Bonds will break the record. It will be acknowledged but not celebrated by Baseball.
Bonds reputation is damaged beyond repair. As is Mark Maguires (Mc Guires?)
Joe Morgan asked Willie Mays about the steroid thing. Mays said Bonds breaking the record will close out the 'steroid era' and baseball will move on. Morgan said that if that sentiment is ok with Willie it's ok for him, and I agree.
What else is Willie going to say? ...and I would agree to "move on" if it really was going to close the steroid era out... but we all know that it won't...
....there’s no gray area. He admitted to cheating on his wife, cheating on his taxes, and cheating on the game, so I think the reaction around the league, the game, being what it is, in the case of what people think. Hank Aaron not being there. The commissioner [bud Selig]trying to figure out where to be. It’s sad.
“And I don’t care that he’s black, or green, or purple, or yellow, or whatever. It’s unfortunate… there’s good people and bad people. It’s unfortunate that it’s happening the way it’s happening
THIS from Sports Illustrated review of "Game Of Shadows" last year.
NEW YORK (SI.com) -- Beginning in 1998 with injections in his buttocks of Winstrol, a powerful steroid, Barry Bonds took a wide array of performance-enhancing drugs over at least five seasons in a massive doping regimen that grew more sophisticated as the years went on, according to Game of Shadows, a book written by two San Francisco Chronicle reporters at the forefront of reporting on the BALCO steroid distribution scandal....
...The authors, Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, describe in sometimes day-to-day, drug-by-drug detail how often and how deeply Bonds engaged in the persistent doping. For instance, the authors write that by 2001, when Bonds broke Mark McGwire's single-season home-run record (70) by belting 73, Bonds was using two designer steroids referred to as the Cream and the Clear, as well as insulin, human growth hormone, testosterone decanoate (a fast-acting steroid known as Mexican beans) and trenbolone, a steroid created to improve the muscle quality of cattle...
...Depending on the substance, Bonds used the drugs in virtually every conceivable form: injecting himself with a syringe or being injected by his trainer, Greg Anderson, swallowing pills, placing drops of liquid under his tongue, and, in the case of BALCO's notorious testosterone-based cream, applying it topically.
According to the book, Bonds gulped as many as 20 pills at a time and was so deeply reliant on his regimen that he ordered Anderson to start "cycles" -- a prescribed period of steroid use lasting about three weeks -- even when he was not due to begin one. Steroid users typically stop usage for a week or two periodically to allow the body to continue to produce natural testosterone; otherwise, such production diminishes or ceases with the continued introduction of synthetic forms of the muscle-building hormone.
Bonds called for the re-starting of cycles when he felt his energy and power start to drop. If Anderson told Bonds he was not due for another cycle, the authors write, Bonds would tell him, "F--- off, I'll do it myself.''
Yes he'll break the record but it makes me ill to see the Barry watch every night on Sportscenter (does anyone outside of Northern California know how the GIANTS are doing??...it is a team game after all...). Whatever Pete Rose did was small potatoes compared to Bonds in my book
He'll get the record ---Give him a giant one of these next to every record
Barry Bonds*
* known to have used performance enhancing substances banned by Major League Baseball
Then let him retire
regardless of any of his accomplishments I wouldnt vote for him for the Hall Of Fame
ESPN is all about Barry, The Yankees and the Red Sox.-oh and now Clemens-but that's because he's a Yankee again.
I didn't think anyone outside of NY and New England cared about the Giants as a team -and of course they don't.
I wouldn't vote Barry for the Hall either. What Mays MEANT was that after Aaron's record, there are no other records left for the steroid era to demolish. While I do think steroids will always be arund, I don't think baseball will be ignoring them as in the 90's.
oops I meant noone IN NY and New England cared about other teams.
I do like my team and the rivalry with New York, Ive always liked it since I was very young, Its good baseball and good fun..I see one or the other just about everyday...
It doesnt mean I dont care about other teams, I do, Im just not exposed to them like I once was and Im not close enough to draw any real attachment unless something out of the ordinary is happening....
When I was young the big rivalry was Giants/Dodgers..Mays. Mccovey/Marichal vs. Drysdale, Koufax et al...Those were always the big games I looked forward to, then it was possible to know the teams the players and at least alittle of the importance of each game--even from afar---
....The way players shift every year, the number of teams and 6 division races --even with Sportscenter and Baseball Tonight (I rtarely if ever watch them...)unless you stay at it almost fulltime and curtail your other activities its tough to keep up with it all and for an oldtimer like me--keep it all square. I just happen to be HERE, so by osmosis I happen to pick up more of whats happening in my own back yard
I understand how people in other parts of the country must be sick of the ESPN hype on the Sox/Yankees, Heck, Im sick of it, and I think its ridiculous to forcefeed it to people who may or may not care and jam it down their throats ad infinitum...., People who are here(New England/NY) know what it means to them and their day and dont really need or want someone jumping on their coattails, to steal it, wrestle it away, hype it and make it into something its not. It is what it is, its exciting, its good baseball, we dont need someone to tell us that
I would just as soon see more, Dodger, Ranger, Cub or DBack games so that I do get to know a little whats happening outside my own arena.....Thats why I enjoy coming here--I honestly get more interacting with real fans, than I can ever get from talking head highlight shows.
I like (or dislike)my team because it is what I see everyday and I see their patterns for good or bad close up. Its fascinating as an observer, as it is with just about any team, anywhere...I am sure there are great fans of the Seibu Lions, The Toledo Mudhens and the Glasgow Midlanders as well
Its not my fault (or NE/NY's fault)that ESPN ( dont watch them much anyway)and the national networks has dropped the ball on much of the rest of the country and played ratings over good reporting, complain about them if you want and rightfully people should, but targeting NE/NY fans because they have been targetted by the hype machine isnt really fair. most of them are honest fans who just love the game and happen to be here stuck between one of these two teams....
I wasn't trying to 'start something', just making a perhaps unfair observance based on what's posted in here.
Hey, noone knows more than me what being a Yankee fan is all about, having lived the first half of my life in Connecticut and living and dying by them. I was as myopic a fan as you ever saw until I moved west and 'spread my wings'.
I do think it's easy to follow other teams if one wants to-there's no lack of information out there.
Anyway- I have no issues with the Nation here. I apologize if it came across like that.
Perhaps we need to find a way to find out just by what percentage steroids enhances performance and then reduce the number of homeruns and anything else in Bonds and MacGuire's records by that percentage and put THAT in the record books.
Won't happen.
Hank Aaron should, when asked how he feels when Bonds breaks the record, say, "Whatever..."
It would be nice to have fans sit down and not say or do anything when Bonds breaks Aaron's record. Aaron's record was real and natural. The REAL record.
Bonds will break the record. It will be acknowledged but not celebrated by Baseball.
Bonds reputation is damaged beyond repair. As is Mark Maguires (Mc Guires?)
Joe Morgan asked Willie Mays about the steroid thing. Mays said Bonds breaking the record will close out the 'steroid era' and baseball will move on. Morgan said that if that sentiment is ok with Willie it's ok for him, and I agree.
It's spelled "McGwire" and McGwire did himself in by the wussy way he testified before Congress...
I agree... Bonds WILL break the record... sooner, rather than later.
I agree baseball will "move on"... I think Bonds should have an ASTERISK tattoo'd beside his name in the record books (he won't just lead MLB in HRs, don't for get BBs).
I think Bonds knowingly did steroids. But I also must acknowledge that he is dangerous NOT simply for how far the ball flies... but also because he doesn't strike out profusely, like most homerun hitters... steroids probably do not deserve the credit for his hand/eye coordination and lightning reflexes and bat speed. IMO.
THIS yesterday from Curt Schilling of the Red Sox...
Mstar... Schilling had a bad case of diarrhea of the mouth... he's been known to have that on a recurring basis. He should stick to worrying about his game (ie his pitching, his record, his team).
However, your asterisk is probably as good as any that might be proposed... and I DO believe an asterisk is in order here.
Compare the number of former MLB pitchers that have died as a result of BRAIN CANCER to the incidence of brain cancer in the general population. Then tell me what other possible factors could have been responsible for the incredible number of these pitchers having suffered such a horrific fate.
THEN tell me whether it's just a "possible" fact.
Do we need to begin naming those pitchers?
What position did the guy from the Diamondbacks, that got indicted by the feds for receiving steriods in the mail a year or two ago, play? (Hint -- he watched games from the Dbacks' bullpen)
It's all so sad but it's a fact of life in the big leagues... and the saddest thing (to me) about BB is that he was such a talented and gifted player to begin with. Who knows what Junior could've done if he'd had all that chemical help...
Schilling has since 'apologized' for those statements. According to the radio guy I heard it from, Schilling and Bonds have a history of 'hating' each other.
That Bonds would have been one of the greatest players without steroids makes it that much sadder.I was going to say the steroids weren't to blame for his surliness or ego, but who knows if they haven't played a part. Extreme mood changes are a side effect with steroid use.
Thankfully, Junior never went that route (I don't THINK). With his history of injuries and illness, steroid use could have seriously backfired on him.
Baseball is not about numbers; it's about achievement. Hank Aaron eclipsed Babe Ruth's home run total, but he did not eclipse his achievement. Bonds will probably break the record, but again he will not negate Hank Aaron's achievement.
I do think it's easy to follow other teams if one wants to-there's no lack of information out there.
thats why I come here, or the other thread really, There is only so much you can get from a 30 second highlight show, or a morning news article-that really doesnt tell much of the story-They really dont interest me all that much and I dont watch them much because they water the game down and rarely give you any real interesting info.that makes the game (imo)... like watching pitchers work through a batting order or a hitter work a good at bat and make adjustments through the game or the million and one variables that make for a well played game....
I already have my hands full with life and watching one team thats right in front of me--I suppose when Im older I may get the MLBTV package and watch all the games but Im a little too busy just yet to do that---So's I come here and a few other boards to get filled in with things of interest as I do enjoy talking baseball and getting filled in with just about anyone, anywhere.
The game still fascinates me after all these years.
As far as Red Sox Nation goes its just a name some writer conjured that has been around since at least the early 70's, to name the fans, similar to the Bleacher Bums in Chicago, or the DogPound in Cleveland. As usual the national media picked it upi 20 years too late and beat it to death over the last 4 or 5 years because they havent gotten imaginations or insights of their own. Hell I wish they'd get off it...but it doesnt negate the fact that if the RS play anywhere in the country there will be agood size contingent of RS fans there...
anyway WTF are we talking about?
Barry Bonds?
I'd be more interested in hearing stories about Omar Vizquel or Ryan Klesko really, or whats right and wrong with the TEAM or how they are dealing with this bondscircus.
If he got to 750 or 754 and the Giants were offered a trade that would vastly improve there team and their chances of winning the NL West would they do it?
I'm away from the fires , but not from the smoke. Griffith Park is just down the road from work, and the air has been smoky for days now. It even gets into my underground parking lot.
I'm not sure how Bond's teammates will respond when he breaks the record.I remember when he hit 600, they went out of their way NOT to congratulate him. At the time it had nothing to do with steroids-they just didn't like him.
The fans in San Francisco seem to embrace him, so I have to think Barry will do all he can to hit it at home. Unless he doesn't care about fan response.
There are always Yankee fans, or Bosox fans when they play the Angels. In Dodger Stadium, it's Giants, Cubs, but surprisingly not many Mets fans. What impresses me are Pirates, or KC Royals fans.
.... What impresses me are Pirates, or KC Royals fans.
True enough, Those are fans-----my father originally being from Pittsburg, still talks about Forbes Field once in awhile, and the Waner Brothers---I'll admire anyone who likes the game enough to be there during the lean years....
I said before on these threads that I *almost* wish that the Sox would sukk for a few years so things can get back to normal, the fair weather fans would leave, the hype would die down and you could go to the park on a whim....( well I almost wish...)
I was there with the Sox in the 60's when attendance could be 2 or 3 thousand a game and they had to give things away to get people to come.... which is a far cry from today where the could hold a 2am game in a blizzard, charge $300/ticket and still be sold out..
Good luck with the smoke-
of course you could always come back someplace safe......like the Bronx
I think homeruns are overrated anyhow. I wish they'd make the fields bigger or the air thicker or something. I find it more exciting to see stolen bases, savy baserunning, hit and runs, sacrifices and all that. Not that I don't like homeruns and seeing balls hit into the stratosphere, just wish they were a little less common.
I like a clutch homerun as much as anyone BUT There is a LOT more to the game that is more important and I really could care less to see a 'highlight' if someone hits one when the score is 9-1 (or something) which only pads stats and momentarily oohs and ahhs the crowd.
Give me a well executed hit and run, or a good throw from right to third to cut down a crucial runner anyday
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Tom Strange
Opinion: At this point Jose Canseco seems more credible than MLB.
Fact: Most of those suspended for steroid use (since the new rules took effect) are pitchers.
Fact: Barry Bonds is a jerk.
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hiway29
Bonds will break the record. It will be acknowledged but not celebrated by Baseball.
Bonds reputation is damaged beyond repair. As is Mark Maguires (Mc Guires?)
Joe Morgan asked Willie Mays about the steroid thing. Mays said Bonds breaking the record will close out the 'steroid era' and baseball will move on. Morgan said that if that sentiment is ok with Willie it's ok for him, and I agree.
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Tom Strange
What else is Willie going to say? ...and I would agree to "move on" if it really was going to close the steroid era out... but we all know that it won't...
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mstar1
THIS yesterday from Curt Schilling of the Red Sox
THIS from Sports Illustrated review of "Game Of Shadows" last year.
Yes he'll break the record but it makes me ill to see the Barry watch every night on Sportscenter (does anyone outside of Northern California know how the GIANTS are doing??...it is a team game after all...). Whatever Pete Rose did was small potatoes compared to Bonds in my book
He'll get the record ---Give him a giant one of these next to every record
Barry Bonds*
* known to have used performance enhancing substances banned by Major League Baseball
Then let him retire
regardless of any of his accomplishments I wouldnt vote for him for the Hall Of Fame
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hiway29
ESPN is all about Barry, The Yankees and the Red Sox.-oh and now Clemens-but that's because he's a Yankee again.
I didn't think anyone outside of NY and New England cared about the Giants as a team -and of course they don't.
I wouldn't vote Barry for the Hall either. What Mays MEANT was that after Aaron's record, there are no other records left for the steroid era to demolish. While I do think steroids will always be arund, I don't think baseball will be ignoring them as in the 90's.
oops I meant noone IN NY and New England cared about other teams.
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mstar1
Hey cmon Hiway timeout
I do like my team and the rivalry with New York, Ive always liked it since I was very young, Its good baseball and good fun..I see one or the other just about everyday...
It doesnt mean I dont care about other teams, I do, Im just not exposed to them like I once was and Im not close enough to draw any real attachment unless something out of the ordinary is happening....
When I was young the big rivalry was Giants/Dodgers..Mays. Mccovey/Marichal vs. Drysdale, Koufax et al...Those were always the big games I looked forward to, then it was possible to know the teams the players and at least alittle of the importance of each game--even from afar---
....The way players shift every year, the number of teams and 6 division races --even with Sportscenter and Baseball Tonight (I rtarely if ever watch them...)unless you stay at it almost fulltime and curtail your other activities its tough to keep up with it all and for an oldtimer like me--keep it all square. I just happen to be HERE, so by osmosis I happen to pick up more of whats happening in my own back yard
I understand how people in other parts of the country must be sick of the ESPN hype on the Sox/Yankees, Heck, Im sick of it, and I think its ridiculous to forcefeed it to people who may or may not care and jam it down their throats ad infinitum...., People who are here(New England/NY) know what it means to them and their day and dont really need or want someone jumping on their coattails, to steal it, wrestle it away, hype it and make it into something its not. It is what it is, its exciting, its good baseball, we dont need someone to tell us that
I would just as soon see more, Dodger, Ranger, Cub or DBack games so that I do get to know a little whats happening outside my own arena.....Thats why I enjoy coming here--I honestly get more interacting with real fans, than I can ever get from talking head highlight shows.
I like (or dislike)my team because it is what I see everyday and I see their patterns for good or bad close up. Its fascinating as an observer, as it is with just about any team, anywhere...I am sure there are great fans of the Seibu Lions, The Toledo Mudhens and the Glasgow Midlanders as well
Its not my fault (or NE/NY's fault)that ESPN ( dont watch them much anyway)and the national networks has dropped the ball on much of the rest of the country and played ratings over good reporting, complain about them if you want and rightfully people should, but targeting NE/NY fans because they have been targetted by the hype machine isnt really fair. most of them are honest fans who just love the game and happen to be here stuck between one of these two teams....
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hiway29
I wasn't trying to 'start something', just making a perhaps unfair observance based on what's posted in here.
Hey, noone knows more than me what being a Yankee fan is all about, having lived the first half of my life in Connecticut and living and dying by them. I was as myopic a fan as you ever saw until I moved west and 'spread my wings'.
I do think it's easy to follow other teams if one wants to-there's no lack of information out there.
Anyway- I have no issues with the Nation here. I apologize if it came across like that.
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Tom Strange
...well I have issues with it just because they refer to themselves as "the nation"...
we'll see how they feel when "we" win the world series this year!
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hiway29
I hear you about 'the nation' and refer to it somewhat tongue in cheek.
"They' do sometimes think they are 'better' fans-present company excepted in here of course.
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Eagle
Perhaps we need to find a way to find out just by what percentage steroids enhances performance and then reduce the number of homeruns and anything else in Bonds and MacGuire's records by that percentage and put THAT in the record books.
Won't happen.
Hank Aaron should, when asked how he feels when Bonds breaks the record, say, "Whatever..."
It would be nice to have fans sit down and not say or do anything when Bonds breaks Aaron's record. Aaron's record was real and natural. The REAL record.
IMHO.
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Rocky
It's spelled "McGwire" and McGwire did himself in by the wussy way he testified before Congress...
I agree... Bonds WILL break the record... sooner, rather than later.
I agree baseball will "move on"... I think Bonds should have an ASTERISK tattoo'd beside his name in the record books (he won't just lead MLB in HRs, don't for get BBs).
I think Bonds knowingly did steroids. But I also must acknowledge that he is dangerous NOT simply for how far the ball flies... but also because he doesn't strike out profusely, like most homerun hitters... steroids probably do not deserve the credit for his hand/eye coordination and lightning reflexes and bat speed. IMO.
Mstar... Schilling had a bad case of diarrhea of the mouth... he's been known to have that on a recurring basis. He should stick to worrying about his game (ie his pitching, his record, his team).
However, your asterisk is probably as good as any that might be proposed... and I DO believe an asterisk is in order here.
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Rocky
Compare the number of former MLB pitchers that have died as a result of BRAIN CANCER to the incidence of brain cancer in the general population. Then tell me what other possible factors could have been responsible for the incredible number of these pitchers having suffered such a horrific fate.
THEN tell me whether it's just a "possible" fact.
Do we need to begin naming those pitchers?
What position did the guy from the Diamondbacks, that got indicted by the feds for receiving steriods in the mail a year or two ago, play? (Hint -- he watched games from the Dbacks' bullpen)
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Tom Strange
It's all so sad but it's a fact of life in the big leagues... and the saddest thing (to me) about BB is that he was such a talented and gifted player to begin with. Who knows what Junior could've done if he'd had all that chemical help...
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hiway29
Schilling has since 'apologized' for those statements. According to the radio guy I heard it from, Schilling and Bonds have a history of 'hating' each other.
That Bonds would have been one of the greatest players without steroids makes it that much sadder.I was going to say the steroids weren't to blame for his surliness or ego, but who knows if they haven't played a part. Extreme mood changes are a side effect with steroid use.
Thankfully, Junior never went that route (I don't THINK). With his history of injuries and illness, steroid use could have seriously backfired on him.
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johniam
Baseball is not about numbers; it's about achievement. Hank Aaron eclipsed Babe Ruth's home run total, but he did not eclipse his achievement. Bonds will probably break the record, but again he will not negate Hank Aaron's achievement.
I agree MLBs credibility is thin.
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nyunknown
Barry bonds will break the record. Its sad though. He was a hall of famer before he took steroids. When he retires lets see how many votes he gets.
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mstar1
thats why I come here, or the other thread really, There is only so much you can get from a 30 second highlight show, or a morning news article-that really doesnt tell much of the story-They really dont interest me all that much and I dont watch them much because they water the game down and rarely give you any real interesting info.that makes the game (imo)... like watching pitchers work through a batting order or a hitter work a good at bat and make adjustments through the game or the million and one variables that make for a well played game....
I already have my hands full with life and watching one team thats right in front of me--I suppose when Im older I may get the MLBTV package and watch all the games but Im a little too busy just yet to do that---So's I come here and a few other boards to get filled in with things of interest as I do enjoy talking baseball and getting filled in with just about anyone, anywhere.
The game still fascinates me after all these years.
As far as Red Sox Nation goes its just a name some writer conjured that has been around since at least the early 70's, to name the fans, similar to the Bleacher Bums in Chicago, or the DogPound in Cleveland. As usual the national media picked it upi 20 years too late and beat it to death over the last 4 or 5 years because they havent gotten imaginations or insights of their own. Hell I wish they'd get off it...but it doesnt negate the fact that if the RS play anywhere in the country there will be agood size contingent of RS fans there...
anyway WTF are we talking about?
Barry Bonds?
I'd be more interested in hearing stories about Omar Vizquel or Ryan Klesko really, or whats right and wrong with the TEAM or how they are dealing with this bondscircus.
If he got to 750 or 754 and the Giants were offered a trade that would vastly improve there team and their chances of winning the NL West would they do it?
Would you?
...........
are you staying out of those fires?
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hiway29
I'm away from the fires , but not from the smoke. Griffith Park is just down the road from work, and the air has been smoky for days now. It even gets into my underground parking lot.
I'm not sure how Bond's teammates will respond when he breaks the record.I remember when he hit 600, they went out of their way NOT to congratulate him. At the time it had nothing to do with steroids-they just didn't like him.
The fans in San Francisco seem to embrace him, so I have to think Barry will do all he can to hit it at home. Unless he doesn't care about fan response.
There are always Yankee fans, or Bosox fans when they play the Angels. In Dodger Stadium, it's Giants, Cubs, but surprisingly not many Mets fans. What impresses me are Pirates, or KC Royals fans.
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mstar1
True enough, Those are fans-----my father originally being from Pittsburg, still talks about Forbes Field once in awhile, and the Waner Brothers---I'll admire anyone who likes the game enough to be there during the lean years....
I said before on these threads that I *almost* wish that the Sox would sukk for a few years so things can get back to normal, the fair weather fans would leave, the hype would die down and you could go to the park on a whim....( well I almost wish...)
I was there with the Sox in the 60's when attendance could be 2 or 3 thousand a game and they had to give things away to get people to come.... which is a far cry from today where the could hold a 2am game in a blizzard, charge $300/ticket and still be sold out..
Good luck with the smoke-
of course you could always come back someplace safe......like the Bronx
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Bolshevik
I think homeruns are overrated anyhow. I wish they'd make the fields bigger or the air thicker or something. I find it more exciting to see stolen bases, savy baserunning, hit and runs, sacrifices and all that. Not that I don't like homeruns and seeing balls hit into the stratosphere, just wish they were a little less common.
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mstar1
Agreed!
I like a clutch homerun as much as anyone BUT There is a LOT more to the game that is more important and I really could care less to see a 'highlight' if someone hits one when the score is 9-1 (or something) which only pads stats and momentarily oohs and ahhs the crowd.
Give me a well executed hit and run, or a good throw from right to third to cut down a crucial runner anyday
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excathedra
ahhhhhhhh i'm really enjoying little league
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Bolshevik
or how bout playing a ball of the green monster?
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rhino
I'm not sure Bonds will break it ... some overly zealous fan might club him on the knee ... like what happened to Nancy Kerrigan
or does Bonds have bodyguards now?
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