There was often a manipulation of free will, though. TWI would use any means possible to pressure you, coerce you, shame you, trick you into thinking it was God's will for you to go WOW or Corps…Yeah – and people should count the cost – which may include the cost of leaving your spouse or family behind if they don't want to "do God's will."
And speaking of commitments – it's a shame that many couples sacrificed their marriage [breaking a scared commitment to God – a covenant ordained by God way back in Genesis] being deceived by TWI into thinking a commitment to an organization had higher priority than their marriage...
But that was what they believed. Others in twi believed differently. In that case it was up to the couple to decide for themselves their own priorities, which means their own free will was completely in play.
I remember PLENTY of wonderful folks who never went WOW or Corps, were into twi as much as was possible for them, but also had jobs and careers and family they didn't want to part with, many issues that couldn't be disturbed. These folks counted the cost, and made the decision they couldn't do it. Bear in mind my recollection of twi is between, say, 1972-1991. I left in 1991.
But that was what they believed. Others in twi believed differently. In that case it was up to the couple to decide for themselves their own priorities, which means their own free will was completely in play.
I remember PLENTY of wonderful folks who never went WOW or Corps, were into twi as much as was possible for them, but also had jobs and careers and family they didn't want to part with, many issues that couldn't be disturbed. These folks counted the cost, and made the decision they couldn't do it. Bear in mind my recollection of twi is between, say, 1972-1991. I left in 1991.
Which is exactly my point in post #113 – and how any good manipulator works. A manipulator really can’t make you do anything [usurp your free will]. But a good manipulator can tug on your emotions and fears so it looks to you like the only correct choice or best choice is the one they present. Yes – your free will is completely in play – but you are making choices based on incomplete or deceptive information or someone else's suggestion of priorities. TWI followers are free to decide their own priorities – however TWI has a knack for portraying their agenda as having the highest priority – “now you wouldn’t want to disappoint God would you?” The folks you mentioned who never went WOW or Corps sound like pretty smart people…I know…I know…Oldies Man, you’re trying to let me save face. I appreciate that but – I need to face the music. It’s my own fault for going in the Corps. Shame on me for being stupid enough to believe TWI’s BS…Alright, alright…let me come clean here…There’s a pattern to my stupidity. It all started when I took PFAL – figured I didn’t need the ol’ brain after that. I would just ask God what I should do – funny how it always centered around TWI’s agenda.
Jean, ultimately all humans will fall short and disappoint so it is very smart to place your trust in God. It is true that some good things came out of my involvement with TWI as well. But as I said and I believe you have as well, those good things can be attributed to individuals and not the ministry as a whole (ultimately God takes the credit but I think you understand what I am saying).
The milk is a great analogy to illustrate this phenomena. As it isn't all sour. And not everyone that shops at the same store will come away with sour milk. A different day of the week or a different supervisor or any number of variables will change the outcome. But the bottom line remains the same. The store is responsible to provide what it advertises. If the store feels that the product is faulty then they talk to the dairy and so on. But the store still bears a certain amount of responsibility.
In similar fashion the ministry advertised several products. They delivered on a few of them. But it seemed that the deeper or more involved you became the less likely you were to recieve that for which you paid.
Yes, the good things can be attributed to individuals, and so can the bad things, and not the ministry as a whole. My WOW year was a nightmare, and I was profoundly grateful for it to be over; but yet I learned many good things during that year, and I would never blame the program as a whole for my bad experience. The program delivered what I had signed on the line for (and much more), and that wasn't negated by the behavior of the other members of my 'family'. As I think John has said, some of the best people I have ever met have been Corp grads, and some of the biggest a$$holes also. I think that as the ministry became more and more worldly, the quality of the leadership diminished. One gentleman I had the privilege of knowing was a 2nd Corp grad and he was one of the finest people I have ever met; a man of great integrity who talked the walk, and walked the talk. I have also known men of lesser integrity who went out of their way to believe lies about me and my family. As I believe both of us have said at different times, our obligation to 'obey' our leadership is premised on the idea that they are ministers to us for good. It is the same principle as the ones that govern the relation of parent and child; 'Children, obey your parents in the Lord", and "Fathers, provoke not your children to wrath". The Word once again functions as a "two-edged sword", not merely one-edged.
Was destiny discussed in this thread? A Wayfer believes we determine our outcome by our believing (free will). Other churches teach that God is in control. God has a purpose for people. (i.e. the jews being God's chosen people, JC, Paul being a chosen vessel).
Was destiny discussed in this thread? A Wayfer believes we determine our outcome by our believing (free will). Other churches teach that God is in control. God has a purpose for people. (i.e. the jews being God's chosen people, JC, Paul being a chosen vessel).
Any thoughts on that?
I heard Mr. Wineg@rn3r, Sr. teach on this a couple of times.
Mind you, I'm not denouncing nor advocating this as true. I'm simply stating what he taught.
He gave no scriptural validation that I recall of.
Imagine ,if you will, in "3-D", an ice cream cone turned upside down.
The cone represents eternity.
God sits on top of the cone (which is actually what we think of as the bottom or pointed end.)
A line starts at the top and spirals down the side until it reaches the bottom.
This line represents what we call time. Man can not comprehend the scope of eternity so he has invented a way to measure out portions of it and he calls those portions "time"
Because God is at the apex of the cone, he can see any given point on the spiraling line which represents time.
Man, being a traveler on the spiraling line, is responsible for his actions and behaviour as he moves along the line.
Not only does God observe, but he can see any point on the line thus he can see the future before it arrives though he allows man to travel freely along his way.
This is a fascinating way to view eternity. The problem I always had with it, though, is it makes it difficult to reconcile the value of prayer. Why pray if God can already see the outcome? Is He merely an observer or does He have the ability to alter what happens on that line?
Anybody else remember hearing F. & G. Wineg@rn3r teach these things as they moved about as "Roving Ambassadors"?
This would have to have been many years ago as I believe both of them have been gone for 20 years or so.
Was destiny discussed in this thread? A Wayfer believes we determine our outcome by our believing (free will). Other churches teach that God is in control. God has a purpose for people. (i.e. the jews being God's chosen people, JC, Paul being a chosen vessel).
Any thoughts on that?
It could be another instance where something is predestination from God's perspective and free will from man's perspective. I am thinking of Joseph rising to be second in command of Egypt just in time to save the nation of Israel from starvation in a famine, and also of Esther, who rose to a position of power just in time to preserve the Christ line. Did God have something to do with the cicumstances that allowed both of them to be in those positions at a strategic time? Yes, definitely, but each of them had to be willing to do God's will by the freedom of their own will (and for both of them it involved risking their lives to do so).
I heard Mr. Wineg@rn3r, Sr. teach on this a couple of times.
Mind you, I'm not denouncing nor advocating this as true. I'm simply stating what he taught.
He gave no scriptural validation that I recall of.
Imagine ,if you will, in "3-D", an ice cream cone turned upside down.
The cone represents eternity.
God sits on top of the cone (which is actually what we think of as the bottom or pointed end.)
A line starts at the top and spirals down the side until it reaches the bottom.
This line represents what we call time. Man can not comprehend the scope of eternity so he has invented a way to measure out portions of it and he calls those portions "time"
Because God is at the apex of the cone, he can see any given point on the spiraling line which represents time.
Man, being a traveler on the spiraling line, is responsible for his actions and behaviour as he moves along the line.
Not only does God observe, but he can see any point on the line thus he can see the future before it arrives though he allows man to travel freely along his way.
This is a fascinating way to view eternity. The problem I always had with it, though, is it makes it difficult to reconcile the value of prayer. Why pray if God can already see the outcome? Is He merely an observer or does He have the ability to alter what happens on that line?
Anybody else remember hearing F. & G. Wineg@rn3r teach these things as they moved about as "Roving Ambassadors"?
This would have to have been many years ago as I believe both of them have been gone for 20 years or so.
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oldiesman
But that was what they believed. Others in twi believed differently. In that case it was up to the couple to decide for themselves their own priorities, which means their own free will was completely in play.
I remember PLENTY of wonderful folks who never went WOW or Corps, were into twi as much as was possible for them, but also had jobs and careers and family they didn't want to part with, many issues that couldn't be disturbed. These folks counted the cost, and made the decision they couldn't do it. Bear in mind my recollection of twi is between, say, 1972-1991. I left in 1991.
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T-Bone
Which is exactly my point in post #113 – and how any good manipulator works. A manipulator really can’t make you do anything [usurp your free will]. But a good manipulator can tug on your emotions and fears so it looks to you like the only correct choice or best choice is the one they present. Yes – your free will is completely in play – but you are making choices based on incomplete or deceptive information or someone else's suggestion of priorities. TWI followers are free to decide their own priorities – however TWI has a knack for portraying their agenda as having the highest priority – “now you wouldn’t want to disappoint God would you?” The folks you mentioned who never went WOW or Corps sound like pretty smart people…I know…I know…Oldies Man, you’re trying to let me save face. I appreciate that but – I need to face the music. It’s my own fault for going in the Corps. Shame on me for being stupid enough to believe TWI’s BS…Alright, alright…let me come clean here…There’s a pattern to my stupidity. It all started when I took PFAL – figured I didn’t need the ol’ brain after that. I would just ask God what I should do – funny how it always centered around TWI’s agenda.
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Ham
I dunno. Can an udder bring forth fresh milk and sour?
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Jeaniam
Yes, the good things can be attributed to individuals, and so can the bad things, and not the ministry as a whole. My WOW year was a nightmare, and I was profoundly grateful for it to be over; but yet I learned many good things during that year, and I would never blame the program as a whole for my bad experience. The program delivered what I had signed on the line for (and much more), and that wasn't negated by the behavior of the other members of my 'family'. As I think John has said, some of the best people I have ever met have been Corp grads, and some of the biggest a$$holes also. I think that as the ministry became more and more worldly, the quality of the leadership diminished. One gentleman I had the privilege of knowing was a 2nd Corp grad and he was one of the finest people I have ever met; a man of great integrity who talked the walk, and walked the talk. I have also known men of lesser integrity who went out of their way to believe lies about me and my family. As I believe both of us have said at different times, our obligation to 'obey' our leadership is premised on the idea that they are ministers to us for good. It is the same principle as the ones that govern the relation of parent and child; 'Children, obey your parents in the Lord", and "Fathers, provoke not your children to wrath". The Word once again functions as a "two-edged sword", not merely one-edged.
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What The Hey
Hmmmm ... I wonder, just how good are the cookies if the milk is sour?
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Bolshevik
(not eager to reread entire thread)
Was destiny discussed in this thread? A Wayfer believes we determine our outcome by our believing (free will). Other churches teach that God is in control. God has a purpose for people. (i.e. the jews being God's chosen people, JC, Paul being a chosen vessel).
Any thoughts on that?
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waysider
I heard Mr. Wineg@rn3r, Sr. teach on this a couple of times.
Mind you, I'm not denouncing nor advocating this as true. I'm simply stating what he taught.
He gave no scriptural validation that I recall of.
-------------------------------------------------------
Imagine ,if you will, in "3-D", an ice cream cone turned upside down.
The cone represents eternity.
God sits on top of the cone (which is actually what we think of as the bottom or pointed end.)
A line starts at the top and spirals down the side until it reaches the bottom.
This line represents what we call time. Man can not comprehend the scope of eternity so he has invented a way to measure out portions of it and he calls those portions "time"
Because God is at the apex of the cone, he can see any given point on the spiraling line which represents time.
Man, being a traveler on the spiraling line, is responsible for his actions and behaviour as he moves along the line.
Not only does God observe, but he can see any point on the line thus he can see the future before it arrives though he allows man to travel freely along his way.
-------------------------------------------------------------
This is a fascinating way to view eternity. The problem I always had with it, though, is it makes it difficult to reconcile the value of prayer. Why pray if God can already see the outcome? Is He merely an observer or does He have the ability to alter what happens on that line?
Anybody else remember hearing F. & G. Wineg@rn3r teach these things as they moved about as "Roving Ambassadors"?
This would have to have been many years ago as I believe both of them have been gone for 20 years or so.
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Jeaniam
It could be another instance where something is predestination from God's perspective and free will from man's perspective. I am thinking of Joseph rising to be second in command of Egypt just in time to save the nation of Israel from starvation in a famine, and also of Esther, who rose to a position of power just in time to preserve the Christ line. Did God have something to do with the cicumstances that allowed both of them to be in those positions at a strategic time? Yes, definitely, but each of them had to be willing to do God's will by the freedom of their own will (and for both of them it involved risking their lives to do so).
He altered what happened in Ninevah.
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