I"m sooo sorry!! You're absolutely correct that some of us did have that figurative gun held to our heads. Absolutely! When it's death, hell and damnation or doing what the leadership of TWI told us to do, there really isn't much of a choice.... not from our perspective and reality at that time. I'm afraid you're going to have some folks on here most likely retort with some harsh words as they think we should have just left, but they don't have much compassion and they absolutely have no idea how intense the pressure and how powerful the threats were for those of us who experienced it.
You said earlier:
I think the only way I could ever really have the ability to be free is to recognize that I don't have to be "right" with God because He's my dad, and loves me no matter if I make the right choice or the wrong choice. This is standing fast in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, not being entangled with the yoke of bondage (legalism, trying to cleanse yourself of all unrighteousness.)
I hope that makes sense. True free will could only come about once the fear of being wrong is eliminated.
It makes perfect sense and is bang on accurate, I think!
That's what I started saying the last few years I was involved, "My own Daddy treats me better than you're telling me God is going to treat me if I don't do what you say." All the threats of God removing his "hand of protection" ... God not spitting on my direction if I didn't give more $$ to them .... God not being able to "bless me" if I missed a single friggin' meeting ... God "allowing" horrible things to happen to my family if I didn't witness more .... Losing "eternal rewards" if I didn't obey leadership better.... Getting possessed by devil spirits if I looked around on the internet.... Losing my life or causing my husband to lose his if I continued to be disobedient. <_<
Yeah.... that's a LOVING god... NOT! My own flesh and blood father doesn't require me to jump through half the hoops TWI's god does.
True free will could only come about once the fear of being wrong is eliminated.
:eusa_clap:
Leaving TWI is the best way I know to get rid of that fear, but to do that one has to first get over the fear of leaving TWI. It's hard. It's very hard to do once a person has been beaten down about as far as one can get. :(
Didn't vpw teach that you can't go further than you've been taught? If you are only shown two choices, do what the MOG and his Way Corps say, or turn your back on God, what would you pick?
That: you can't go further than what you've been taught subject I believe has been debated here before. But there is world of difference between what one has been taught and what one has learned - as one being taught is not the same as one learning. We all make "free will" choices over and about the things we are being taught and the things we've already been taught, but then we all end up having a whole heck of a lot to say about the things we all have learned.
It seems to me, we allow for one's own free will choice whenever it comes to the things we are taught and what we have been taught, but not for the things we are learning or for the things we have learned, and that is the reason why there are some people out there who insist upon you learning their lesson.
I was another one who didn't. I put up with bad manners, false accusation and confrontation, for that simple reason. But I tried to make sense of it, and magnify the little bit of good. I convinced myself well enough that I stayed in the Gulag through quite a few of my adult years.
Yeah.... that's a LOVING god... NOT! My own flesh and blood father doesn't require me to jump through half the hoops TWI's god does. [/color]
Thanks, Belle for your sweet post!
My own flesh and blood father even took me back and forgave everything... in fact, he never even held what I did against me! What does that say for fatherly love??
While there at the root locale, the family is kicked out due to a disobedient child who is "disobeying" with the leadership's kid.
...
JavaJane,
Without any facts of this particular situation, I would say, that twi didn't have much choice here. But you are well aware of what happened so what would you estimate the correct approach should have been? How could they have done it better, in this case?
Without any facts of this particular situation, I would say, that twi didn't have much choice here. But you are well aware of what happened so what would you estimate the correct approach should have been? How could they have done it better, in this case?
They could do better by doing what you just said. Get the facts. Then make a decision.
Of course I have no evidence to support that they care about facts. Just lawyers.
True free will could only come about once the fear of being wrong is eliminated.
Ahhh nope. ... The fear of being wrong is eliminated? We *always* have a 'fear of being wrong'. Every one of us. That's why we always (hopefully) think about the choices we do have before us, and hope that we don't make the wrong choice when we decide.
Free will is still there nonetheless.
Wordwolf,
There is a distinct difference between 'coersion' and 'manipulation'. What you are talking about is manipulation.
What is the difference between coercion and manipulation.
It is apparent that the leadership in twi does not manifest the love of God to their people. They are doing something to them. What is happening? Because this free will argument one of their weapons.
at the moment, far as I care, you can hang twi's version of free will up with the Law of Believing. Just another tool for condemnation. It right in their teachings.
Without any facts of this particular situation, I would say, that twi didn't have much choice here. But you are well aware of what happened so what would you estimate the correct approach should have been? How could they have done it better, in this case?
By "disobeying" WITH the leadership's kid, I meant that they BOTH were involved in said disobedience. In this case, why weren't BOTH sets of parents dealth with? Instead, only one set of parents was asked to leave.
As for the details other than this, I don't feel it my place to state as they involve my family members personally, and I don't want their names being drug into this.
Oldies, I do appreciate your posts. Really, I do. It takes guts to speak your mind like you do, and I enjoy it! You make people think, and that is always a good thing!
Garth, in the context of TWI, especially the TWI under craig & rosie, it is an accurate statement, imo.
Being wrong in that situation could cost you your soul and the "hand of protection" from God.
Maybe another way of stating it is that the only way we could truly have free will is if there was no fear of condemnation or consequences for mistakes we have made...
TWI argues that bad things happened to Joseph (son of Israel) because of by his free will choice he made bad decisions that got himself into trouble.
They really make free will a bad thing. That's why you need leadership. To do the work of the holy spirit.
I have actually heard it taught that "unchecked free will only leads to evil." This was taught at one of the last fellowships I attended. Scared the pooooop out of me.
I have actually heard it taught that "unchecked free will only leads to evil." This was taught at one of the last fellowships I attended. Scared the pooooop out of me.
What you mean to say is, by your free will, you let yourself get scared, which is negative believing, so God took his hand of protection off your sphincter, and you released your bowels.
What you mean to say is, by your free will, you let yourself get scared, which is negative believing, so God took his hand of protection off your sphincter, and you released your bowels.
Oldies has the thought that wholesale dumping of pfal et al down the crapper because those who produced it were so jaded is some form of "victim entitlement".
Thinks it is unfair to "the product".
or to vic when he was "standing" in his "greatness".
Oldies has the thought that wholesale dumping of pfal et al down the crapper because those who produced it were so jaded is some form of "victim entitlement".
Thinks it is unfair to "the product".
or to vic when he was "standing" in his "greatness".
I know, it doesn't make sense..
I can see where he's coming from because I've been there. I don't think the whole book should be thrown out - not when you can sell it on eBay and make fat bank!
j/k, Oldies. You're all right with me!
What is the difference between coercion and manipulation.
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Belle
(((((JavaJane)))))
I"m sooo sorry!! You're absolutely correct that some of us did have that figurative gun held to our heads. Absolutely! When it's death, hell and damnation or doing what the leadership of TWI told us to do, there really isn't much of a choice.... not from our perspective and reality at that time. I'm afraid you're going to have some folks on here most likely retort with some harsh words as they think we should have just left, but they don't have much compassion and they absolutely have no idea how intense the pressure and how powerful the threats were for those of us who experienced it.
You said earlier:
It makes perfect sense and is bang on accurate, I think!
That's what I started saying the last few years I was involved, "My own Daddy treats me better than you're telling me God is going to treat me if I don't do what you say." All the threats of God removing his "hand of protection" ... God not spitting on my direction if I didn't give more $$ to them .... God not being able to "bless me" if I missed a single friggin' meeting ... God "allowing" horrible things to happen to my family if I didn't witness more .... Losing "eternal rewards" if I didn't obey leadership better.... Getting possessed by devil spirits if I looked around on the internet.... Losing my life or causing my husband to lose his if I continued to be disobedient. <_<
Yeah.... that's a LOVING god... NOT!
My own flesh and blood father doesn't require me to jump through half the hoops TWI's god does.
Leaving TWI is the best way I know to get rid of that fear, but to do that one has to first get over the fear of leaving TWI. It's hard. It's very hard to do once a person has been beaten down about as far as one can get. :(
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What The Hey
That: you can't go further than what you've been taught subject I believe has been debated here before. But there is world of difference between what one has been taught and what one has learned - as one being taught is not the same as one learning. We all make "free will" choices over and about the things we are being taught and the things we've already been taught, but then we all end up having a whole heck of a lot to say about the things we all have learned.
It seems to me, we allow for one's own free will choice whenever it comes to the things we are taught and what we have been taught, but not for the things we are learning or for the things we have learned, and that is the reason why there are some people out there who insist upon you learning their lesson.
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Ham
Oldies, you HAD a place to go to..
I was another one who didn't. I put up with bad manners, false accusation and confrontation, for that simple reason. But I tried to make sense of it, and magnify the little bit of good. I convinced myself well enough that I stayed in the Gulag through quite a few of my adult years.
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JavaJane
Thanks, Belle for your sweet post!
My own flesh and blood father even took me back and forgave everything... in fact, he never even held what I did against me! What does that say for fatherly love??
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oldiesman
JavaJane,
Without any facts of this particular situation, I would say, that twi didn't have much choice here. But you are well aware of what happened so what would you estimate the correct approach should have been? How could they have done it better, in this case?
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Bolshevik
They could do better by doing what you just said. Get the facts. Then make a decision.
Of course I have no evidence to support that they care about facts. Just lawyers.
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GarthP2000
Ahhh nope. ... The fear of being wrong is eliminated? We *always* have a 'fear of being wrong'. Every one of us. That's why we always (hopefully) think about the choices we do have before us, and hope that we don't make the wrong choice when we decide.
Free will is still there nonetheless.
Wordwolf,
There is a distinct difference between 'coersion' and 'manipulation'. What you are talking about is manipulation.
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Bolshevik
Please continue GarthP2000
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Belle
Garth, in the context of TWI, especially the TWI under craig & rosie, it is an accurate statement, imo.
Being wrong in that situation could cost you your soul and the "hand of protection" from God.
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Bolshevik
What is the difference between coercion and manipulation.
It is apparent that the leadership in twi does not manifest the love of God to their people. They are doing something to them. What is happening? Because this free will argument one of their weapons.
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Bolshevik
at the moment, far as I care, you can hang twi's version of free will up with the Law of Believing. Just another tool for condemnation. It right in their teachings.
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oldiesman
I think you're being unfair.
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Bolshevik
How?
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JavaJane
By "disobeying" WITH the leadership's kid, I meant that they BOTH were involved in said disobedience. In this case, why weren't BOTH sets of parents dealth with? Instead, only one set of parents was asked to leave.
As for the details other than this, I don't feel it my place to state as they involve my family members personally, and I don't want their names being drug into this.
Oldies, I do appreciate your posts. Really, I do. It takes guts to speak your mind like you do, and I enjoy it! You make people think, and that is always a good thing!
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Bolshevik
TWI argues that bad things happened to Joseph (son of Israel) because of by his free will choice he made bad decisions that got himself into trouble.
They really make free will a bad thing. That's why you need leadership. To do the work of the holy spirit.
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JavaJane
Maybe another way of stating it is that the only way we could truly have free will is if there was no fear of condemnation or consequences for mistakes we have made...
I have actually heard it taught that "unchecked free will only leads to evil." This was taught at one of the last fellowships I attended. Scared the pooooop out of me.
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Bolshevik
What you mean to say is, by your free will, you let yourself get scared, which is negative believing, so God took his hand of protection off your sphincter, and you released your bowels.
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WordWolf
Praise God SOME of you had a place to go.
Praise God SOME of you-me included-never faced that level of
manipulation,
coercion,
evil head-games and
general selfish practices where those at the top gained at the expense of the lives of those at the bottom.
Remember, EVERYONE'S EXPERIENCE AT TWI WAS DIFFERENT, AND THEIR OWN.
Not everyone escaped all that,
and not everyone HAD a place to go.
But for the grace of God, you COULD have been where they were-
stuck, with NO ONE IN YOUR FAMILY BELIEVING YOU IF YOU SUFFERED AT TWI HANDS,(which DID happen to some)
and no one to help you if you needed to run from twi in a one hour "bum's rush" when you were
kicked off grounds (which DID happen to some)
or need to run off under cover of night (which a few managed rather than get the "bum's rush".)
So there you would be,
no family or friends speaking to you because they were told you were a spiritual FAILURE
(which DID happen to some), feeling defeated YOURSELF, and having been told you were outside
God's protection until you "came back".
Could you at least feel a little pathos for YOURSELF in that situation?
Don't you think you would have been placed in an unfair situation DESPITE having had the freedom
to make your own decisions?
Don't you think you'd be facing a MISUSE OF POWER by twi's Powers That Be for shoving you in a
corner and being told to conform or be a failure to GAWD ALMIGHTY?
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oldiesman
Praise God it's FRIDAY.
Have a wonderful weekend, one and all.
Until next time. :D
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JavaJane
Bye!
Oldiesman, I'll miss you!
hahahahahahaha!!
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Bolshevik
see ya round Oldies
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Ham
Oldies has the thought that wholesale dumping of pfal et al down the crapper because those who produced it were so jaded is some form of "victim entitlement".
Thinks it is unfair to "the product".
or to vic when he was "standing" in his "greatness".
I know, it doesn't make sense..
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JavaJane
I can see where he's coming from because I've been there. I don't think the whole book should be thrown out - not when you can sell it on eBay and make fat bank!
j/k, Oldies. You're all right with me!
I want to know the answer to this question, too!
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Ham
One definition of coercion is government by force. You know.. do it, or die..
manipulation is much more subtle, not so up front.
You can lead a horse to water by salting his oats.. or you can try to drive him to it with a whip.
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