Inductive reasoning can be used for a valid proof, but cannot be used for everything.
Usually it is a lot easier to disprove than to prove. "believing always works.."
all you have to show is only ONE counter example.
"the bible fits like a hand in a glove, not a single contradiction"
even the old vicmeister acknowledged that it you found even ONE discrepency, then his theory was flawed. But instead of accepting apparent "defeat" he forced a lot of contradicting scriptures to conform.
Why does this thread matter? Well because for some reason I took this class and quit thinking for a long time. There is a certain stubbornness within me to know in detail why and how something this major affected me to such a degree. I am tempted to believe it’s my fault and I am just not that smart to begin with, but deep down inside I really don’t believe that.
It didn’t happen by magic. I used to read on Waydale concerns about brainwashing. I don’t think that’s it either. To a degree it was mishandling the Bible, but that was just the subject. It was HOW it was presented (the overall framework) that is the real problem.
Btw, this class was presented as a class on keys. I think locks is more appropriate. And, for something that was supposed to be so perfect and flawless, well it was certainly lacking in even basic logic.
Wordwolf. You really hit on something (see below). I would just throw in that example of the man with the withered arm who was healed by Jesus. This was supposed to support need and want parallel (no way did it do that). However, later on, vp tells us how he heals someone with a withered arm in a train station….
This is a quote from Wikipedia (emphasis mine).
“Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay. The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Anecdotal evidence is often unscientific because it cannot be investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization). Anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; statistical evidence can more accurately determine how typical something is.
When used in advertising or promotion of a product, service, or idea, anecdotal evidence is often called a testimonial and is banned in some jurisdictions. The term is also sometimes used in a legal context to describe certain kinds of testimony. Psychologists have found that people are more likely to remember notable examples than typical examples.
A common way anecdotal evidence becomes unscientific is through fallacious reasoning such as the post hoc fallacy, the human tendency to assume that if one event happens after another, then the first must be the cause of the second. Another fallacy involves inductive reasoning. For instance, if an anecdote illustrates a desired conclusion rather than a logical conclusion, it is considered a faulty or hasty generalization. [8] For example, here is anecdotal evidence presented as proof of a desired conclusion:
"There's abundant proof that God exists and is still performing miracles today. Just last week I read about a girl who was dying of cancer. Her whole family went to church and prayed for her, and she was cured."
Anecdotes like this are very powerful persuaders, but they don't prove anything in a scientific or logical sense. [9] The child may have become better anyway and this could be an example also of the regressive fallacy. Anecdotal evidence cannot be distinguished from placebo effects.”
I would like to say that science and religion don’t necessarily mix and my point is not that everything needs to be proven scientifically. My point is to identify faulty reason within a class and ministry that supposedly specialized in the truth. It is not possible to arrive at truth using sloppy reasoning skills except by accident.
I think there was at least a little logic in twi.. there had to be to attract the more intellectual crowd. But so much of the argument was circular in nature.
Circular reasoning uses elements of the theory itself to reach the conclusion. "The bible IS the word of God." Then the vicmeister gave the "testimony of the word itself" to support this. While I won't argue the validity or lack of validity of the "theory", the method to prove it is rather flawed. I always thought that his explanation sounded kinda funny.
This is not inductive reasoning.
Inductive reasoning shows that the theory holds true for an arbitrary case, then proceeds to show that it holds true for ALL cases.
"Some people prayed, and someone got healed, therefore those with that theology are correct".
What about the next case? The next circumstance, where the guy didn't get healed?
It's amazing how soon some of us dropped logic when superstition was invoked:
Also notice the "examples" used to "prove" that this fear-thing supposedly worked, and the believing-thing supposedly worked did NOT come from verifiable sources, but rather from ANONYMOUS ANECDOTES, nothing we can prove ACTUALLY HAPPENED, but we are meant to believe them ENTIRELY.
Examples:
A mother kills the child through her fears.
(Every day, LOTS of mothers fear for their children's safety,
and every day, LOTS of mothers see their children home safely.)
..... (other examples cited after this)
Whoa back up ... I was certain I was taught it is the devil (or the adversary) who is the author of death, not a child's mother. As I recall VPW said in PFAL it was the FEAR in the heart and the life of that mother (it was not the mother herself) that killed that child. I don't see how you can make the claim that PFAL taught the mother herself killed her child with her fear. I believe what was taught in PFAL (quite accurately) was it was the fear that the mother had which contributed to the death of her child.
VPW taught the same principle in the pamphlet: "Christians Should Be Prosperous". While VPW largely covers the subject of tithing in that pamphlet, he goes on to explain (on p12 of that study) "There is a close and definite relationship between the material and the spiritual realms. You just cannot separate the two for they are inextricably bound by all the chords of life. The spiritual and material go hand in hand. Medical science in the field called psychosomatic medicine indicates that at least seventy to eighty percent of all diseases are rooted in the spiritual realm. The bible clearly indicates that all [enlarged for emphasis] material manifestation is the result of our spiritual attitude."
Do mother's fear for their children's safety? Of course many do. Do they still see their children home safely? Many do. The question that needs to be asked I believe would be, is that fear the same thing or the same result of their spiritual attitude - as VPW explains in CSBP? Obviously it can't be the same fear, as many children do apparently make it home safely. A mother's fear for her child's safety may not have anything to do with her overall spiritual attitude, but rather fear out of concern. It is quite clear to me the example VPW cited in PFAL was not an example of a mother who was fearing out of concern for her child's safety, but rather a mother whose overall spiritual attitude was that of fear itself - and that is something entirely different. The reason this explanation is in CSBP is because the same principle (or spiritual law) also applies to tithing.
What I found remarkable was this explanation about fear was in the CSBP pamphlet. What that tells me is, there is much more to prosperity than just a Christian being healthy and having lots of money. It also tells me the reason why some Christians tithe - which is also out of fear. It is the fear of their not having enough (that is the only reason many tithe and why they are critical of those who don't) and the reason why their tithe often backfires on them and why they end up having less than they had before and less than enough. The bottom line is, if your spiritual attitude is only one out of and that of fear - and not out of trust or of faith in God, then you're someone who is going to be in for a whole heap of hurt.
Fear is also one of the reasons why many people in TWI tithed. Some even feared 10% was just not good enough for God, so they tithed even more and also compelled others to do the same. Now let's look at what that fear did for them, and also look at what it got us. (Something tells me this discussion should go into "Doctrinal" - or it will eventually end up there.)
Whoa back up ... I was certain I was taught it is the devil (or the adversary) who is the author of death, not a child's mother. As I recall VPW said in PFAL it was the FEAR in the heart and the life of that mother (it was not the mother herself) that killed that child. I don't see how you can make the claim that PFAL taught the mother herself killed her child with her fear. I believe what was taught in PFAL (quite accurately) was it was the fear that the mother had which contributed to the death of her child.
Check your own sentences- you went from
"It was the FEAR-in the HEART-of that mother- that killed her child"
to "the fear the mother had which CONTRIBUTED to the death of her child".
Perhaps you did that unconsciously, but don't try to shift the blame like that.
vpw said the sole cause of the child's death was the fear of his mother.
Therefore, he said the mother killed the child, and the murder weapon was her fear.
"It wasn't HER, it was her FEAR."
Yeah, and it wasn't the crazy man, but the bullets from his gun that killed those kids in Virginia Tech,
and bombs don't kill people- but the EXPLOSIONS do.
If you can't see how silly it is to try to say vpw didn't say she killed her child via her fear,
you're in the extreme minority. Lots of us got that the FIRST time thru pfal, and there's been posters who
posted about mothers who became fearful of damaging their own children via their thoughts as a direct
result of sitting thru Session 1.
And if you still believe the LAW of Believing kills people and deflects crashes like in Session 1,
that is NOT my fault.
"Medical science in the field called psychosomatic medicine indicates that at least seventy to eighty percent of all diseases are rooted in the spiritual realm. The bible clearly indicates that ]all material manifestation is the result of our spiritual attitude."
And he was wrong TWICE. Medicine shows that having a positive attitude contributes to good health,
in that being depressed can weaken the responses of the immune system.
No COMPETENT medical source has ever claimed that even 70% of health, let alone
diseases, are rooted in anything psychosomatic, let alone "SPIRITUAL."
(How many medical sources USE the word "spiritual", for that matter?)
And the Bible does NOT indicate that MOST material manifestation is the result of our spiritual attitude,
let alone ALL.
If that was really true, all the most ardent vpw worshippers would have hit the Powerball lottery or
cleaned up at Las Vegas at Slots by now. Your presumed spiritual attitude would have manifested bags
of material wealth for you.
What the Bible ACTUALLY says is that the rain falls on the just and the unjust.
What vpw did was blame anyone who suffered for being in the position of suffering, since they were
supposedly the ones who could determine their circumstances.
Do mother's fear for their children's safety? Of course many do. Do they still see their children home safely? Many do. The question that needs to be asked I believe would be, is that fear the same thing or the same result of their spiritual attitude - as VPW explains in CSBP? Obviously it can't be the same fear, as many children do apparently make it home safely. A mother's fear for her child's safety may not have anything to do with her overall spiritual attitude, but rather fear out of concern. It is quite clear to me the example VPW cited in PFAL was not an example of a mother who was fearing out of concern for her child's safety, but rather a mother whose overall spiritual attitude was that of fear itself - and that is something entirely different.
Didn't waste any time putting the blame BACK on the imaginary mother, did you?
vpw couldn't possibly have been blowing smoke up our keisters, so there must
be some way to completely reinterpret what he said, adding special conditionals
that completely redirect from his emphatic
"GOD WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE"
to keep you from suffering consequences you fear.
If your conscience is fine with that, that's your business.
[] Fear is also one of the reasons why many people in TWI tithed.
I would agree, but the yelling is tacky.
lcm in particular was famous for making claims to the effect that God wouldn't do anything for you
if you didn't tithe. (Specifically, he talked about God spitting.)
Whoa back up ... I was certain I was taught it is the devil (or the adversary) who is the author of death, not a child's mother. As I recall VPW said in PFAL it was the FEAR in the heart and the life of that mother (it was not the mother herself) that killed that child. I don't see how you can make the claim that PFAL taught the mother herself killed her child with her fear. I believe what was taught in PFAL (quite accurately) was it was the fear that the mother had which contributed to the death of her child.
HUh?? So the mother didn't kill her child with her fear it was the fear she had that killed her child???
Fear is an emotion it has no form or being it can't "DO" anything. the bottom line in this example is that the fear, which would not have existed without the mother having said emotion, was the underlying cause of the child's death. Hence , if you buy into this, it was the mother's fault her child died because she brought the emotion into being.
VPW taught the same principle in the pamphlet: "Christians Should Be Prosperous". While VPW largely covers the subject of tithing in that pamphlet, he goes on to explain (on p12 of that study) "There is a close and definite relationship between the material and the spiritual realms. You just cannot separate the two for they are inextricably bound by all the chords of life. The spiritual and material go hand in hand. Medical science in the field called psychosomatic medicine indicates that at least seventy to eighty percent of all diseases are rooted in the spiritual realm. The bible clearly indicates that all [enlarged for emphasis] material manifestation is the result of our spiritual attitude."
"medical science in the field called psychosomatic medicine" THere is no such field in medicine. Psychosomatic is more commonly referred to as hypochondria. Do 70-80% of hypochondriacs have spritual problems --could be but this one illness hardly speaks to the rest of the diseases that may occur in the human population. I also notice that no reference was made as to what medical article these figures and assertions were found in. Looks like more of VPW's made out of whole cloth examples.
Do mother's fear for their children's safety? Of course many do. Do they still see their children home safely? Many do. The question that needs to be asked I believe would be, is that fear the same thing or the same result of their spiritual attitude - as VPW explains in CSBP? Obviously it can't be the same fear, as many children do apparently make it home safely. A mother's fear for her child's safety may not have anything to do with her overall spiritual attitude, but rather fear out of concern. It is quite clear to me the example VPW cited in PFAL was not an example of a mother who was fearing out of concern for her child's safety, but rather a mother whose overall spiritual attitude was that of fear itself - and that is something entirely different. The reason this explanation is in CSBP is because the same principle (or spiritual law) also applies to tithing.
Again, this is an attempt on your part to make sense out of what VPW taught. Don't you see that the fact you have to go to this length to make sense out of what VPW taught means that his teaching on this subject makes no sense??? There is nowhere that VPW says what you say above. Don't you think that if that is what he meant he would have just come out and said it??? Don't you think that the reason he didn't might just have to do with the fact that he was spouting "doctrine" which sounded good on superficial levels but could not stand under close inspection??
What I found remarkable was this explanation about fear was in the CSBP pamphlet. What that tells me is, there is much more to prosperity than just a Christian being healthy and having lots of money. It also tells me the reason why some Christians tithe - which is also out of fear. It is the fear of their not having enough (that is the only reason many tithe and why they are critical of those who don't) and the reason why their tithe often backfires on them and why they end up having less than they had before and less than enough. The bottom line is, if your spiritual attitude is only one out of and that of fear - and not out of trust or of faith in God, then you're someone who is going to be in for a whole heap of hurt.
Or not, there are many people who are fearful and have no belief in God that lead perfectly fine lives. So do they lead lives that are all they could be??--I don't know. As for me I will follow the Lord, but I eschew making blanket statements regarding the spritual state of my fellow man since that isn't my job but God's
Fear is also one of the reasons why many people in TWI tithed.Some even feared 10% was just not good enough for God, so they tithed even more and also compelled others to do the same. Now let's look at what that fear did for them, and also look at what it got us. (Something tells me this discussion should go into "Doctrinal" - or it will eventually end up there.)
Could very well be, in fact in the case of TWI probably was true in more cases than not. But to try and make a correlation between, a dead child, a mother's fear, a mother's spritual state, hypochondria and tithing so far stretchs the envelope as to be --well, unbelievable.
vpw said the sole cause of the child's death was the fear of his mother. Therefore, he said the mother killed the child, and the murder weapon was her fear.
"It wasn't HER, it was her FEAR." ...
If you can't see how silly it is to try to say vpw didn't say she killed her child via her fear,
you're in the extreme minority. ...
Boy, a lot of people are real quick to shoot from the hip without checking things out from the Word of God first. I was making the distinction here between the word for fear (the fear that is translated from the Greek word phobeos) and the other word for fear (the fear which is also translated from the Greek word - apisita, or fear resulting in unbelief). But the fear you were talking about, the one you gave in your example, as in the mother fearing for her child's safety and her child still returning home safe wouldn't be the Greek word phobeos or apistia, (fear) as the Greek word would be eulabeo - (also translated as fear) which means to be circumspect or to be cautious.
And that "fear" (being circumspect or cautious) is certainly not the same kind of fear the Word of God uses for "fear" resulting in phobeos = total fright, or apistia = unbelief. VPW wasn't giving us an example in PFAL about a mother who was being circumspect or being cautious (fearful) with her child - or eulabeo, but one who had a totally different type of fear altogether. Kapeesh?
When I think about black and white thinking, my mind goes to the record of the woman found in adultery. Jesus knew the law. The pharisees were throwing the law in his face: The law says she should be stoned to death; what do you say??? He said he who is without sin cast the first stone. That right there tells me life isn't so black and white. The Bible isn't so black and white.
I like being a little more gray these days. :) I'm not talking about my hair either. Maybe there's a reason our brain is called gray matter.
Why does this thread matter? Well because for some reason I took this class and quit thinking for a long time. There is a certain stubbornness within me to know in detail why and how something this major affected me to such a degree. I am tempted to believe it’s my fault and I am just not that smart to begin with, but deep down inside I really don’t believe that.
I think that perhaps the answer to that question lies in the fact that they exploited our hunger to know God...They lied in God's name...I believe that deep within each of us is a very personal hunger to seek out and know God. Twi wasn't like a real estate scam that bilked us out of money...this was a very personal intrusion that has very personal consequences in a person's life.
Turning off our brain with twi was similar to a junkie who always had his fix...it was easy to succumb to this spiritual dream-come-true and to become intoxicated by it because of our very nature and desire to know spiritual truth...
Excellent analogy comparing the TWI spiritual scam to a real estate scam to contrast the scope of damage done.
Although I don't get too wrapped up in discussing the sex scandals, I think there is a similarity there as well.
It's not just about Joe believer and Betty Lou believer having an affair. That stuff happens everywhere, not just TWI.
It's about someone abusing a position of trust and respect to satisfy their own personal agenda and doing it in God's name.
The damage done goes far beyond the scope of what is immediately recognizable.
I'm not sure what that has to do with"black and white" thinking other than to illustrate that rationalization played a big part in some of the justifications that were used to explain actions in TWI.
The probem isn't that there are things in life that could be said to be black and white. It is when black and white is the only way we can view the world. Take our little discuission above about the word "fear".
THe black and white thinking here is extremely apparent when greek words must be found , extrapolations made and explanations made that loop backwards onto themselves all in an attempt to make the original example be true, Since for it to be be false would mean that VPW was wrong. And VPW being wrong would not fit into the black and white thinking of VPW and PFAL are right.
Just FYI...Inductive Reasoning is an offshoot of Systematic Theology, and the Inductive Method of Bible Study is a whole topic in and of itself. It is just one of many hermaneutical approaches. It happens to be the approach that VP and company employed, and heartily endorsed as the only RIGHT WAY to approach the scriptures.
If anybody wants to broaden their horizons, there are other ways to study, and approach the scriptures. I think that might be the point of this thread. Forgive me if I'm being presumptous.
Groucho: beautifully said!!! I think also we were young and we trusted. When you trust someone, you tend to put your guard down. Also, you don’t tend to expect someone in a religious organization to lie to you. Then also, the manifestations were a really exciting thing and I hadn’t heard of it before. That by itself was darn convincing!
Ex10: Interesting! What started me down this particular foxhole is for some weird reason I recalled the other day a sns with lcm spending most of it bragging about how good he was at inductive reasoning. It stuck in my mind and I looked up what it was. A few days later it began to dawn on me different things that were inductive reasoning and false conclusions. The more I looked, the more I found….then things began to fall into place. I began to see how twi takes a sharp left turn off the path, in the sense of the mechanics of their thought processes. Combine that with a massive ego and someone who is willing to take a lot of license with the Bible, no wonder…!!!
You know what? They could have gotten away with all the error and had a successful ministry if it weren’t for the fact that the heart of it was so rotten….but you combine rotten heart plus doctrinal/practical error and what a mess!
The problem isn't that there are things in life that could be said to be black and white. It is when black and white is the only way we can view the world. Take our little discussion above about the word "fear".
The black and white thinking here is extremely apparent when Greek words must be found , extrapolations made and explanations made that loop backwards onto themselves all in an attempt to make the original example be true, Since for it to be be false would mean that VPW was wrong. And VPW being wrong would not fit into the black and white thinking of VPW and PFAL are right.
What started me down this particular foxhole is for some weird reason I recalled the other day a sns with lcm spending most of it bragging about how good he was at inductive reasoning. It stuck in my mind and I looked up what it was. A few days later it began to dawn on me different things that were inductive reasoning and false conclusions. The more I looked, the more I found….then things began to fall into place. I began to see how twi takes a sharp left turn off the path, in the sense of the mechanics of their thought processes. Combine that with a massive ego and someone who is willing to take a lot of license with the Bible, no wonder…!!!
You know what? They could have gotten away with all the error and had a successful ministry if it weren’t for the fact that the heart of it was so rotten….but you combine rotten heart plus doctrinal/practical error and what a mess!
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waysider
And don't forget:
One must never consider.(ie:employ deductive reasoning)
Eve did that, and look what happened to her.
TWI doctrine got a whole lot easier to accept after session #7.
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Ham
Inductive reasoning can be used for a valid proof, but cannot be used for everything.
Usually it is a lot easier to disprove than to prove. "believing always works.."
all you have to show is only ONE counter example.
"the bible fits like a hand in a glove, not a single contradiction"
even the old vicmeister acknowledged that it you found even ONE discrepency, then his theory was flawed. But instead of accepting apparent "defeat" he forced a lot of contradicting scriptures to conform.
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WordWolf
Also notice the "examples" used to "prove" that this fear-thing supposedly worked,
and the believing-thing supposedly worked did NOT come from verifiable sources,
but rather from ANONYMOUS ANECDOTES,
nothing we can prove ACTUALLY HAPPENED,
but we are meant to believe them ENTIRELY.
Examples:
A mother kills the child through her fears.
(Every day, LOTS of mothers fear for their children's safety,
and every day, LOTS of mothers see their children home safely.)
A man begins to get a crippling paranoia he will become a car-crash
statistic as he drives, but after a pep-talk, he returns to being a safe driver.
(Ok, this one is possible, but hardly a "law"- it's more how someone
can cause a self-fulfilling prophecy, or follow a pep-talk.)
A pair of men sit in a room and focus their minds on their goal- which then
shows up and makes itself known to them, all as the result of their
sitting in the room and focusing. They become rich philanthropists,
but nobody likes them despite their charitable contributions.
(And yet we can't FIND a record of them- is it possible they
never existed?)
BTW, this story is in TW:LiL and made a big impact on lcm,
as he himself recorded in his own book, "vp and me".
Funny how he took all sorts of photos of all sorts of things,
but we he never went back to that woman and said
"Can I get a photo of those drapes for my scrapbook?"
despite using it as an illustration for years, and supposedly
he was one of the main participants in that story.
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markomalley
TWI is hardly the only group that employs this simplistic view on life.
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Oakspear
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another spot
Why does this thread matter? Well because for some reason I took this class and quit thinking for a long time. There is a certain stubbornness within me to know in detail why and how something this major affected me to such a degree. I am tempted to believe it’s my fault and I am just not that smart to begin with, but deep down inside I really don’t believe that.
It didn’t happen by magic. I used to read on Waydale concerns about brainwashing. I don’t think that’s it either. To a degree it was mishandling the Bible, but that was just the subject. It was HOW it was presented (the overall framework) that is the real problem.
Btw, this class was presented as a class on keys. I think locks is more appropriate. And, for something that was supposed to be so perfect and flawless, well it was certainly lacking in even basic logic.
Wordwolf. You really hit on something (see below). I would just throw in that example of the man with the withered arm who was healed by Jesus. This was supposed to support need and want parallel (no way did it do that). However, later on, vp tells us how he heals someone with a withered arm in a train station….
This is a quote from Wikipedia (emphasis mine).
“Anecdotal evidence is an informal account of evidence in the form of an anecdote or hearsay. The term is often used in contrast to scientific evidence, such as evidence-based medicine, which are types of formal accounts. Anecdotal evidence is often unscientific because it cannot be investigated using the scientific method. Misuse of anecdotal evidence is a logical fallacy and is sometimes informally referred to as the "person who" fallacy ("I know a person who..."; "I know of a case where..." etc. Compare with hasty generalization). Anecdotal evidence is not necessarily typical; statistical evidence can more accurately determine how typical something is.
When used in advertising or promotion of a product, service, or idea, anecdotal evidence is often called a testimonial and is banned in some jurisdictions. The term is also sometimes used in a legal context to describe certain kinds of testimony. Psychologists have found that people are more likely to remember notable examples than typical examples.
A common way anecdotal evidence becomes unscientific is through fallacious reasoning such as the post hoc fallacy, the human tendency to assume that if one event happens after another, then the first must be the cause of the second. Another fallacy involves inductive reasoning. For instance, if an anecdote illustrates a desired conclusion rather than a logical conclusion, it is considered a faulty or hasty generalization. [8] For example, here is anecdotal evidence presented as proof of a desired conclusion:
"There's abundant proof that God exists and is still performing miracles today. Just last week I read about a girl who was dying of cancer. Her whole family went to church and prayed for her, and she was cured."
Anecdotes like this are very powerful persuaders, but they don't prove anything in a scientific or logical sense. [9] The child may have become better anyway and this could be an example also of the regressive fallacy. Anecdotal evidence cannot be distinguished from placebo effects.”
I would like to say that science and religion don’t necessarily mix and my point is not that everything needs to be proven scientifically. My point is to identify faulty reason within a class and ministry that supposedly specialized in the truth. It is not possible to arrive at truth using sloppy reasoning skills except by accident.
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Ham
I think there was at least a little logic in twi.. there had to be to attract the more intellectual crowd. But so much of the argument was circular in nature.
Circular reasoning uses elements of the theory itself to reach the conclusion. "The bible IS the word of God." Then the vicmeister gave the "testimony of the word itself" to support this. While I won't argue the validity or lack of validity of the "theory", the method to prove it is rather flawed. I always thought that his explanation sounded kinda funny.
This is not inductive reasoning.
Inductive reasoning shows that the theory holds true for an arbitrary case, then proceeds to show that it holds true for ALL cases.
"Some people prayed, and someone got healed, therefore those with that theology are correct".
What about the next case? The next circumstance, where the guy didn't get healed?
It's amazing how soon some of us dropped logic when superstition was invoked:
"Oh. The debil wants to make us look bad.."
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What The Hey
Whoa back up ... I was certain I was taught it is the devil (or the adversary) who is the author of death, not a child's mother. As I recall VPW said in PFAL it was the FEAR in the heart and the life of that mother (it was not the mother herself) that killed that child. I don't see how you can make the claim that PFAL taught the mother herself killed her child with her fear. I believe what was taught in PFAL (quite accurately) was it was the fear that the mother had which contributed to the death of her child.
VPW taught the same principle in the pamphlet: "Christians Should Be Prosperous". While VPW largely covers the subject of tithing in that pamphlet, he goes on to explain (on p12 of that study) "There is a close and definite relationship between the material and the spiritual realms. You just cannot separate the two for they are inextricably bound by all the chords of life. The spiritual and material go hand in hand. Medical science in the field called psychosomatic medicine indicates that at least seventy to eighty percent of all diseases are rooted in the spiritual realm. The bible clearly indicates that all [enlarged for emphasis] material manifestation is the result of our spiritual attitude."
Do mother's fear for their children's safety? Of course many do. Do they still see their children home safely? Many do. The question that needs to be asked I believe would be, is that fear the same thing or the same result of their spiritual attitude - as VPW explains in CSBP? Obviously it can't be the same fear, as many children do apparently make it home safely. A mother's fear for her child's safety may not have anything to do with her overall spiritual attitude, but rather fear out of concern. It is quite clear to me the example VPW cited in PFAL was not an example of a mother who was fearing out of concern for her child's safety, but rather a mother whose overall spiritual attitude was that of fear itself - and that is something entirely different. The reason this explanation is in CSBP is because the same principle (or spiritual law) also applies to tithing.
What I found remarkable was this explanation about fear was in the CSBP pamphlet. What that tells me is, there is much more to prosperity than just a Christian being healthy and having lots of money. It also tells me the reason why some Christians tithe - which is also out of fear. It is the fear of their not having enough (that is the only reason many tithe and why they are critical of those who don't) and the reason why their tithe often backfires on them and why they end up having less than they had before and less than enough. The bottom line is, if your spiritual attitude is only one out of and that of fear - and not out of trust or of faith in God, then you're someone who is going to be in for a whole heap of hurt.
Fear is also one of the reasons why many people in TWI tithed. Some even feared 10% was just not good enough for God, so they tithed even more and also compelled others to do the same. Now let's look at what that fear did for them, and also look at what it got us. (Something tells me this discussion should go into "Doctrinal" - or it will eventually end up there.)
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Bolshevik
Now begins the unending question of what a proper spiritual attitude is.
(Not to forget sidestepping the question of tithing)
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WordWolf
There's a saying, popular on the Snopes boards (no, I don't post there), that
"The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'."
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What The Hey
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WordWolf
Check your own sentences- you went from
"It was the FEAR-in the HEART-of that mother- that killed her child"
to "the fear the mother had which CONTRIBUTED to the death of her child".
Perhaps you did that unconsciously, but don't try to shift the blame like that.
vpw said the sole cause of the child's death was the fear of his mother.
Therefore, he said the mother killed the child, and the murder weapon was her fear.
"It wasn't HER, it was her FEAR."
Yeah, and it wasn't the crazy man, but the bullets from his gun that killed those kids in Virginia Tech,
and bombs don't kill people- but the EXPLOSIONS do.
If you can't see how silly it is to try to say vpw didn't say she killed her child via her fear,
you're in the extreme minority. Lots of us got that the FIRST time thru pfal, and there's been posters who
posted about mothers who became fearful of damaging their own children via their thoughts as a direct
result of sitting thru Session 1.
And if you still believe the LAW of Believing kills people and deflects crashes like in Session 1,
that is NOT my fault.
And he was wrong TWICE. Medicine shows that having a positive attitude contributes to good health,
in that being depressed can weaken the responses of the immune system.
No COMPETENT medical source has ever claimed that even 70% of health, let alone
diseases, are rooted in anything psychosomatic, let alone "SPIRITUAL."
(How many medical sources USE the word "spiritual", for that matter?)
And the Bible does NOT indicate that MOST material manifestation is the result of our spiritual attitude,
let alone ALL.
If that was really true, all the most ardent vpw worshippers would have hit the Powerball lottery or
cleaned up at Las Vegas at Slots by now. Your presumed spiritual attitude would have manifested bags
of material wealth for you.
What the Bible ACTUALLY says is that the rain falls on the just and the unjust.
What vpw did was blame anyone who suffered for being in the position of suffering, since they were
supposedly the ones who could determine their circumstances.
Didn't waste any time putting the blame BACK on the imaginary mother, did you?vpw couldn't possibly have been blowing smoke up our keisters, so there must
be some way to completely reinterpret what he said, adding special conditionals
that completely redirect from his emphatic
"GOD WOULD HAVE TO CHANGE THE LAWS OF THE UNIVERSE"
to keep you from suffering consequences you fear.
If your conscience is fine with that, that's your business.
I would agree, but the yelling is tacky.
lcm in particular was famous for making claims to the effect that God wouldn't do anything for you
if you didn't tithe. (Specifically, he talked about God spitting.)
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templelady
HUh?? So the mother didn't kill her child with her fear it was the fear she had that killed her child???
Fear is an emotion it has no form or being it can't "DO" anything. the bottom line in this example is that the fear, which would not have existed without the mother having said emotion, was the underlying cause of the child's death. Hence , if you buy into this, it was the mother's fault her child died because she brought the emotion into being.
"medical science in the field called psychosomatic medicine" THere is no such field in medicine. Psychosomatic is more commonly referred to as hypochondria. Do 70-80% of hypochondriacs have spritual problems --could be but this one illness hardly speaks to the rest of the diseases that may occur in the human population. I also notice that no reference was made as to what medical article these figures and assertions were found in. Looks like more of VPW's made out of whole cloth examples.
Again, this is an attempt on your part to make sense out of what VPW taught. Don't you see that the fact you have to go to this length to make sense out of what VPW taught means that his teaching on this subject makes no sense??? There is nowhere that VPW says what you say above. Don't you think that if that is what he meant he would have just come out and said it??? Don't you think that the reason he didn't might just have to do with the fact that he was spouting "doctrine" which sounded good on superficial levels but could not stand under close inspection??
Or not, there are many people who are fearful and have no belief in God that lead perfectly fine lives. So do they lead lives that are all they could be??--I don't know. As for me I will follow the Lord, but I eschew making blanket statements regarding the spritual state of my fellow man since that isn't my job but God's
Could very well be, in fact in the case of TWI probably was true in more cases than not. But to try and make a correlation between, a dead child, a mother's fear, a mother's spritual state, hypochondria and tithing so far stretchs the envelope as to be --well, unbelievable.
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Ham
Another little tidbit..
even if there is correlation, that in itself does not conclusively prove causation.
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What The Hey
Boy, a lot of people are real quick to shoot from the hip without checking things out from the Word of God first. I was making the distinction here between the word for fear (the fear that is translated from the Greek word phobeos) and the other word for fear (the fear which is also translated from the Greek word - apisita, or fear resulting in unbelief). But the fear you were talking about, the one you gave in your example, as in the mother fearing for her child's safety and her child still returning home safe wouldn't be the Greek word phobeos or apistia, (fear) as the Greek word would be eulabeo - (also translated as fear) which means to be circumspect or to be cautious.
And that "fear" (being circumspect or cautious) is certainly not the same kind of fear the Word of God uses for "fear" resulting in phobeos = total fright, or apistia = unbelief. VPW wasn't giving us an example in PFAL about a mother who was being circumspect or being cautious (fearful) with her child - or eulabeo, but one who had a totally different type of fear altogether. Kapeesh?
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Nottawayfer
When I think about black and white thinking, my mind goes to the record of the woman found in adultery. Jesus knew the law. The pharisees were throwing the law in his face: The law says she should be stoned to death; what do you say??? He said he who is without sin cast the first stone. That right there tells me life isn't so black and white. The Bible isn't so black and white.
I like being a little more gray these days. :) I'm not talking about my hair either.
Maybe there's a reason our brain is called gray matter.
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waysider
WTH
I'm pickin'up what your puttin' down, but let's be honest here-----The PFAL class was not written in Greek!
Kapeesh?
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GrouchoMarxJr
I think that perhaps the answer to that question lies in the fact that they exploited our hunger to know God...They lied in God's name...I believe that deep within each of us is a very personal hunger to seek out and know God. Twi wasn't like a real estate scam that bilked us out of money...this was a very personal intrusion that has very personal consequences in a person's life.
Turning off our brain with twi was similar to a junkie who always had his fix...it was easy to succumb to this spiritual dream-come-true and to become intoxicated by it because of our very nature and desire to know spiritual truth...
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waysider
Groucho
Excellent analogy comparing the TWI spiritual scam to a real estate scam to contrast the scope of damage done.
Although I don't get too wrapped up in discussing the sex scandals, I think there is a similarity there as well.
It's not just about Joe believer and Betty Lou believer having an affair. That stuff happens everywhere, not just TWI.
It's about someone abusing a position of trust and respect to satisfy their own personal agenda and doing it in God's name.
The damage done goes far beyond the scope of what is immediately recognizable.
I'm not sure what that has to do with"black and white" thinking other than to illustrate that rationalization played a big part in some of the justifications that were used to explain actions in TWI.
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templelady
The probem isn't that there are things in life that could be said to be black and white. It is when black and white is the only way we can view the world. Take our little discuission above about the word "fear".
THe black and white thinking here is extremely apparent when greek words must be found , extrapolations made and explanations made that loop backwards onto themselves all in an attempt to make the original example be true, Since for it to be be false would mean that VPW was wrong. And VPW being wrong would not fit into the black and white thinking of VPW and PFAL are right.
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ex10
Just FYI...Inductive Reasoning is an offshoot of Systematic Theology, and the Inductive Method of Bible Study is a whole topic in and of itself. It is just one of many hermaneutical approaches. It happens to be the approach that VP and company employed, and heartily endorsed as the only RIGHT WAY to approach the scriptures.
If anybody wants to broaden their horizons, there are other ways to study, and approach the scriptures. I think that might be the point of this thread. Forgive me if I'm being presumptous.
Another Spot, right on!
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another spot
Groucho: beautifully said!!! I think also we were young and we trusted. When you trust someone, you tend to put your guard down. Also, you don’t tend to expect someone in a religious organization to lie to you. Then also, the manifestations were a really exciting thing and I hadn’t heard of it before. That by itself was darn convincing!
Ex10: Interesting! What started me down this particular foxhole is for some weird reason I recalled the other day a sns with lcm spending most of it bragging about how good he was at inductive reasoning. It stuck in my mind and I looked up what it was. A few days later it began to dawn on me different things that were inductive reasoning and false conclusions. The more I looked, the more I found….then things began to fall into place. I began to see how twi takes a sharp left turn off the path, in the sense of the mechanics of their thought processes. Combine that with a massive ego and someone who is willing to take a lot of license with the Bible, no wonder…!!!
You know what? They could have gotten away with all the error and had a successful ministry if it weren’t for the fact that the heart of it was so rotten….but you combine rotten heart plus doctrinal/practical error and what a mess!
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WordWolf
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Ham
Yep.. from a jock psychology major turned madman.. sheesh.
There really is a difference between inductive reasoning and jumping to an unfounded conclusion..
I wish these guys would just leave math alone. What did it do to them, anyway..
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