One definition of coercion is government by force. You know.. do it, or die..
manipulation is much more subtle, not so up front.
You can lead a horse to water by salting his oats.. or you can try to drive him to it with a whip.
I guess either way, the horse needs to get the water. In the first instance (manipulation) the horse ends up with a physical need that must be met, while in the second, the horse needs the water in order to avoid pain.
I suppose the horse could run away, but in any case, the horse cannot avoid the "consequences" of its actions, either ending up dehydrated or beaten and bruised.
Either way, he ends up feeling like a horse's a**.
Being wrong in that situation could cost you your soul and the "hand of protection" from God.
in reference to how TWI operated and why it was coercive to the point that we _really_ didn't have a free-will choice.
Hoo-kay, in that case, would you (and others who agree with you here) apply the same rendering to mainstream, orthodox churches who say that unless you "come to Jesus/be saved" then you will be cast out from His Presence/into the lake of fire come Judgement Day? ... I mean, talk about something that will 'cost you your soul'! :o
Coercive, is it not? I mean, let's be consistant here. And yet, how much of that mainstream teaching allowed without so much as a 2nd thought among the same posters here? ... Wordwolf? JavaJane? Anyone else? :huh:
in reference to how TWI operated and why it was coercive to the point that we _really_ didn't have a free-will choice.
Hoo-kay, in that case, would you (and others who agree with you here) apply the same rendering to mainstream, orthodox churches who say that unless you "come to Jesus/be saved" then you will be cast out from His Presence/into the lake of fire come Judgement Day? ... I mean, talk about something that will 'cost you your soul'! :o
Coercive, is it not? I mean, let's be consistant here. And yet, how much of that mainstream teaching allowed without so much as a 2nd thought among the same posters here? ... Wordwolf? JavaJane? Anyone else? :huh:
Well... I don't believe that people who won't come to Jesus/be saved will be cast into the lake of fire. I've never believed that. Even (if I remember correctly) while in twi it was taught that the lake of fire would be reserved for the devil and his children, not for people who just didn't chose to believe in Christ.
I do agree that teaching that you will burn forever is coercive, however.
God gave us the ability to think and exist and do. I think He wanted children who would love him even though they could think... not because he was ready to hit you over the head at any given moment, or throw you into a burning lake, or because any other alternative was too horrific to think about.
The reason I wanted to start this thread was to better understand how "free will" operates, and how to access it better. When I said we had "all" been coerced, I did not specifically mean JUST by twi. Even Eve was coerced... so was Adam... the devil tried to coerce Jesus Christ... Every human being has dealt with this in some form or another.
This forum just seemed a good place to ask, because so many people here do feel like they were coerced, manipulated, or otherwise had their free will usurped by an organization...
So, just as a refresher, since we're so far into this thread... here are my original questions:
1. How far does free will go - by this I mean, how far does free will cover the actions taken by people in circumstances that are beyond their control?
2. In hindsight, we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do... is this infringement of free will?
3. What cicumstances have you been in that you feel your free will has been infringed upon?
So, just as a refresher, since we're so far into this thread... here are my original questions:
1. How far does free will go - by this I mean, how far does free will cover the actions taken by people in circumstances that are beyond their control?
2. In hindsight, we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do... is this infringement of free will?
3. What cicumstances have you been in that you feel your free will has been infringed upon?
1. We can make decisions according to whatever pops in our head, how do we control what pops into our head? Beyond our control is probably where Faith and prayer is.
2. We put our trust in them, they lied, decisions we made were based on that trust.
3. if free will is something that cannot be infringed upon, then we were in situations of broken trust and backstabbing. Free will decision are not always based on good information, because this doesn't always seem to be available.
1. We can make decisions according to whatever pops in our head, how do we control what pops into our head? Beyond our control is probably where Faith and prayer is.
2. We put our trust in them, they lied, decisions we made were based on that trust.
3. if free will is something that cannot be infringed upon, then we were in situations of broken trust and backstabbing. Free will decision are not always based on good information, because this doesn't always seem to be available.
1. We control what pops into our head by renewing our minds to the Word (Bible, for those non-TWI members) as in Romans 12:1-3.
2. The Bible exhorts us to obey and be in subjection to those that have the rule over us; but it is based on the premise that they are ministers of God to us for good (Romans 13:1-7). In Romans 13:7 we are exhorted to render to all their dues, but I question what that means in any situation where the leaders are not fulfilling their obligation to us to be the ministers of God for good. I have known many men and women who were ministers of God to me for good (mostly in the early days of TWI); and I have known some who were anything but (mostly in the latter days of TWI). The last TC & BC we had held a meeting where John and I were grilled about our children's behavior both at fellowship and at home. We were asked various questions about our son's behavior at home (did he clean up his room, put away his clothes, help with chores, etc.) and when I assured the TC & BC that he did all of these things, the two gentlemen received 'revelation' that I was lying to protect him and that he must be possessed by at least one devil spirit, directly due to what a terrible mother I was, since he had no physical problems (as far as they knew, which wasn't very far). BTW our son was only four at the time. Two days later John was called and informed that, of our family, only he and our daughter were welcome at fellowship, and if he really wanted to serve God, and save his children from me, he should take the children and divorce me, totally ignoring the fact that I was pregnant with our third child at the time. At that point his free will re-emerged and he reminded them of what the letters FO usually stand for. God has continued to work in our lives since then and has never let us down, no matter badly men have. I guess my point in sharing the previous story is that we were under no obligation to obey leaders who were not looking out for our best interests (which is their part of the obligation). BTW both our younger children were later diagnosed with a physical illness that contributed to their behavior; an inborn error of metabolism similar to PKU that causes brain damage if not caught and treated in time. I sent a copy of the diagnosis to the aforementioned TC and BC; however they didn't care.
3. Good information is always available from God, no matter how flawed our human advisors may be. I think the biggest mistake we made was to assume our leaders always had our best interests at heart until it became more than abundantly clear that their advice was far more self-seeking than altruistic.
TWI argues that bad things happened to Joseph (son of Israel) because of by his free will choice he made bad decisions that got himself into trouble.
They really make free will a bad thing. That's why you need leadership. To do the work of the holy spirit.
You could argue that Joseph got himself into trouble in Genesis 37:1-36 because of his indiscretion in revealing his dreams and the interpretations of them; but after that he seems to mostly have gotten into trouble through the evil designs of others (his brothers, to a certain extent; Potiphar's wife, which was no fault of his, etc.). But the end result was to put him in the position of second-in-command of Egypt at a crucial time in history, and he only got there by his habit of trusting God; and God came through for him repeatedly in making lemonade out of what must have seemed like very bitter lemons at times.
I suppose the horse could run away, but in any case, the horse cannot avoid the "consequences" of its actions, either ending up dehydrated or beaten and bruised.
Either way, he ends up feeling like a horse's a**.
I think that's the whole point. Either way, the deception has the same effect.
One way, we were robbed, the other, we were conned.
And the vp apologists try to argue that there really is a difference between the two, "well, you didn't get beat over the head with a lead pipe, he just conned you. It was your decision, your fault, you lose".
"get over it".
And like those who went to see P.T. Barnums "egress", they think it is funny to watch it happen to somebody else, or minimize it, as some kind of rite of passage.
Funny.. remarkable similarity here.. a lot of people paid to get in, and found themselves on the street..
And the vp apologists try to argue that there really is a difference between the two, "well, you didn't get beat over the head with a lead pipe, he just conned you. It was your decision, your fault, you lose".
"get over it".
And like those who went to see P.T. Barnums "egress", they think it is funny to watch it happen to somebody else, or minimize it, as some kind of rite of passage.
Funny.. remarkable similarity here.. a lot of people paid to get in, and found themselves on the street..
While I would never recommend TWI to anyone in its current state and would never think it was funny to watch what happened to us happen to someone else, I still think that much of what I learned was of value at the time and still is of value today. As I have said before in other places, I received everything that I said I wanted when I signed the green card (a meaningful relationship with God, harmony in the home, etc., etc..) I agree that it eventually became a religion that was at least as legalistic as any of its predecessors.
You could argue that Joseph got himself into trouble in Genesis 37:1-36 because of his indiscretion in revealing his dreams and the interpretations of them; but after that he seems to mostly have gotten into trouble through the evil designs of others (his brothers, to a certain extent; Potiphar's wife, which was no fault of his, etc.). But the end result was to put him in the position of second-in-command of Egypt at a crucial time in history, and he only got there by his habit of trusting God; and God came through for him repeatedly in making lemonade out of what must have seemed like very bitter lemons at times.
You'll have to take that up with twi.
Everytime something "Not the best" happens at twi they scrutinize every action, decision, and thought you made or supposedly made. They use free will to put blame on you and thus requiring that you increase your submission to them (because you're admitting you screwed up and need them). I was just pointing out the obvious that their practice follows their doctrine.
1. We control what pops into our head by renewing our minds to the Word (Bible, for those non-TWI members) as in Romans 12:1-3.
2. The Bible exhorts us to obey and be in subjection to those that have the rule over us; but it is based on the premise that they are ministers of God to us for good (Romans 13:1-7). In Romans 13:7 we are exhorted to render to all their dues, but I question what that means in any situation where the leaders are not fulfilling their obligation to us to be the ministers of God for good. I have known many men and women who were ministers of God to me for good (mostly in the early days of TWI); and I have known some who were anything but (mostly in the latter days of TWI). The last TC & BC we had held a meeting where John and I were grilled about our children's behavior both at fellowship and at home. We were asked various questions about our son's behavior at home (did he clean up his room, put away his clothes, help with chores, etc.) and when I assured the TC & BC that he did all of these things, the two gentlemen received 'revelation' that I was lying to protect him and that he must be possessed by at least one devil spirit, directly due to what a terrible mother I was, since he had no physical problems (as far as they knew, which wasn't very far). BTW our son was only four at the time. Two days later John was called and informed that, of our family, only he and our daughter were welcome at fellowship, and if he really wanted to serve God, and save his children from me, he should take the children and divorce me, totally ignoring the fact that I was pregnant with our third child at the time. At that point his free will re-emerged and he reminded them of what the letters FO usually stand for. God has continued to work in our lives since then and has never let us down, no matter badly men have. I guess my point in sharing the previous story is that we were under no obligation to obey leaders who were not looking out for our best interests (which is their part of the obligation). BTW both our younger children were later diagnosed with a physical illness that contributed to their behavior; an inborn error of metabolism similar to PKU that causes brain damage if not caught and treated in time. I sent a copy of the diagnosis to the aforementioned TC and BC; however they didn't care.
3. Good information is always available from God, no matter how flawed our human advisors may be. I think the biggest mistake we made was to assume our leaders always had our best interests at heart until it became more than abundantly clear that their advice was far more self-seeking than altruistic.
1. If I'm walking down the street and see an advertisement, whether or not I notice that information depends upon how much I've renewed my mind? Or if someone talks to me? Or what you wrote to me? I don't know that a renewed mind means we now have filters on our mental input. Yes we can avoid situations to the best or our ability, but ultimately we can only control so much.
This whole thread probably belongs in doctrinal. I'll just reiterate that twi is run by @-holes.
Did I think it would result in calamity for my family and possibly their deaths? Yes.
Seems very similar to having a gun pointed at them, only I couldn't see the gun... That gun was God.
And what about the child who was thrown in prison? Well, here's a happy ending... That child is now an adult who has been through a lot, and has a lot to give. This individual exercised their free will and overcame their addiction and got out of the gangs.
In many ways, twi was my addiction. GSC is my rehab.
I can only imagine the terrible pain this caused you. But the way you worded that cut straight to the heart. I didn't endure such terrible decisions as you.
I dissed my family because they were coputs. My sister and I lived in the same town but didn't hang out because she was in Geer's group and I in Craig's. I wish I could go back and love her unconditionally like God would have. But thankfully we are all back together and loving each other unconditionally and will all live closer in this next year.
You are right that God was like a gun in TWI, and it was an addiction.
Everytime something "Not the best" happens at twi they scrutinize every action, decision, and thought you made or supposedly made. They use free will to put blame on you and thus requiring that you increase your submission to them (because you're admitting you screwed up and need them). I was just pointing out the obvious that their practice follows their doctrine.
True, nowadays. I still think it's a shame that what started off as a very good thing could sink to such depths.
Well, I can speak a little about the Corps because I was there for a little while.
Folks have free will in the Corps. But, a corps volunteer voluntarily decides to submit to someone else's orders while in training. The corps volunteer is under training to do what your superior tells you to do.
If you didn't agree with that, or couldn't agree with that after signing up, you had the free will to leave.
You had the free will to leave fellowships and classes.
So this concept is true of all twi activities, with the exceptions I offered above.
Hi Oldiesman
You and I have never conversed directly but I find your posts to be quite good at getting my mind to working. I do not often agree with you but you do make me think. As in this case. I do not remember this statement (bold type) ever being made to me or having it on the application or anywhere else for that matter. I was told that the Way Corps volunteer was going into training to become adept, learned and spiritually sharp leaders and ministers to God's people. One could argue that to accomplish this task one must take orders from their superiors, and they would be correct. But I was not in training to do what my superior told me to do. I was in training to learn the Word of God so that I could do what God told me to do. Once again it can be argued that in the Bible we are told to submit to our leaders in the Word. But they are not "superior" to me, they may be more learned, but not superior. Also they are only human and they make mistakes and I am biblically bound to only accept orders from them if they line up with the Word.
Most Way Corps did not go into the training program thinking that they were there to "follow their superiors orders". Most went in believing that they would be taught how to walk more spiritually so that they could hear God better and therefore follow his orders. This was the choice they made by their free will. But as someone pointed out once they got there things were not as they had been led to believe and leaving was a difficult choice for some and near impossible for others.
I am not trying to nit pic here, that comment just really rubbed me the wrong way and it is possible that it was not meant in the manner that I recieved it so please do not take offence.
I am not in as much pain as I used to be... I'm feeling much better after having a nice hot cup of reality to wake me up! I guess that's good!
(((((((((((((((((((JavaJane))))))))))))))))))))
Good Lawd lady! Wow! What an ordeal. You are an amazing woman to still be sane and in love with God after all of that. I am so glad that you found the Grease Spot rehab center and are also now reconciled with your family. I sure do love reading your posts. You have some great insight.
I would liken your situation (and many others) to this analogy. A slave had free will...he could either work like a dog from sun up to sun down every day of his short painful life, or he could try to run away and take the chance of getting shot in the back as well as condeming anyone that he left behind that he might have cared about to certain whipping and possible death. But there was always that slim chance that he would find an underground railroad or a sympathetic person and make it to the "free" North. Where he would find that although now free of physical chains he wore social ones. He had no real skill that could be used in the industrial North. He could not read or write and because of his skin color he could never truly escape the reality that everyone knew he had once been a slave. But he had free will, he could leave anytime he wanted if he was willing to accept the consequences.
You are an amazing woman to still be sane and in love with God after all of that.
Hugs to you, eyes!
I am still in love with God... I think that's because I loved Him before I ever met twi. I'm learning to know Him better now, and I am very thankful for that.
You and I have never conversed directly but I find your posts to be quite good at getting my mind to working. I do not often agree with you but you do make me think. As in this case. I do not remember this statement (bold type) ever being made to me or having it on the application or anywhere else for that matter. I was told that the Way Corps volunteer was going into training to become adept, learned and spiritually sharp leaders and ministers to God's people. One could argue that to accomplish this task one must take orders from their superiors, and they would be correct. But I was not in training to do what my superior told me to do. I was in training to learn the Word of God so that I could do what God told me to do. Once again it can be argued that in the Bible we are told to submit to our leaders in the Word. But they are not "superior" to me, they may be more learned, but not superior. Also they are only human and they make mistakes and I am biblically bound to only accept orders from them if they line up with the Word.
Most Way Corps did not go into the training program thinking that they were there to "follow their superiors orders". Most went in believing that they would be taught how to walk more spiritually so that they could hear God better and therefore follow his orders. This was the choice they made by their free will. But as someone pointed out once they got there things were not as they had been led to believe and leaving was a difficult choice for some and near impossible for others.
I am not trying to nit pic here, that comment just really rubbed me the wrong way and it is possible that it was not meant in the manner that I recieved it so please do not take offence.
love ya bro
Well, see, that's a fundamental difference between you and Oldiesman.
Oldiesman maintains that-from the beginning-as a applicant to the way corps
program, you were clearly told that you were training to spend a lifetime
serving WHEREVER TWI ASSIGNED YOU, doing WHATEVER TWI ASSIGNED YOU TO DO,
and were thus expected to be at the beck and call of twi FOR LIFE.
"A lifetime of service" clearly meant "A lifetime serving twi and following
any and all orders from twi, fully at their disposal."
Oldiesman's said that those of you who thought that the training for
"a lifetime of service" meant "a lifetime of serving GOD ALMIGHTY
with the specifics at YOUR discretion and not TWI's discretion"
were under-informed.
Mind you,
the initial advertising OF the corps seems to reflect YOUR perception-
which is why there were t-shirts that said "corps grad" on them,
i.e. the person COMPLETED their training, and thus, their obligation
to twi. Later came the removal of that expression and the sayings
like "a lifetime commitment to the corps."
Later also came the expectation that lcm was supposed to be followed
blindly. One corps person responded to the 1989 loyalty letter
by calling and saying to lcm that it sounded like he wanted them to
follow him blindly.
lcm replied that he already was doing that.
The corps person responded that if he thought that was the case, then
lcm could kiss his @$$ and hung up.
So, lcm, by 1989, certainly thought the corps were supposed to follow
him blindly for life. This was another example of the way corps
expectations exceeding the military- for once you've completed a
tour of duty with the military, you are military until you die,
but you are a private citizen with all your freedoms and responsibilities
once more. In twi, eventually, once you've completed the 4 years
of the way corps (the tour of duty), you're now expected to surrender
your freedoms at their whims for life, and have the responsibility of
dropping whatever you are doing when they call.
Oldiesman would assert that was always SUPPOSED to be the case, and
those of you who were told otherwise were misinformed, and those of
Thank you WW. I was actually "hoping" that I had misunderstood him. But I guess I did not.
I suppose that what I misunderstood was the commitment that I was making when I volunteered for the Way Corps. I honestly thought that I was making a committment to God and in my heart I was, it was the Way Corps that didn't live up to its billing. They were supposed to help me keep my commitment to God; not userp it.
For years I have felt like I had failed because I never completed that 4 year tour of duty. I have condemned myself for "breaking my commitment to God". But that's just it isn't it? My commitment was to God, not to man. I left TWI behind; not God. My commitment to Him remains and I continue to honor it and keep it. So I guess I didn't fail...funny how it took me the better part of 20 years to figure that out. <_<
Hmmm...all of this belongs in the "Conscience" thread I think.
Perhaps not; as the "hook" that kept me in TWI for so long was many barbed. The biggest barb was the line "breaking your commitment to God". I could pull away only so far before someone said that and I would clench my teeth around that hook and swallow it just a bit deeper. One just couldn't go home and admit that you were a failure in God's eyes, because you broke a commitment. There was just too much shame involved.
We always have a choice, just sometimes our choices aren't what we would like. It kind of boils down to the consequences or benefits that come with the choice. Sometimes they are hard to make, kind of like our Presidential choices...oops did I say that? :huh: :P
And the vp apologists try to argue that there really is a difference between the two, "well, you didn't get beat over the head with a lead pipe, he just conned you. It was your decision, your fault, you lose".
"get over it".
I am not in agreement in any way shape or form that I was conned. If you think that, I disagree.
However I will add this one stipulation: if Christianity is a hoax, if Christ didn't rise from the dead, if he's not coming back, if there is no eternal life with God and Christ, THEN I was CONNED.
So good to have another person that fits in here at the Spot!
I really love your postings JJ. I even copied and save a few of them for further review...hope you don't mind. Like my profile says, I love to study and the thought processes of other folks sometimes sends me in directions that I would never have thought of on my own.
Love ya sis :)
Honest to God, it wasn't because of his "good looks"..
Oh boy....You aint just a whistling Dixie here baby!! :wacko:
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JavaJane
I guess either way, the horse needs to get the water. In the first instance (manipulation) the horse ends up with a physical need that must be met, while in the second, the horse needs the water in order to avoid pain.
I suppose the horse could run away, but in any case, the horse cannot avoid the "consequences" of its actions, either ending up dehydrated or beaten and bruised.
Either way, he ends up feeling like a horse's a**.
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GarthP2000
Belle sez,
in reference to how TWI operated and why it was coercive to the point that we _really_ didn't have a free-will choice.
Hoo-kay, in that case, would you (and others who agree with you here) apply the same rendering to mainstream, orthodox churches who say that unless you "come to Jesus/be saved" then you will be cast out from His Presence/into the lake of fire come Judgement Day?
... I mean, talk about something that will 'cost you your soul'! :o
Coercive, is it not? I mean, let's be consistant here. And yet, how much of that mainstream teaching allowed without so much as a 2nd thought among the same posters here? ... Wordwolf? JavaJane? Anyone else? :huh:
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JavaJane
Well... I don't believe that people who won't come to Jesus/be saved will be cast into the lake of fire. I've never believed that. Even (if I remember correctly) while in twi it was taught that the lake of fire would be reserved for the devil and his children, not for people who just didn't chose to believe in Christ.
I do agree that teaching that you will burn forever is coercive, however.
God gave us the ability to think and exist and do. I think He wanted children who would love him even though they could think... not because he was ready to hit you over the head at any given moment, or throw you into a burning lake, or because any other alternative was too horrific to think about.
The reason I wanted to start this thread was to better understand how "free will" operates, and how to access it better. When I said we had "all" been coerced, I did not specifically mean JUST by twi. Even Eve was coerced... so was Adam... the devil tried to coerce Jesus Christ... Every human being has dealt with this in some form or another.
This forum just seemed a good place to ask, because so many people here do feel like they were coerced, manipulated, or otherwise had their free will usurped by an organization...
So, just as a refresher, since we're so far into this thread... here are my original questions:
1. How far does free will go - by this I mean, how far does free will cover the actions taken by people in circumstances that are beyond their control?
2. In hindsight, we all see that we were coerced in some way or another to do something we didn't want to do... is this infringement of free will?
3. What cicumstances have you been in that you feel your free will has been infringed upon?
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Bolshevik
1. We can make decisions according to whatever pops in our head, how do we control what pops into our head? Beyond our control is probably where Faith and prayer is.
2. We put our trust in them, they lied, decisions we made were based on that trust.
3. if free will is something that cannot be infringed upon, then we were in situations of broken trust and backstabbing. Free will decision are not always based on good information, because this doesn't always seem to be available.
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Jeaniam
1. We control what pops into our head by renewing our minds to the Word (Bible, for those non-TWI members) as in Romans 12:1-3.
2. The Bible exhorts us to obey and be in subjection to those that have the rule over us; but it is based on the premise that they are ministers of God to us for good (Romans 13:1-7). In Romans 13:7 we are exhorted to render to all their dues, but I question what that means in any situation where the leaders are not fulfilling their obligation to us to be the ministers of God for good. I have known many men and women who were ministers of God to me for good (mostly in the early days of TWI); and I have known some who were anything but (mostly in the latter days of TWI). The last TC & BC we had held a meeting where John and I were grilled about our children's behavior both at fellowship and at home. We were asked various questions about our son's behavior at home (did he clean up his room, put away his clothes, help with chores, etc.) and when I assured the TC & BC that he did all of these things, the two gentlemen received 'revelation' that I was lying to protect him and that he must be possessed by at least one devil spirit, directly due to what a terrible mother I was, since he had no physical problems (as far as they knew, which wasn't very far). BTW our son was only four at the time. Two days later John was called and informed that, of our family, only he and our daughter were welcome at fellowship, and if he really wanted to serve God, and save his children from me, he should take the children and divorce me, totally ignoring the fact that I was pregnant with our third child at the time. At that point his free will re-emerged and he reminded them of what the letters FO usually stand for. God has continued to work in our lives since then and has never let us down, no matter badly men have. I guess my point in sharing the previous story is that we were under no obligation to obey leaders who were not looking out for our best interests (which is their part of the obligation). BTW both our younger children were later diagnosed with a physical illness that contributed to their behavior; an inborn error of metabolism similar to PKU that causes brain damage if not caught and treated in time. I sent a copy of the diagnosis to the aforementioned TC and BC; however they didn't care.
3. Good information is always available from God, no matter how flawed our human advisors may be. I think the biggest mistake we made was to assume our leaders always had our best interests at heart until it became more than abundantly clear that their advice was far more self-seeking than altruistic.
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Jeaniam
You could argue that Joseph got himself into trouble in Genesis 37:1-36 because of his indiscretion in revealing his dreams and the interpretations of them; but after that he seems to mostly have gotten into trouble through the evil designs of others (his brothers, to a certain extent; Potiphar's wife, which was no fault of his, etc.). But the end result was to put him in the position of second-in-command of Egypt at a crucial time in history, and he only got there by his habit of trusting God; and God came through for him repeatedly in making lemonade out of what must have seemed like very bitter lemons at times.
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Ham
I think that's the whole point. Either way, the deception has the same effect.
One way, we were robbed, the other, we were conned.
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Ham
And the vp apologists try to argue that there really is a difference between the two, "well, you didn't get beat over the head with a lead pipe, he just conned you. It was your decision, your fault, you lose".
"get over it".
And like those who went to see P.T. Barnums "egress", they think it is funny to watch it happen to somebody else, or minimize it, as some kind of rite of passage.
Funny.. remarkable similarity here.. a lot of people paid to get in, and found themselves on the street..
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Ham
He did hit a few people over the head with a lead pipe..
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Jeaniam
While I would never recommend TWI to anyone in its current state and would never think it was funny to watch what happened to us happen to someone else, I still think that much of what I learned was of value at the time and still is of value today. As I have said before in other places, I received everything that I said I wanted when I signed the green card (a meaningful relationship with God, harmony in the home, etc., etc..) I agree that it eventually became a religion that was at least as legalistic as any of its predecessors.
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Bolshevik
You'll have to take that up with twi.
Everytime something "Not the best" happens at twi they scrutinize every action, decision, and thought you made or supposedly made. They use free will to put blame on you and thus requiring that you increase your submission to them (because you're admitting you screwed up and need them). I was just pointing out the obvious that their practice follows their doctrine.
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Bolshevik
1. If I'm walking down the street and see an advertisement, whether or not I notice that information depends upon how much I've renewed my mind? Or if someone talks to me? Or what you wrote to me? I don't know that a renewed mind means we now have filters on our mental input. Yes we can avoid situations to the best or our ability, but ultimately we can only control so much.
This whole thread probably belongs in doctrinal. I'll just reiterate that twi is run by @-holes.
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Nottawayfer
I can only imagine the terrible pain this caused you. But the way you worded that cut straight to the heart. I didn't endure such terrible decisions as you.
I dissed my family because they were coputs. My sister and I lived in the same town but didn't hang out because she was in Geer's group and I in Craig's. I wish I could go back and love her unconditionally like God would have. But thankfully we are all back together and loving each other unconditionally and will all live closer in this next year.
You are right that God was like a gun in TWI, and it was an addiction.
(((((JAVAJANE)))))
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JavaJane
Right back at ya!
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Jeaniam
I guess I agree that nowadays it is.
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Jeaniam
True, nowadays. I still think it's a shame that what started off as a very good thing could sink to such depths.
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Eyesopen
Hi Oldiesman
You and I have never conversed directly but I find your posts to be quite good at getting my mind to working. I do not often agree with you but you do make me think. As in this case. I do not remember this statement (bold type) ever being made to me or having it on the application or anywhere else for that matter. I was told that the Way Corps volunteer was going into training to become adept, learned and spiritually sharp leaders and ministers to God's people. One could argue that to accomplish this task one must take orders from their superiors, and they would be correct. But I was not in training to do what my superior told me to do. I was in training to learn the Word of God so that I could do what God told me to do. Once again it can be argued that in the Bible we are told to submit to our leaders in the Word. But they are not "superior" to me, they may be more learned, but not superior. Also they are only human and they make mistakes and I am biblically bound to only accept orders from them if they line up with the Word.
Most Way Corps did not go into the training program thinking that they were there to "follow their superiors orders". Most went in believing that they would be taught how to walk more spiritually so that they could hear God better and therefore follow his orders. This was the choice they made by their free will. But as someone pointed out once they got there things were not as they had been led to believe and leaving was a difficult choice for some and near impossible for others.
I am not trying to nit pic here, that comment just really rubbed me the wrong way and it is possible that it was not meant in the manner that I recieved it so please do not take offence.
love ya bro
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Eyesopen
(((((((((((((((((((JavaJane))))))))))))))))))))
Good Lawd lady! Wow! What an ordeal. You are an amazing woman to still be sane and in love with God after all of that. I am so glad that you found the Grease Spot rehab center and are also now reconciled with your family. I sure do love reading your posts. You have some great insight.
I would liken your situation (and many others) to this analogy. A slave had free will...he could either work like a dog from sun up to sun down every day of his short painful life, or he could try to run away and take the chance of getting shot in the back as well as condeming anyone that he left behind that he might have cared about to certain whipping and possible death. But there was always that slim chance that he would find an underground railroad or a sympathetic person and make it to the "free" North. Where he would find that although now free of physical chains he wore social ones. He had no real skill that could be used in the industrial North. He could not read or write and because of his skin color he could never truly escape the reality that everyone knew he had once been a slave. But he had free will, he could leave anytime he wanted if he was willing to accept the consequences.
love you all
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JavaJane
Hugs to you, eyes!
I am still in love with God... I think that's because I loved Him before I ever met twi. I'm learning to know Him better now, and I am very thankful for that.
but I am definately not sane.
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WordWolf
Well, see, that's a fundamental difference between you and Oldiesman.
Oldiesman maintains that-from the beginning-as a applicant to the way corps
program, you were clearly told that you were training to spend a lifetime
serving WHEREVER TWI ASSIGNED YOU, doing WHATEVER TWI ASSIGNED YOU TO DO,
and were thus expected to be at the beck and call of twi FOR LIFE.
"A lifetime of service" clearly meant "A lifetime serving twi and following
any and all orders from twi, fully at their disposal."
Oldiesman's said that those of you who thought that the training for
"a lifetime of service" meant "a lifetime of serving GOD ALMIGHTY
with the specifics at YOUR discretion and not TWI's discretion"
were under-informed.
Mind you,
the initial advertising OF the corps seems to reflect YOUR perception-
which is why there were t-shirts that said "corps grad" on them,
i.e. the person COMPLETED their training, and thus, their obligation
to twi. Later came the removal of that expression and the sayings
like "a lifetime commitment to the corps."
Later also came the expectation that lcm was supposed to be followed
blindly. One corps person responded to the 1989 loyalty letter
by calling and saying to lcm that it sounded like he wanted them to
follow him blindly.
lcm replied that he already was doing that.
The corps person responded that if he thought that was the case, then
lcm could kiss his @$$ and hung up.
So, lcm, by 1989, certainly thought the corps were supposed to follow
him blindly for life. This was another example of the way corps
expectations exceeding the military- for once you've completed a
tour of duty with the military, you are military until you die,
but you are a private citizen with all your freedoms and responsibilities
once more. In twi, eventually, once you've completed the 4 years
of the way corps (the tour of duty), you're now expected to surrender
your freedoms at their whims for life, and have the responsibility of
dropping whatever you are doing when they call.
Oldiesman would assert that was always SUPPOSED to be the case, and
those of you who were told otherwise were misinformed, and those of
you who thought otherwise were incorrect.
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Eyesopen
Thank you WW. I was actually "hoping" that I had misunderstood him. But I guess I did not.
I suppose that what I misunderstood was the commitment that I was making when I volunteered for the Way Corps. I honestly thought that I was making a committment to God and in my heart I was, it was the Way Corps that didn't live up to its billing. They were supposed to help me keep my commitment to God; not userp it.
For years I have felt like I had failed because I never completed that 4 year tour of duty. I have condemned myself for "breaking my commitment to God". But that's just it isn't it? My commitment was to God, not to man. I left TWI behind; not God. My commitment to Him remains and I continue to honor it and keep it. So I guess I didn't fail...funny how it took me the better part of 20 years to figure that out. <_<
Hmmm...all of this belongs in the "Conscience" thread I think.
Perhaps not; as the "hook" that kept me in TWI for so long was many barbed. The biggest barb was the line "breaking your commitment to God". I could pull away only so far before someone said that and I would clench my teeth around that hook and swallow it just a bit deeper. One just couldn't go home and admit that you were a failure in God's eyes, because you broke a commitment. There was just too much shame involved.
We always have a choice, just sometimes our choices aren't what we would like. It kind of boils down to the consequences or benefits that come with the choice. Sometimes they are hard to make, kind of like our Presidential choices...oops did I say that? :huh:
:P
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oldiesman
I am not in agreement in any way shape or form that I was conned. If you think that, I disagree.
However I will add this one stipulation: if Christianity is a hoax, if Christ didn't rise from the dead, if he's not coming back, if there is no eternal life with God and Christ, THEN I was CONNED.
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Ham
Well, the only way I can think of that the vicmeister could lure women into the motorcoach:
1. con them
2. hit them over the head with a lead pipe (drugs, coercion, etc.)
Honest to God, it wasn't because of his "good looks"..
If you want to argue the "subtle" differences between the two, and claim that it was all their freedom of will, go ahead..
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Eyesopen
So good to have another person that fits in here at the Spot!
I really love your postings JJ. I even copied and save a few of them for further review...hope you don't mind. Like my profile says, I love to study and the thought processes of other folks sometimes sends me in directions that I would never have thought of on my own.
Love ya sis :)
Oh boy....You aint just a whistling Dixie here baby!! :wacko:
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