Even then, many of us had the most anal, obsessive, STUPID and sadistic leadership that one could ever wish for. Even in the EARLY 1970's.
Engine.. just to let you know, I think you were one of the finest examples of what "leadership" were back then. When I made this comment, you were the LAST person on my mind.
Mr. H, when I first read your post, I thought you had multiple personalities. It looked to me like you were quoting yourself and attributing it to Engine... Whew! I'm glad I mis-understood that one. :)-->
This is cool. You wrote:" But really, to me, that is refreshing. Maybe not as bad as I first thought.. finally, one of the Waybots is showing perhaps a little originality, and perhaps a little annoyance. Perhaps they have a few more human qualities left after all."
The glass is half FULL! I applaud this positive approach.
***
You wrote in an earlier post: "For the life of me, I just can't see how or why anybody would want to go back- even to "da good old days". Even then, many of us had the most anal, obsessive, STUPID and sadistic leadership that one could ever wish for. Even in the EARLY 1970's."
I think that MOST of the above came in the 80's.
Who's engine? I'm glad to see you are bringing up more positives here.
***
You wrote, addressing me: "Hey, I am willing to even concede, maybe that's even what God's telling YOU to do. Not me. I find myself in my own personal God-given 'training course'."
Actually, it's been a while since I said this, but it's only the OLGs (Older Leader-type Grads) that I have any reasonable expectation of hearing what I am proposing. People who once DID believe that Dr was getting an abundance of 2000 year unique revelations are pretty much the only ones who seem to be able to un-do all that they got talked out of since then.
In the 70's many believed that PFAL was given by revelation but didn't have the theological wherewithal to see that that meant God-breathed, just like the original scriptures. I was rarely in this camp, though. I resisted it. I got talked out of it very early, but many held onto it longer, until they go talked out of it.
It's the OLGs that saw things work so well that seem to me to be the most able to hear me. I want to be wrong on this, though, because most upper level OLGs were the MOST talked out of it. The closer an OLG was to Dr, the more intense the adversary's campaign to talk the out of it was. This is why a prophet is not without honor except in his own home town. Those closest to the prophet are always the most convinced by the adversary that the prophet is a fake. They see his sin and shortcomings close-up, and these things are most amplified and exaggerated to them by the adversary.
***
You wrote: "I do not have the time in life to ignore what God would have me to do, and go back to endless rework "da accuracy" of PFAL. I have taken what good I can get from PFAL, and have moved on."
Now wait a minute! You have lots of time for posting, don't you? I think if you changed some attitudes, even just a little, and spent some of your postig time in PFAL, you the good you could get from PFAL could vastly increase!
***
You wrote: "And I would not mandate my course in life to anybody. Anybody who knows me would readily admit that it just would not fit anybody else, or very few.. __ Reminds me of "God told me to tell you.." maybe He's just telling YOU."
From what I can see it's not ME telling anyone anything. I'm just strongly pointing out that our teacher told us that God told him for us to master PFAL.
I agree that very few can hear this...at this time. After the first wave of OLGs (delightfully augmented by any nonOLGS who so desire) starts on this exciting adventure in learning, then the whole scene can drastically change.
You wrote: "Some of you folks are just something. __ You complain about everything, now the Family Tables? __ Is there anything you don't complain about?"
I agree with your distancing yourself from the complaints. I'm glad we had that fling in communication, and I think John Brown should be congratulated for the attempt he made.
There is one thing where the complaints did cease here over, and I think that the GreaseSpotters involved should be congratulated for that too. I'm talking about last year when Raf's website was explained to be NOT an open Free Speech discussion forum, but a Focused Speech discussion forum. They seemed to accept that and not complain. Maybe they'll eventually see here that after JB's noble experiment ended and TWI went back to a Focused Speech format that we should be happy the glass is half full and complain less about the empty half.
"Maybe they think you're wrong about what those instructions mean.
"Maybe they think your concept of the word "master" is wrong."
Most will not even discuss what those instructions mean. They make their determination without paying much attention to what I think they mean. That's understandable, because who am I anyway? But they seem to make no effort to find out what Dr himself meant when he used that word "master."
We were taught in very easy to understand terms about previous usage of words. The concept of doing a word study is valid for secular authors too. No one has to believe that Dr's PFAL writings were God-breathed to do a word study in how he used that word "master" in previous settings. Doing so would bring out what he meant better in issuing those final instructions. But instead of diligently inquiring that way, they shoot from the hip and proceed with their own agenda.
I used the words "sleezy" and "slick" because most of their proVPW and proPFAL stance is aimed at Dr's earlier ministry at best, and they continue to ignore his later years, just as has been reported here often. I'm collecting accounts of VPW distancing by top leadership and their disrespect shown him in his last yeas that GreaseSpotters have posted. Plus there's the opening of the early '84 tape "The Seven Characteristics of a Faithful Steward" where Dr mentions that his teaching was one of the most important of his life at that time, yet they bumped him off the roster at the HQ leaders meeting because they didn't have time.
The epitome of a smoking gun is seen in the history of Dr's very last teaching and how that was allowed by all upper leadership to completely dissappear from sight. There was no respect for Dr when he issued those instructions then. Likewise today, there's not sufficient respect for him (or for his later years) to motivate them to go back and find out WHAT HE MEANT when he used the word "master" so many times in that teaching. My thread "Masters of the Word..." is just that: and attempt to go back and see how Dr used that word to determine what HE meant when he issued those instructions.
I used words "sleezy" and "slick" because MUCH of their proVPW and proPFAL stance is simply to keep and attract a flock that still does have some respect for Dr. Dr is their meal ticket. By posturing themselves as proVPW (when they really aren't) they don't offend the many Joe believer types who still think PFAL is good. The leadership grew bored with Dr (much like the end of your post indicates, WW) but they dare not say that to their flocks and jeopardize the abundant sharing. So they act proVPW and go through a few motions to demonstrate this like puling down a Blue Book now and then. Mastering it, though, in ANY way, according to ANY of the dictionary definitions of "master" is anathema to them.
If they were really so proVPW they'd seek to find out what he meant by master, and until then they'd be doing all that the common idea of master entails: LOTS OF READING.
Some of the reasons I like GreaseSpotters is at least they are honest about rejecting Dr and PFAL, and at least they entertain conversation with someone who disagrees with their rejection of him and PFAL. I don't see the same levels of "sleezy" and "slick" here that I do with many supposedly proPFAL, proVPW splinter groups. Maybe that will change as their broken cisterns run dry. The same way I keep peeking in on TWI with positive expectations, I do with them too. Plus, there are a few splinter groups that I haven't had the chance to do this peeking much or at all.
***
You wrote: "Maybe they think that what pfal says about pfal is true, and it's KEYS, not holy writ."
This is moot. It matters not if they accept PFAL as God-breathed or not. If they posture themselves as proVPW and then don't follow through it's sleazy. How they think of PFAL's spiritual status has no bearing on whether or not they are going to literally do what Dr said to do. Remember that he not only issued his "master" instructions in his Last/Lost teaching, but also in many discourses in those last months. I've documented a few here, such as his last teaching at Emporia, Sound out'84, and other places.
Reconstructing past events is no where near as accurate as printed records or tapes, but some things can be brought out by memory and partial print/tape records, especially if it's multiple witness testimony.
An interesting example of such a reconstruction came to me by e-mail.
Several years ago I posted a small announcement on the www.eph320.com website about finding Dr's last teaching. It was posted there for about a year and I received about 40 inquiries. All of them were unaware of this teaching so I sent them copies. Like in my posting here, I also offered them other e-documents of VPW's material. A number of them developed into pen pals over time. Reproduced below is a letter I received from one such person regarding Dr's last words at Emporia. Your going to see a pattern developing.
**************
Dear Mike,
Yes, we certainly would like more. Hey! My name is MB. I used to be MS and I was in the 15th Corps. I was wondering if you were in the Corps too or if by chance I might have met you? I just wanted you to know I certainly did enjoy reading "The Joy of Service" again.
The year that Dr. Wierwille died, I was in residence at the Way College of Emporia. I will never forget the last 10:30 Fellowship we had with him up in the Ambassador Room.
He said,
Kids, the Word is not going to go over the world
unless you and I take the collaterals and master
them to the point you can teach them at the drop
of a hat to someone you happen to run into.
He said,
Its not in how many classes you run, its in how much
of The Word of God you know and are able to teach
on the spur of the moment.
He said,
You've got to master it. And what I mean by mastering
it is you don't turn to the next page until you completely
understand and have committed to memory the first.
I have never forgotten those words and have shared them many times with believers that I know and with our fellowship that W and I ran for 9 years before we moved to XY. So it really blessed me to read your e-mail and see that someone else really caught on to the greatness of what Dr. was saying. God is great. We love you our brother and we will be anticipating more.
Back to you, WW. You wrote: "Maybe they don't think there were snowstorms that vpw kept encountering, either vision or real. Maybe they think God spoke in the Bible, God speaks to each, but God didn't designate vpw as God's first real spokesman since 99 AD."
It looks like this is indeed how many of them think. But they posture themselves differently to keep and/or attract a flock, or did so ten and twenty years ago. they probably bring up his name less and less now. I don't know for sure because many of my bridges are burned back to them. I'm trying to re-build some.
***
You wrote: "Maybe they don't think pfal is an updated Bible. Maybe they don't think Jesus will be teaching from pfal when he returns. Maybe they don't think Jesus will have the Orange Book in his hand when he returns."
Here I think we are in agreement. They think of PFAL as a nice start, but one that they themselves can improve on. As far as Christ's return (and it's relationship to the orange book), most supposedly proVPW ministers are acting as if it's far off in the distant future. I hear lots of talk about preserving things or ministering to several generations down the line.
The idea expressed in the last page of the Blue book, that it's in the "not-too-distant future" is the farthest thing from them. They probably don't even know that line is in there any more, and if they do, it's devoid of any real meaning to them.
On that page Dr could have just left the word "future" in there and everyone could have easily thought "vague, unknown, maybe in five minutes, but probably very far off, very distant future." But he didn't write it that way. He had a reason for inserting "not-too-distant" in there so that we would NOT think "vague, unknown, maybe in five minutes, but probably very far off, very distant future." But these proVPW people read that page as if that phrase were not there.
The line in the song "The Mystery Train" where Dr narrates: "SOON it will stop!" is drivel to their ears. It means nothing.
These people once believed (and probably still do) that Dr ONCE IN A WHILE got a revelation. For them to ask themselves the following questions of that last Blue Book page could lead to some major changes: "Why DID he put that phrase "not-too-distant" in there? It could have been left out. DID God tell him to include that phrase?" But their thinking is far from this.
They should at least let their followers know that they only think of VPW and PFAL as a springboard or starting point, and now it's THEIR TURN to call the shots, and many of those shots are antiPFAL and antiVPW, and they are shots from the hip, paying little CLOSE attention to PFAL and no regard at all towards the idea of mastering it.
I keep hoping to run into a splinter leader who is serious about mastering the written form of PFAL, or who is serious about even considering it.
***
You wrote; "I hate it when I try to watch a tv show I like, only to discover I end up catching the exact same episode on a repeat each time..."
To tell you the truth, I too would find it boring to re-enter a mode of operation of sitting through endless repetitions of the film class and endless carloads of new signups. It's not the old video, though, that I'm calling people back to. It's the "book and magazine form" of PFAL and with the new tools. The new attitude to meekly mastering PFAL will uncover things that were never seen before, and will refreshingly bring back to life items that have been long forgotten.
I will say this: watching the video once, for the first time 10 or 20 years, can be an exciting adventure, but it gets even better in the books.
I haven't ignored your request for a mail address at familytables. There has been some turmoil on the website with many critics coming in being rude and disruptive. That occurred about the time I intended to make some major changes for the one year anniversary of the site. I put parts of it "under construction". The new stuff coming will be a great improvement.
Can you tell me a bit about yourself. Most request for a mail address have come from people that I know or at least know their names. Who is a region leader in Boston? Who is your Branch Leader? How are you enjoying the current teaching theme?
Bless,
webmaster
Me: I have no idea who my region or Branch leader are. What was said to be rude or disruptive? Very curious.
JB:
I was honest with you and asked you specific questions. You ignored my questions and responded in an arrogant surely manner. You can't possibly think I would grant your request with this sort of behavior, can you?
mail address request DENIED
Me: Oh my. I was honest with you too. What did I say that was "arrogant and surely"? I didn't realise that not knowing my leaders was a deal breaker!
You ignored MY questions and I'm not mad about it at all.
I don't know what I said to upset you.
All I was saying was: you were critisized, so what? As Christians, main stream people are going to give us crap. I welcome it. I'm not bothered by critics. It's the internet. If you want to avoid critics, them cyberspace is going to be a tough place for you.
Please explain why you're so mad at me. I don't get it! Your reply shocked me!
JB: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Who We Are:
We are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ and participate in the fellowships of The Way International. The familytables website is about sharing that common bond. The definition of our ministry is printed in the table of contents in every issue of The Way Magazine. It is reprinted here:
The Way is a fellowship of the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the manifestation of the more abundant life. A follower of The Way is filled with and manifests power from on high, holy spirit, and freely avails himself of fellowship meetings for spiritual nurture and growth. The Way fellowship is cemented together by the Spirit of God with each individual believer being transformed by the renewing of his mind according to the Word of God.
The Way International has a website where you can learn more about this ministry:
This is who the website serves. You are free to look around but a mailing address from this site is reserved for the followers of The Way Int.
Again:
Who is your Way ministry region leader?
Who is your Way ministry branch leader?
Me: Well John I am not a member of this church and I have no idea who my region or branch leaders are. Perhaps you can direct me to them so I can learn more. I looked at the website and didn't see any info on how I join. How do I join?
Now, you have ignored my questions twice. I also asked what I said to upset you. Yet I didn't call you arrogant and surely ;)-->
JB: We have no formal membership, just active participants. If you would like to be contacted by some one in The Way in your area, let me know. Something can be arranged.
Most of our activities revolve around fellowship meetings in homes, and larger meetings every month or two. The familytables website is done by followers for followers. It's not an official function of The Way International. Hence it does not officially represent anything but some of us followers. The site was conceived for young people ages 13 to 29 although many adults have visited as well.
When we stated the website, we had not actually prepared for non-followers to participate on the website, just didn't think about it. Recently some pseudo-Christians and anti-Christians came and began to post messages of animosity toward our Christian kids, the Bible and even promoted homosexuality to the kids using the site's interactive features. It wasn't just critics... it was an attack. I have to sort out who is who. I'm sorry but perhaps you can see my dilemma. I have been forced to become distrusting.
Check out the website below and let me know if you would like to talk to some one in Boston about The Way's fellowships and activities.
Me: Well I have learned about many disrurbing things about The Way and will refrain from being involved. Thanks.
JB:
Old news - very very old 20 year old news. Most of those people didn't look to the Word of God, instead they focused on people. Always a disappointment. Most of those websites have not been updated for years. Some people are still harping about very old history. I am not ignorant of the past. I lived through it. I know what occurred and why.
It's not about people, never was, it's about the Word of God. It's a spiritual battle. Make up your own mind about people who still are bitter 20 years later. Believe what you will but focus on the Word of God, not people. What is your center for truth? The Word of God or people's opinions?
Me: Well when it comes to God my center of truth is The Bible. But when it comes to an orginization made by men, and let's face it that's what churches are, I feel I can speak to people about their experiences. After all I am speaking to you to get the other side of the story and you're giving me your opinion. I can't read the Bible to find out if The Way is the answer to my search for truth.
I am not sure that all of these problems are from what happened 20 years ago. There are several current law suits involving sexual mis conduct and another one about ex members trying to visit their child's grave. Not everything I know was 20 years old.
Plus The Way is just not accessable. Their own website is vague and doesn't include contact info. What is that about? I have questions and can't find answers. That's just odd. Tell those guys to get with the future!
JB: If you have questions There is a snail mail address on The Way's website. The Way is very analog. They have very little presence on line and don't even do a lot of email. Most of their business they take care of via snail mail and phone calls. Also, a lot of information about events is disseminated via its own structure in the form of announcements at meetings.
I forwarded your contact info to our state director, Rev. M**n***n, full time staff South East Region. He will get it to Rev. G******h who is full time staff in the New England Region. How or how fast, I don't know but requests for a local contact person are not unusual.
As to you other comment. "And tell those guys to get with the future! haha." There are some of us who have been saying that for years. However, The Way H.Q. in Ohio is super conservative about spending money on infrastructure. It took several years to get them to put up a website. It is probably done by the magazine staff, where they have editors and artists but not really web-savvy people. I suspect that it is an after-hours volunteer thing as well but I don't know who actually does it.
Old news - very very old 20 year old news. Most of those people didn't look to the Word of God, instead they focused on people. Always a disappointment. Most of those websites have not been updated for years. Some people are still harping about very old history. I am not ignorant of the past. I lived through it. I know what occurred and why.
Old news?????? Yeah, right. -->
Martindale was ousted in September of 2000......and lawsuits (plural) FOLLOWED!!!
Rosie stated in a deposition (2000/2001 ??) that she knew about martindale having sex with other women as early as 1995!!!
I personally know two families who LEFT TWI last fall after 20+ years of involvement!!!
Thanks for sharing that, it was quite educational.
"Recently some pseudo-Christians and anti-Christians came and began to post messages of animosity toward our Christian kids, the Bible and even promoted homosexuality to the kids using the site's interactive features."
Interesting - I don't recall seeing any posts that promoted animosity toward the kids or the Bible. Questions, yes, animosity no. I could have missed it, I suppose, but I was checking the posts pretty regular before he shut it down.
"Old news - very very old 20 year old news. Most of those people didn't look to the Word of God, instead they focused on people"
That is just a blatant lie. What occured with LCM was certainly NOT 20 year old news. Likewise what occured in my own life was not. Hell I've only been out four years now.
"I am not ignorant of the past. I lived through it. I know what occurred and why."
Then why won't he or anyone else explain it to the rest of us. Its not like we haven't asked.
Okay, I am kinda lost on this thread....all of the cut & pastes and quotes and conversation recollections....but I just have to ask one question.
Oldies.....You DO realize that the Family Tables being discussed here is a twi fronted and endorsed internet website? We are NOT discussing the old Family Tables at the rock of ages.
Regarding their monitoring and "closed door policy," you MUST HAVE NOTICED that Harve, et all made sure they had their position re: Dorothea Wierwille posted prominently here on the front page of G-spot. They shoulda/coulda but NEVER woulda put that on THEIR OWN DAMN SITE.
Whew.....I feel better.....thanks for letting me get that off my chest!!! :o-->
So what you are really saying JB is......STOP TALKING ABOUT MARTINDALE AND HIS SEXUAL ASSAULTS ON MARRIED CORPS WOMEN??? And other leaders and lcm-wannabes that were molded in the system.
Geeze...it took twi's lawyers to step in and direct twi's bod and get martindale canned! It's hard NOT to focus on people and see how spiritually inept twi is these days!!!
But JB....if we bring twi's doctrine up front and center, where should we start? I suppose the doctrinal thread would be a good start? How about the bogus debt issue and the damage it has done? Maybe, we should look at "the law of believing?" Well......we've done that a few times too!
Things have NOT changed at twi. Maybe a little more subtle, but nonetheless its only a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.
Stop drinking from twi's cistern of kool-aid. That might help. :D-->
Promoting homosexuality? Animosity? I thought that all of us who posted did so in a respectful manner. Between Abigail, Laleo, Mike and myself, GSers were over there a lot.
I was banned twice. All I did was ask what was allowed on his site, and whether I had permission to start a thread in the Elders Table. (I forget the topic, something about truth and opinion, I think.) Anyway, he said I could, even encouraged it, then deleted my user name. When I re-registered, I was deleted again before I even had a chance to post. I took the hint, subtle as it was. Not that I mind, although I would have liked interacting with current followers, if only to see for myself the transformation in the "ministry." My questions were answered as far as that goes. There's no reason for me to bother visiting again.
I wonder what pleasure he could possibly have in administering a site that is so controlled. If it were left up to him, I had the impression that he would have wecomed some of the older past members. That a grown man would let someone else override that decision is a puzzle to me, but, hey, there's all kinds of people in the world.
Why would gspotters like myself want to continue to challange, or better yet, ASK QUESTIONS AND DEBATE, in the promised land of the prevailing word cyberspace area? I give TWI, NO quarter whatsoever. Their whole organization stands on the blood, sweat, and tears of the tens of thousands of people who wanted to know and serve God the best way they knew how. Everything that they (TWI) have is from the work and money every believer, wow vet, corps grad, EVERYONE put into that ministry for YEARS. And it was HARD!! People sacrificed ALL to "move the word over the world". Most of those people LEFT twi, and have every right to warn prospective followers, current followers, whoever, about this incideous, dead ministry. Whether its on the street,COURT, on the radio, TV, Internet, the truth is THERE. in scripture and in practice.
LCM's era of gestapo leadership ran off more people than they EVER brought to the Word. They totally destroyed everything everyone ever worked for, and what they DO have, is the remnants of the past. They have no new growth, no life, no fruit.
So when John B. or others, gets all nostalgic about the ROA family tables, maybe a time when God had a hand in TWI, or at least grew due to the charisma of excited hippie christians, and try to transpose that onto a controlled, elitist, "focused forum" (whatever that .... THAT means), im callin BULL....!! its the same censored, micro-managed, controlling BS, that makes me even happier i am out of there!! NOTHING has changed, and HERE is an example!!
They TRIED to have an open forum, but like i said before, there is just too much evidence, too many questions, that they cannot defend themselves or let innies hear the truth. They dont have a leg to stand on, so they have to hide in their little "focused forum" like the cowards they are. "whos your branch coor, whos your region coord?", screw you a-hole!! same .... different day at the way!!
Like i said before, current innies deserve each other, and their silly, little website. i hope more come to their senses, so we, who feel the duty to expost TWI, can finally find some peace. That doesnt mean i cant call them on their little retreat back into wayworld.
"Those who insist on maintaining their innocence, long after that innocence has died, turn themselves into monsters." james baldwin
So when John B. or others, gets all nostalgic about the ROA family tables, maybe a time when God had a hand in TWI, or at least grew due to the charisma of excited hippie christians, and try to transpose that onto a controlled, elitist, "focused forum" ............(snip)..............its the same censored, micro-managed, controlling BS, that makes me even happier i am out of there!! NOTHING has changed, and HERE is an example!!
They TRIED to have an open forum, but like i said before, there is just too much evidence, too many questions, that they cannot defend themselves or let innies hear the truth.
Yeah......I would think that even long-standing innies are aware of TWI CENSORSHIP. Of course, they are in denial......else, they'd be ex-followers like us. :)-->
Even if twi's youth post on JB's website for awhile.......it shouldn't take them all that long to realize that TWI LEADERSHIP IS MONITORING THIS SITE AND THEIR COMMUNICATION. And really....... these teenagers are alot smarter than that and posting will stifle. Wouldn't they just rather be online with their friends...... rather than post on an adult-monitored website???
I give TWI, NO quarter whatsoever. Their whole organization stands on the blood, sweat, and tears of the tens of thousands of people who wanted to know and serve God the best way they knew how. Everything that they (TWI) have is from the work and money every believer, wow vet, corps grad, EVERYONE put into that ministry for YEARS. And it was HARD!! People sacrificed ALL to "move the word over the world". Most of those people LEFT twi, and have every right to warn prospective followers, current followers, whoever, about this incideous, dead ministry. Whether its on the street,COURT, on the radio, TV, Internet, the truth is THERE. in scripture and in practice.
Here Here!
LCM's era of gestapo leadership ran off more people than they EVER brought to the Word. They totally destroyed everything everyone ever worked for, and what they DO have, is the remnants of the past. They have no new growth, no life, no fruit.
Where were you thelema, when we were trying to come up with info for the bill board?
Twi is really NOT twi anymore, because everyone who made it twi, is gone.
Great reasons to continue to speak up.
It sure bites to know that the bullies who ran us all off are enjoying the fruits of our decades of labor.....sigh
Ex & Radar, it makes more sense if you just skip over Mike's posts. That's what I do. :D--> (No offense, Mike, but I have ADD and your posts are too long and dont' really add anything to the discussion)
JB does sound rather defensive and he is definitely regurgitating the TWIt spiel they've been taught to say when asked about the corrpution in the group. Didn't they used to say an organization is only as strong as its weakest link? and that PEOPLE is what makes the organization?
In that case, the organization is rotten to the very core and can't possibly help people's lives since they don't teach accurately and certainly don't provide a good example of what they teach. It's funny because I was initially drawn to TWI because I thought they were full of integrity and not a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of group. Boy was I wrong!
"Recently some pseudo-Christians and anti-Christians came and began to post messages of animosity toward our Christian kids, the Bible and even promoted homosexuality to the kids using the site's interactive features."
"Old news - very very old 20 year old news. Most of those people didn't look to the Word of God, instead they focused on people"
"I am not ignorant of the past. I lived through it. I know what occurred and why."
Let's see, what does that mean in English....
*activates twi decoder*
"pseudo-Christians" and "anti-Christians"
"Pseudo-Christians" means "people who aren't current twi memberfollowers."
"messages of animosity" means "messages that weren't rewrites of current HQ tapes".
"promoted homosexuality" means "challenged twi's infallibility practice"
"old news-very very old 20 year old news". Meaning uncertain.
May mean
"they exposed the plagiarism and lies of the organization's founder"
or
"they exposed the rapes and molestations of the organization's founder"
or
"they exposed the rapes, molestations and lies ruined by the organization's
successor, chosen by the organization's founder, from 1985 until a few years ago."
or
"they exposed the conspiracy and lives ruined by the organization's current leader,
in the past decade, who has yet to be indicted."
Unsure which.
"Most of those people didn't look to the Word of God, instead they focused on people"
means
"they didn't look the other way like good wayfers when confronted with accounts of
their spiritual siblings being raped, molested, taken advantage of, treated as
indentured servants, and other acts of malfeasance".
"I am not igorant of the past. I lived through it. I know what occurred and why"
means
"I accept that whatever answers leadership give are true. I refuse to consider evidence
or testimony of any kind that might suggest they are lying or incorrect. I refuse to
consider the idea that leadership might EVER be less than truthful to me.
If I did, they'd destroy my life, and I consider the cost of rebuilding it too great
Forgetting, or refuting, or killing the past, and reaching forth to the future, is a Christian concept, and those who practice those things shouldn't be condemned for it.
Why don't you condemn the Apostle Paul for writing it, and God for authoring it?
What makes you so right, those of you who endlessly focus on past sins of others?
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Belle
Mr. H, when I first read your post, I thought you had multiple personalities. It looked to me like you were quoting yourself and attributing it to Engine... Whew! I'm glad I mis-understood that one.
:)-->
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Ham
Hey, you never know. Maybe that's what I need, five or six of me. Safety in "a multitude of councilors" you know.
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Ham
Might be rough at dinner time. "whadya fellows want tonight"? "Pizza" "chile" "no, no, it's gotta be sardines.."
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Ham
Probably how we got WAP
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Mike
Mr. Hammeroni,
This is cool. You wrote:" But really, to me, that is refreshing. Maybe not as bad as I first thought.. finally, one of the Waybots is showing perhaps a little originality, and perhaps a little annoyance. Perhaps they have a few more human qualities left after all."
The glass is half FULL! I applaud this positive approach.
***
You wrote in an earlier post: "For the life of me, I just can't see how or why anybody would want to go back- even to "da good old days". Even then, many of us had the most anal, obsessive, STUPID and sadistic leadership that one could ever wish for. Even in the EARLY 1970's."
I think that MOST of the above came in the 80's.
Who's engine? I'm glad to see you are bringing up more positives here.
***
You wrote, addressing me: "Hey, I am willing to even concede, maybe that's even what God's telling YOU to do. Not me. I find myself in my own personal God-given 'training course'."
Actually, it's been a while since I said this, but it's only the OLGs (Older Leader-type Grads) that I have any reasonable expectation of hearing what I am proposing. People who once DID believe that Dr was getting an abundance of 2000 year unique revelations are pretty much the only ones who seem to be able to un-do all that they got talked out of since then.
In the 70's many believed that PFAL was given by revelation but didn't have the theological wherewithal to see that that meant God-breathed, just like the original scriptures. I was rarely in this camp, though. I resisted it. I got talked out of it very early, but many held onto it longer, until they go talked out of it.
It's the OLGs that saw things work so well that seem to me to be the most able to hear me. I want to be wrong on this, though, because most upper level OLGs were the MOST talked out of it. The closer an OLG was to Dr, the more intense the adversary's campaign to talk the out of it was. This is why a prophet is not without honor except in his own home town. Those closest to the prophet are always the most convinced by the adversary that the prophet is a fake. They see his sin and shortcomings close-up, and these things are most amplified and exaggerated to them by the adversary.
***
You wrote: "I do not have the time in life to ignore what God would have me to do, and go back to endless rework "da accuracy" of PFAL. I have taken what good I can get from PFAL, and have moved on."
Now wait a minute! You have lots of time for posting, don't you? I think if you changed some attitudes, even just a little, and spent some of your postig time in PFAL, you the good you could get from PFAL could vastly increase!
***
You wrote: "And I would not mandate my course in life to anybody. Anybody who knows me would readily admit that it just would not fit anybody else, or very few.. __ Reminds me of "God told me to tell you.." maybe He's just telling YOU."
From what I can see it's not ME telling anyone anything. I'm just strongly pointing out that our teacher told us that God told him for us to master PFAL.
I agree that very few can hear this...at this time. After the first wave of OLGs (delightfully augmented by any nonOLGS who so desire) starts on this exciting adventure in learning, then the whole scene can drastically change.
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Mike
oldiesman,
You wrote: "Some of you folks are just something. __ You complain about everything, now the Family Tables? __ Is there anything you don't complain about?"
I agree with your distancing yourself from the complaints. I'm glad we had that fling in communication, and I think John Brown should be congratulated for the attempt he made.
There is one thing where the complaints did cease here over, and I think that the GreaseSpotters involved should be congratulated for that too. I'm talking about last year when Raf's website was explained to be NOT an open Free Speech discussion forum, but a Focused Speech discussion forum. They seemed to accept that and not complain. Maybe they'll eventually see here that after JB's noble experiment ended and TWI went back to a Focused Speech format that we should be happy the glass is half full and complain less about the empty half.
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Mike
WordWolf,
You wrote:
"Maybe they think you're wrong about what those instructions mean.
"Maybe they think your concept of the word "master" is wrong."
Most will not even discuss what those instructions mean. They make their determination without paying much attention to what I think they mean. That's understandable, because who am I anyway? But they seem to make no effort to find out what Dr himself meant when he used that word "master."
We were taught in very easy to understand terms about previous usage of words. The concept of doing a word study is valid for secular authors too. No one has to believe that Dr's PFAL writings were God-breathed to do a word study in how he used that word "master" in previous settings. Doing so would bring out what he meant better in issuing those final instructions. But instead of diligently inquiring that way, they shoot from the hip and proceed with their own agenda.
I used the words "sleezy" and "slick" because most of their proVPW and proPFAL stance is aimed at Dr's earlier ministry at best, and they continue to ignore his later years, just as has been reported here often. I'm collecting accounts of VPW distancing by top leadership and their disrespect shown him in his last yeas that GreaseSpotters have posted. Plus there's the opening of the early '84 tape "The Seven Characteristics of a Faithful Steward" where Dr mentions that his teaching was one of the most important of his life at that time, yet they bumped him off the roster at the HQ leaders meeting because they didn't have time.
The epitome of a smoking gun is seen in the history of Dr's very last teaching and how that was allowed by all upper leadership to completely dissappear from sight. There was no respect for Dr when he issued those instructions then. Likewise today, there's not sufficient respect for him (or for his later years) to motivate them to go back and find out WHAT HE MEANT when he used the word "master" so many times in that teaching. My thread "Masters of the Word..." is just that: and attempt to go back and see how Dr used that word to determine what HE meant when he issued those instructions.
I used words "sleezy" and "slick" because MUCH of their proVPW and proPFAL stance is simply to keep and attract a flock that still does have some respect for Dr. Dr is their meal ticket. By posturing themselves as proVPW (when they really aren't) they don't offend the many Joe believer types who still think PFAL is good. The leadership grew bored with Dr (much like the end of your post indicates, WW) but they dare not say that to their flocks and jeopardize the abundant sharing. So they act proVPW and go through a few motions to demonstrate this like puling down a Blue Book now and then. Mastering it, though, in ANY way, according to ANY of the dictionary definitions of "master" is anathema to them.
If they were really so proVPW they'd seek to find out what he meant by master, and until then they'd be doing all that the common idea of master entails: LOTS OF READING.
Some of the reasons I like GreaseSpotters is at least they are honest about rejecting Dr and PFAL, and at least they entertain conversation with someone who disagrees with their rejection of him and PFAL. I don't see the same levels of "sleezy" and "slick" here that I do with many supposedly proPFAL, proVPW splinter groups. Maybe that will change as their broken cisterns run dry. The same way I keep peeking in on TWI with positive expectations, I do with them too. Plus, there are a few splinter groups that I haven't had the chance to do this peeking much or at all.
***
You wrote: "Maybe they think that what pfal says about pfal is true, and it's KEYS, not holy writ."
This is moot. It matters not if they accept PFAL as God-breathed or not. If they posture themselves as proVPW and then don't follow through it's sleazy. How they think of PFAL's spiritual status has no bearing on whether or not they are going to literally do what Dr said to do. Remember that he not only issued his "master" instructions in his Last/Lost teaching, but also in many discourses in those last months. I've documented a few here, such as his last teaching at Emporia, Sound out'84, and other places.
Here's the Emporia account:
******************************************************
Reconstructing past events is no where near as accurate as printed records or tapes, but some things can be brought out by memory and partial print/tape records, especially if it's multiple witness testimony.
An interesting example of such a reconstruction came to me by e-mail.
Several years ago I posted a small announcement on the www.eph320.com website about finding Dr's last teaching. It was posted there for about a year and I received about 40 inquiries. All of them were unaware of this teaching so I sent them copies. Like in my posting here, I also offered them other e-documents of VPW's material. A number of them developed into pen pals over time. Reproduced below is a letter I received from one such person regarding Dr's last words at Emporia. Your going to see a pattern developing.
**************
Dear Mike,
Yes, we certainly would like more. Hey! My name is MB. I used to be MS and I was in the 15th Corps. I was wondering if you were in the Corps too or if by chance I might have met you? I just wanted you to know I certainly did enjoy reading "The Joy of Service" again.
The year that Dr. Wierwille died, I was in residence at the Way College of Emporia. I will never forget the last 10:30 Fellowship we had with him up in the Ambassador Room.
He said,
Kids, the Word is not going to go over the world
unless you and I take the collaterals and master
them to the point you can teach them at the drop
of a hat to someone you happen to run into.
He said,
Its not in how many classes you run, its in how much
of The Word of God you know and are able to teach
on the spur of the moment.
He said,
You've got to master it. And what I mean by mastering
it is you don't turn to the next page until you completely
understand and have committed to memory the first.
I have never forgotten those words and have shared them many times with believers that I know and with our fellowship that W and I ran for 9 years before we moved to XY. So it really blessed me to read your e-mail and see that someone else really caught on to the greatness of what Dr. was saying. God is great. We love you our brother and we will be anticipating more.
God Bless You,
MB
******************************************************
Back to you, WW. You wrote: "Maybe they don't think there were snowstorms that vpw kept encountering, either vision or real. Maybe they think God spoke in the Bible, God speaks to each, but God didn't designate vpw as God's first real spokesman since 99 AD."
It looks like this is indeed how many of them think. But they posture themselves differently to keep and/or attract a flock, or did so ten and twenty years ago. they probably bring up his name less and less now. I don't know for sure because many of my bridges are burned back to them. I'm trying to re-build some.
***
You wrote: "Maybe they don't think pfal is an updated Bible. Maybe they don't think Jesus will be teaching from pfal when he returns. Maybe they don't think Jesus will have the Orange Book in his hand when he returns."
Here I think we are in agreement. They think of PFAL as a nice start, but one that they themselves can improve on. As far as Christ's return (and it's relationship to the orange book), most supposedly proVPW ministers are acting as if it's far off in the distant future. I hear lots of talk about preserving things or ministering to several generations down the line.
The idea expressed in the last page of the Blue book, that it's in the "not-too-distant future" is the farthest thing from them. They probably don't even know that line is in there any more, and if they do, it's devoid of any real meaning to them.
On that page Dr could have just left the word "future" in there and everyone could have easily thought "vague, unknown, maybe in five minutes, but probably very far off, very distant future." But he didn't write it that way. He had a reason for inserting "not-too-distant" in there so that we would NOT think "vague, unknown, maybe in five minutes, but probably very far off, very distant future." But these proVPW people read that page as if that phrase were not there.
The line in the song "The Mystery Train" where Dr narrates: "SOON it will stop!" is drivel to their ears. It means nothing.
These people once believed (and probably still do) that Dr ONCE IN A WHILE got a revelation. For them to ask themselves the following questions of that last Blue Book page could lead to some major changes: "Why DID he put that phrase "not-too-distant" in there? It could have been left out. DID God tell him to include that phrase?" But their thinking is far from this.
They should at least let their followers know that they only think of VPW and PFAL as a springboard or starting point, and now it's THEIR TURN to call the shots, and many of those shots are antiPFAL and antiVPW, and they are shots from the hip, paying little CLOSE attention to PFAL and no regard at all towards the idea of mastering it.
I keep hoping to run into a splinter leader who is serious about mastering the written form of PFAL, or who is serious about even considering it.
***
You wrote; "I hate it when I try to watch a tv show I like, only to discover I end up catching the exact same episode on a repeat each time..."
To tell you the truth, I too would find it boring to re-enter a mode of operation of sitting through endless repetitions of the film class and endless carloads of new signups. It's not the old video, though, that I'm calling people back to. It's the "book and magazine form" of PFAL and with the new tools. The new attitude to meekly mastering PFAL will uncover things that were never seen before, and will refreshingly bring back to life items that have been long forgotten.
I will say this: watching the video once, for the first time 10 or 20 years, can be an exciting adventure, but it gets even better in the books.
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Georgio Jessio
Ok here's my conversation with JB:
JB:
I haven't ignored your request for a mail address at familytables. There has been some turmoil on the website with many critics coming in being rude and disruptive. That occurred about the time I intended to make some major changes for the one year anniversary of the site. I put parts of it "under construction". The new stuff coming will be a great improvement.
Can you tell me a bit about yourself. Most request for a mail address have come from people that I know or at least know their names. Who is a region leader in Boston? Who is your Branch Leader? How are you enjoying the current teaching theme?
Bless,
webmaster
Me: I have no idea who my region or Branch leader are. What was said to be rude or disruptive? Very curious.
JB:
I was honest with you and asked you specific questions. You ignored my questions and responded in an arrogant surely manner. You can't possibly think I would grant your request with this sort of behavior, can you?
mail address request DENIED
Me: Oh my. I was honest with you too. What did I say that was "arrogant and surely"? I didn't realise that not knowing my leaders was a deal breaker!
You ignored MY questions and I'm not mad about it at all.
I don't know what I said to upset you.
All I was saying was: you were critisized, so what? As Christians, main stream people are going to give us crap. I welcome it. I'm not bothered by critics. It's the internet. If you want to avoid critics, them cyberspace is going to be a tough place for you.
Please explain why you're so mad at me. I don't get it! Your reply shocked me!
JB: Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ)
Who We Are:
We are followers of the Lord Jesus Christ and participate in the fellowships of The Way International. The familytables website is about sharing that common bond. The definition of our ministry is printed in the table of contents in every issue of The Way Magazine. It is reprinted here:
The Way is a fellowship of the followers of the Lord Jesus Christ for the manifestation of the more abundant life. A follower of The Way is filled with and manifests power from on high, holy spirit, and freely avails himself of fellowship meetings for spiritual nurture and growth. The Way fellowship is cemented together by the Spirit of God with each individual believer being transformed by the renewing of his mind according to the Word of God.
The Way International has a website where you can learn more about this ministry:
http://www.theway.org
This is who the website serves. You are free to look around but a mailing address from this site is reserved for the followers of The Way Int.
Again:
Who is your Way ministry region leader?
Who is your Way ministry branch leader?
Me: Well John I am not a member of this church and I have no idea who my region or branch leaders are. Perhaps you can direct me to them so I can learn more. I looked at the website and didn't see any info on how I join. How do I join?
Now, you have ignored my questions twice. I also asked what I said to upset you. Yet I didn't call you arrogant and surely
;)-->
JB: We have no formal membership, just active participants. If you would like to be contacted by some one in The Way in your area, let me know. Something can be arranged.
Most of our activities revolve around fellowship meetings in homes, and larger meetings every month or two. The familytables website is done by followers for followers. It's not an official function of The Way International. Hence it does not officially represent anything but some of us followers. The site was conceived for young people ages 13 to 29 although many adults have visited as well.
When we stated the website, we had not actually prepared for non-followers to participate on the website, just didn't think about it. Recently some pseudo-Christians and anti-Christians came and began to post messages of animosity toward our Christian kids, the Bible and even promoted homosexuality to the kids using the site's interactive features. It wasn't just critics... it was an attack. I have to sort out who is who. I'm sorry but perhaps you can see my dilemma. I have been forced to become distrusting.
Check out the website below and let me know if you would like to talk to some one in Boston about The Way's fellowships and activities.
Me: Well I have learned about many disrurbing things about The Way and will refrain from being involved. Thanks.
JB:
Old news - very very old 20 year old news. Most of those people didn't look to the Word of God, instead they focused on people. Always a disappointment. Most of those websites have not been updated for years. Some people are still harping about very old history. I am not ignorant of the past. I lived through it. I know what occurred and why.
It's not about people, never was, it's about the Word of God. It's a spiritual battle. Make up your own mind about people who still are bitter 20 years later. Believe what you will but focus on the Word of God, not people. What is your center for truth? The Word of God or people's opinions?
Me: Well when it comes to God my center of truth is The Bible. But when it comes to an orginization made by men, and let's face it that's what churches are, I feel I can speak to people about their experiences. After all I am speaking to you to get the other side of the story and you're giving me your opinion. I can't read the Bible to find out if The Way is the answer to my search for truth.
I am not sure that all of these problems are from what happened 20 years ago. There are several current law suits involving sexual mis conduct and another one about ex members trying to visit their child's grave. Not everything I know was 20 years old.
Plus The Way is just not accessable. Their own website is vague and doesn't include contact info. What is that about? I have questions and can't find answers. That's just odd. Tell those guys to get with the future!
JB: If you have questions There is a snail mail address on The Way's website. The Way is very analog. They have very little presence on line and don't even do a lot of email. Most of their business they take care of via snail mail and phone calls. Also, a lot of information about events is disseminated via its own structure in the form of announcements at meetings.
I forwarded your contact info to our state director, Rev. M**n***n, full time staff South East Region. He will get it to Rev. G******h who is full time staff in the New England Region. How or how fast, I don't know but requests for a local contact person are not unusual.
As to you other comment. "And tell those guys to get with the future! haha." There are some of us who have been saying that for years. However, The Way H.Q. in Ohio is super conservative about spending money on infrastructure. It took several years to get them to put up a website. It is probably done by the magazine staff, where they have editors and artists but not really web-savvy people. I suspect that it is an after-hours volunteer thing as well but I don't know who actually does it.
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skyrider
Old news?????? Yeah, right.
-->
Martindale was ousted in September of 2000......and lawsuits (plural) FOLLOWED!!!
Rosie stated in a deposition (2000/2001 ??) that she knew about martindale having sex with other women as early as 1995!!!
I personally know two families who LEFT TWI last fall after 20+ years of involvement!!!
Need I say more???
:P-->
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Abigail
Georgio Jessio
Thanks for sharing that, it was quite educational.
"Recently some pseudo-Christians and anti-Christians came and began to post messages of animosity toward our Christian kids, the Bible and even promoted homosexuality to the kids using the site's interactive features."
Interesting - I don't recall seeing any posts that promoted animosity toward the kids or the Bible. Questions, yes, animosity no. I could have missed it, I suppose, but I was checking the posts pretty regular before he shut it down.
"Old news - very very old 20 year old news. Most of those people didn't look to the Word of God, instead they focused on people"
That is just a blatant lie. What occured with LCM was certainly NOT 20 year old news. Likewise what occured in my own life was not. Hell I've only been out four years now.
"I am not ignorant of the past. I lived through it. I know what occurred and why."
Then why won't he or anyone else explain it to the rest of us. Its not like we haven't asked.
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Radar OReilly
Okay, I am kinda lost on this thread....all of the cut & pastes and quotes and conversation recollections....but I just have to ask one question.
Oldies.....You DO realize that the Family Tables being discussed here is a twi fronted and endorsed internet website? We are NOT discussing the old Family Tables at the rock of ages.
Regarding their monitoring and "closed door policy," you MUST HAVE NOTICED that Harve, et all made sure they had their position re: Dorothea Wierwille posted prominently here on the front page of G-spot. They shoulda/coulda but NEVER woulda put that on THEIR OWN DAMN SITE.
Whew.....I feel better.....thanks for letting me get that off my chest!!!
:o-->
ror
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skyrider
And again.....
So what you are really saying JB is......STOP TALKING ABOUT MARTINDALE AND HIS SEXUAL ASSAULTS ON MARRIED CORPS WOMEN??? And other leaders and lcm-wannabes that were molded in the system.
Geeze...it took twi's lawyers to step in and direct twi's bod and get martindale canned! It's hard NOT to focus on people and see how spiritually inept twi is these days!!!
But JB....if we bring twi's doctrine up front and center, where should we start? I suppose the doctrinal thread would be a good start? How about the bogus debt issue and the damage it has done? Maybe, we should look at "the law of believing?" Well......we've done that a few times too!
Things have NOT changed at twi. Maybe a little more subtle, but nonetheless its only a form of godliness but denying the power thereof.
Stop drinking from twi's cistern of kool-aid. That might help.
:D-->
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excathedra
i'm lost too. can anyone post on this site ?
i don't know if i would but just asking....
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dmiller
Excie -- fill out this form completely, and they might approve you for posting on their site.
When I registered, the rc and bc questions were not there at all.
I got dumped from there, same as some others. Was going to try to re-register but -- I cain't do it, since I have no rc or bc!.
:P-->
Whew!!!!!! that was a close one!
:D-->
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Oakspear
Promoting homosexuality? Animosity? I thought that all of us who posted did so in a respectful manner. Between Abigail, Laleo, Mike and myself, GSers were over there a lot.
Simple questions were quickly deleted.
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GrouchoMarxJr
The questions are only simple if you are not trying to hide something...
;)-->
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laleo
I was banned twice. All I did was ask what was allowed on his site, and whether I had permission to start a thread in the Elders Table. (I forget the topic, something about truth and opinion, I think.) Anyway, he said I could, even encouraged it, then deleted my user name. When I re-registered, I was deleted again before I even had a chance to post. I took the hint, subtle as it was. Not that I mind, although I would have liked interacting with current followers, if only to see for myself the transformation in the "ministry." My questions were answered as far as that goes. There's no reason for me to bother visiting again.
I wonder what pleasure he could possibly have in administering a site that is so controlled. If it were left up to him, I had the impression that he would have wecomed some of the older past members. That a grown man would let someone else override that decision is a puzzle to me, but, hey, there's all kinds of people in the world.
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Thelema
Why would gspotters like myself want to continue to challange, or better yet, ASK QUESTIONS AND DEBATE, in the promised land of the prevailing word cyberspace area? I give TWI, NO quarter whatsoever. Their whole organization stands on the blood, sweat, and tears of the tens of thousands of people who wanted to know and serve God the best way they knew how. Everything that they (TWI) have is from the work and money every believer, wow vet, corps grad, EVERYONE put into that ministry for YEARS. And it was HARD!! People sacrificed ALL to "move the word over the world". Most of those people LEFT twi, and have every right to warn prospective followers, current followers, whoever, about this incideous, dead ministry. Whether its on the street,COURT, on the radio, TV, Internet, the truth is THERE. in scripture and in practice.
LCM's era of gestapo leadership ran off more people than they EVER brought to the Word. They totally destroyed everything everyone ever worked for, and what they DO have, is the remnants of the past. They have no new growth, no life, no fruit.
So when John B. or others, gets all nostalgic about the ROA family tables, maybe a time when God had a hand in TWI, or at least grew due to the charisma of excited hippie christians, and try to transpose that onto a controlled, elitist, "focused forum" (whatever that .... THAT means), im callin BULL....!! its the same censored, micro-managed, controlling BS, that makes me even happier i am out of there!! NOTHING has changed, and HERE is an example!!
They TRIED to have an open forum, but like i said before, there is just too much evidence, too many questions, that they cannot defend themselves or let innies hear the truth. They dont have a leg to stand on, so they have to hide in their little "focused forum" like the cowards they are. "whos your branch coor, whos your region coord?", screw you a-hole!! same .... different day at the way!!
Like i said before, current innies deserve each other, and their silly, little website. i hope more come to their senses, so we, who feel the duty to expost TWI, can finally find some peace. That doesnt mean i cant call them on their little retreat back into wayworld.
"Those who insist on maintaining their innocence, long after that innocence has died, turn themselves into monsters." james baldwin
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skyrider
Yeah......I would think that even long-standing innies are aware of TWI CENSORSHIP. Of course, they are in denial......else, they'd be ex-followers like us.
:)-->
Even if twi's youth post on JB's website for awhile.......it shouldn't take them all that long to realize that TWI LEADERSHIP IS MONITORING THIS SITE AND THEIR COMMUNICATION. And really....... these teenagers are alot smarter than that and posting will stifle. Wouldn't they just rather be online with their friends...... rather than post on an adult-monitored website???
Absolutely.
:D-->
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rascal
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Belle
Ex & Radar, it makes more sense if you just skip over Mike's posts. That's what I do.
:D--> (No offense, Mike, but I have ADD and your posts are too long and dont' really add anything to the discussion)
JB does sound rather defensive and he is definitely regurgitating the TWIt spiel they've been taught to say when asked about the corrpution in the group. Didn't they used to say an organization is only as strong as its weakest link? and that PEOPLE is what makes the organization?
In that case, the organization is rotten to the very core and can't possibly help people's lives since they don't teach accurately and certainly don't provide a good example of what they teach. It's funny because I was initially drawn to TWI because I thought they were full of integrity and not a "do as I say, not as I do" kind of group. Boy was I wrong!
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excathedra
thanks dmill
Username: excathedra
Region Coordinator: pawtucket
Branch Coordinator: pawtucket
E-mail address: pawtucket@greasespotcafe.com
Password: greasespot
Confirm password: greasespot
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WordWolf
Let's see, what does that mean in English....
*activates twi decoder*
"pseudo-Christians" and "anti-Christians"
"Pseudo-Christians" means "people who aren't current twi memberfollowers."
"messages of animosity" means "messages that weren't rewrites of current HQ tapes".
"promoted homosexuality" means "challenged twi's infallibility practice"
"old news-very very old 20 year old news". Meaning uncertain.
May mean
"they exposed the plagiarism and lies of the organization's founder"
or
"they exposed the rapes and molestations of the organization's founder"
or
"they exposed the rapes, molestations and lies ruined by the organization's
successor, chosen by the organization's founder, from 1985 until a few years ago."
or
"they exposed the conspiracy and lives ruined by the organization's current leader,
in the past decade, who has yet to be indicted."
Unsure which.
"Most of those people didn't look to the Word of God, instead they focused on people"
means
"they didn't look the other way like good wayfers when confronted with accounts of
their spiritual siblings being raped, molested, taken advantage of, treated as
indentured servants, and other acts of malfeasance".
"I am not igorant of the past. I lived through it. I know what occurred and why"
means
"I accept that whatever answers leadership give are true. I refuse to consider evidence
or testimony of any kind that might suggest they are lying or incorrect. I refuse to
consider the idea that leadership might EVER be less than truthful to me.
If I did, they'd destroy my life, and I consider the cost of rebuilding it too great
to look outside my cage."
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oldiesman
I'm with JB on the aforementioned point.
Forgetting, or refuting, or killing the past, and reaching forth to the future, is a Christian concept, and those who practice those things shouldn't be condemned for it.
Why don't you condemn the Apostle Paul for writing it, and God for authoring it?
What makes you so right, those of you who endlessly focus on past sins of others?
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