Roy...i love how you kick off with things like..."What if I said..."
and i would have to say that you have a sense of faith that is free to play in whatever wide open field it finds, my friend
curious...you ever do any painting? or drawing?
....
using this thread as a sort of a notepad...heerza a little something i found that speaks of the mythic level faith...
In A SHORT HISTORY OF MYTH, Karen Armstrong has taken a number of her most cogent ideas developed in books of greater length and compressed them into a provocative overview. She sees myth as stories we tell ourselves in order to both deal with the world we find ourselves in and cope with questions we have about other possible forms of existence. As such, these stories are not factual (logos), but they are "true" (mythos), in that they serve a theraputic purpose. Armstrong believes that in order for a myth to do this, it is repeated as ritual and provides the participant with an ethical discipline. The "truth" is in the positive experience of the ritual participant, not in the original event, in and of itself.
also...i find it helpful how one can certainly identify life as it looks between the rungs of faith development:
- for example:
...how the mythic degree of faith seems basically what happens when those with a magic degree of faith gather in numbers and find a common language to describe their faith in magic. Such as when someone leaves survival-of-the-fittest gangland and are embraced by their first supportive family atmosphere, or when a bunch of 60s misfits and idealists where intitially drawn to TWi culture via promises of fire engine red drapes....and in our excitement, we often confuse our move from one rung to another for the whole trip up the ladder.
...or how a mythic faith may be reaching for reason, but in having more of a footing in myth than reason, basically drags the language of reason and fragments of reason down to the level of myth...such as the way VPW and ilk are often so hellbent on claiming that the PFAL myths are accurate, precise, scientific...yada yada. There seems a sense of being in a struggle between mere myth and mere reason.
well..here is an interesting and enjoyable chapter from John Armstrong's "God versus the Bible" that i think represents a near-perfect example of someone poised to reach from a rational rung (in this case, deist) to a pluralist rung (which is typically more messianic)
a snip...
He dreams that one day all of humanity will be freed from the shackles of faith.
but the common cold of this view...such as at seems with this author...is how they severely reduce their argument in order to counter an even more severely reduced position
kinda like a 3rd grader who will only argue with 2nd graders...and perhaps even doubts that 4th graders exist at all
the possibilites seem mostly just flattened into monolithic and dualist assumptions
and i think part of were the seeming passion to save-the-world-from-fundies/save-fundies-from-the-world comes in...
...is due to how, having faith in reason, one is already raring to make a leap toward a more wide open hearted degree of pluralist "Faith"
...if the rational thinker doesnt just fall back into a new myth that tries to apply the language-set of reason
(kinda like what VP seemed to do quite spastically, and what John Armstrong may even eventually end up doing)
and worth mentioning again, is how..on the whole...every leap of faith seems much better off by including that vital purpose of all previous rungs
...and to try to cut off the vital lessons and reasons for those previous rungs is not rational, does not work, and seems mostly just counterproductive and all around unhelpful
as we climb up and down any ladder...we would do well to make sure that we do not try to chop out the lower rungs
+odd, I want to reply to this, but it will take more time to compose than I have right now. :) I just want to let you know it IS being read and appreciated. I just can't do a reply justice at the moment.
I was going to say I used to draw for fun to asnswer your question - "you ever do any painting? or drawing?"
But after getting peaceful and my spirit moving from a dead stop to the speed if light or even faster to a dead stop to the speed if light I now see that I draw and paint with my heart, mind, and most of all with my spirit
Until we trow reasons out the door we have not begin
God is a God you can not see - What reasons is in that?
God is a God you can not hear - What reasons is in that?
God is a God you can not smell - What reasons is in that?
God is a God you can not touch - What reasons is in that?
God is a God you can not tasete - What reasons is in that?
God is a God you can not feel - What reasons is in that?
Yes some will say I hear God but we only hear Christ who speakes for or that which is of God
everything around is playing the music of truth but only without reasons can we hear
All things are of God but nothing but God is God
You reach to travel a life only to die so you can be born like a butterfly
That which I was I will be again but how some may asked how
That way I was inside my mother's womb I have reach inside God The way i was born of my mother I will be born of God
or
Were I am going I done been
or
I just came from were I am going
I go in a dark room and see black and say I am in the dark but I lie because for me to see the color black there must be some light there too
God is that light that you do not see in the dark when you see no color at all everything just a big blank area without even outline of what reason says is there
Jesus Christ lives inbetween the spaces of light of God that you see not
but once you give up reasons you know they are there (God and Christ) smiling with light of love
I dunno, I think more in terms of the lessons we're here to learn and how, if we're all part of the whole (the body of Christ, the universe... whatever you want to call it), then there aren't really levels, so to speak, because that would indicate that some of us are more important, more "evolved" or better than others.
I think more in terms of paths and which path, life lessons, challenges each of us encounter as being individual to each one of us and it's impossible to know the strength, knowledge, depth and insight required to survive being who someone is in their particular season of life.
a very basic way i have come to understand this very old ladder is as follows:
+ our faith is grounded in magic...
+ our faith is grounded in myth...
+ our faith is grounded in reason...
+ our faith is grounded in universal compassion...
+ our faith is grounded in nothing...
+ our faith is grounded in everything...
+ our faith is grounded in nonduality...
Hmmm..... could those be spirals off of the center, whatever that center may be? Or, twisting paths that parallel each other and sometimes, we follow a trail that leads from one path to another? OR, different stepping stones along the same, wide path and, we stand on certain stepping stones depending on the situation or topic?
Maybe I use reason to explain some things in life, but what others would call magic or myth for other life questions. Maybe I see the benefit and merits of a universal compassion, but don't necessarily see it as realistic or obtainable in my lifetime.
I don't think we're all one thing at all times. Like even you said, you're still learning, growing and ever-changing some of your beliefs. Aren't most of us? *smile* And, don't those who think or believe different serve a purpose and provide something beneficial to this "one body"? Even if it's to observe them and think, "Thank God I don't think, talk or act like that anymore!" :D
thanks for taking the time to respond like you guys have
i am enjoying reflecting on them
and Belle...i think you have really pointed out some of the most obviously important questions and concerns (and wonderful wonderings) that arise around such an approach to modelling faith development
if its ok with you...i would like to try to respond in detail from my perspective sometime very soon.
one's stage of faith does not define them as a whole human being
but each line does develop through it own range of degrees
and can be seen for what they are
each sprout in this bush of sprouting lines is growing along a path of many degrees
and so this whole tree has a path of all the paths that can also have a certain overall kind and style
and our path is our path is our path...we each have no other
the textures and contours and possible cartographies of all that we are becoming
is knowable and measurable in all its many varying lines and degrees
from many different perspectives
simply because it exists
and yeah...our magic sense of self, being our firstborn sense of self
most naturally becomes our deepest widest grandest canyon of self as we age
although ...if a child is kept from having faith in magic
he may not understand the value of wishful thinking as an adult
and so his rational thought is not as effective or useful
or...if one stays grounded in their faith in magic long past childhood
they may still find themselves relying primarily on things like "the law of believing" or "The Secret"
even if they are in charge of governments and armies
when we move beyond magic...we can still exercise our sense of wishful thinking (or not)
and when we move beyond myth...we can still exercise our sense of friendliness (or not)...and wishful thinking (or not)
and when we move beyond reason...we can still exercise our sense of critical thinking (or not) ...and friendliness (or not) ...and wishful thinking (or not)
when we move beyond compassion...we can still exercise our sense of equality (or not) ...and critical thinking (or not) ...and friendliness (or not) ...and wishful thinking (or not)
what we want to try to help heal in our selves and each other
is find out how we may have moved beyond previous stages of faith WITHOUT carrying those earlier senses of faith forward
again...any words i choose to even begin to describe such things is but a splash and a smear of a representation of possibilities
i cant help but want to add that there a number of misunderstandings of these kind of notions
- we dont want to be measured in any way. and so we wholesale reject all notions of developmental stages..especially in the contexts of spirituality or psychology.
- we assume that any such measurement is the measurement of the whole person, rather than measurement of aspects. so we reject it.
- we assume that any such measurement is the same ole hierarchical BS of our cultic past, or darker shades of religous history. so we reject it.
- we assume that interior things cannot possibly be measured, observed, studied, practiced. so we reject it.
- we assume that the bible has no such scales of measurement. so we reject it
- we assume that since other religious texts have other such ways of measuring, it cant be safe. so we reject it.
- we agree that there are such stages...but we reject all maps and models except our very favorite one
- we agree that there is measurement...though we really dont like it if we are not at the very top...or very close to the top of the spectrum. so we reject it.
- we dont realize what an amazing blessing it is to find one's self (or society) at some middle point (such as in a democracy)...so we reject it.
- we agree that we are on the second step of development...but only if the ladder has 2 steps. so we accept the very short ladder
- we agree that we are on the third step of development...but only if the ladder has 3 steps. so we accept a slightly longer ruler
- in some ways...the move from one stage to another is too much like dying for us to bear...which we cannot do by ourselves..so we reject it.
- other stuff
but i cant help but want to say that if we dont start looking at these distinctions with compassion ... we are only gonna get deeper and deeper into our inhumanity towards each other
mostly because we will remain confused as to why people see reality so radically different.
and so will act and react from a state of some degree of confusion.
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sirguessalot
interesting depiction by Blake
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year2027
God first
Beloved Todd or sirguessalot
God loves you my dear friend
what a great statement (how might we play at ways of being angels..., ...by climbing up and down the ladders of Faith?)
What if I said we are faith or faith is the basic of what we are.
Faith is our true inner tones or tongues the very trump we play all day long to our God.
Our faith plays the fruit of the spirit as a great song of music but when we miss a note of love its like hitting the wrong note during a love song.
We begin to play for God many basic tones but we must try and try again until it sounds just right making it faith.
but faith can be the unbelieft and worry a very out of tune horn or etc
believing helps us tune our horn so when we play for our God the trump its like the angels in their place
were that all I know to add right now
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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sirguessalot
Roy...i love how you kick off with things like..."What if I said..."
and i would have to say that you have a sense of faith that is free to play in whatever wide open field it finds, my friend
curious...you ever do any painting? or drawing?
....
using this thread as a sort of a notepad...heerza a little something i found that speaks of the mythic level faith...
also...i find it helpful how one can certainly identify life as it looks between the rungs of faith development:
- for example:
...how the mythic degree of faith seems basically what happens when those with a magic degree of faith gather in numbers and find a common language to describe their faith in magic. Such as when someone leaves survival-of-the-fittest gangland and are embraced by their first supportive family atmosphere, or when a bunch of 60s misfits and idealists where intitially drawn to TWi culture via promises of fire engine red drapes....and in our excitement, we often confuse our move from one rung to another for the whole trip up the ladder.
...or how a mythic faith may be reaching for reason, but in having more of a footing in myth than reason, basically drags the language of reason and fragments of reason down to the level of myth...such as the way VPW and ilk are often so hellbent on claiming that the PFAL myths are accurate, precise, scientific...yada yada. There seems a sense of being in a struggle between mere myth and mere reason.
...just sayin
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sirguessalot
well..here is an interesting and enjoyable chapter from John Armstrong's "God versus the Bible" that i think represents a near-perfect example of someone poised to reach from a rational rung (in this case, deist) to a pluralist rung (which is typically more messianic)
a snip...
but the common cold of this view...such as at seems with this author...is how they severely reduce their argument in order to counter an even more severely reduced position
kinda like a 3rd grader who will only argue with 2nd graders...and perhaps even doubts that 4th graders exist at all
the possibilites seem mostly just flattened into monolithic and dualist assumptions
and i think part of were the seeming passion to save-the-world-from-fundies/save-fundies-from-the-world comes in...
...is due to how, having faith in reason, one is already raring to make a leap toward a more wide open hearted degree of pluralist "Faith"
...if the rational thinker doesnt just fall back into a new myth that tries to apply the language-set of reason
(kinda like what VP seemed to do quite spastically, and what John Armstrong may even eventually end up doing)
and worth mentioning again, is how..on the whole...every leap of faith seems much better off by including that vital purpose of all previous rungs
...and to try to cut off the vital lessons and reasons for those previous rungs is not rational, does not work, and seems mostly just counterproductive and all around unhelpful
as we climb up and down any ladder...we would do well to make sure that we do not try to chop out the lower rungs
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Belle
+odd, I want to reply to this, but it will take more time to compose than I have right now. :) I just want to let you know it IS being read and appreciated. I just can't do a reply justice at the moment.
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year2027
God first
Beloved Todd or sirguessalot and others
God loves you my dear friend
I was going to say I used to draw for fun to asnswer your question - "you ever do any painting? or drawing?"
But after getting peaceful and my spirit moving from a dead stop to the speed if light or even faster to a dead stop to the speed if light I now see that I draw and paint with my heart, mind, and most of all with my spirit
Until we trow reasons out the door we have not begin
God is a God you can not see - What reasons is in that?
God is a God you can not hear - What reasons is in that?
God is a God you can not smell - What reasons is in that?
God is a God you can not touch - What reasons is in that?
God is a God you can not tasete - What reasons is in that?
God is a God you can not feel - What reasons is in that?
Yes some will say I hear God but we only hear Christ who speakes for or that which is of God
everything around is playing the music of truth but only without reasons can we hear
All things are of God but nothing but God is God
You reach to travel a life only to die so you can be born like a butterfly
That which I was I will be again but how some may asked how
That way I was inside my mother's womb I have reach inside God The way i was born of my mother I will be born of God
or
Were I am going I done been
or
I just came from were I am going
I go in a dark room and see black and say I am in the dark but I lie because for me to see the color black there must be some light there too
God is that light that you do not see in the dark when you see no color at all everything just a big blank area without even outline of what reason says is there
Jesus Christ lives inbetween the spaces of light of God that you see not
but once you give up reasons you know they are there (God and Christ) smiling with light of love
I will end now
thank you
with love and a holy kiss blowing your way Roy
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Kit Sober
John Bevere made a most startling comment in a teaching I was watching from his website.
He pointed out that we will be like Jesus when we get to heaven, and that there is an ongoing process of becoming like Jesus now.
The Lord is working to make us like Him, and when there is a distinction between Jesus and us, the problem is always with us.
Sometimes the chiseling process is painful to us, but the end product will be great!
In hope,
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cman
the seven angels and seven seals and seven trumpets
seven times seven plus one..rockin
many angels sitting there
which one is ready? more then a few..............
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Belle
I dunno, I think more in terms of the lessons we're here to learn and how, if we're all part of the whole (the body of Christ, the universe... whatever you want to call it), then there aren't really levels, so to speak, because that would indicate that some of us are more important, more "evolved" or better than others.
I think more in terms of paths and which path, life lessons, challenges each of us encounter as being individual to each one of us and it's impossible to know the strength, knowledge, depth and insight required to survive being who someone is in their particular season of life.
Hmmm..... could those be spirals off of the center, whatever that center may be? Or, twisting paths that parallel each other and sometimes, we follow a trail that leads from one path to another? OR, different stepping stones along the same, wide path and, we stand on certain stepping stones depending on the situation or topic?
Maybe I use reason to explain some things in life, but what others would call magic or myth for other life questions. Maybe I see the benefit and merits of a universal compassion, but don't necessarily see it as realistic or obtainable in my lifetime.
I don't think we're all one thing at all times. Like even you said, you're still learning, growing and ever-changing some of your beliefs. Aren't most of us? *smile* And, don't those who think or believe different serve a purpose and provide something beneficial to this "one body"? Even if it's to observe them and think, "Thank God I don't think, talk or act like that anymore!" :D
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sirguessalot
thanks for taking the time to respond like you guys have
i am enjoying reflecting on them
and Belle...i think you have really pointed out some of the most obviously important questions and concerns (and wonderful wonderings) that arise around such an approach to modelling faith development
if its ok with you...i would like to try to respond in detail from my perspective sometime very soon.
Todd
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sirguessalot
ok...a few thoughts to unpack it more...
if we are a conglomeration of developing lines
and our faith is only one of these lines
...our faith is not the sum of us
one's stage of faith does not define them as a whole human being
but each line does develop through it own range of degrees
and can be seen for what they are
each sprout in this bush of sprouting lines is growing along a path of many degrees
and so this whole tree has a path of all the paths that can also have a certain overall kind and style
and our path is our path is our path...we each have no other
the textures and contours and possible cartographies of all that we are becoming
is knowable and measurable in all its many varying lines and degrees
from many different perspectives
simply because it exists
and yeah...our magic sense of self, being our firstborn sense of self
most naturally becomes our deepest widest grandest canyon of self as we age
although ...if a child is kept from having faith in magic
he may not understand the value of wishful thinking as an adult
and so his rational thought is not as effective or useful
or...if one stays grounded in their faith in magic long past childhood
they may still find themselves relying primarily on things like "the law of believing" or "The Secret"
even if they are in charge of governments and armies
when we move beyond magic...we can still exercise our sense of wishful thinking (or not)
and when we move beyond myth...we can still exercise our sense of friendliness (or not)...and wishful thinking (or not)
and when we move beyond reason...we can still exercise our sense of critical thinking (or not) ...and friendliness (or not) ...and wishful thinking (or not)
when we move beyond compassion...we can still exercise our sense of equality (or not) ...and critical thinking (or not) ...and friendliness (or not) ...and wishful thinking (or not)
what we want to try to help heal in our selves and each other
is find out how we may have moved beyond previous stages of faith WITHOUT carrying those earlier senses of faith forward
again...any words i choose to even begin to describe such things is but a splash and a smear of a representation of possibilities
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cman
taking the blinders off one by one...
seems as one folds a few fold with it
and how is it that they can be seen
being blinders, darkness, can't see around em
perhaps the curiosity of what's not being seen
or an inner drive that gets tapped into
to wrestle that angel till it's one with you
till there isn't anything to fight
finding it quite enjoyable
though it was a bit bloody
yet the tender mercies of angels ministering
there is no other way to go for the hunger
hungry yet fed till satisfied
to hunger again to see God face to face
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sirguessalot
a very short list of related wikipedia articles for those interested
Maslow's hierarchy of needs
Stages of faith development
Spiral Dynamics
Structures of Consciousness
also, a notion that helps me stay grounded...is that these are merely maps..
and there are plenty of maps throughout human history to compare
and while it is important to notice where the maps overlap...
its as important to notice where they do not
and while some maps cover collective waves of development
others specialize in individual waves
and while some specialize in behavior
some specialize in interior perspectives
and while all maps often seem somehow abused by the confused
we cant really blame a map for that
as always...i suggest a balanced blend of precision, compassion and curiosity when navigating
...or "power, love and a sound mind"...to speak the same kinda thing in "another tongue"
;)
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sirguessalot
i cant help but want to add that there a number of misunderstandings of these kind of notions
- we dont want to be measured in any way. and so we wholesale reject all notions of developmental stages..especially in the contexts of spirituality or psychology.
- we assume that any such measurement is the measurement of the whole person, rather than measurement of aspects. so we reject it.
- we assume that any such measurement is the same ole hierarchical BS of our cultic past, or darker shades of religous history. so we reject it.
- we assume that interior things cannot possibly be measured, observed, studied, practiced. so we reject it.
- we assume that the bible has no such scales of measurement. so we reject it
- we assume that since other religious texts have other such ways of measuring, it cant be safe. so we reject it.
- we agree that there are such stages...but we reject all maps and models except our very favorite one
- we agree that there is measurement...though we really dont like it if we are not at the very top...or very close to the top of the spectrum. so we reject it.
- we dont realize what an amazing blessing it is to find one's self (or society) at some middle point (such as in a democracy)...so we reject it.
- we agree that we are on the second step of development...but only if the ladder has 2 steps. so we accept the very short ladder
- we agree that we are on the third step of development...but only if the ladder has 3 steps. so we accept a slightly longer ruler
- in some ways...the move from one stage to another is too much like dying for us to bear...which we cannot do by ourselves..so we reject it.
- other stuff
but i cant help but want to say that if we dont start looking at these distinctions with compassion ... we are only gonna get deeper and deeper into our inhumanity towards each other
mostly because we will remain confused as to why people see reality so radically different.
and so will act and react from a state of some degree of confusion.
which is not good for us.
it seems to seem.
at least
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cman
yeah growing is a changing experience
painful, joyful, expectations, always reaching
till one thinks they have stopped
yet inwardly it's still happening and can be measured
should we look deep enough
it is our natural being, being minded towards what is going on inside
as well as how the view of the outside is seen
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sirguessalot
hmm...yeah
something else
when we move to a new stage of development (a vertical step)
we must stop at each stage and find a way to translate it before we move on (a horizontal rest)
when we dont stop...we may move anyway, but we leave a shadow on that step (i.e....we have an "evil spirit")
one of the easiest examples i can think of
is when children are forced to move through the first stage without translating it
such as in occasions of child abuse
that child then has a "shadow" in their earlier stages of development
which seems like an outside entity
simply because it was never owned and made into a part of one's self
that is when descending agape-type spirituality is important
because we are no longer trying to get someone to evolve to some higher heaven
but rather going back with them into the hell of their lower woundedness
and unravelling the tangles by shedding light on where there was darkness
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cman
investigating the past shadows that are present
can be enlightening and difficult but worth the trouble
to quit fighting that succer, turn into the fire and let it burn
won't loose nothing you really want anyway
you know i wonder, and just as a thought
we tell our kids that they can be whatever they want to be
or is it let yourself be whatever you are
we tell them if you set your mind to it it can be done
do we really believe it ourselves?
can we actually be the person we want to be
sure it's bumpy at first, so is elementary school
junior and high-even tougher...
college takes more thinking and will
graduating and moving with the right winds is wisdom
how fast can the mind travel through these stages
not only up, but up and down after graduating
cause you will need em all at your command
one way or many ways, even combining for different looks and feels
used the schools to illustrate the mind....now at this time
this is what we have now and i do believe there is more
more places to travel in the free unlimited-
you can be whatever you want to be...honestly...
but learn to duck and move and catch the winds of thoughts blowing inside
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cman
though peace is within
it happens in strange ways
to lean on the breast of Christ through it all
yeah Christ the Spirit is there or no one would be here
whether it's not yet broken the surface of the earth or not
the mind and thoughts within one person-
34Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.
35For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.
36And a man's foes shall be they of his own household.
37He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
38And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.
39He that findeth his life shall lose it: and he that loseth his life for my sake shall find it.
All these related thoughts making war and peace when it's time to sheath the sword.......
for a while......
Without the words-faith-believing-hope-love.....it's still happening.
Recognized or not, with those concepts comes the meaningS....
Need not that any man teach it it just comes. And goes...
till we see patterns, rhythms, colors, sounds......angels ascending and descending
just like love
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sirguessalot
(previous post) reminds me of something important ive come to understand from various schools of thought
...something that is akin to VPWs difference between one's "state" and one's "standing"
except VPW presented a stripped-down monolithic flat version where there are only 2 (or so) basic "states"
...and 2 (or so) basic "standings"
- "state" being a temporary place of being one can move in and out of...as in "a state of fellowship"
- "standing" being a more permanent place of being that cannot change...as in one's "standing" as a son
only i would have to expand it quite a bit more to include an entire spectrum of both "states" and "standings"
simply put...there is a sense of self-awareness in us that moves from "rung-to-rung" in way that is utterly linear and vertical
...where we cannot skip a step, nor can we move in reverse ... we now find our "standing" on a new step
...in other words...once a seal is broken, it is broken...we move from faith to faith, as it were
not only would i say that our permanent sense of self-awareness moves from body to soul to spirit in a manner that can be described as our "standing"
...but that there are even many much finer distinctions between each of those 3 steps that can be discerned and appreciated as a spectrum
but...and...too...
all of those steps can also be experienced as less permanent "states" of self-awareness
in fact, we pretty much move through the entire spectrum of "states" every single day of our life ... from body to soul to spirit
...including those same kinds of finer spectrums of distinctions between each of those 3 states
an example...we can be "standing" at a place of mythic awareness
(where we translate our experience of reality through the lense of some specific story-language...such as PFAL)
but one day we enter a much higher state of spiritual experience
we can only explain this higher "state" from where we "stand"
...we simply cannot explain the "state" from a place we have never "stood"
thus, one may experience a profound series of dreams, visions, intuitions, archetypes, etc...
only to describe it as an experience of demons, angels, and other mythic otherwordly characters
i think its important to note that this is healthy for an 8 year old
not for the president of a modern global military industrial complex
:blink:
and too..i think its important to note
that "higher" (thinner) states of awareness are not hard to come by
we flit about in and out of them all ... all the time
most often without even knowing it as such
one can reach highest kinds of states of awarenes in a wide variety of ways..such as...
- being tortured and hanging on a cross
- meditation, contemplation, fasting
- pregancy, illness, injury, dying
- sex, drugs, rock n roll
- any radically new environment or experience
- etc...
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cman
soooo......one ends up looking for a standing in this state?
or the state is the standing sort of thing...
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sirguessalot
hmm
lemme try it like this
(but i'll reduce down to the basic 3 again)
3 ways to describe the basic range of "states" are
- waking, dreaming and sleeping
- gross, subtle and causal
- body, soul and spirit
when we are awake...we are in a state of experiencing our gross body
when we are dreaming...we are in a state of experiencing subtler soul
when we are sleeping...we are in a state of experiencing causal spirit
another way of describing "state" might be "altitude"
...
but ... our "standing" can be understood as more of an architectual development...or the actual object of our self awareness
...where, as we add floors to our inner temple of understanding, we are more conscious of "states" at higher altitudes
like saying the more floors we add to our temple...the easier it is to look out the windows at higher altitudes
otherwise...we have to be caught up to those higher "states" by other means
such as i mentioned before...
various addictions have a lot to do with people wanting to access higher states without having to permanently change
some spiritual practice can be described as getting out on the roof and sketching out a new addition
...or...reaching up from one's "standing" to taste and touch higher "states" in order to prepare to transform that "state" into "standing"
...to change a mere altitude (a place that is in mid air) into a stable shelf on which to rest upon til ready to build again
meditation and contemplation does this for us
to practice being in higher "states: in order to get a feel for how to build something permanent there
make sense?
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cman
we see and feel and experience this sense little by little
like kind of dipping the toes in and out
test the waters
reach for that next rung, grab it and hold it a bit
catch your breath and do it again
another awareness reveals an awareness of the previous one that wasn't there before
giving a helping little push of faith to faith
not that the previous was wrong or bad, just different
this would be the view of self from self
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cman
closer?
ha..or not....
can see it but can't find the darn words
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sirguessalot
diggin it, man
and must say i love the way we (and some others) come to dance like this oh so hypertextually over the years
deeply ... yet also lightly
and too...funny part is... how it doesnt seem to fit as a "doctrinal" discussion
more like rambling poets who struggle to find words to describe things that are beyond description
foolish fun, it seems...as always
:B)
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