was this just another vp scam or is there and basis too it?
I think lifting up in prayer was basicly saying "Father I am praying for this person." or "I turn this over to you." I can't say it using that term "lifting up" is used in the bible, but it was used by a lot of different groups, not just the way. I have a minister friend who uses that phrase all of the time and he had never even heard of TWI.
Good question. I haven't honestly looked too closely at this.
I think what they were meaning was "lift= relinquish".
Still, is that semantically accurate?
I mean, we denagraded the "Jesus People" because they used the word "rapture" but felt there was nothing wrong with using such expressions as "believer's meeting" and SOGWAP(son of God with all power) even though they are no where to be found in the Bible.
I guess it must have been OK for us to make up stuff that wasn't Biblically founded because we were "The True Household."
Ouch!--- I bit my tongue trying to talk while I had it in my cheek.
Summary.---TWI can make up expressions and words that are not scriptural because they have a special insight to The Word.
All others must subject themselves to scrutany governed by TWI standards.
I think lifting up in prayer was basicly saying "Father I am praying for this person." or "I turn this over to you." I can't say it using that term "lifting up" is used in the bible, but it was used by a lot of different groups, not just the way. I have a minister friend who uses that phrase all of the time and he had never even heard of TWI.
No kidding; I have head it used very often, including in my Methodist background from many years ago. And, checking out the terminology, on th prayer group web page of the Sanlando UMC in Florida, they refer to the group meeting each Tuesday morning, "lifting up all prayer concerns starting at 10 am."
Waysider refers to TWI "denigrading" others for using phrases not found word for word in the Bible, but then doing the same thing. Perhaps a very valid point. But I think use of the phrase itself is just another example of something used often in TWI which by no means started there. I see nothing phony at all with its use.
I always thought it was related to 1 Tim. 2:8 - I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. Also, there's supposedly an Orientalism here about the lifting of your hands is symbolic to letting go of any anger or hostility toward anyone.
Along with John's verse I'll add this one which I have heard mentioned form time to time.
Psalm 141:2 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.
Personally I never use the term too religious sounding for me, and as well if you mean prayer why not just say prayer It makes more sense to me to say will you pray for this rather than will you lift this. We did not always speak clear in a way that others could understand us .
I always thought it was related to 1 Tim. 2:8 - I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. Also, there's supposedly an Orientalism here about the lifting of your hands is symbolic to letting go of any anger or hostility toward anyone.
Not directly related to the thread's subject, BUT related to this post,
anyone ELSE ever notice that vpw made fun of people "lifting up holy hands"
during taped pfal, then discover that the practice was in I Timothy 2:8?
(This happened with him and comments at ROAs about "waiting on the Lord", too.)
========
Oh, and I'm glad coolchef ASKED and others ANSWERED.
I think it's good to look these things over and make evaluations one way or the other.
I needed to go way back to remember using this phrase. I used it because I heard it.
In the verses quoted, hands are being raised - not prayer requests. While in TWI I heard the practice of "raising holy hands" mocked as being in the same vein as rolling on the floor. Can't be too emotional when it comes to Gawd, dontcha know.
I guess that my understanding of the use of the phrase was that it was a euphemism for saying that a person would pray for someone. In TWI it always seemed to be important to have another way to say something. When I thought about the phrase I figured it was more like putting wings on a prayer request.
Even writing that seems weird. I never thought about the use of the phrase back then. Now that I have thought about it, I'm glad I stopped using it.
1Peter 5:7 "Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you."
that kind of makes it sound like you're supposed to "toss them"... the verses quoted by others talk about lifting 'your hands' ...it seems like if you 'lifted up' your cares and worries they'd be kind of hovering over you... much better to 'toss them aside' I'd think...
For some reason I was always simply opposed to saying "lift" or "lifted". I would always use the word "pray". But I suppose that indicates that I equated one with the other.
As Dooj pointed out the verses mentioned are refering to the lifting of hands not prayers. Waysider also makes a great point that "lifted" could indicate the "relinquishing" of the concerns.
TWI did have a certain degree of its own vocabulary just as any other "specialty" group. Many of the unique terms that it used were not biblical in the sense that they could be documented with a specific verse. Many others were "provable" by verse, like SOGWAP for example. It was and is corny as he!! but it is to a point accurate. The term "lifted" is probably not provable by a verse but a metaphorical argument can be made in its favor.
Personally I never liked either and used them as little as was politically possible.
I haven't a clue what scriptures were used to illustrate this.
It does make sense when you look at it that way.
But, my problem with using terminology like this is that it is exclusive in nature.
Now, someone else pointed out that they have heard the phrase used elsewhere.
That would certainly diminish or even eliminate the exclusive aspect of its usage.
Still, don't you think that we should have been striving to use terms that were more universally understood? (in light of of us being an "outreach" ministry)
I mean, we should have tried to develop a vocabulary that made outsiders feel INcluded, not EXcluded.
The part that REALLY did not make any sense was the idea of a "lift list".
I mean, if you relinquished your concern and anxiety about a particular person or situation yesterday, how come it found its way back into your hands today?
Did your Daddy hand the busted kite back to you when you weren't looking?
Seems like you should lift it once and be rid of it, no?
That's where it seems more appropriate to use the word "pray" than "lift".
Somehow it seems OK to pray about something more than once but kinda weird to give the same thing away time after time.
Deodorant companies have missed a niche market here - if you're gonna raise holy hands, make sure your 'pits are presentable.
I've always liked the phrase "lift". It's part of the jargon used in the church we've been doing some hang time with. The study group we attend prays and there's reference to "lifting" an item in prayer, amongst others.
I think the idea of "casting all my care" on God is sound and will apply itself differently into different circumstances. Some things, there's nothing I can do, no action I can take.
It's not a relinquishment of my interest - it's a way to place my faith. I don't disengage, I engage and in effect, join into a partnership with God, one that recognizes His part.
"Lifiting" something in prayer to God is a good idea, IMO. Like anything it can become a mannerism, done by rote, sort of a religious tic, I guess. Done thoughtfully, it makes sense.
Ah, but they didn't, Socks. Don't you remember, "Raise your (holy) hands if you're 'Sure'?"
Who is "they", Sushi? Socks just got finished talking about the term's use in a church and study group which is (I assume) unrelated to TWI, and it has been pointed out on this thread that TWI hardly invented the term, justr as some other presumably "wayspeak" terms didnt start with TWI.
I think Sushi's referencing the deodorant commercial Lifted Up - raise your hands, raise your hands if you're sure. :) it could definitely be a bookstore item, Ban Roll-on, various spray devices. 'Specially in the warmer climates.
Talking to God out loud in a group setting is an interesting activity. As we all know protocol can be over emphasized. How best to address the Infinite One? Father, Father-God, God, Lord, Lord-God, Lord God Almighty.
Lord Father God Almighty. It sounds like a James Brown hoot, definitely has funky overtones.
"Hnnngh! Maceo, can a man get a beat! Hit me! Lift it! Can I get a beat! Hit me! Can I get a beat! Hit me! Horns!Lift it! Don't be a fool, do it in school! Get on the good foot! Lift it! Good Gawd almighty uh hnnngh!"
No disrespect and all props to the Creator. Praying and lifting all things great or small to Him is a good thing, IMO.
I think Sushi's referencing the deodorant commercial Lifted Up - raise your hands, raise your hands if you're sure. :) it could definitely be a bookstore item, Ban Roll-on, various spray devices. 'Specially in the warmer climates.
Yea, you can tell how old we are by the commercials we remember.
I think it was some religious crap that people didn't leave behind when they joined TWI, and it caught on as a filler phrase or buzz word(s). It irritated the crap out of me - along with people who said "Father" every other word in their prayers. I just wanted to offer those religious Pharisees a big cup of shut the f*** up, ya know...
I did a search of the New Testament to look for examples of prayers. I didn't find any where the term "lift up" was used by the one praying. Jesus didnt us it when he prayed, and I didn't see where Paul or anyone else used it. I don't use it.
That being said, I don't see a a problem with it. Absence of something doesn't necessarily forbid or suggest that it is somehow wrong. I mean, what's the difference in saying let's pray for Johnny and let's lift Johnny up in prayer? I wouldn't get too hung up in the semantics. It only becomes a problem IMO, if it is taught somehow as being a necessary form of prayer; ie, you must say "lift up" when you pray. That would be wrong.
My brothers, (and I assume the splinter group they associate with) call God "Daddy" when they pray. Not Father, not God, not Lord, but "Daddy". Where did that come from? My guess is that some wannabe research guru did a "word study" and corelated "father" in one language to "Daddy" in English and voila! a doctrine/dogma is born. For them, this is the accurate or proper way to pray. So with them, God, Father and Lord have vanished, and in prayer and "Daddy" is the only way God is addressed. That seems off to me. In a way I kind of find it repulsive. But that's just me. I suppose God is happy that they are praying.
I hear that some folks call God "Mother" based upon a certain translation or El Shaddai which has it roots in the Hebrew word for "breast". I guess He, er.... She could also be called "Mommy" then?
In Matthew 6 and Luke 11, Jesus gave us a model for prayer in The Lords Prayer, which of course VPW/TWI crapped all over. I think it is a pretty good model. There are other examples of prayer in the Bible that we that call upon for understanding. I doubt that there is only one "right way".
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Keith
I think lifting up in prayer was basicly saying "Father I am praying for this person." or "I turn this over to you." I can't say it using that term "lifting up" is used in the bible, but it was used by a lot of different groups, not just the way. I have a minister friend who uses that phrase all of the time and he had never even heard of TWI.
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coolchef
keith
thanks for your reply
i stand to be corrected,
but with no biblical back up i think it's as phony as the corn field in beautiful ohio
which by the way i found not so pretty at all
but i perhaps visited the wrong place
i.e.
new notville
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waysider
CC
Good question. I haven't honestly looked too closely at this.
I think what they were meaning was "lift= relinquish".
Still, is that semantically accurate?
I mean, we denagraded the "Jesus People" because they used the word "rapture" but felt there was nothing wrong with using such expressions as "believer's meeting" and SOGWAP(son of God with all power) even though they are no where to be found in the Bible.
I guess it must have been OK for us to make up stuff that wasn't Biblically founded because we were "The True Household."
Ouch!--- I bit my tongue trying to talk while I had it in my cheek.
Summary.---TWI can make up expressions and words that are not scriptural because they have a special insight to The Word.
All others must subject themselves to scrutany governed by TWI standards.
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Lifted Up
No kidding; I have head it used very often, including in my Methodist background from many years ago. And, checking out the terminology, on th prayer group web page of the Sanlando UMC in Florida, they refer to the group meeting each Tuesday morning, "lifting up all prayer concerns starting at 10 am."
Waysider refers to TWI "denigrading" others for using phrases not found word for word in the Bible, but then doing the same thing. Perhaps a very valid point. But I think use of the phrase itself is just another example of something used often in TWI which by no means started there. I see nothing phony at all with its use.
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johniam
I always thought it was related to 1 Tim. 2:8 - I will therefore that men pray everywhere, lifting up holy hands, without wrath and doubting. Also, there's supposedly an Orientalism here about the lifting of your hands is symbolic to letting go of any anger or hostility toward anyone.
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Lifted Up
Isnt that the same reasoning presumably used in TWI to label something as unholy if it is not found word for word in the scriptures?
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WhiteDove
Along with John's verse I'll add this one which I have heard mentioned form time to time.
Psalm 141:2 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)
Public Domain
Let my prayer be set forth before thee as incense; and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice.
Personally I never use the term too religious sounding for me, and as well if you mean prayer why not just say prayer It makes more sense to me to say will you pray for this rather than will you lift this. We did not always speak clear in a way that others could understand us .
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WordWolf
Not directly related to the thread's subject, BUT related to this post,
anyone ELSE ever notice that vpw made fun of people "lifting up holy hands"
during taped pfal, then discover that the practice was in I Timothy 2:8?
(This happened with him and comments at ROAs about "waiting on the Lord", too.)
========
Oh, and I'm glad coolchef ASKED and others ANSWERED.
I think it's good to look these things over and make evaluations one way or the other.
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doojable
I needed to go way back to remember using this phrase. I used it because I heard it.
In the verses quoted, hands are being raised - not prayer requests. While in TWI I heard the practice of "raising holy hands" mocked as being in the same vein as rolling on the floor. Can't be too emotional when it comes to Gawd, dontcha know.
I guess that my understanding of the use of the phrase was that it was a euphemism for saying that a person would pray for someone. In TWI it always seemed to be important to have another way to say something. When I thought about the phrase I figured it was more like putting wings on a prayer request.
Even writing that seems weird. I never thought about the use of the phrase back then. Now that I have thought about it, I'm glad I stopped using it.
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oldiesman
1Peter 5:7 "Casting all your care upon him; for he careth for you."
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Tom Strange
that kind of makes it sound like you're supposed to "toss them"... the verses quoted by others talk about lifting 'your hands' ...it seems like if you 'lifted up' your cares and worries they'd be kind of hovering over you... much better to 'toss them aside' I'd think...
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Eyesopen
For some reason I was always simply opposed to saying "lift" or "lifted". I would always use the word "pray". But I suppose that indicates that I equated one with the other.
As Dooj pointed out the verses mentioned are refering to the lifting of hands not prayers. Waysider also makes a great point that "lifted" could indicate the "relinquishing" of the concerns.
TWI did have a certain degree of its own vocabulary just as any other "specialty" group. Many of the unique terms that it used were not biblical in the sense that they could be documented with a specific verse. Many others were "provable" by verse, like SOGWAP for example. It was and is corny as he!! but it is to a point accurate. The term "lifted" is probably not provable by a verse but a metaphorical argument can be made in its favor.
Personally I never liked either and used them as little as was politically possible.
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waysider
Hmmmm!
I forgot about this thread.
Here's how it was explained to me "way back when".
(Please bare in mind that there was a dinosaur roaring in the background at the time I heard this so I may not have it completely accurate.)
-----------------------------------------------------
As a child, you go to your Daddy with a broken kite.
The kite's damage is weighing heavily on your mind.
Therefore, you "lift" the kite up (since Daddy is much bigger than you) and "relinquish" it to him so he can fix it.
As you do so, your concern and anxiety melt away because you are confident Daddy knows exactly what to do to fix that busted kite.
The remedy is now in his hands and the burden of concern has been "lifted" from you.
(and transfered to Daddy.)
---------------------------------------------------------------
I haven't a clue what scriptures were used to illustrate this.
It does make sense when you look at it that way.
But, my problem with using terminology like this is that it is exclusive in nature.
Now, someone else pointed out that they have heard the phrase used elsewhere.
That would certainly diminish or even eliminate the exclusive aspect of its usage.
Still, don't you think that we should have been striving to use terms that were more universally understood? (in light of of us being an "outreach" ministry)
I mean, we should have tried to develop a vocabulary that made outsiders feel INcluded, not EXcluded.
The part that REALLY did not make any sense was the idea of a "lift list".
I mean, if you relinquished your concern and anxiety about a particular person or situation yesterday, how come it found its way back into your hands today?
Did your Daddy hand the busted kite back to you when you weren't looking?
Seems like you should lift it once and be rid of it, no?
That's where it seems more appropriate to use the word "pray" than "lift".
Somehow it seems OK to pray about something more than once but kinda weird to give the same thing away time after time.
Just my take on it.
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TheInvisibleDan
"Lift up"...."cast away"...which all reminds me - it's "garbage night".
:)
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socks
Deodorant companies have missed a niche market here - if you're gonna raise holy hands, make sure your 'pits are presentable.
I've always liked the phrase "lift". It's part of the jargon used in the church we've been doing some hang time with. The study group we attend prays and there's reference to "lifting" an item in prayer, amongst others.
I think the idea of "casting all my care" on God is sound and will apply itself differently into different circumstances. Some things, there's nothing I can do, no action I can take.
It's not a relinquishment of my interest - it's a way to place my faith. I don't disengage, I engage and in effect, join into a partnership with God, one that recognizes His part.
"Lifiting" something in prayer to God is a good idea, IMO. Like anything it can become a mannerism, done by rote, sort of a religious tic, I guess. Done thoughtfully, it makes sense.
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Sushi
Ah, but they didn't, Socks. Don't you remember, "Raise your (holy) hands if you're 'Sure'?"
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Lifted Up
Who is "they", Sushi? Socks just got finished talking about the term's use in a church and study group which is (I assume) unrelated to TWI, and it has been pointed out on this thread that TWI hardly invented the term, justr as some other presumably "wayspeak" terms didnt start with TWI.
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Lifted Up
Of course you aren't going to like the term. If there is one thing I'm sure sharks are afraid of, it's being "lifted up" out of the water!
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socks
I think Sushi's referencing the deodorant commercial Lifted Up - raise your hands, raise your hands if you're sure. :) it could definitely be a bookstore item, Ban Roll-on, various spray devices. 'Specially in the warmer climates.
Talking to God out loud in a group setting is an interesting activity. As we all know protocol can be over emphasized. How best to address the Infinite One? Father, Father-God, God, Lord, Lord-God, Lord God Almighty.
Lord Father God Almighty. It sounds like a James Brown hoot, definitely has funky overtones.
"Hnnngh! Maceo, can a man get a beat! Hit me! Lift it! Can I get a beat! Hit me! Can I get a beat! Hit me! Horns! Lift it! Don't be a fool, do it in school! Get on the good foot! Lift it! Good Gawd almighty uh hnnngh!"
No disrespect and all props to the Creator. Praying and lifting all things great or small to Him is a good thing, IMO.
Lift it! Hit me! Hnnng!!!
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Lifted Up
Yea, you can tell how old we are by the commercials we remember.
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krys
I think of this - (paraphrased)
I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills from whence cometh my help....my help cometh from the lord......
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socks
Nice, krysilis. :) The "high" places, of the Lord. Lifting up our eyes, thoughts, where we look for help, that's a lot of the perspective.
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ChasUFarley
I think it was some religious crap that people didn't leave behind when they joined TWI, and it caught on as a filler phrase or buzz word(s). It irritated the crap out of me - along with people who said "Father" every other word in their prayers. I just wanted to offer those religious Pharisees a big cup of shut the f*** up, ya know...
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Goey
I did a search of the New Testament to look for examples of prayers. I didn't find any where the term "lift up" was used by the one praying. Jesus didnt us it when he prayed, and I didn't see where Paul or anyone else used it. I don't use it.
That being said, I don't see a a problem with it. Absence of something doesn't necessarily forbid or suggest that it is somehow wrong. I mean, what's the difference in saying let's pray for Johnny and let's lift Johnny up in prayer? I wouldn't get too hung up in the semantics. It only becomes a problem IMO, if it is taught somehow as being a necessary form of prayer; ie, you must say "lift up" when you pray. That would be wrong.
My brothers, (and I assume the splinter group they associate with) call God "Daddy" when they pray. Not Father, not God, not Lord, but "Daddy". Where did that come from? My guess is that some wannabe research guru did a "word study" and corelated "father" in one language to "Daddy" in English and voila! a doctrine/dogma is born. For them, this is the accurate or proper way to pray. So with them, God, Father and Lord have vanished, and in prayer and "Daddy" is the only way God is addressed. That seems off to me. In a way I kind of find it repulsive. But that's just me. I suppose God is happy that they are praying.
I hear that some folks call God "Mother" based upon a certain translation or El Shaddai which has it roots in the Hebrew word for "breast". I guess He, er.... She could also be called "Mommy" then?
In Matthew 6 and Luke 11, Jesus gave us a model for prayer in The Lords Prayer, which of course VPW/TWI crapped all over. I think it is a pretty good model. There are other examples of prayer in the Bible that we that call upon for understanding. I doubt that there is only one "right way".
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