the definition of agape, so that must have come later. In 1 Peter 1:22 it says "Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love each other with a pure heart fervently:". In the first part of this verse the word 'love' and the word 'purified' are the words 'phileo' and 'hagnizo' respectively and refer to human qualities or efforts. In the second part of the verse the words 'pure' and 'love' are the words 'katharos' and 'agape' respectively and refer to qualities that are reserved to God. To me this verse suggests that the people to whom Peter was writing had already gone as far as they could go on a human level and now needed to go on to love on a spiritual level. In 2 Peter 1:5-7 it says "And besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to
godliness brotherly kindness (phileo); and to brotherly kindness (phileo) charity (agape)". It suggests that there is a process that begins with faith (the new birth or believing) and ends with agape that believers need to go through to, as it says in verse 8, "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall niether be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ". So I would conclude from these two places in the Bible as well as 1 Cor. 13 that agape does not represent arrogance but is probably a quality or level of love that we need God's help to attain.
In any family or group/community, the very young, the very old and the very ill require more care from others than they can return to that family or community.
With children there is the hope they will mature and be a contributing member of the family or community. Maybe the sick will get better...but the old, they are going to die.
In my view, taking care of those members of a family require values like duty, responsibility, and love is the fuel that makes it happen, that motivates someone to care for their young, or sick or aged, those who may never turn around and do the same for you. I would say that is a higher form of love.
In TWI's renewed mind love, it was twisted. Those that needed the most could be abandoned and that would be 'love,' some beyond the rational 'spiritual' love that meant you didn't have to get your hands dirty. (Not young children, though there was certainly an amount of impatience over their needs)-- but elderly and sick were on their own in many instances. Once you could no longer hold together some illusion of super blessed perfection...
My husband doesn't talk much about TWI, even though he was in many years longer than I was. He said once,"Well, they sure gave a new definition of love."
I knew you folks would have some views about this. Thanks!
I liked your note about Jesus assuming that we already loved ourselves, when he told us to love our neighbors as ourselves, T-Bone. Maybe things were different in that culture, because honestly I don't know of many people who love themselves. Especially Christians. Especially Christians influenced by TWI. It is as though we are to love everyone else FIRST.
About loving our enemies - well, how far does that go? There are no parameters included in this directive from JC. And because of this, it is Agape love, right? The love of God. God's love. Are we really able to love like God does?
Likewise, we are told to turn the other cheek, and to forgive seventy times seven. OK, so if we are loving ourselves as - in the same way as - or - to an equal degree as - our neighbors, then we must forgive ourselves seventy times seven too, right? And if we become our own enemy, we are still supposed to love ourselves, right? Christians don't do that. We read Dr. Phil or get drunk or do confession at the beauty parlor.
I believe that we Christians were never taught to love ourselves, so the second commandment is not something we automatically comprehend. This understanding was probably different in Jesus' time.
And I think when we try to love as much as God loves us, we will fail. I think the apostle Paul screwed this Agape stuff all up, or maybe it was VPW, or Walt Disney, or my dad.
I think, when Jesus said, love your neighbor as yourself, it was in a sense of, when I make an error or mistake or do something wrong, I know, that even though I did the wrong, I am still a decent person - I don't hate my whole being. We all, cut ourselves some slack so to speak. Thus, we can "love" our neighbor as ourselves - we may not like what he did, but we don't hate him. We still desire what is good for him.
Agape can't be based on our human emotions. When we think of love, usually there's an emotion to it, we think of Phileo, affection or eros - it provokes a response in us.
Whereas, I think Agape, is not based on our human feelings of "love." It is more of, greatly desiring the greatest good for that person or thing. You want to see the greatest good, or blessings happen to someone - as God does. You see through his eyes so to speak.
C.S. Lewis wrote a great book on this called "The Four Loves." Available on Amazon.
I think where we get hung up as humans is thinking its an emotion we're supposed to be feeling for those we do not know.
Jesus wept for those who God had given him (Lazarus) and loved God's people, but knew what was in man's heart (wickedness) and did not give himself over to man, and was not all lovey-dovey to those who hated God - or towards the average Joe on the street. He healed them, willed their total healing and greatest good and had great desire for Israel to return to God, but he saved and opened his heart to his disciples - those closest to him.
As for Christ turning the other cheek, the context is if you are insulted.
He also told us to hate evil. We are to be wise as serpents, harmless as doves.
I think it sometimes comes down to, do unto others as you would do to yourself.
I think the apostle Paul screwed this Agape stuff all up, or maybe it was VPW, or Walt Disney, or my dad.
Shifra
I can't speak concerning your dad. And I'll pass on Walt and VP, for now. But I'm certain that Paul knew what he was talking about. Agape is spiritual. Just as the natural man cannot know the things of the spirit, neither can he exhibit agape. But those that have the spirit of God CAN. That doesn't mean that they WILL, of course, just that God has enabled them to do so.
welcome back schwaigers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (((((((((((((((((( hugs ))))))))))))))))))))
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
You said that you don't ''see Christians loving themselves''.
Maybe you see lots that have depression or ''issues'.
I see many of them ''loving themselves''.
It is NOT a self esteem issue Jesus was talking about.
We all get down on ourselves from time to time.
It is a daily, neccessity of life issue He was trying to compare.
Do you get up and brush your teeth, wash your face, get dressed and eat breakfast????????
Even the most down in the dumps person takes care of the basics. Not many forgo these things.
If you do, then, in essense, YOU LOVE YOURSELF.
So, if this is the LOVE that Jesus was talking about.................
Then, the question is...............
Am I truly "LOVING others , as I LOVE MySELf?"
I make sure I feed my face 3 (or more) times a day. Wouldn't think of anything less *unless I am fasting*
It has little to do with how wonderful(or not) I am , and everything to do with how much I am giving to others.
my 2 cents
Oh, and I try really hard to forget ALL WAY terminology. I started from scratch...............I literally itch all over when I hear ''in the household''...................................................
Agape--means unconditional love--the kind of Love that Heavenly Father extends to me when I ask for forgivness for the 12,358,269,546,213,256 time for being arrogant, critical, and nasty toward my fellow man.
Does GOd think that anyone but Jesus Christ is ever going to get it 100% right all the time? I doubt it.
However, we are admonished to follow in Christ's footsteps. It doesn't say that on occassion we won't loose the trail, but what it does say is that when we do loose the trail we seek and find it again and trudge onward.
Reality --- the more often we practice "love your neighbor as you love yourself" the more often that we will experience agape love and the easier it will become to continue to practice it and it will become easier to stay on the trail and not get lost.
About loving our enemies - well, how far does that go? There are no parameters included in this directive from JC. And because of this, it is Agape love, right? The love of God. God's love. Are we really able to love like God does?
The question is very good, very honest. I love it! no pun intended. I have made the statement at times, that if I could do some of this stuff just ONCE I'd be happy, game over, let's have some fireworks.
We had a discussion going on the topic of forgiveness couple years ago, where I had to say that this particular thing is one of the most difficult things to do, and seemingly near impossible. So I would wonder why Jesus would even bother. Look at the world he lived in as it is today in the middle east. It's an old joke, heard somewhere, can't remember the whole thing, but the punch line goes "what a surprise those guys in the middle east are ticked off. Who ever heard of a Muslim holding a grudge?"
Or a Christian. Or a tree hugging Environmentalist. It does seem to be the human way, ingrained in the nature of life. Hurt, hurts. Pain is experienced, endured, requires healing. Later it's remembered. It's just the way it is. Why even consider forgiving something and trying to "love", that's already over and done with? If it really ever is?
Jesus explains the nature of God's "love" in action right in that verse though:
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get
Sun goes up, sun goes down. Rain falls, ground gets wet. That the world goes the way it does day after day is "God's business" Jesus says. What we do with those things is our business. And as we know even the sunniest day can be the path of darkness for someone who chooses that way.
Can we be like that? Good question, and some thought provoking stuff. Here.
I knew you folks would have some views about this. Thanks!
I liked your note about Jesus assuming that we already loved ourselves, when he told us to love our neighbors as ourselves, T-Bone. Maybe things were different in that culture, because honestly I don't know of many people who love themselves. Especially Christians. Especially Christians influenced by TWI. It is as though we are to love everyone else FIRST.
About loving our enemies - well, how far does that go? There are no parameters included in this directive from JC. And because of this, it is Agape love, right? The love of God. God's love. Are we really able to love like God does?
And I think when we try to love as much as God loves us, we will fail. I think the apostle Paul screwed this Agape stuff all up, or maybe it was VPW, or Walt Disney, or my dad.
Yes, we are able to love like God does. God has too much sense to tell us to do something if He knows full well that we can't do it. He knows we can do it because along with the instruction, He also gave us the ability to fulfill the instruction.
Certainly, we will fail. That's part of being human. God doesn't expect us to do it perfectly; that's what He sent His Son for: to do it perfectly in our place, because He already knew we couldn't. He DOES expect us to do it faithfully; to keep on picking ourselves up when we fail, and keep on trudging on.
I think it's notable that not only did Christ on the cross ask God to forgive the men who crucified him but so did Stephen, when he was being stoned to death, intercede for the men who were stoning him; and that group of men included Saul who went on to become the Apostle Paul. So, agape love involves loving when there may be nothing in for ourselves and, also when we have no idea what the whole profit is.
BTW, Sunesis, great post. I may have underestimated you. Mea culpa
I don't think I have explained myself well. Let me try again. Look at Excathedra's list of things that Agape is made of:
On the "do" side --
Agape is patient
Agape is kind
Agape protects
Agape trusts
Agape hopes
Agape perseveres
On the "don't do" side --
Agape does not envy
Agape does not boast
Agape has no pride
Agape is not rude
Agape is not self-seeking
Agape is not easily angered
Agape doesn not keep a record of wrongs
Now, read the list again, and think about it as a job description for the PERFECT candidate to recruit into a cult.
Or think about it as the understood rules within an abusive home.
In the context of Corps Training, for example, I personally protected, trusted, hoped, and persevered to the point of insanity! Any pride and self-seeking which I might have had, were stripped from me immediately, and stayed stripped. It is only those victims of TWI abuse who actuallydid keep a record of the wrongs done to them (and reported these to the law), who finally de-throned LCM !!!
And think about this: We were all taught that God is our father, and we are his kids. Well, would a loving father have these expectations of his kid? I'm a parent too, and I WANT my kids to seek themselves, to be proud, and to NOT trust every goofball who comes along, or to protect the creeps who are harming them. People who comply in this way ... are just sick.
Now, I left a couple of Agape ingredients out of this recipe. The biblical list says that Agape rejoices in the truth, and never fails. These two objectives are the basis of my consideration that maybe we humans can't really do this stuff anyhow, and that Agape is really exclusively a God-thing. Lord knows that if we had truly rejoiced in the truth, we wouldn't have stuck around very long in TWI. Besides, none of us really knows the whole truth, although we keep trying. And ... obviously ... as humans ... we do fail. Otherwise, God wouldn't have sent Jesus to patch us up.
So, what I'm saying is that I think Agape has been used as a law and a trap by TWI and others, and when we swallow it hook line and sinker, it's a long trip home.
I'm certainly no theologian, but I think the TWI definition of just about everything was bogus. If we are to love with the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household" does that mean that we don't have to love anyone with the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation who is NOT in the household? Sure seemed that way to me, especially in the Martindale administration.
I'm not even sure any more I believe that I am solely responsible to "renew my mind". If God gave Saul a new heart, maybe He does that for others. I've actually asked God to help me with this and He has, via Holy Spirit.
Shifra, I personally have found myself listening to other Christian sources besides TWI and it can be helpful. You have to be careful, true, but I know personally I tended to over-examine, too minutely, everything that is not in "perfect alignment and flawless harmony" with TWI-talk. It's pretty shocking to realize that no, I don't have all the answers, and no, I'm not better than your average Joe Believer because I've had this class and that seminar, and the other advance 50 times running.
I've learned a lot of stuff that has been quite wonderful, but like I say, I'm no theologian, and I generally don't like nitpicking - I really don't care how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. But I hope this humble rambling helps.
Oh and to make a short story long, no I personally don't think I can love exactly like God loves. That's why I'm not God and He is.
...And I think when we try to love as much as God loves us, we will fail. I think the apostle Paul screwed this Agape stuff all up, or maybe it was VPW, or Walt Disney, or my dad...
I think there’s a lot in what you say…Maybe we do have the capacity [at least to a certain degree – as finite beings] to love as God loves us because we were made in God’s likeness. Maybe that is why God expects us to follow the two great commandments – we were designed for that purpose. When we fail – perhaps it’s our sinful nature throwing a wrench in things – holding us back from operating at full potential.
I think maybe where VPW screwed things up was in his intellectual/dispensational approach to agape. As I said in post 7, Jesus provided vivid tutorials of the way to do things – by what He said and did. [i’m just thinking out loud here] for the Christian, Jesus’ teachings/works become a user manual on how to experience the truth personally. But it doesn’t stop there [at the intellectual level]– as if it were an academic thing. The book becomes a springboard to an encounter with Him.
I think true Christianity is about the dynamic relationship with our Lord and the Bible as merely a means to that end [developing that relationship with Him]. In my opinion, VPW’s work focused more on his pet Bible doctrines than on developing a relationship with the Lord. Between that and the dispensational cold-shoulder he gave the gospels – there was little that encouraged followers to live the love that Jesus invites us to experience. The epistles are great – one of my favorite books is Romans. But nothing gets my mind tracking with my Lord’s idea of love than reading the gospels. Sure – Christian living starts out at an intellectual level – but at some point it graduates, deepens as our hearts engage the truth personally – which is to say we engage our Lord personally.
I was sitting here, eating breakfast and decided to go back to the computer to add a few thoughts about how TWI ignored the Gospels, because I too think this is related to the Agape issues. I checked the GS thread, and ... wow! ... you had already posted this very thing!
I think this would be a great topic for a thread of its own. Wanna start a new topic?
And Watered Garden, thanks for the welcome. I've missed all of you.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
19
23
28
37
Popular Days
May 31
33
May 30
27
Jun 1
16
May 18
16
Top Posters In This Topic
johniam 19 posts
Bramble 23 posts
pond 28 posts
Jeaniam 37 posts
Popular Days
May 31 2007
33 posts
May 30 2007
27 posts
Jun 1 2007
16 posts
May 18 2007
16 posts
SafariVista
Well Ms. Shifra~
Honestly, I don't know the answers.... but I AM so very glad to see you again, and hope you enjoy your new self here! ^_^
Edited by SafariVistaLink to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
First round's on me....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ex10
Ohmigosh! My old friend from, dare I say it? WAYDALE DAYS? Shhh....Has it been that long?
To answer your question, maybe the love (and mercy, which I can't seperate from love) that we give out, is what we receive in the end? My own opinion is that God is Love, and we are created in His Image and Likeness. I think I've read that somewhere in the Bible, in a past life.
Maybe, I don't know, I'm still testing the waters, but maybe, we have a much bigger capacity to LOVE, than we think we have? And maybe, just a thought, but maybe we will be measured some day by how much we gave? Could it be, that that's how much we will get back? And much, much more, just knowing how God is.....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
I can agree with that statement, as long as the last three words are deleted.
The entire world should be our *household*, not just one select group.
(My IMO)
:)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
Greetings! Was I a sock when you posted? I think I was!
Very very interesting question. Welcome "back", by the way.
One observation - defining "agape" as unconditional "love" is a little limiting, IMO. Using that as a definiton, or the longer one the Way taught, doesn't capture the whole of what it means to love, be it any of the greek words (agape/phileo/eros). It's a part of it, but tends to be too flat in and of itself. It needs some meat on them bones, some rubber where it's hitting the road.
Other stuff Jesus said about love -
You have heard that it was said, 'Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get?
Paul also said -
Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails.
Those things do have some traction, I think. To love in this way could be described as "godly", or "divine". It certainly seems to be of a higher level than the normal things that run through our minds a lot of the time. But when we're at our best, as parents to our children, caretakers to our families, contributors to our communities - when we're doing it more than saying it, it's very attainable, very human, almost normal. Demanding, yes.
I picture it as - to aspire to these kinds of things, to attempt to think or be that way is to live as if everyone deserves to be treated so. At some point, everyone does. Or did. Or could someday. Maybe.
It's a little corny, very much idealistic, but for me it's to see the essence of the value of another human as the life they have. That commodity is rare and precious. Only those who have it, do. When it's gone, it's gone, period and nothing replaces it. Life in and of itself is something incredibly hard to imagine, I certainly can't really imagine what it would be like to not be alive. But - we know at some point that's coming.
Given that we may or may not be coming back this way again, it doesn't seem unreasonable to leave the best tracks we can. If nothing else, something that would be worthwhile remembered or found, if anyone were to look.
Edited by socksLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
Welcome back, Shifra. Interesting topic – defining agape. I don’t think TWI’s definition "the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household” [even if you drop “in the household”] ever did anything for me…Something that I do wonder about – is that there appears to be an assumption on Jesus’ part about the comprehension level of His audience. He’d throw out certain terms and phrases with an expectation that folks already knew what they meant – like love, forgive, pray, etc.
I don’t think it’s a matter of Him “redefining” particular words – but maybe it’s more like He provided vivid tutorials of these words in a practical context – either by parables or His living example. When someone asked Him to elaborate on the commandment to love thy neighbor they asked Him to define “neighbor.” He showed a neighbor to be someone in need and love springing into action to meet that need in the passage of the Good Samaritan.
…And thinking about your statement, “To me it seems that this level of love far exceeds the love of self, and as Jesus taught we are to love our neighbors AS OURSELVES. Agape implies self-sacrifice - and beyond” – the Greek word used in “love your neighbor as yourself” is agape. I dunno – maybe it’s splitting hairs – I’m thinking agape is love that is not self-centered rather than saying it implies self-sacrifice. It looks to me like Jesus assumed people already love themselves – and expects us to use that as a template for how to love others. In other words “love your neighbor AS YOU ALREADY LOVE yourself.” I am not sacrificing myself – just not focusing on myself. So maybe it’s love that doesn’t stay self-centered – rather like being centered or starting from the self and moving outwards towards others.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JavaJane
This statement makes a lot of sense to me. In being parents (good ones, not the abusive kind) and in taking care of our families is where we really see love in action. This is a self-sacrificing love, sometimes with very little in return (at least at some points.) I have heard many men say that they never really knew what love was until they had a child.
Welcome, Shifra! How do you like your coffee? I'll buy!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jeaniam
I remember a time when 'in the household' was not a part of the definition of agape, so that must have come later. In 1 Peter 1:22 it says "Seeing you have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love each other with a pure heart fervently:". In the first part of this verse the word 'love' and the word 'purified' are the words 'phileo' and 'hagnizo' respectively and refer to human qualities or efforts. In the second part of the verse the words 'pure' and 'love' are the words 'katharos' and 'agape' respectively and refer to qualities that are reserved to God. To me this verse suggests that the people to whom Peter was writing had already gone as far as they could go on a human level and now needed to go on to love on a spiritual level. In 2 Peter 1:5-7 it says "And besides this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; and to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; and to
godliness brotherly kindness (phileo); and to brotherly kindness (phileo) charity (agape)". It suggests that there is a process that begins with faith (the new birth or believing) and ends with agape that believers need to go through to, as it says in verse 8, "For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall niether be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ". So I would conclude from these two places in the Bible as well as 1 Cor. 13 that agape does not represent arrogance but is probably a quality or level of love that we need God's help to attain.
BTW, good post T-bone. Food for thought.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bramble
In any family or group/community, the very young, the very old and the very ill require more care from others than they can return to that family or community.
With children there is the hope they will mature and be a contributing member of the family or community. Maybe the sick will get better...but the old, they are going to die.
In my view, taking care of those members of a family require values like duty, responsibility, and love is the fuel that makes it happen, that motivates someone to care for their young, or sick or aged, those who may never turn around and do the same for you. I would say that is a higher form of love.
In TWI's renewed mind love, it was twisted. Those that needed the most could be abandoned and that would be 'love,' some beyond the rational 'spiritual' love that meant you didn't have to get your hands dirty. (Not young children, though there was certainly an amount of impatience over their needs)-- but elderly and sick were on their own in many instances. Once you could no longer hold together some illusion of super blessed perfection...
My husband doesn't talk much about TWI, even though he was in many years longer than I was. He said once,"Well, they sure gave a new definition of love."
Which pretty much summed up our experience.
Shifra, nice to see your smiling face.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shifra
I knew you folks would have some views about this. Thanks!
I liked your note about Jesus assuming that we already loved ourselves, when he told us to love our neighbors as ourselves, T-Bone. Maybe things were different in that culture, because honestly I don't know of many people who love themselves. Especially Christians. Especially Christians influenced by TWI. It is as though we are to love everyone else FIRST.
About loving our enemies - well, how far does that go? There are no parameters included in this directive from JC. And because of this, it is Agape love, right? The love of God. God's love. Are we really able to love like God does?
Likewise, we are told to turn the other cheek, and to forgive seventy times seven. OK, so if we are loving ourselves as - in the same way as - or - to an equal degree as - our neighbors, then we must forgive ourselves seventy times seven too, right? And if we become our own enemy, we are still supposed to love ourselves, right? Christians don't do that. We read Dr. Phil or get drunk or do confession at the beauty parlor.
I believe that we Christians were never taught to love ourselves, so the second commandment is not something we automatically comprehend. This understanding was probably different in Jesus' time.
And I think when we try to love as much as God loves us, we will fail. I think the apostle Paul screwed this Agape stuff all up, or maybe it was VPW, or Walt Disney, or my dad.
Shifra
Link to comment
Share on other sites
WordWolf
I always found twi's definition to be soulless and convey no understanding, even without
"in the household" added.
The definition I used worked with what I found in the Bible.
Agape is the Love of God, or the Love from God, either demonstrated by God Himself
or someone else as made available by God.
That's how I called it.
"Agape is the Love of God, or the Love from God."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Sunesis
I think, when Jesus said, love your neighbor as yourself, it was in a sense of, when I make an error or mistake or do something wrong, I know, that even though I did the wrong, I am still a decent person - I don't hate my whole being. We all, cut ourselves some slack so to speak. Thus, we can "love" our neighbor as ourselves - we may not like what he did, but we don't hate him. We still desire what is good for him.
Agape can't be based on our human emotions. When we think of love, usually there's an emotion to it, we think of Phileo, affection or eros - it provokes a response in us.
Whereas, I think Agape, is not based on our human feelings of "love." It is more of, greatly desiring the greatest good for that person or thing. You want to see the greatest good, or blessings happen to someone - as God does. You see through his eyes so to speak.
C.S. Lewis wrote a great book on this called "The Four Loves." Available on Amazon.
I think where we get hung up as humans is thinking its an emotion we're supposed to be feeling for those we do not know.
Jesus wept for those who God had given him (Lazarus) and loved God's people, but knew what was in man's heart (wickedness) and did not give himself over to man, and was not all lovey-dovey to those who hated God - or towards the average Joe on the street. He healed them, willed their total healing and greatest good and had great desire for Israel to return to God, but he saved and opened his heart to his disciples - those closest to him.
As for Christ turning the other cheek, the context is if you are insulted.
He also told us to hate evil. We are to be wise as serpents, harmless as doves.
I think it sometimes comes down to, do unto others as you would do to yourself.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
GeorgeStGeorge
I can't speak concerning your dad. And I'll pass on Walt and VP, for now. But I'm certain that Paul knew what he was talking about. Agape is spiritual. Just as the natural man cannot know the things of the spirit, neither can he exhibit agape. But those that have the spirit of God CAN. That doesn't mean that they WILL, of course, just that God has enabled them to do so.
George
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
welcome back schwaigers !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (((((((((((((((((( hugs ))))))))))))))))))))
THAT is something !!!!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
polar bear
Welcome Shifra-good topic.
I know twi doesn't have a clue as to what agape love is. In fact the "in the household" part contradicts what agape love is.
I agree with most here. It's not an emotional love, or you do something for me then I will do something for you love.
I don't think God wants us to be taken advantage of, or allow ourselves to be taken advantage of.
It's not something we have to do to get favor, we do it because we want to. I don't think God expects us to be perfect at it.
We just do our best, we love because He loved us.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bliss
Welcome Shifra~~~~!
You said that you don't ''see Christians loving themselves''.
Maybe you see lots that have depression or ''issues'.
I see many of them ''loving themselves''.
It is NOT a self esteem issue Jesus was talking about.
We all get down on ourselves from time to time.
It is a daily, neccessity of life issue He was trying to compare.
Do you get up and brush your teeth, wash your face, get dressed and eat breakfast????????
Even the most down in the dumps person takes care of the basics. Not many forgo these things.
If you do, then, in essense, YOU LOVE YOURSELF.
So, if this is the LOVE that Jesus was talking about.................
Then, the question is...............
Am I truly "LOVING others , as I LOVE MySELf?"
I make sure I feed my face 3 (or more) times a day. Wouldn't think of anything less *unless I am fasting*
It has little to do with how wonderful(or not) I am , and everything to do with how much I am giving to others.
my 2 cents
Oh, and I try really hard to forget ALL WAY terminology. I started from scratch...............I literally itch all over when I hear ''in the household''...................................................
Link to comment
Share on other sites
templelady
Back on Waydale I posted as "Maure"
Agape--means unconditional love--the kind of Love that Heavenly Father extends to me when I ask for forgivness for the 12,358,269,546,213,256 time for being arrogant, critical, and nasty toward my fellow man.
Does GOd think that anyone but Jesus Christ is ever going to get it 100% right all the time? I doubt it.
However, we are admonished to follow in Christ's footsteps. It doesn't say that on occassion we won't loose the trail, but what it does say is that when we do loose the trail we seek and find it again and trudge onward.
Reality --- the more often we practice "love your neighbor as you love yourself" the more often that we will experience agape love and the easier it will become to continue to practice it and it will become easier to stay on the trail and not get lost.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
socks
The question is very good, very honest. I love it! no pun intended. I have made the statement at times, that if I could do some of this stuff just ONCE I'd be happy, game over, let's have some fireworks.
We had a discussion going on the topic of forgiveness couple years ago, where I had to say that this particular thing is one of the most difficult things to do, and seemingly near impossible. So I would wonder why Jesus would even bother. Look at the world he lived in as it is today in the middle east. It's an old joke, heard somewhere, can't remember the whole thing, but the punch line goes "what a surprise those guys in the middle east are ticked off. Who ever heard of a Muslim holding a grudge?"
Or a Christian. Or a tree hugging Environmentalist. It does seem to be the human way, ingrained in the nature of life. Hurt, hurts. Pain is experienced, endured, requires healing. Later it's remembered. It's just the way it is. Why even consider forgiving something and trying to "love", that's already over and done with? If it really ever is?
Jesus explains the nature of God's "love" in action right in that verse though:
He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get
Sun goes up, sun goes down. Rain falls, ground gets wet. That the world goes the way it does day after day is "God's business" Jesus says. What we do with those things is our business. And as we know even the sunniest day can be the path of darkness for someone who chooses that way.
Can we be like that? Good question, and some thought provoking stuff. Here.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Jeaniam
Yes, we are able to love like God does. God has too much sense to tell us to do something if He knows full well that we can't do it. He knows we can do it because along with the instruction, He also gave us the ability to fulfill the instruction.
Certainly, we will fail. That's part of being human. God doesn't expect us to do it perfectly; that's what He sent His Son for: to do it perfectly in our place, because He already knew we couldn't. He DOES expect us to do it faithfully; to keep on picking ourselves up when we fail, and keep on trudging on.
I think it's notable that not only did Christ on the cross ask God to forgive the men who crucified him but so did Stephen, when he was being stoned to death, intercede for the men who were stoning him; and that group of men included Saul who went on to become the Apostle Paul. So, agape love involves loving when there may be nothing in for ourselves and, also when we have no idea what the whole profit is.
BTW, Sunesis, great post. I may have underestimated you. Mea culpa
Edited by JeaniamLink to comment
Share on other sites
Shifra
I don't think I have explained myself well. Let me try again. Look at Excathedra's list of things that Agape is made of:
On the "do" side --
Agape is patient
Agape is kind
Agape protects
Agape trusts
Agape hopes
Agape perseveres
On the "don't do" side --
Agape does not envy
Agape does not boast
Agape has no pride
Agape is not rude
Agape is not self-seeking
Agape is not easily angered
Agape doesn not keep a record of wrongs
Now, read the list again, and think about it as a job description for the PERFECT candidate to recruit into a cult.
Or think about it as the understood rules within an abusive home.
In the context of Corps Training, for example, I personally protected, trusted, hoped, and persevered to the point of insanity! Any pride and self-seeking which I might have had, were stripped from me immediately, and stayed stripped. It is only those victims of TWI abuse who actuallydid keep a record of the wrongs done to them (and reported these to the law), who finally de-throned LCM !!!
And think about this: We were all taught that God is our father, and we are his kids. Well, would a loving father have these expectations of his kid? I'm a parent too, and I WANT my kids to seek themselves, to be proud, and to NOT trust every goofball who comes along, or to protect the creeps who are harming them. People who comply in this way ... are just sick.
Now, I left a couple of Agape ingredients out of this recipe. The biblical list says that Agape rejoices in the truth, and never fails. These two objectives are the basis of my consideration that maybe we humans can't really do this stuff anyhow, and that Agape is really exclusively a God-thing. Lord knows that if we had truly rejoiced in the truth, we wouldn't have stuck around very long in TWI. Besides, none of us really knows the whole truth, although we keep trying. And ... obviously ... as humans ... we do fail. Otherwise, God wouldn't have sent Jesus to patch us up.
So, what I'm saying is that I think Agape has been used as a law and a trap by TWI and others, and when we swallow it hook line and sinker, it's a long trip home.
Shifra
Edited by ShifraLink to comment
Share on other sites
Watered Garden
I'm certainly no theologian, but I think the TWI definition of just about everything was bogus. If we are to love with the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation in the household" does that mean that we don't have to love anyone with the love of God in the renewed mind in manifestation who is NOT in the household? Sure seemed that way to me, especially in the Martindale administration.
I'm not even sure any more I believe that I am solely responsible to "renew my mind". If God gave Saul a new heart, maybe He does that for others. I've actually asked God to help me with this and He has, via Holy Spirit.
Shifra, I personally have found myself listening to other Christian sources besides TWI and it can be helpful. You have to be careful, true, but I know personally I tended to over-examine, too minutely, everything that is not in "perfect alignment and flawless harmony" with TWI-talk. It's pretty shocking to realize that no, I don't have all the answers, and no, I'm not better than your average Joe Believer because I've had this class and that seminar, and the other advance 50 times running.
I've learned a lot of stuff that has been quite wonderful, but like I say, I'm no theologian, and I generally don't like nitpicking - I really don't care how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. But I hope this humble rambling helps.
Oh and to make a short story long, no I personally don't think I can love exactly like God loves. That's why I'm not God and He is.
Love ya and welcome back,
WG
Edited by Watered GardenLink to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I think there’s a lot in what you say…Maybe we do have the capacity [at least to a certain degree – as finite beings] to love as God loves us because we were made in God’s likeness. Maybe that is why God expects us to follow the two great commandments – we were designed for that purpose. When we fail – perhaps it’s our sinful nature throwing a wrench in things – holding us back from operating at full potential.
I think maybe where VPW screwed things up was in his intellectual/dispensational approach to agape. As I said in post 7, Jesus provided vivid tutorials of the way to do things – by what He said and did. [i’m just thinking out loud here] for the Christian, Jesus’ teachings/works become a user manual on how to experience the truth personally. But it doesn’t stop there [at the intellectual level]– as if it were an academic thing. The book becomes a springboard to an encounter with Him.
I think true Christianity is about the dynamic relationship with our Lord and the Bible as merely a means to that end [developing that relationship with Him]. In my opinion, VPW’s work focused more on his pet Bible doctrines than on developing a relationship with the Lord. Between that and the dispensational cold-shoulder he gave the gospels – there was little that encouraged followers to live the love that Jesus invites us to experience. The epistles are great – one of my favorite books is Romans. But nothing gets my mind tracking with my Lord’s idea of love than reading the gospels. Sure – Christian living starts out at an intellectual level – but at some point it graduates, deepens as our hearts engage the truth personally – which is to say we engage our Lord personally.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Shifra
T-Bone,
I was sitting here, eating breakfast and decided to go back to the computer to add a few thoughts about how TWI ignored the Gospels, because I too think this is related to the Agape issues. I checked the GS thread, and ... wow! ... you had already posted this very thing!
I think this would be a great topic for a thread of its own. Wanna start a new topic?
And Watered Garden, thanks for the welcome. I've missed all of you.
Shifra
Link to comment
Share on other sites
bowtwi
So good to see you again, Shifra! Welcome back!
Awesome discussion!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.