Even your DNA could conceivably click on and off relative to the believing patterns in the mind.
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Forgiving is always appropriate, it's unappropriate when pressured to forgive..
I have been in situations where I was wronged and confronted the person who wronged me and the person responded with: 'I didn't say it (it was an instance of gossiping), and if I did say it, my heart was in the right place, so I'm not sorry for what I said; but you're really screwed up for not forgiving me for what I didn't really do in the first place.' I found that to be a really interesting response.
Jeaniam: I couldn't imagine saying that to you. I would want to pop them in the kisser and say, "forgive that." I was thinking the other day that "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me" is not true. Words can and do inflict serious pain.
-------------------------
"Shaking the dust [of that place] off your feet," is a concept that sits in contrast to the "forgive everyone everything" I was previously expousing.
Now the way I see it, there are times that you just let the person(s)' sin stay on them.
Most of the time we do all we can to help each other out, we endeavor to make sure we take the beam out of our own eye before trying to take the mote out of our neighbor's eye, we forgive 70 times 7, etc. etc. etc.
But, there comes a time that you have no word from the Lord, no help to give from the Holy Spirit, it comes a time when people reject who/what you are, mistreat you consciously, and Holy Spirit gives the command to "Shake the dust of that "place" off your feet, and it's a testimony against them of that place.
(One place I worked I was analyzing how I "blew it" to not be able to keep the job, and my dear husband reminded me that when a close fellow-worker stole my purse and management discovered it, they did not return the purse to me. Unthinkable, really, but it happened. Fred was showing me that the Holy Spirit wanted me out of there.)
This "shake the dust" understanding has happened to me at two places where I have worked, both of which have been after leaving twi. It's never happened to me at church.
Shaking the dust off from your feet -- and leaving that "place", the presence of that/those person(s) -- keeps the "dirt" of their sin from getting you "dirty."
I would say this situation is not one that needs our forgiveness, but the people we leave have made their decision in the eyes of the Lord.
When I was in this situation, I had no more help, I was no more of benefit to help the situation.
Maybe someone else could get God's help to them, but not me, not at that time.
And in both situations I experienced unjust treatment.
(I didn't get a "Shake the dust off your feet" thought when I left twi -- I was kicked out and just felt horribly betrayed and abandoned. Greasespot Cafe is still helping me come to grips with that trauma. Thank goodness :) )
I'm thinking that forgiveness is a gift that the forgiver gives to the forgiven. I see forgiveness on two planes, the spiritual where only God can forgive sin against Him, and human where we can act like God and give forgiveness to anyone we choose whenever we choose for whatever we choose.
True forgiveness has nothing to do with what the forgiven is currently doing. If the forgiven repeats the incident forgiven, the forgiver can give forgiveness anew as he sees fit.
Forgiving and forgetting are mutually exclusive.
One is not required by God to forget once he has forgiven. As high as heaven is above the Earth, so high are God's ways above our ways and His thought processes above ours.
If one forgets that their ex spouse, for example, is a filandering adulterer and does not act (as in divorce) on the knowledge and remarries the spouse (because they have actually forgotten what they forgave the jerk for.... they are in fact GIVING the jerk a golden opportunity to jerk them around AGAIN.
It is possible for one to exact consequences on the forgiven without rescinding his forgiveness.
I wouldn't go to Pastor Dave's new church either. Not because I haven't forgiven him for cheating on his first wife, but because my knowledge of his actions tells me that his actions disqualify him from the Biblical definition of an overseer. If you know something bad about someone, not being taken in by the bad is an act of wisdom - not forgiveness.
My experience, as a human, is that my forgiving others frees me from residual ill will that is natural to feel when I've been wronged. That feels good. It feels good for me, as a forgiver to leave the ill will on the one who done me wrong. It allows me to take what they meant for evil and turn it into good.
My regrets that I didn't read this thread until now. Excellent questions, answers and viewpoints spoken here.
As for me I feel to harbor sin against someone harms me and in so doing puts some of the responsibility for my compromised health mentally, physically and spiritually on me. It doesn't mean I invited the sin against myself or that I think the sinner deserves anything. He/she are no longer the issue. I the receiver am. And what I do with their sin against me is mine to sort through at that point. When I see my maker someday that person(s) will not be standing next to me as part of my wholeness or lack thereof. It will be simply me and what I have or have not done for my own self.
If Bob sins against Nancy and I being Nancy's best friend were to become responsible for their hearts intent it would make it rather impossible for me to live any type of peaceable life. All I can do in that case is comfort and suggest (if I feel I have something worth offering) so that I might be a part of the support group while Nancy and Bob work through what is theirs solely to do and either come to or don't come to a resolution. I hold no power for either of them.
I have experience in forgiving my trespassers and know the inward benefit of doing so. I've been on the 'before I forgave him' and 'after I forgave him' side and there is no question as to which side I began to find my healing on. No question!
But since I can't forgive another's sin against another it doesn't mean I have to hate as the abused hates their abuser either. And I believe there are generations of people who continue to hate others who never experientially did a thing to them and the results of that deep seeded hate harms the innocent the moment they take on inherited baggage. And wars and killing and prejudice survive.
Author Phillip Yancy tells a story about South Africa in his book “Rumors Of Another World.” His story in based on today’s scripture which clearly tells us how to treat our enemies.
In 1994 Nelson Mandela became the President of South Africa when the previous apartheid government was voted out of office. Mandela immediately appointed a commission to seek out and bring to justice those who had been guilty of atrocities during the time of apartheid. The commission was empowered with the responsibility to send to trial and punish anyone found guilty.
But the commission was encouraged to provide amnesty to anyone who voluntarily faced his accusers and confessed his guilt.
An officer came forward and asked for amnesty. He was brought before the commission. An aged woman was brought face-to-face with the officer who had brutally murdered her only son and her beloved husband.
Asked what she wanted from him, she said, "Although I have no family, I still have a lot of love to give." She requested that the officer visit her regularly so she could mother him. Then she said, "I would like to embrace him so he can know that my forgiveness is real."
In Yancey’s story the elderly woman made her way to the witness stand --- the officer became so overwhelmed with shame and remorse that he fainted. The pain that woman inflicted was not worldly revenge with the sword but the purifying fire of a God given love that can lead to repentance and reconciliation.
I believe that is a good example of how to apply this Bible verse.
Scripture: Romans 12:20
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
Ok, so I forgive him for what he did to the church. But I'm not going to his new church. And if I talk to anyone from his new church or his old church and that subject comes up, I think it's fair to say I don't like what he did and I'm not going to support him in it. So have I truly forgiven if I haven't forgotten?
I think the answer lies in the question, has God forgiven Satan?
Forgive me ( ) if I don't come at this from a biblical perspective, but I think that forgiveness is at once situational and shades of grey, a continuum. There is also the aspect of forgiveness where you put the anger at the transgression out of your heart and the aspect where you absolve the one being forgiven of consequenses. Definitely not black and white in my view.
Forgive me ( ) if I don't come at this from a biblical perspective, but I think that forgiveness is at once situational and shades of grey, a continuum. There is also the aspect of forgiveness where you put the anger at the transgression out of your heart and the aspect where you absolve the one being forgiven of consequenses. Definitely not black and white in my view.
I agree with you Oakspear.
Also, the whole nature of "forigiveness = forgetting and never mentioning again" is wrong, IMNSHO.
Forgiveness, "forgiveness", may represent the only practical way to bring to people back together into a desired relationship when the relationships taken a hit, been damaged or broken.
Restitution is often considered a requirement for forgiveness but again - practically speaking - it might not accomplish anything other than replace what was taken or damaged. Someone doing something to another, a wrong, and then saying they're sorry and wanting to make it right is certainly desirable, but the other side of the coin may never get flipped.
Forgiveness may or may not be extended. Restitution and recognition isn't forgiveness. I might think of restituton as "justice".
So if restitution is made, is forgiveness the just response? Is it part of justice?
I guess what I'm thinking is - if I take forgiveness out of a dynamic process between two people's interactions and just treat it as a standalone concept, I think it ends up differently than if I apply it to a circumstance like we seem to be discussing, where there's wrong done, etc. and forgiveness is defined in light of that.
If restitution is required and it's accomplished, then is forgiveness the required response?
If restitution isn't accomplished, is forgiveness a just response?
God hasn't forgiven without restitution- "redemption" was accomplished through Christ. As a recipient I benefit by "grace". But in God's system it seems that things had to be made right. Once that's done it's God's responsibility to extend forgiveness through grace, or so a lot of us believe.
What if God held grudges?
I'm pondering that because I think as humans we may mean well, but true "forgiveness", even in the best of all worlds and where justice has been served may not be forthcoming regardless of what's done. Choice and action has to be taken by someone who can do it. If they can't or don't want to, it's not going to happen no matter what.
That being the case whatever is expected from forgiveness won't happen unless a person wants to extend it and can, in a real way. Where a breach has been realized both sides have thiings to do to "forgive".
Forgiving I did to further my healing. Without it I'd never have been able to step forward. But once I did that the forgetting wasn't as critical because I'd chosen the forgiveness and there was power in that for me.
I think when dealing with relationships that have a capacity for restitution it
is relatively straightforward and "easier" to apply forgiveness.
What is harder to define is forgiveness when the effect of what the other person or entity has done to you has changed your life in a way that was unwanted where you’ll never be the same again, and when the offender is unrepentant, reprobate, still wants to harm you-and in a worse way, and is therefore dangerous for you and others.
What arethe biblical answers to forgiveness in these extreem situations? Can others define when and how someone else is to forgive? How did Christ act toward the Pharisees, how was forgiveness a part of that? How has God dealt with the Lucifer and his fallen angels? What part of forgiveness did He apply?
What is harder to define is forgiveness when the effect of what the other person or entity has done to you has changed your life in a way that was unwanted where you’ll never be the same again, and when the offender is unrepentant, reprobate, still wants to harm you-and in a worse way, and is therefore dangerous for you and others.
This is my situation and I chose to forgive for my healing not for theirs. But I can't look at myself as never being the same again or I'd not even try to become healed.
That's where forgiveness could be looked at, outside of a system of justice where there's wrong done, wrong determined and judged, wrong righted and a final declaration of a satisfactory outcome. (That still doesn't completely guarantee "forgiveness" in the "heart" of the offended or that it's everl received in kind.)
From God's standpoint, restitution was required, and Christ was that. It could be described as an offense that's "unforgivable" in that there was no way for the offender to make it completely right per the requirements without Christ.
Christ forgave as God forgave, while on earth it's where we see Christ literally forgiving as God forgives. So we have an example there.
Basically God provided the means for forgiveness to occur, and has offered it. We are "forgiven" in Christ, even if we don't accept it, it's extended in that the restitution was made.
We're also surrounded all the time with situations where restitution isn't possible in full for any number of reasons.
This has prompted me to think about something I'd not ever done. That being did God in fact forgive Satan.
I've always held onto this verse and it has aided in never placing blame on God:
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
What it tells me is that God would have to do what his son said was not possible for him to do. To withhold forgiveness from Satan would be contrary to his stand.
Or so this fits for my head based on what I know and where I'm at.
I also don't believe that restitution is always available and if we realize that going into the forgiveness process and still choose to forgive it has to be better for the soul than to harbor. Where in some instances wrecks havoc to the injury.
I can trust that God will and has forgiven me. And it would be wonderful if the sinner (et all) desired that same forgiveness but as stated in this thread they have to want it and what they do or don't hold inside them will be theirs alone to face their maker with. What I do with what I have left of me will be what I face my maker with. I can't afford not to forgive.
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DrWearWord
Even your DNA could conceivably click on and off relative to the believing patterns in the mind.
Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
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likeaneagle
Forgiving is always appropriate, it's unappropriate when pressured to forgive..
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Jeaniam
I have been in situations where I was wronged and confronted the person who wronged me and the person responded with: 'I didn't say it (it was an instance of gossiping), and if I did say it, my heart was in the right place, so I'm not sorry for what I said; but you're really screwed up for not forgiving me for what I didn't really do in the first place.' I found that to be a really interesting response.
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Kit Sober
Jeaniam: I couldn't imagine saying that to you. I would want to pop them in the kisser and say, "forgive that." I was thinking the other day that "sticks and stones may break my bones but words can never hurt me" is not true. Words can and do inflict serious pain.
-------------------------
"Shaking the dust [of that place] off your feet," is a concept that sits in contrast to the "forgive everyone everything" I was previously expousing.
Now the way I see it, there are times that you just let the person(s)' sin stay on them.
Most of the time we do all we can to help each other out, we endeavor to make sure we take the beam out of our own eye before trying to take the mote out of our neighbor's eye, we forgive 70 times 7, etc. etc. etc.
But, there comes a time that you have no word from the Lord, no help to give from the Holy Spirit, it comes a time when people reject who/what you are, mistreat you consciously, and Holy Spirit gives the command to "Shake the dust of that "place" off your feet, and it's a testimony against them of that place.
(One place I worked I was analyzing how I "blew it" to not be able to keep the job, and my dear husband reminded me that when a close fellow-worker stole my purse and management discovered it, they did not return the purse to me. Unthinkable, really, but it happened. Fred was showing me that the Holy Spirit wanted me out of there.)
This "shake the dust" understanding has happened to me at two places where I have worked, both of which have been after leaving twi. It's never happened to me at church.
Shaking the dust off from your feet -- and leaving that "place", the presence of that/those person(s) -- keeps the "dirt" of their sin from getting you "dirty."
I would say this situation is not one that needs our forgiveness, but the people we leave have made their decision in the eyes of the Lord.
When I was in this situation, I had no more help, I was no more of benefit to help the situation.
Maybe someone else could get God's help to them, but not me, not at that time.
And in both situations I experienced unjust treatment.
(I didn't get a "Shake the dust off your feet" thought when I left twi -- I was kicked out and just felt horribly betrayed and abandoned. Greasespot Cafe is still helping me come to grips with that trauma. Thank goodness :) )
In hope,
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HCW
I'm thinking that forgiveness is a gift that the forgiver gives to the forgiven. I see forgiveness on two planes, the spiritual where only God can forgive sin against Him, and human where we can act like God and give forgiveness to anyone we choose whenever we choose for whatever we choose.
True forgiveness has nothing to do with what the forgiven is currently doing. If the forgiven repeats the incident forgiven, the forgiver can give forgiveness anew as he sees fit.
Forgiving and forgetting are mutually exclusive.
One is not required by God to forget once he has forgiven. As high as heaven is above the Earth, so high are God's ways above our ways and His thought processes above ours.
If one forgets that their ex spouse, for example, is a filandering adulterer and does not act (as in divorce) on the knowledge and remarries the spouse (because they have actually forgotten what they forgave the jerk for.... they are in fact GIVING the jerk a golden opportunity to jerk them around AGAIN.
It is possible for one to exact consequences on the forgiven without rescinding his forgiveness.
I wouldn't go to Pastor Dave's new church either. Not because I haven't forgiven him for cheating on his first wife, but because my knowledge of his actions tells me that his actions disqualify him from the Biblical definition of an overseer. If you know something bad about someone, not being taken in by the bad is an act of wisdom - not forgiveness.
My experience, as a human, is that my forgiving others frees me from residual ill will that is natural to feel when I've been wronged. That feels good. It feels good for me, as a forgiver to leave the ill will on the one who done me wrong. It allows me to take what they meant for evil and turn it into good.
I think forgiveness is simple.
One can "just do it."
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ChattyKathy
My regrets that I didn't read this thread until now. Excellent questions, answers and viewpoints spoken here.
As for me I feel to harbor sin against someone harms me and in so doing puts some of the responsibility for my compromised health mentally, physically and spiritually on me. It doesn't mean I invited the sin against myself or that I think the sinner deserves anything. He/she are no longer the issue. I the receiver am. And what I do with their sin against me is mine to sort through at that point. When I see my maker someday that person(s) will not be standing next to me as part of my wholeness or lack thereof. It will be simply me and what I have or have not done for my own self.
If Bob sins against Nancy and I being Nancy's best friend were to become responsible for their hearts intent it would make it rather impossible for me to live any type of peaceable life. All I can do in that case is comfort and suggest (if I feel I have something worth offering) so that I might be a part of the support group while Nancy and Bob work through what is theirs solely to do and either come to or don't come to a resolution. I hold no power for either of them.
I have experience in forgiving my trespassers and know the inward benefit of doing so. I've been on the 'before I forgave him' and 'after I forgave him' side and there is no question as to which side I began to find my healing on. No question!
But since I can't forgive another's sin against another it doesn't mean I have to hate as the abused hates their abuser either. And I believe there are generations of people who continue to hate others who never experientially did a thing to them and the results of that deep seeded hate harms the innocent the moment they take on inherited baggage. And wars and killing and prejudice survive.
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Kit Sober
Received in email today:
Author Phillip Yancy tells a story about South Africa in his book “Rumors Of Another World.” His story in based on today’s scripture which clearly tells us how to treat our enemies.
In 1994 Nelson Mandela became the President of South Africa when the previous apartheid government was voted out of office. Mandela immediately appointed a commission to seek out and bring to justice those who had been guilty of atrocities during the time of apartheid. The commission was empowered with the responsibility to send to trial and punish anyone found guilty.
But the commission was encouraged to provide amnesty to anyone who voluntarily faced his accusers and confessed his guilt.
An officer came forward and asked for amnesty. He was brought before the commission. An aged woman was brought face-to-face with the officer who had brutally murdered her only son and her beloved husband.
Asked what she wanted from him, she said, "Although I have no family, I still have a lot of love to give." She requested that the officer visit her regularly so she could mother him. Then she said, "I would like to embrace him so he can know that my forgiveness is real."
In Yancey’s story the elderly woman made her way to the witness stand --- the officer became so overwhelmed with shame and remorse that he fainted. The pain that woman inflicted was not worldly revenge with the sword but the purifying fire of a God given love that can lead to repentance and reconciliation.
I believe that is a good example of how to apply this Bible verse.
Scripture: Romans 12:20
“If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head.”
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doojable
I heard the following today:
Unforgiveness and revenge is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die.
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now I see
I think the answer lies in the question, has God forgiven Satan?
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Oakspear
Forgive me (
) if I don't come at this from a biblical perspective, but I think that forgiveness is at once situational and shades of grey, a continuum. There is also the aspect of forgiveness where you put the anger at the transgression out of your heart and the aspect where you absolve the one being forgiven of consequenses. Definitely not black and white in my view.
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doojable
I agree with you Oakspear.
Also, the whole nature of "forigiveness = forgetting and never mentioning again" is wrong, IMNSHO.
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socks
Forgiveness, "forgiveness", may represent the only practical way to bring to people back together into a desired relationship when the relationships taken a hit, been damaged or broken.
Restitution is often considered a requirement for forgiveness but again - practically speaking - it might not accomplish anything other than replace what was taken or damaged. Someone doing something to another, a wrong, and then saying they're sorry and wanting to make it right is certainly desirable, but the other side of the coin may never get flipped.
Forgiveness may or may not be extended. Restitution and recognition isn't forgiveness. I might think of restituton as "justice".
So if restitution is made, is forgiveness the just response? Is it part of justice?
I guess what I'm thinking is - if I take forgiveness out of a dynamic process between two people's interactions and just treat it as a standalone concept, I think it ends up differently than if I apply it to a circumstance like we seem to be discussing, where there's wrong done, etc. and forgiveness is defined in light of that.
If restitution is required and it's accomplished, then is forgiveness the required response?
If restitution isn't accomplished, is forgiveness a just response?
God hasn't forgiven without restitution- "redemption" was accomplished through Christ. As a recipient I benefit by "grace". But in God's system it seems that things had to be made right. Once that's done it's God's responsibility to extend forgiveness through grace, or so a lot of us believe.
What if God held grudges?
I'm pondering that because I think as humans we may mean well, but true "forgiveness", even in the best of all worlds and where justice has been served may not be forthcoming regardless of what's done. Choice and action has to be taken by someone who can do it. If they can't or don't want to, it's not going to happen no matter what.
That being the case whatever is expected from forgiveness won't happen unless a person wants to extend it and can, in a real way. Where a breach has been realized both sides have thiings to do to "forgive".
?
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ChattyKathy
Forgiving I did to further my healing. Without it I'd never have been able to step forward. But once I did that the forgetting wasn't as critical because I'd chosen the forgiveness and there was power in that for me.
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now I see
I think when dealing with relationships that have a capacity for restitution it
is relatively straightforward and "easier" to apply forgiveness.
What is harder to define is forgiveness when the effect of what the other person or entity has done to you has changed your life in a way that was unwanted where you’ll never be the same again, and when the offender is unrepentant, reprobate, still wants to harm you-and in a worse way, and is therefore dangerous for you and others.
What arethe biblical answers to forgiveness in these extreem situations? Can others define when and how someone else is to forgive? How did Christ act toward the Pharisees, how was forgiveness a part of that? How has God dealt with the Lucifer and his fallen angels? What part of forgiveness did He apply?
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ChattyKathy
This is my situation and I chose to forgive for my healing not for theirs. But I can't look at myself as never being the same again or I'd not even try to become healed.
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socks
Hi Chatty!
That's where forgiveness could be looked at, outside of a system of justice where there's wrong done, wrong determined and judged, wrong righted and a final declaration of a satisfactory outcome. (That still doesn't completely guarantee "forgiveness" in the "heart" of the offended or that it's everl received in kind.)
From God's standpoint, restitution was required, and Christ was that. It could be described as an offense that's "unforgivable" in that there was no way for the offender to make it completely right per the requirements without Christ.
Christ forgave as God forgave, while on earth it's where we see Christ literally forgiving as God forgives. So we have an example there.
Basically God provided the means for forgiveness to occur, and has offered it. We are "forgiven" in Christ, even if we don't accept it, it's extended in that the restitution was made.
We're also surrounded all the time with situations where restitution isn't possible in full for any number of reasons.
?
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cman
As one - me - that has asked for forgiveness, more then once.
It is certainly welcome and a reminder to to not do it again.
Though I had and asked again and got it.
Still it sticks in my head to live up to not doing or doing the wrong thing.
Because mainly the person that gave the forgiveness also gives me a thing or two or more.
For one that person that forgave you, that strength is seen and shared.
There is a sense of worth for the forgiver and the forgiven.
A faith from someone else in me strengthens my own faith in being able to live up to this that is seen between us.
Seen by the forgiver first I think, then the forgiven........
Thought I'd add the other side of forgiveness a bit.
From the one needing it.
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ChattyKathy
Great thoughts guys and some I will ponder on today as I work but I can't give it the time I'd like to now.
Hugs!
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ChattyKathy
This has prompted me to think about something I'd not ever done. That being did God in fact forgive Satan.
I've always held onto this verse and it has aided in never placing blame on God:
James 1:17
Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
What it tells me is that God would have to do what his son said was not possible for him to do. To withhold forgiveness from Satan would be contrary to his stand.
Or so this fits for my head based on what I know and where I'm at.
I also don't believe that restitution is always available and if we realize that going into the forgiveness process and still choose to forgive it has to be better for the soul than to harbor. Where in some instances wrecks havoc to the injury.
I can trust that God will and has forgiven me. And it would be wonderful if the sinner (et all) desired that same forgiveness but as stated in this thread they have to want it and what they do or don't hold inside them will be theirs alone to face their maker with. What I do with what I have left of me will be what I face my maker with. I can't afford not to forgive.
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