Mark 2:6But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
What does that verse tell you? How does it relate to my questions?
I'm not asking to argue. I just mean I want to know what you think in relation to the question I posed. I'm familiar with the verse, but it doesn't answer the questions. It only restates what I said: the Christ had the authority to forgive sin.
I think it is allways appropriate but I have no verse to show you
Why do I think it is allways appropriate because it helps us move on
I might say I am sorry even if I think I did no wrong because I do not want a miss understanding holding me back from having a friendship with a person
I think sin holds us back and its easier to say I am sorry than think on what happen right or wrong
If forgiveness helps us as a group
then helps us move on I am for it
Now I only try not to wait until a apologize because I want peace and love
I believe if a fight begins both sides are some what wrong
the first person for saying or written something that hurt another
the second for letting a maybe miss understanding get to them were they are hurt too
all places need more stoping and asking questions
but we all know with some people that does not work and then its up to the board or the person in charged
I believe Jesus Christ forgave sins that God had all ready forgiven
most people ask for forgiveness from God over and over and maybe all Jesus Christ did was tell them they were forgiven
Are you suggesting that you have the right to forgive someone for what that person does to me? Do i even get a vote? When you say "forgiveness is always appropriate," I think it's a great sentiment. But if you think it through, that sentiment is extremely presumptuous and arrogant. Who am I to forgive someone for the wrong they've done to someone else?
Interesting question, Raf. Some thoughts, I'll shoot out. Couple verses come to mind -
2 Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Trespasses appear (in 'the greek') in Matt. 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Trespasses means mistakes, errors, missteps.
Sin - big topic. What it is, etc. A condition of man, the natural state of man? My impression of the definition of sin is that it relates to what mankind does, in the form of transgressions against God, disobedience whether through ignorance or deliberate acts.
I've often thought about the record of Adam and Eve and what they "did" and what "happened" afterwards. The capacity to transgress was within them, obviously. It was brought out by temptation. So a question comes to mind - would man sin if not given the option, if not tempted? Would it be inevitable or no? Neither one of them in the story are painted to have much of a problem getting confused about the right thing to do pretty quickly.
My take on Cor. 5:19 is that the "word of reconciliation" allows those who know what God has done in Christ to take that message to others. God reconciled through Christ, trespasses not imputed but forgiven. So - it isn't that there was no restitution being made, rather that there was and Christ made it for us.
I don't see that "we" can step into that - there's a direct line from God to Christ to us and our involvement doesn't do anything. We're the ones being forgiven.
We can forgive others as God did in Christ, after that example. Doing so doesn't bring that person forgiveness from God, that I see.
This may sound kind of stupid but - I do think it goes a long way for setting the environment for that to happen though, where a person comes to God through Christ and is reunited with God through Christ. By forgiving as He has forgiven, we see the example of it.
Anyone who's been forgiven through Christ has a reason to do that - from the standpoint that we accept it as a "free" gift. Freely received, we can easily see how it would be expected that we would freely give, then.
As Christ illustrated in the parable of the man who owed the debt, and was "forgiven" what he owed, then turned around and made demands of those who were in debt to him. That was judged wrong of him to do, since he'd had his own debt wiped clean, it was expected that he'd act in kind.
I've been thinking about this myself, lately. Maybe not the same questions as yours…but just wondering about all that's involved with forgiveness, the purpose of forgiveness…I've even been working up a draft to start a thread Exploring Forgiveness – but hey – I'm an opportunist – you've already got one started ! So – please forgive me if this stuff is not exactly what you're looking for or rough around the edges…not saying it's the biblical perspective – just things I'm thinking about…
Thinking out loud: With your asking "when is forgiveness appropriate?" – my mind thought along the lines of looking for the purpose of forgiveness. Forgiveness implies a trespass has been committed and needs resolution. I do think for the Christian, forgiveness is one of the core elements that maintains a healthy relationship with God and people. To think that all forgiveness does is alleviate guilt or liability is to ignore the bigger picture. Forgiveness involves at least two persons – an offended party and the offender. The bigger picture is the relationship between the two – the commerce between two hearts – or lack thereof.
The Dictionary of Pastoral Care and Counseling, General Editor Rodney Hunter, 1990, page 438 has this on forgiveness:
"…Forgiveness always has a social context. It is a transaction between God and humanity, between two or more persons, or even between two or more "selves" in the developmental history of one person. Forgiveness is not the equivalent of reconciliation, however; it is the means by which barriers to reconciliation [which may or may not follow] are removed."
Perhaps one could consider the church discipline recommended by Paul in his first letter to Corinthians as the opposite of forgiveness. Paul reproved the Corinthians for bragging about how "forgiving" they were towards a blatant sin that would devastate the local church.
I Corinthians 5:1-13 NIV
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]
By the time II Corinthians was written – this disciplinary action of the church was successful! The offender had repented – it was time to grant forgiveness.
II Corinthians 2:1-11 NIV
1 So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you. 2 For if I grieve you, who is left to make me glad but you whom I have grieved? 3 I wrote as I did so that when I came I should not be distressed by those who ought to make me rejoice. I had confidence in all of you, that you would all share my joy. 4 For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you.
5 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9 The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10 If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
When is it appropriate to withhold forgiveness? I don't know. It appears Paul's motivation in I Corinthians was concern over the negative impact the blatant sin would have on the entire local church. It seems the withholding of forgiveness [don't know if that's the right way to put it] in I Corinthians did something to bring about a change in the heart of the offender. The whole situation strikes me as unusual – a double whammy. In the first letter, Paul gets all over the Corinthian church for cutting the offender a bunch of slack and recommends they boot him out of church. It could easily be said Paul wasn't a very forgiving person. But when we get to the second letter we see what a positive resolution was wrought for the entire local church through Paul's tough stand against sin and concern for sincerity and truth.
II Corinthians 7:8-13 NIV
8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 12 So even though I wrote to you, it was not on account of the one who did the wrong or of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourselves how devoted to us you are. 13 By all this we are encouraged.
Perhaps they all learned a few things about forgiveness. Maybe when it's appropriate – when it's not. Maybe the reason God expects both sides of the offense to proceed through each "phase" on the forgiveness/reconciliation road is so that everyone's heart truly engages the truth…experiencing the truth personally…removing barriers…healing – a road traveled together by both parties. The whole process is not meant to pay a penalty for sins – as if we are buying/selling forgiveness. The precious blood of our Lord Jesus took care of all the costs! I believe God designed the process to somehow change how both sides relate to each other – for the better! Genuine conflict resolution.
This doesn't address your question, as I see it, but I thought it was important to enter it
into the discussion as early as possible, for general relevance's sake...
Matthew 18: 15-35 (NASB)
15"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, (P)let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, (T)how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to (U)seven times?"
22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
Of course, there is also an exception to forgiveness...
Matthew 12:31-32 (NASB)
" 31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. "
Oh, here's what I was looking for...
Luke 17:3-5 (NASB)
3"Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4"And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."
5The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"
What does that verse tell you? How does it relate to my questions?
I'm not asking to argue. I just mean I want to know what you think in relation to the question I posed. I'm familiar with the verse, but it doesn't answer the questions. It only restates what I said: the Christ had the authority to forgive sin.
Hey Raf, sorry it took a while to get back to you.
That was the first verses that came to mind upon reading your post.
Forgiveness is healing. There is no other thing greater then the healing in forgiveness.
So I didn't have some long drawn out thoughts on the matter just those few verses.
And it's healing power. Without forgiveness there is no healing.
On one hand, we are called to forgive trespasses against us. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." "Forgive and ye shall be forgiven."
On the other hand, there are loads of references that state that an individual, confronted with his sin, who does not repent of that sin, should be shunned: "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." "you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." "As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him," and so on...
So it seems to me that if the sinner acknowledges those sins (and he may need to be confronted), he is to be forgiven. But if the sinner is obstinate in his sin, after being confronted, he is to be put out (presumably until such time as he is suitably penitent).
That's on an exterior basis. But, on an interior basis, it appears that we are to, at least inwardly, forgive all trespasses against us: "And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against any one; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses."
I would think that the resentment that one could hold inside from an unforgiven sin could become a roadblock for that one's relationship with God.
As far as forgiving somebody's sins when those sins are not against you...why would one even need to do so anyway? If those sins are against the unity of the Church (the Body of Christ) or impact its peace and fellowship, then those verses about confrontation would apply, but otherwise, why would it be any of your business one way or the other?
And as far as somebody acting as an agent for God...well, there are ample examples in the NT where the apostles were delegated that authority by Christ. Christian groups who believe in apostolic succession (e.g., the Catholics, the Orthodox, the Anglicans, the Lutherans) believe that this authority is passed down, via apostolic succession, to modern-day bishops who then empower priests to administer that authority (via the sacrament of penance). And there is scriptural evidence of that. (btw, if somebody wants to talk about apostolic succession, start a different thread) But I also acknowledge that this is not a universally held belief among protestants.
Everyone has there own point of view but for me to forgive someone who did wrong to me that person had to have to courage to admit that they did something wrong in the frist place.If that person does not then I let them go until they repent.
That's on an exterior basis. But, on an interior basis, it appears that we are to, at least inwardly, forgive all trespasses against us: "And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against any one; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses."
I would think that the resentment that one could hold inside from an unforgiven sin could become a roadblock for that one's relationship with God.
That's my belief, Mark. Says it well.
Jesus said "Father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing".
I would say the highest form of living we can aspire to is to forgive others. It's always appropriate, it's up to us to decide if and when we're going to do it. Forcing ourselves or each other to "do it" doesn't work. That's not forgiving.
Life is a roller coaster ride for a good part of the time, and a lot of screaming, spewing and cursing goes along with it. People do weird things when their lunch is coming up.
If a person was face to face with God and admiring his latest universe-in-the-works or whatever, would they deliberately swear at Him and curse Him? Of course not. He's God, I'm not, I'd be nice. But people do that all the time, to each other, to the world we do see. Then people wonder why things don't go so well.
There's plenty of people that have done me wrong in some form or another over my life and don't think twice about it and probably wouldn't consider seeking restitution with me. I don't give a ratz asz if they do or not. If I feel or felt restitution was justified and the right thing to do, I'd pursue it. If not, I would think about letting it go.
I think the most important form forgiveness can take is when it doesn't seem appropriate or deserved. I may not play Dominoes with them ever again but I can get on knowing that I'll be the better person for dealing with it in my heart and settling the matter for myself. If the clouds ever clear, we have a foundation to work from, start over, whatever.
At least I try. Everyone has their bad moments, in which case you may want to clear the room. Hey, nobody's perfect!
a few points of forgiveness that are benchmarks for me (also affirms what others have said):
:) "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do," has always been a benchmark for me for who-deserves-forgiveness. I have met no one who has done me worse than what people did to the Lord.
:) I agree that you only have authority to forgive wrongs done to you; however, I would include public wrongs, wrongs to the Church such as vpw and lcm performed as they hurt all of us, as requiring me to give my personal forgiveness for their heinous crimes (I'm working at it. Not there, yet.)
:) I think the context of forgiveness in which 2Co 2:11 - Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices - is found points out to me that to not forgive is the way satan gets avantage of us, and that satan's leading us to not forgive is his device, not the Lord's.
:) Forgiveness is an act, a deed (in deed indeed). "Whatever" doesn't fulfill forgiveness. Forgiveness can only be done by the power of the Holy Spirit. On my own strength, I could not.
As you may or may not suspect, your second point was why I started this thread.
So let me ask this: insofar as one may say "For my part, I forgive LCM and VPW for what they did to the church," what's the practical application of it? Does it mean we no longer mention what they did?
And I'm not talking about the restoration of fellowship: I think it would be unwise if, having unilaterally forgiven LCM for his actions, I were to attend a church where he was the leader.
Let's take LCM out of this and talk instead about Pastor Dave, a real person who was the pastor at a large South Florida church. I've written about him before.
Here's a guy who ran a church but had an affair with a parishioner and divorced his wife. Then he went out and started another church.
Ok, so I forgive him for what he did to the church. But I'm not going to his new church. And if I talk to anyone from his new church or his old church and that subject comes up, I think it's fair to say I don't like what he did and I'm not going to support him in it. So have I truly forgiven if I haven't forgotten?
forgivness is always appropriate when we have been wronged by another.
BUt, as to what forgiveness entails, I have always found it fascinating that Christ on the cross " Father forgive them....." Not "I forgive them..." or even speaking directly to the crowd "I forgive you....."
From this and other verses, " as ye forgive so shall ye be forgiven" ( that may not be exactly correct since I am sans Bible at the computer), it was driven home to me that what is important is that the wrongdoer in your life not be held accountable before the Almighty for his sin.
That was a huge step for me when I could say of my ex husband. " God, I ask that you not hold against him any of the wrongs he has done me" then extend that to others that I regard as toxic and do not want anywhere in my life.
Then I found I could pray "Heavenly Father please, bless, protect and guide my enemies..........."
Too many churches have tried to twist forgiveness into this knot of "you must forgive and forget" "if you never want to have anything to do with that person you really haven't forgiven" etc etc.
The whole issue is how will God look at the wrongdoers and your respective sins. If those who have wronged you are sin free in that regard because God has already forgiven their sins at your behest while you were still on earth, then it stands to reason that GOd will forgive your sins because of the mercy you have extended to your fellow man. The Atonement of Christ is for those sins that GOd hasn't forgiven, and it is presumptuous of the aforementioned churches to assume that God cannot or will not forgive outside of the atonement when scripture clearly states the contrary.
We are to forgive all people of any wrongs they do.
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Comment: That does not mean trust them again.
Matthewt 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Comment: Even if they do not confess this as a wrong we are to forgive them. For liberty is not only for the select few...
For their own sin is but an illusion, an eclipse of their holy spirit, that their mind is darkened they are still our family. It is God that cleanses us of unrighteousness not people.
There is justice and physical punishment of human law (man's day) for those who drastically overstep the law of liberty.
Fellowship is not with the flesh but it is with the spirit and the spirit is perfect and incorruptible. The problems is we try to live other's lives rather than simply being a lamp unto their feet.
When we do not forgive, then the offense inside the believer's mind becomes bitterness and soon the believer's heart lacks tenderness then the heart of the mind is obstructed by fear. And "fear is sand in the machinery of life".
Thus God is obstructed... for it is God's image which we shine not our own, not the wrongs of the flesh of others but the perfection of the spirit.
So look past the flesh and see the spirit and be humbled that we are not stricken with the same lack of belief.
Fellowship is only with God. Though we fellowship with others it is still God in them that we fellowship with. Not our own image. The flesh only breeds pride self pride in the household.
Thus we seek where we find the most light and where the image of God through Christ is the most resplendent and fine. Where truth is illuminated in the greatest clarity. We share this light to the world in hope that the light will fulfill it's promise.
We look to the heart of the created spirit person which makes intersession for the flesh of the downtrodden through Christ our lord.
Romans 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned [upon all] by one [Adam] ; much more they which receive abundance of grace [forgiveness to all] and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
1Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
Comment: The best we can do is not let their fault to slow us down to take our eyes off the mark of reaching the world with the truth of God's world.
Then this darkness becomes insignificant in the scope of all things considered.
Sin consciousness is exactly that it steals the consciousness of not only those who sin but those who refuse to forgive with grace and liberty.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
So let me ask this: insofar as one may say "For my part, I forgive LCM and VPW for what they did to the church," what's the practical application of it? Does it mean we no longer mention what they did?
Raf, those are two excellent questions. I've always thought that forgiving others has more to do with your own state of mind and subsequently health, while at the same time beneficial to the minds of others. Maybe the saying "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" comes into play here and in thinking about that principle I can see that anytime you withhold forgiveness it will only further harden your heart and the root of bitterness, like a cancer, will rob you of the love for life.
On the other matter -- well -- I suppose that depends on much you talk about them and with what attitude you approach the subject. All things done in moderation probably won't hurt you too much (if at all) but when the subject seems to consume most of your thoughts and conversations with others maybe it's time to step back and then move forward. I don't know -- maybe that's why God (through Paul) admonishes us in Philippians 3: 13 and 14 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." It's very easy to miss that mark when your focus is on what people do instead of what Jesus Christ did for people.
It is God who knows the spirit of those who have committed this atrocity.
It is God who judges the spirit.
I had a believer once remark to me... "They're not born again..."
I replied how do you know?
It is again "pride that goes before a fall".
That we forgive all unless God tells us by revelation otherwise and "you better be sure..."
Mark and avoid is truly something a believer does needs to face.
For if a person in their mind has it out for you you need to cease any and all involvement with this person...
This seems inconceivable that the love of God cannot reach this person.
Sometimes a person's mind is so blinded that they become dangerous to themselves and others. They become so distraught by sin consciousness that they are like a person drowning. They are going to to pull down anyone with them who tries to help them. You can teach them the way but then you have to back off and let the word do the work. Again it seems inconceivable that a person in light of the word can still be dangerous to a believer but they can. Even though God has their spirit the devil still has their mind. So the only safe course is to "mark and avoid". I don't even like that term but it is Biblical. This seems to go against the law of liberty and love.. It does not mean you stop loving them for God loves us even though we on the outside are not perfect. But God will tell you that this person will not change... I apply the three strikes rule.
The devil will flee if we resist him three times and the believer should flee if they do not resist the devil three times... (it is simple logic as a natural protective mechanism)
(Figuratively it is like handling snakes.)
Three strikes and it is time to give the friendship a rest and four strikes and it may be time to completely avoid. For they can be a danger to you and themselves at this point. You may still have to live in the same town you can be friendly but you do not have to be in their lives and vise versa. They will know why... Because their word is not trustworthy... They have vowed to not become aggressive and vicious but they time and again peruse this course... Nothing but backing off is the reasonable duty to the self.
Again we forgive them. In my whole lifetime God has never told me "someone was seed"...
To assume this is to make a judgment that is God's alone to make... Usually they are born of God's seed and the mind is blinded... That God will still save them in the end.. This is the illusion of the flesh. When we look to the flesh we see sin but when we look to the spirit we see the love of God. Always look to the spirit and give people the benefit of the doubt... But be aware of the flesh and be cunning, wise and tough "love" is not out of the question. Tough love is to say your peace back completely off and give it a rest.
We are not supposed to force ideas on people. Show by example and let the spirit do the work, time with the word can heal the mind and body. They have to put on the mind of Christ in their own time just as we all sit, stood and walked in our own time. Keep focused on the inner person. Yet back off if they are unforgiving of themselves for sinconsciousness is not something to toy with. You will know by revelation when their transgressions have overstepped the reasonable boundaries of decorum.
God will tell you when they have committed the same offense against you enough that it is time to mark and avoid. It seems inconceivable that one would do this but sometimes there is really no other option then to be drawn into their own nightmare and violence time and again. When life becomes unreal then you are living in someones ill conceived dream and it is time to wake up and remove yourself from their influence... It will take time on their own with their own fellowship with God for them to come to the light if ever. All we can do is point the way.
Sometimes years, sometimes never... "Sometimes they have to reach the bottom of the barrel and the only way farther down once they reach the bottom of the barrel is death..." Even this is regrettable and unacceptable but still, "forgivable"... You can mark and avoid but STILL forgive... Do not carry hate and animosity ever... this is traveling light, this is giving your cares to God. This is living in faith and not fear. Fear and hate is never the right way it will never produce the desired results. Only backing off and forgiving and time alone with God will help them at this point.
We are not to speak the word with force but with love... boldness is not force for even boldness must be tempered with love. Speak the truth and let the word itself do the changing of people.
When is it time to let them back into your life? Sometimes never, you may have to face this consequence. Sometimes they remain a menace until they are taken down to the grave by their own spiritual plagues. It is an unfortunate fact of life that every believer needs to be aware of and act accordingly. It is not that God cannot or has not saved them but the word needs time to do it's work on the habit patterns of their mind and flesh...
THanks for you imput DWW- Its a continual work in progress..I dont anyone can be perfect all the time..especially if you have been 'Spiritualy Abused' or have suffered 'Church Abuse'. I do understand not allowing the heart get to get hardened..To me somehow that relates to me, broken fellowship..that can translate into broken fellowship with God and the brethren..the word say's to restore you brother who has been at faullt..I think that is saying directly, to forgive and build..
I guess I would differentiate between those people who come to me and apologize and those who continue to believe that they are justified in their error. Forgiveness is appropriate for both groups (and I think is mandated for both groups) at least partly because of what lack of forgiveness would do to the person who persists in holding a grudge; trust is not mandated, and in some cases is not appropriate because to trust leaves yourself open to more damage, as has already been pointed out. I wonder if in the example of the man to whom Jesus said 'Son, thy sins are forgiven thee', the reason he said that is because he recognized that condemnation was holding the man back from receiving the healing that he needed. That's just a thought, and I can't back it up with anything.
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cman
Mark 2:6But there were certain of the scribes sitting there, and reasoning in their hearts, 7Why doth this man thus speak blasphemies? who can forgive sins but God only? 8And immediately when Jesus perceived in his spirit that they so reasoned within themselves, he said unto them, Why reason ye these things in your hearts? 9Whether is it easier to say to the sick of the palsy, Thy sins be forgiven thee; or to say, Arise, and take up thy bed, and walk? 10But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (he saith to the sick of the palsy,)
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Raf
cman,
What does that verse tell you? How does it relate to my questions?
I'm not asking to argue. I just mean I want to know what you think in relation to the question I posed. I'm familiar with the verse, but it doesn't answer the questions. It only restates what I said: the Christ had the authority to forgive sin.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Raf
God loves you my dear friend
you asked "When is forgiveness appropriate?"
I think it is allways appropriate but I have no verse to show you
Why do I think it is allways appropriate because it helps us move on
I might say I am sorry even if I think I did no wrong because I do not want a miss understanding holding me back from having a friendship with a person
I think sin holds us back and its easier to say I am sorry than think on what happen right or wrong
If forgiveness helps us as a group
then helps us move on I am for it
Now I only try not to wait until a apologize because I want peace and love
I believe if a fight begins both sides are some what wrong
the first person for saying or written something that hurt another
the second for letting a maybe miss understanding get to them were they are hurt too
all places need more stoping and asking questions
but we all know with some people that does not work and then its up to the board or the person in charged
I believe Jesus Christ forgave sins that God had all ready forgiven
most people ask for forgiveness from God over and over and maybe all Jesus Christ did was tell them they were forgiven
I wish I had a better answer
but this is a great topic my friend
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Raf
Roy,
Are you suggesting that you have the right to forgive someone for what that person does to me? Do i even get a vote? When you say "forgiveness is always appropriate," I think it's a great sentiment. But if you think it through, that sentiment is extremely presumptuous and arrogant. Who am I to forgive someone for the wrong they've done to someone else?
Am I off base?
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year2027
God first
Beloved Raf
God loves you my dear friend
no I did not mean it that way I could not forgive someone for what they did to another person but that forgiveness is allways appropriate for us all
each person controls what is and if forgiveness is given
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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year2027
God first
Beloved Raf
God loves you my dear friend
I beeb thinking of your second part of the question
second part of the question "can you be delegated to forgive someone for wronging someone else"
Jesus Christ was given that right to forgive in place of God
when we sin it like breaking the rules on a board by saying something bad about another board member
the board head can forgive for breaking the rule but forgivness saying something bad about another board member must come from the board member
God and Christ only forgive for the sin which is against the law of love but the other is up to the other person
Christ speakes for God like a lawyer might speak for me in a law of court
hopes this helps
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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socks
Interesting question, Raf. Some thoughts, I'll shoot out. Couple verses come to mind -
2 Cor. 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Trespasses appear (in 'the greek') in Matt. 6:14 For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.
Trespasses means mistakes, errors, missteps.
Sin - big topic. What it is, etc. A condition of man, the natural state of man? My impression of the definition of sin is that it relates to what mankind does, in the form of transgressions against God, disobedience whether through ignorance or deliberate acts.
I've often thought about the record of Adam and Eve and what they "did" and what "happened" afterwards. The capacity to transgress was within them, obviously. It was brought out by temptation. So a question comes to mind - would man sin if not given the option, if not tempted? Would it be inevitable or no? Neither one of them in the story are painted to have much of a problem getting confused about the right thing to do pretty quickly.
My take on Cor. 5:19 is that the "word of reconciliation" allows those who know what God has done in Christ to take that message to others. God reconciled through Christ, trespasses not imputed but forgiven. So - it isn't that there was no restitution being made, rather that there was and Christ made it for us.
I don't see that "we" can step into that - there's a direct line from God to Christ to us and our involvement doesn't do anything. We're the ones being forgiven.
We can forgive others as God did in Christ, after that example. Doing so doesn't bring that person forgiveness from God, that I see.
This may sound kind of stupid but - I do think it goes a long way for setting the environment for that to happen though, where a person comes to God through Christ and is reunited with God through Christ. By forgiving as He has forgiven, we see the example of it.
Anyone who's been forgiven through Christ has a reason to do that - from the standpoint that we accept it as a "free" gift. Freely received, we can easily see how it would be expected that we would freely give, then.
As Christ illustrated in the parable of the man who owed the debt, and was "forgiven" what he owed, then turned around and made demands of those who were in debt to him. That was judged wrong of him to do, since he'd had his own debt wiped clean, it was expected that he'd act in kind.
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T-Bone
I've been thinking about this myself, lately. Maybe not the same questions as yours…but just wondering about all that's involved with forgiveness, the purpose of forgiveness…I've even been working up a draft to start a thread Exploring Forgiveness – but hey – I'm an opportunist – you've already got one started
! So – please forgive me if this stuff is not exactly what you're looking for or rough around the edges…not saying it's the biblical perspective – just things I'm thinking about…
Thinking out loud: With your asking "when is forgiveness appropriate?" – my mind thought along the lines of looking for the purpose of forgiveness. Forgiveness implies a trespass has been committed and needs resolution. I do think for the Christian, forgiveness is one of the core elements that maintains a healthy relationship with God and people. To think that all forgiveness does is alleviate guilt or liability is to ignore the bigger picture. Forgiveness involves at least two persons – an offended party and the offender. The bigger picture is the relationship between the two – the commerce between two hearts – or lack thereof.
The Dictionary of Pastoral Care and Counseling, General Editor Rodney Hunter, 1990, page 438 has this on forgiveness:
"…Forgiveness always has a social context. It is a transaction between God and humanity, between two or more persons, or even between two or more "selves" in the developmental history of one person. Forgiveness is not the equivalent of reconciliation, however; it is the means by which barriers to reconciliation [which may or may not follow] are removed."
Perhaps one could consider the church discipline recommended by Paul in his first letter to Corinthians as the opposite of forgiveness. Paul reproved the Corinthians for bragging about how "forgiving" they were towards a blatant sin that would devastate the local church.
I Corinthians 5:1-13 NIV
1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and of a kind that does not occur even among pagans: A man has his father's wife. 2 And you are proud! Shouldn't you rather have been filled with grief and have put out of your fellowship the man who did this? 3 Even though I am not physically present, I am with you in spirit. And I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present. 4 When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5 hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord.
6 Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? 7 Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast—as you really are. For Christ, our Passover lamb, has been sacrificed. 8 Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth.
9 I have written you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people— 10 not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. 11 But now I am writing you that you must not associate with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.
12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? 13 God will judge those outside. "Expel the wicked man from among you."[b]
By the time II Corinthians was written – this disciplinary action of the church was successful! The offender had repented – it was time to grant forgiveness.
II Corinthians 2:1-11 NIV
1 So I made up my mind that I would not make another painful visit to you. 2 For if I grieve you, who is left to make me glad but you whom I have grieved? 3 I wrote as I did so that when I came I should not be distressed by those who ought to make me rejoice. I had confidence in all of you, that you would all share my joy. 4 For I wrote you out of great distress and anguish of heart and with many tears, not to grieve you but to let you know the depth of my love for you.
5 If anyone has caused grief, he has not so much grieved me as he has grieved all of you, to some extent—not to put it too severely. 6 The punishment inflicted on him by the majority is sufficient for him. 7 Now instead, you ought to forgive and comfort him, so that he will not be overwhelmed by excessive sorrow. 8 I urge you, therefore, to reaffirm your love for him. 9 The reason I wrote you was to see if you would stand the test and be obedient in everything. 10 If you forgive anyone, I also forgive him. And what I have forgiven—if there was anything to forgive—I have forgiven in the sight of Christ for your sake, 11 in order that Satan might not outwit us. For we are not unaware of his schemes.
When is it appropriate to withhold forgiveness? I don't know. It appears Paul's motivation in I Corinthians was concern over the negative impact the blatant sin would have on the entire local church. It seems the withholding of forgiveness [don't know if that's the right way to put it] in I Corinthians did something to bring about a change in the heart of the offender. The whole situation strikes me as unusual – a double whammy. In the first letter, Paul gets all over the Corinthian church for cutting the offender a bunch of slack and recommends they boot him out of church. It could easily be said Paul wasn't a very forgiving person. But when we get to the second letter we see what a positive resolution was wrought for the entire local church through Paul's tough stand against sin and concern for sincerity and truth.
II Corinthians 7:8-13 NIV
8 Even if I caused you sorrow by my letter, I do not regret it. Though I did regret it—I see that my letter hurt you, but only for a little while— 9 yet now I am happy, not because you were made sorry, but because your sorrow led you to repentance. For you became sorrowful as God intended and so were not harmed in any way by us. 10 Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death. 11 See what this godly sorrow has produced in you: what earnestness, what eagerness to clear yourselves, what indignation, what alarm, what longing, what concern, what readiness to see justice done. At every point you have proved yourselves to be innocent in this matter. 12 So even though I wrote to you, it was not on account of the one who did the wrong or of the injured party, but rather that before God you could see for yourselves how devoted to us you are. 13 By all this we are encouraged.
Perhaps they all learned a few things about forgiveness. Maybe when it's appropriate – when it's not. Maybe the reason God expects both sides of the offense to proceed through each "phase" on the forgiveness/reconciliation road is so that everyone's heart truly engages the truth…experiencing the truth personally…removing barriers…healing – a road traveled together by both parties. The whole process is not meant to pay a penalty for sins – as if we are buying/selling forgiveness. The precious blood of our Lord Jesus took care of all the costs! I believe God designed the process to somehow change how both sides relate to each other – for the better! Genuine conflict resolution.
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WordWolf
This doesn't address your question, as I see it, but I thought it was important to enter it
into the discussion as early as possible, for general relevance's sake...
Matthew 18: 15-35 (NASB)
15"If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother.
16"But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWO OR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED.
17"If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, (P)let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector.
18"Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
19"Again I say to you, that if two of you agree on earth about anything that they may ask, it shall be done for them by My Father who is in heaven.
20"For where two or three have gathered together in My name, I am there in their midst."
21Then Peter came and said to Him, "Lord, (T)how often shall my brother sin against me and I forgive him? Up to (U)seven times?"
22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you, up to seven times, but up to seventy times seven.
23"For this reason the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his slaves.
24"When he had begun to settle them, one who owed him ten thousand talents was brought to him.
25"But since he did not have the means to repay, his lord commanded him to be sold, along with his wife and children and all that he had, and repayment to be made.
26"So the slave fell to the ground and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'
27"And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt.
28"But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves who owed him a hundred denarii; and he seized him and began to choke him, saying, 'Pay back what you owe.'
29"So his fellow slave fell to the ground and began to plead with him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you.'
30"But he was unwilling and went and threw him in prison until he should pay back what was owed.
31"So when his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they were deeply grieved and came and reported to their lord all that had happened.
32"Then summoning him, his lord said to him, 'You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33'Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34"And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.
35"My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart."
Of course, there is also an exception to forgiveness...
Matthew 12:31-32 (NASB)
" 31"Therefore I say to you, any sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven people, but blasphemy against the Spirit shall not be forgiven.
32"Whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it shall not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come. "
Oh, here's what I was looking for...
Luke 17:3-5 (NASB)
3"Be on your guard! If your brother sins, rebuke him; and if he repents, forgive him.
4"And if he sins against you seven times a day, and returns to you seven times, saying, 'I repent,' forgive him."
5The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!"
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cman
Hey Raf, sorry it took a while to get back to you.
That was the first verses that came to mind upon reading your post.
Forgiveness is healing. There is no other thing greater then the healing in forgiveness.
So I didn't have some long drawn out thoughts on the matter just those few verses.
And it's healing power. Without forgiveness there is no healing.
Should we forgive? Yes.
Should we be forced to? No.
Why forgive? Because it's the right thing to do.
When to communicate it is for each situation.
O and we are the Son of Man, not just Jesus.
We have the same power.
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markomalley
Interesting question, Raf:
On one hand, we are called to forgive trespasses against us. "Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us." "Forgive and ye shall be forgiven."
On the other hand, there are loads of references that state that an individual, confronted with his sin, who does not repent of that sin, should be shunned: "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector." "you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." "As for a man who is factious, after admonishing him once or twice, have nothing more to do with him," and so on...
So it seems to me that if the sinner acknowledges those sins (and he may need to be confronted), he is to be forgiven. But if the sinner is obstinate in his sin, after being confronted, he is to be put out (presumably until such time as he is suitably penitent).
That's on an exterior basis. But, on an interior basis, it appears that we are to, at least inwardly, forgive all trespasses against us: "And whenever you stand praying, forgive, if you have anything against any one; so that your Father also who is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses."
I would think that the resentment that one could hold inside from an unforgiven sin could become a roadblock for that one's relationship with God.
As far as forgiving somebody's sins when those sins are not against you...why would one even need to do so anyway? If those sins are against the unity of the Church (the Body of Christ) or impact its peace and fellowship, then those verses about confrontation would apply, but otherwise, why would it be any of your business one way or the other?
And as far as somebody acting as an agent for God...well, there are ample examples in the NT where the apostles were delegated that authority by Christ. Christian groups who believe in apostolic succession (e.g., the Catholics, the Orthodox, the Anglicans, the Lutherans) believe that this authority is passed down, via apostolic succession, to modern-day bishops who then empower priests to administer that authority (via the sacrament of penance). And there is scriptural evidence of that. (btw, if somebody wants to talk about apostolic succession, start a different thread) But I also acknowledge that this is not a universally held belief among protestants.
Anyway, hope the above helps.
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nyunknown
Everyone has there own point of view but for me to forgive someone who did wrong to me that person had to have to courage to admit that they did something wrong in the frist place.If that person does not then I let them go until they repent.
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socks
That's my belief, Mark. Says it well.
Jesus said "Father forgive them, they don't know what they're doing".
I would say the highest form of living we can aspire to is to forgive others. It's always appropriate, it's up to us to decide if and when we're going to do it. Forcing ourselves or each other to "do it" doesn't work. That's not forgiving.
Life is a roller coaster ride for a good part of the time, and a lot of screaming, spewing and cursing goes along with it. People do weird things when their lunch is coming up.
If a person was face to face with God and admiring his latest universe-in-the-works or whatever, would they deliberately swear at Him and curse Him? Of course not. He's God, I'm not, I'd be nice. But people do that all the time, to each other, to the world we do see. Then people wonder why things don't go so well.
There's plenty of people that have done me wrong in some form or another over my life and don't think twice about it and probably wouldn't consider seeking restitution with me. I don't give a ratz asz if they do or not. If I feel or felt restitution was justified and the right thing to do, I'd pursue it. If not, I would think about letting it go.
I think the most important form forgiveness can take is when it doesn't seem appropriate or deserved. I may not play Dominoes with them ever again but I can get on knowing that I'll be the better person for dealing with it in my heart and settling the matter for myself. If the clouds ever clear, we have a foundation to work from, start over, whatever.
At least I try. Everyone has their bad moments, in which case you may want to clear the room.
Hey, nobody's perfect!
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Kit Sober
a few points of forgiveness that are benchmarks for me (also affirms what others have said):
:) "Forgive them Father for they know not what they do," has always been a benchmark for me for who-deserves-forgiveness. I have met no one who has done me worse than what people did to the Lord.
:) I agree that you only have authority to forgive wrongs done to you; however, I would include public wrongs, wrongs to the Church such as vpw and lcm performed as they hurt all of us, as requiring me to give my personal forgiveness for their heinous crimes (I'm working at it. Not there, yet.)
:) I think the context of forgiveness in which 2Co 2:11 - Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices - is found points out to me that to not forgive is the way satan gets avantage of us, and that satan's leading us to not forgive is his device, not the Lord's.
:) Forgiveness is an act, a deed (in deed indeed). "Whatever" doesn't fulfill forgiveness. Forgiveness can only be done by the power of the Holy Spirit. On my own strength, I could not.
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Raf
Kit,
As you may or may not suspect, your second point was why I started this thread.
So let me ask this: insofar as one may say "For my part, I forgive LCM and VPW for what they did to the church," what's the practical application of it? Does it mean we no longer mention what they did?
And I'm not talking about the restoration of fellowship: I think it would be unwise if, having unilaterally forgiven LCM for his actions, I were to attend a church where he was the leader.
Let's take LCM out of this and talk instead about Pastor Dave, a real person who was the pastor at a large South Florida church. I've written about him before.
Here's a guy who ran a church but had an affair with a parishioner and divorced his wife. Then he went out and started another church.
Ok, so I forgive him for what he did to the church. But I'm not going to his new church. And if I talk to anyone from his new church or his old church and that subject comes up, I think it's fair to say I don't like what he did and I'm not going to support him in it. So have I truly forgiven if I haven't forgotten?
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sirguessalot
it seems clear to me that all our issues of forgiveness only get more important and more pronounced as we near the end of our lives
whatever work we havent done around forgiveness is going to get hotter and heavier as we near "the end times"
which is perhaps why it is such a damnable act to commit a crime against someone that is beyond one's own means to do that work to forgive
there is a part of what we dont work out before we go that surely lingers on the living
which has a devastating effect on the living...giving them even more to work out when they reach the end of their life
such as when a child and a parent doesn't work through their crimes against each other before the parent dies
...the child is almost always still working it out when they are themselves dying...only it has often been amplifed
sadly...entire waves of culture have been carrying many many generations of unforgiven crimes
large swathes of society are up to our eyeballs in blood red grief and unforgivability
with multi-generational legacies of revenge and hate embedded in our stories and theologies
the world is soaking wet with it
as well as the very costly distractions
...
but its all gonna wanna come up in the end...individually, as well as collectively
which is why many wise folks suggest we start working on it at the middle of our lives ...or even better...in our youth
so that we dont have so much homework to do at once ...in our 11th hour
where what we still carry is sitting there like a smoldering lump ...a grain of sand clogging our way like a mountain
people talk about how it is written about "God's terrifying judgement and lake of fire at the end of days"...
i say it has a lot more to do with the end of days in very very practical living ways that are much more closer to home
i cant help but notice that jesus was very specifically passionate about preparing people to die well
...and the implications of that
...
truly sorry for how this will surely seem quite wrong to some
...most our modern mainstream theologies and cultures simply seem to lack the skill to touch this sort of thing
without having to go to some sort of specialist
which is why we keep coming back to it...more and more
and this is my lamentation
...
Here is reader's guide for "The Four Things That matter Most" by Dr Ira Byock
...a nice example of the doctrine and practice of forgiveness in a postmodern, interfaith, inter-religious, interdisciplinary context
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sirguessalot
to clarify my biblical perspective on it...
yep...the jewish kid was radical...and the bible is mostly a jewish book
and his way was not merely his way...though it was fully his way
but a perennial way that has existed from the beginning
with discernable voices in all corners of our world
where the bible is more informative when viewed as mostly being a jewish "book of the dead"
and allowed to be compared to the other "books of the dead"
it has always been appropriate to forgive the pre-modern ways in which we came to these conclusions
as well as forgive how many ways we have become oblivious to them in our post-modern funk
we are mostly unhinged...as it were...
from the actual pre-modern conditions and experiences that gave birth to our bibles and sacred art and literature and traditions
...
strangely...i find that blaming helps forgive
blame the person who wrong whomever
then blame what caused them to do it
then blame what caused that
then blame what caused that
yada yada
and then when i get to the bottom of things at the face of the deep
i find it easy to blame the face of the deep for allowing it all to happen in the first place
then what?
i am sure this radical wide open space we find our selves in will easily forgive such a thing of us
damn
we are so so back at genesis again
again
again
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cman
I'd say all godliness would somehow be related to,
if not directly linked to forgiveness.
And as sirg pointed out that death is the approaching inescapable reality,
that upon death, there will be forgiveness to face.
Raf, I didn't think you were speaking of forgiving in light of fellowshipping with people who were still sinning.
That's just common sense to stay away from people who are dangerous and not going to do there best for you or themselves.
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templelady
forgivness is always appropriate when we have been wronged by another.
BUt, as to what forgiveness entails, I have always found it fascinating that Christ on the cross " Father forgive them....." Not "I forgive them..." or even speaking directly to the crowd "I forgive you....."
From this and other verses, " as ye forgive so shall ye be forgiven" ( that may not be exactly correct since I am sans Bible at the computer), it was driven home to me that what is important is that the wrongdoer in your life not be held accountable before the Almighty for his sin.
That was a huge step for me when I could say of my ex husband. " God, I ask that you not hold against him any of the wrongs he has done me" then extend that to others that I regard as toxic and do not want anywhere in my life.
Then I found I could pray "Heavenly Father please, bless, protect and guide my enemies..........."
Too many churches have tried to twist forgiveness into this knot of "you must forgive and forget" "if you never want to have anything to do with that person you really haven't forgiven" etc etc.
The whole issue is how will God look at the wrongdoers and your respective sins. If those who have wronged you are sin free in that regard because God has already forgiven their sins at your behest while you were still on earth, then it stands to reason that GOd will forgive your sins because of the mercy you have extended to your fellow man. The Atonement of Christ is for those sins that GOd hasn't forgiven, and it is presumptuous of the aforementioned churches to assume that God cannot or will not forgive outside of the atonement when scripture clearly states the contrary.
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DrWearWord
We are to forgive all people of any wrongs they do.
Luke 6:37
Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:
Comment: That does not mean trust them again.
Matthewt 10:16
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.
Comment: Even if they do not confess this as a wrong we are to forgive them. For liberty is not only for the select few...
For their own sin is but an illusion, an eclipse of their holy spirit, that their mind is darkened they are still our family. It is God that cleanses us of unrighteousness not people.
There is justice and physical punishment of human law (man's day) for those who drastically overstep the law of liberty.
Fellowship is not with the flesh but it is with the spirit and the spirit is perfect and incorruptible. The problems is we try to live other's lives rather than simply being a lamp unto their feet.
When we do not forgive, then the offense inside the believer's mind becomes bitterness and soon the believer's heart lacks tenderness then the heart of the mind is obstructed by fear. And "fear is sand in the machinery of life".
Thus God is obstructed... for it is God's image which we shine not our own, not the wrongs of the flesh of others but the perfection of the spirit.
So look past the flesh and see the spirit and be humbled that we are not stricken with the same lack of belief.
Fellowship is only with God. Though we fellowship with others it is still God in them that we fellowship with. Not our own image. The flesh only breeds pride self pride in the household.
Thus we seek where we find the most light and where the image of God through Christ is the most resplendent and fine. Where truth is illuminated in the greatest clarity. We share this light to the world in hope that the light will fulfill it's promise.
We look to the heart of the created spirit person which makes intersession for the flesh of the downtrodden through Christ our lord.
Romans 5:17
For if by one man's offence death reigned [upon all] by one [Adam] ; much more they which receive abundance of grace [forgiveness to all] and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
1Peter 4:8
And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins.
Comment: The best we can do is not let their fault to slow us down to take our eyes off the mark of reaching the world with the truth of God's world.
Then this darkness becomes insignificant in the scope of all things considered.
Sin consciousness is exactly that it steals the consciousness of not only those who sin but those who refuse to forgive with grace and liberty.
Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.
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Larry N Moore
Raf, those are two excellent questions. I've always thought that forgiving others has more to do with your own state of mind and subsequently health, while at the same time beneficial to the minds of others. Maybe the saying "Love your neighbor as you love yourself" comes into play here and in thinking about that principle I can see that anytime you withhold forgiveness it will only further harden your heart and the root of bitterness, like a cancer, will rob you of the love for life.
On the other matter -- well -- I suppose that depends on much you talk about them and with what attitude you approach the subject. All things done in moderation probably won't hurt you too much (if at all) but when the subject seems to consume most of your thoughts and conversations with others maybe it's time to step back and then move forward. I don't know -- maybe that's why God (through Paul) admonishes us in Philippians 3: 13 and 14 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus." It's very easy to miss that mark when your focus is on what people do instead of what Jesus Christ did for people.
Hmm . . . I'm glad you asked these questions.
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DrWearWord
As for the unforgivable sin...
It is God who knows the spirit of those who have committed this atrocity.
It is God who judges the spirit.
I had a believer once remark to me... "They're not born again..."
I replied how do you know?
It is again "pride that goes before a fall".
That we forgive all unless God tells us by revelation otherwise and "you better be sure..."
Mark and avoid is truly something a believer does needs to face.
For if a person in their mind has it out for you you need to cease any and all involvement with this person...
This seems inconceivable that the love of God cannot reach this person.
Sometimes a person's mind is so blinded that they become dangerous to themselves and others. They become so distraught by sin consciousness that they are like a person drowning. They are going to to pull down anyone with them who tries to help them. You can teach them the way but then you have to back off and let the word do the work. Again it seems inconceivable that a person in light of the word can still be dangerous to a believer but they can. Even though God has their spirit the devil still has their mind. So the only safe course is to "mark and avoid". I don't even like that term but it is Biblical. This seems to go against the law of liberty and love.. It does not mean you stop loving them for God loves us even though we on the outside are not perfect. But God will tell you that this person will not change... I apply the three strikes rule.
The devil will flee if we resist him three times and the believer should flee if they do not resist the devil three times... (it is simple logic as a natural protective mechanism)
(Figuratively it is like handling snakes.)
Three strikes and it is time to give the friendship a rest and four strikes and it may be time to completely avoid. For they can be a danger to you and themselves at this point. You may still have to live in the same town you can be friendly but you do not have to be in their lives and vise versa. They will know why... Because their word is not trustworthy... They have vowed to not become aggressive and vicious but they time and again peruse this course... Nothing but backing off is the reasonable duty to the self.
Again we forgive them. In my whole lifetime God has never told me "someone was seed"...
To assume this is to make a judgment that is God's alone to make... Usually they are born of God's seed and the mind is blinded... That God will still save them in the end.. This is the illusion of the flesh. When we look to the flesh we see sin but when we look to the spirit we see the love of God. Always look to the spirit and give people the benefit of the doubt... But be aware of the flesh and be cunning, wise and tough "love" is not out of the question. Tough love is to say your peace back completely off and give it a rest.
We are not supposed to force ideas on people. Show by example and let the spirit do the work, time with the word can heal the mind and body. They have to put on the mind of Christ in their own time just as we all sit, stood and walked in our own time. Keep focused on the inner person. Yet back off if they are unforgiving of themselves for sinconsciousness is not something to toy with. You will know by revelation when their transgressions have overstepped the reasonable boundaries of decorum.
God will tell you when they have committed the same offense against you enough that it is time to mark and avoid. It seems inconceivable that one would do this but sometimes there is really no other option then to be drawn into their own nightmare and violence time and again. When life becomes unreal then you are living in someones ill conceived dream and it is time to wake up and remove yourself from their influence... It will take time on their own with their own fellowship with God for them to come to the light if ever. All we can do is point the way.
Sometimes years, sometimes never... "Sometimes they have to reach the bottom of the barrel and the only way farther down once they reach the bottom of the barrel is death..." Even this is regrettable and unacceptable but still, "forgivable"... You can mark and avoid but STILL forgive... Do not carry hate and animosity ever... this is traveling light, this is giving your cares to God. This is living in faith and not fear. Fear and hate is never the right way it will never produce the desired results. Only backing off and forgiving and time alone with God will help them at this point.
We are not to speak the word with force but with love... boldness is not force for even boldness must be tempered with love. Speak the truth and let the word itself do the changing of people.
When is it time to let them back into your life? Sometimes never, you may have to face this consequence. Sometimes they remain a menace until they are taken down to the grave by their own spiritual plagues. It is an unfortunate fact of life that every believer needs to be aware of and act accordingly. It is not that God cannot or has not saved them but the word needs time to do it's work on the habit patterns of their mind and flesh...
Peace with God...
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likeaneagle
THanks for you imput DWW- Its a continual work in progress..I dont anyone can be perfect all the time..especially if you have been 'Spiritualy Abused' or have suffered 'Church Abuse'. I do understand not allowing the heart get to get hardened..To me somehow that relates to me, broken fellowship..that can translate into broken fellowship with God and the brethren..the word say's to restore you brother who has been at faullt..I think that is saying directly, to forgive and build..
somehow we can be very challenged in this area.
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Jeaniam
I guess I would differentiate between those people who come to me and apologize and those who continue to believe that they are justified in their error. Forgiveness is appropriate for both groups (and I think is mandated for both groups) at least partly because of what lack of forgiveness would do to the person who persists in holding a grudge; trust is not mandated, and in some cases is not appropriate because to trust leaves yourself open to more damage, as has already been pointed out. I wonder if in the example of the man to whom Jesus said 'Son, thy sins are forgiven thee', the reason he said that is because he recognized that condemnation was holding the man back from receiving the healing that he needed. That's just a thought, and I can't back it up with anything.
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