Off Shoots collection

[thankgodifinallywokeup]

This has probably been covered before but where does the money go that is collected by the Off Shoot groups? I have been briefly involved with several of them and could not figure out what they did with the money. Most of them still had home fellowships.

Does it go to foreign missions or to help inner city kids learn the gospel or to help poor people come to Christ or to help genocide survivors in other countries with basic fundamental necessities? The ones I attended did not broach the subject but it was prayed over before the plate was passed and something was said about blessing back the givers.

The revs who led the groups were dressed nicely and one even talked about his stock portfolio when the rest of his group seemed struggling to make ends meet.

I wonder sometimes how long people would feel comfortable contributing to home fellowship churches if they are looked at funny when they ask where the offering goes (or abs or whatever they call it now). I was within hearing distance once when someone asked and he was given a curt answer.

I remember now, it was a horn of plenty that was passed not a plate.

My memory must be healing to have forgotten that. :D

[WordWolf]

This has probably been covered before but where does the money go that is collected by the Off Shoot groups? I have been briefly involved with several of them and could not figure out what they did with the money. Most of them still had home fellowships.

Does it go to foreign missions or to help inner city kids learn the gospel or to help poor people come to Christ or to help genocide survivors in other countries with basic fundamental necessities? The ones I attended did not broach the subject but it was prayed over before the plate was passed and something was said about blessing back the givers.

The revs who led the groups were dressed nicely and one even talked about his stock portfolio when the rest of his group seemed struggling to make ends meet.

I wonder sometimes how long people would feel comfortable contributing to home fellowship churches if they are looked at funny when they ask where the offering goes (or abs or whatever they call it now). I was within hearing distance once when someone asked and he was given a curt answer.

I remember now, it was a horn of plenty that was passed not a plate.

My memory must be healing to have forgotten that. :D

Hello, TGIFWU. (I'm not typing that whole name.)

I trust you've looked at this forum's pinned topic, "Welcome to the Greasespot Cafe".

If not, I'm recommending you do, first chance you get.

There's a variety of offshoot groups. Some of the posters are connected with one or another,

but most of us are not.

Different offshoots have different answers. There's more scrutiny on the offshoots

(aka "splinters") than the original, but in some cases, that may not mean much.

If you ask about SPECIFIC offshoots, you could probably get more specific answers.

There's a sub-forum about CES, and that's worth a look for you.

However, I'd use the following rule of thumb:

Unless an offshoot group is announcing its projects- what it's doing, where it's focusing

work- and updating the announcements regularly-

then it should be presumed that all its money intake is going into either

overhead (which may be of benefit to someone)

or salary/perks (which ARE of benefit to someone.)

In case someone missed HOW overhead can be of personal benefit, I shall give

examples.

Let's say Group A decides it needs a headquarters, a home office.

It starts small- it buys a house, a 3-story house.

The bottom 2 stories become a local place to run classes, a place for informal

get-togethers (living-room area), and 2 offices are set up. At least one full

kitchen remains in place, which can be used for both.

That means the third floor can be used as an "apartment" by one or more

leaders, a leader and their family, and so on. When meetings are not in use,

they can use the comfortable living-room area as a den, and who do you think

will be using at least one office? All the comforts which sensibly benefit during

meetings, and the supplies for the office, are all at the leader's disposal.

(And if the paperwork is done right, he doesn't even have to pay any rent.)

Let's say Group A decides its leaders need a few cars to get around.

You get the idea.

It's the same system vpw used- where he paid no taxes on the farm,

his entire living area and work-area were completely paid for by twi's budget,

and he never needed to spend on transportation or GROCERIES,

nor-I expect- did he have to spend on his WARDROBE, nor even his

alcohol and tobacco vices, and so on.

And then he got a SALARY.

Not that he NEEDED one, really.

And on top of that were the gifts whenever he traveled.

We all should live so well!

There's no guarantee any splinter isn't doing the same thing on a smaller scale,

and TRANSPARENCY and OPEN COMMUNICATION-

like real churches have-

are the best safeguards that show it's NOT being done.

Hope you enjoy your stay here.

[Captain Spiritural]

[.

The revs who led the groups were dressed nicely and one even talked about his stock portfolio when the rest of his group seemed struggling to make ends meet.

My memory must be healing to have forgotten that. :D

what is this ? ...stock portfolio

Edited May 12, 2007 by Captain Spiritural

[mstar1]

I was within hearing distance once when someone asked and he was given a curt answer.

I honestly have no idea where the money goes, but if I heard that I'd certainly be long gone from there

( well I'd probably never really be there to begin with anyway)

My job has me working in a lot of churches, a good 90% have the financial report laying out in the front lobby for anyone to take.

If they cant be truthful with you in simple things, how the hell can they represent "the truth"? :blink:

[Jeaniam]

This has probably been covered before but where does the money go that is collected by the Off Shoot groups? I have been briefly involved with several of them and could not figure out what they did with the money. Most of them still had home fellowships.

Does it go to foreign missions or to help inner city kids learn the gospel or to help poor people come to Christ or to help genocide survivors in other countries with basic fundamental necessities? The ones I attended did not broach the subject but it was prayed over before the plate was passed and something was said about blessing back the givers.

The revs who led the groups were dressed nicely and one even talked about his stock portfolio when the rest of his group seemed struggling to make ends meet.

I wonder sometimes how long people would feel comfortable contributing to home fellowship churches if they are looked at funny when they ask where the offering goes (or abs or whatever they call it now). I was within hearing distance once when someone asked and he was given a curt answer.

I remember now, it was a horn of plenty that was passed not a plate.

My memory must be healing to have forgotten that. :D

I'm involved with an Off-Shoot or splinter group that is headed by Rev. Chris Geer. The ABS that is generated in my area STAYS in my area and is administered by a gentleman who has a full-time (or more) job and uses none of it for his own benefit. It has been used, since my involvement, for such projects as helping a woman who was widowed unexpectedly, helping a family who were hit with unexpected medical bills, and otherwise helping people who were feeling unexpected financial pressures. All of these uses I believe to be Biblical in nature and I have no problem with my money being used in this way. While I haven't demanded an accounting down to the penny, I'm sure if I did, one would be available to me, and I would be satisfied by it. In fact one of the things that attracted me to this group is the fact that I like the way they handle their finances.

[Keith]

I can't speak for most groups. Only my own, though I don't like to think of us as an "off shoot." We have used the offerings for the following, not in any particular order, just as I thought of them.

We have given to other ministries very view of them are off shoots.

We provide assistance to one person who is no longer able to work and cannot live on her disability check.

We have paid rent and morgage payments for some, who have fallen on hard times and needed help to get back on their feet.

We have provided money to several of the various homeless shelters and community kitchens in the area, as well as to the Red Cross and other orginazations of this kind.

For those who desire it, we have provided free cassettes of our teachings. Currently, after the death of our duplicator we are looking in to CDs. We will provide those for free as well. We have sent these teachings all over the country and to several to several forgein countries as well.

We provide a "book store" of materials that we have found helpful in our walks and we hope will help others as well. These are free for the taking.

Currently we are still meeting in the home, so we have no overhead beyond copying and postage costs. We are currently looking in to renting a small building and changing from a home fellowship to a more traditional type of church. If we do this, some of the money received will go to this.

[thankgodifinallywokeup]

I honestly have no idea where the money goes, but if I heard that I'd certainly be long gone from there

My job has me working in a lot of churches, a good 90% have the financial report laying out in the front lobby for anyone to take.

If they cant be truthful with you in simple things, how the hell can they represent "the truth"? :blink:

Mstar, I agree. I was gone also. This was a Geer group. Jeaniam, it sounds like your group is a little different. But don't they have to give CG 15% of the abundant sharing?

The rev here didn't just "administer" the money. It was understood this was his ministry and he decided where it went. He was set up like TWI with two other people on the board. I was told by a primary source that one boardmember always went along with the rev so the other boardmember's vote did not make a difference.

It sure looked like he used the offering for his family and himself. Everyone was afraid to say anything about it or even inquire. I wondered why people would tithe to him. He had a Sunday morning fellowship (teaching same old same old) and a leader's fellowship once a week and he was done. On Sunday's you didn't dare hang around long enough to talk to him because it was understood no one should interfere with his Sunday noon meal. They ran the Geer classes in other people's homes so he wasn't inconvenienced by that (what a complete and utter bore and waste of time that class was in my opinion).

To me the salary seemed out of proportion for a part time job. He would make sarcastic remarks about giving to charities the way we did in The Way so he wasn't giving to charities. Occasionally he would invite other ex way heavy reavys to come here to teach. A building was rented and the followers had to pay a registration fee to attend.

In my opinion, if the followers were cut off for even 6 months, they would break their codependency and see they could lead lives of their own. Then they would wonder what they had been doing all of those years just following along and turning over their free will by asking someone else for advice about all of their decisions. They might even find a godly use for their money either for their own retirement or for a good cause. I don't think God wants the ex way revs set for life and the rest of us poor and penniless when retirement rolls around. Again that's my opinion.

After that I attended several other ex way minister's groups but was not ever involved for long enough in any of them to notice what they did with the money. So that's why I was curious. I've always wondered if the Geer heavy revy was the norm or the exception.

Thanks WordWold and Keith also. Interesting perspectives.

[George Aar]

"Where does the money go?"

Well, I don't know fer sure, but I can guess.

Fancy cars, fast women, houses, up their nose, and that perennial favorite of Way-flavored "clergy"

TOYS! (Motorcycles, motor coaches, guns, jewelry, watches, phones, AV equipment)

Oh, and don't forget all those important trustee meetings in Cancun or the Bahamas...

[nyunknown]

I like to know where all the money from the TWI. Is there anything left? I did a google search looks like there was another lawsuit filed last year in june the TWI vs Rose. Does anyone know what has happen since?

[waysider]

I'm sure there must be plenty left. They have been selling off assets left and right for several years now and I have never gotten a rebate on my Abundant Sharing(tithes).

As to the lawsuit, what other information did you discover?

[Bolshevik]

I like to know where all the money from the TWI. Is there anything left? I did a google search looks like there was another lawsuit filed last year in june the TWI vs Rose. Does anyone know what has happen since?

whoa whoa, did you say there was a lawsuit against twi filed June 2006??? Where did you find this info? Anyone else know this?

[Jeaniam]

Mstar, I agree. I was gone also. This was a Geer group. Jeaniam, it sounds like your group is a little different. But don't they have to give CG 15% of the abundant sharing?

The rev here didn't just "administer" the money. It was understood this was his ministry and he decided where it went. He was set up like TWI with two other people on the board. I was told by a primary source that one boardmember always went along with the rev so the other boardmember's vote did not make a difference.

It sure looked like he used the offering for his family and himself. Everyone was afraid to say anything about it or even inquire. I wondered why people would tithe to him. He had a Sunday morning fellowship (teaching same old same old) and a leader's fellowship once a week and he was done. On Sunday's you didn't dare hang around long enough to talk to him because it was understood no one should interfere with his Sunday noon meal. They ran the Geer classes in other people's homes so he wasn't inconvenienced by that (what a complete and utter bore and waste of time that class was in my opinion).

To me the salary seemed out of proportion for a part time job. He would make sarcastic remarks about giving to charities the way we did in The Way so he wasn't giving to charities. Occasionally he would invite other ex way heavy reavys to come here to teach. A building was rented and the followers had to pay a registration fee to attend.

In my opinion, if the followers were cut off for even 6 months, they would break their codependency and see they could lead lives of their own. Then they would wonder what they had been doing all of those years just following along and turning over their free will by asking someone else for advice about all of their decisions. They might even find a godly use for their money either for their own retirement or for a good cause. I don't think God wants the ex way revs set for life and the rest of us poor and penniless when retirement rolls around. Again that's my opinion.

After that I attended several other ex way minister's groups but was not ever involved for long enough in any of them to notice what they did with the money. So that's why I was curious. I've always wondered if the Geer heavy revy was the norm or the exception.

Thanks WordWold and Keith also. Interesting perspectives.

I'm not sure about the 15%. I think they send CG a set sum of money once a year for a 'license' but I don't think it's excessive. The gentleman who administers the ABS in our area as far as I know doesn't have a stock portfolio, and I believe he and his wife work very hard to support themselves and their five children.

I've been to fellowships like the one you describe in that the leader in question didn't really want people to stay around after fellowship for any length of time (in one the leader imposed a 15 minute time limit) I like the fellowship I am currently attending because the leaders seem to really enjoy the company of other believers, and encouage them to remain for an indefinite amount of time.

Can you define the statement about the Geer heavy revy being the norm or the exception? I'm not sure I understand fully.

Edited May 13, 2007 by Jeaniam

[WordWolf]

I'm not sure about the 15%. I think they send CG a set sum of money once a year for a 'license' but I don't think it's excessive.

CG groups have the option of either sending CG 15% of their intake,

or paying once a year for a "license."

IIRC, that amount was reported at the GSC as $2000 per year,

but there's no guarantee it STAYED at that price.

It may have gone up or down.

Either way, CG has to have a "cut".

Even a local one-household group would need to send 15% of their tithe to be "official".

The gentleman who administers the ABS in our area as far as I know doesn't have a stock portfolio, and I believe he and his wife work very hard to support themselves and their five children.

Sounds good.

Any idea what the $2000 a year is going to?

(*Does the math.* Hm.

20 groups paying $2000 a year would mean CG clears $40,000 in licensing fees alone.

Plus whatever comes in as 15%.

Plus any materials he sells.

And I'd be very surprised if that all wasn't listed as "religious", and exempt from TAXES.

Sweet money if you can manage it.

Of course, his Social Security will be nonexistent if he's not declaring a salary,

but if he's investing in his own retirement, that's a secondary consideration at best.

Besides, if he can keep licenses coming in indefinitely, that's a perpetual

income source.

So, any idea what the $2000 a year goes to?

I've been to fellowships like the one you describe in that the leader in question didn't really want people to stay around after fellowship for any length of time (in one the leader imposed a 15 minute time limit) I like the fellowship I am currently attending because the leaders seem to really enjoy the company of other believers, and encouage them to remain for an indefinite amount of time.

Can you define the statement about the Geer heavy revy being the norm or the exception? I'm not sure I understand fully.

[waterbuffalo]

Jeaniam, do you think it a bit odd for a minister to set a 15 minute time limit for believers to hang around and visit with each other after a meeting? I do. What a control freak. He clearly doesn't enjoy what he's doing, imo, if he's running people off like that.

Edited May 13, 2007 by waterbuffalo

[Jeaniam]

Jeaniam, do you think it a bit odd for a minister to set a 15 minute time limit for believers to hang around and visit with each other after a meeting? I do. What a control freak. He clearly doesn't enjoy what he's doing, imo, if he's running people off like that.

Yes, I do, but that isn't the case in the fellowship I now attend. The leaders in the fellowship I am currently a part of enjoy the company of the believers, and encourage them to stay around and visit for as long as they want (with certain rare exceptions). They are a very loving group of people. The leader I was describing in my other post wasn't even affiliated with CG.

[Jeaniam]

So, any idea what the $2000 a year goes to?

I have no idea. I think if I cared enough to find out, an accounting would be given me, but right at this point I haven't cared enough to find out and I'm not sure I care enough now. My attitude in giving is to allow God to bless my life and the lives of my family. If CG or any other minister is mis-using the ABS that is their problem and they will no doubt have to answer to God for it. Besides, I don't even know if the figure you mentioned ($2000) is even accurate.

[dmiller]

Maybe this is

but why would you have to have a license to teach the word according to Geer?

[ChasUFarley]

whoa whoa, did you say there was a lawsuit against twi filed June 2006??? Where did you find this info? Anyone else know this?

It's a copyright lawsuit:

The Way International v. Rose

mddce

8:2006cv01194

5/12/2006

The Way International v. Rose

Case Number: 8:2006cv01194

Filed: May 12, 2006

Court: Maryland District Court

Office: Greenbelt Office [ Court Info ]

Presiding Judge: Judge Deborah K. Chasanow

Referring Judge: Magistrate Judge Jillyn K. Schulze

Nature of Suit: Intellectual Property - Copyrights

Cause: 17:101 Copyright Infringement

Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff

This was all I could find...

[Jeaniam]

It's a copyright lawsuit:

The Way International v. Rose

mddce

8:2006cv01194

5/12/2006

The Way International v. Rose

Case Number: 8:2006cv01194

Filed: May 12, 2006

Court: Maryland District Court

Office: Greenbelt Office [ Court Info ]

Presiding Judge: Judge Deborah K. Chasanow

Referring Judge: Magistrate Judge Jillyn K. Schulze

Nature of Suit: Intellectual Property - Copyrights

Cause: 17:101 Copyright Infringement

Jury Demanded By: Plaintiff

This was all I could find...

It sounds like it might be a lawsuit filed by TWI against someone.

[dmiller]

I tried one of the links on that site -- and this is what I got:

Notice:

This is a Restricted Web Site for Official Court Business only.

Unauthorized entry is prohibited and subject to prosecution under Title 18 of the U.S. Code.

All activities and access attempts are logged.

Needless to say -- I found out a whole lot of nothing!!

[ChasUFarley]

I wonder who "Rose" is....

(And I doubt it's Axl Rose.... )

[Jeaniam]

Maybe this is

but why would you have to have a license to teach the word according to Geer?

I think the license allows you to offer the classes he teaches, and I guess I think 15% of 10% doesn't really work out to very much money.

[WhiteDove]

It sounds like it might be a lawsuit filed by TWI against someone.

This might be for the MP3 disk sets of all of the SNS and tape of the months taught by VPW. although not copyrighted they may be trying to force the issue and wear down the opposition with their money and attorneys.

[skyrider]

I'm involved with an Off-Shoot or splinter group that is headed by Rev. Chris Geer.

That's the problem with those offshoot groups....

I'd rather find a good church or Bible study group where Christ is the head.

[WhiteDove]

That's the problem with those offshoot groups....

I'd rather find a good church or Bible study group where Christ is the head

Except that even if Christ was the head someone has to conduct the day to day work here in this world. We refer to those people figuratively in business as the head. To assume that just because for conversation purposes that someone is refered to as head means that Christ is not, is not necessarily true. But then I suppose that you knew that already and just wanted to take the cheap shot anyway.