Honestly, I think if you paid attention to what TWI said and not what they did, you had to be able to leave with a fierce independent streak. The whole "most people don't think: they only think they think" attitude could have disarmed you and trapped you into the TWI mindset, or it could have liberated you. I think that's one of the reasons it was so hard for them to hold onto so many people once the more charismatic leader died. People tolerated stuff from Wierwille they never would tolerate from LCM because LCM wasn't the grandfatherly type Wierwille was.
I also think that's part of the reason there's an attitude of "anyone who left before I did left too soon; anyone who left after I did stayed too long."
You can't found a religion based on rebellion against authority and then expect no one to rebel against your religion. And TWI was a rebellious little cult. Your previous teachers can't be trusted. The Word and nothing but the Word! Yeah, but reject TWI on the same basis? Ha! They didn't see THAT one coming!
Mormons - Any public communications that disagree with the written doctrine of the church or church leadership can get you hauled before a "Bishop's Court" aka "Court of Love". From there, you can be charged as an apostate and disfellowshipped or excommunicated.
Local Church aka Recovery Movement - Only went to one meeting and that through trickery. Many of the people sneered at traditional Christianity and believed that they were the only true Christian religion. In that respect it felt very much like TWI. Could have just been those people, but that's all I have to go on.
Unitarian - My family and I had a very enjoyable Thanksgiving diner with a Unitarian seminary student and a Unitarian minister. The minster shocked me when he said that they don't talk about God much because the athiests get upset.
Community Presbyterian Church - They spend days and days going over the smallest issue with "prayerful consideration" It's a wonder anything gets done.
Islam - Believe it or not, they have more learning and better arguments to justify their faith than most Christians. I like the Muslims in my community a lot and have been welcomed to their religious celebrations. OTOH, I am in no danger of being converted.
I'd think most of us here would agree that twi developed a lack of critical thinking skills among its followers. There was also a sense of superiority over other. . . well, everybody.
Can anyone share some experiences in which another church or religious group was like twi, or completely opposite?
Are there groups that truly encourage critical thinking and true humility?
It seems to me that "thoughtlessness" goes with the cult mentality because there is no respect for anyone that disagrees with you, and therefore the other person is not worthy of the thoughts of your concern.
I think this goes with shutting up your bowels of compassion, which is such a sin, and it creeps up so quietly. Because I have given a few of my tithe $ to various organizations I get tons of mail telling of this need and that need, all of which are legitimate and heart rending. It is tempting to ignore the cries and discard without even a prayer on their behalf because there are so many and there is a cost for every prayer. But I just never want to become spiritually constipated.
I was thinking of how the Pope is trying to foster respect for other religions and how foreign that is to my thinking, but it's really nice: Being able to consider that people who don't agree with you are entitled not only to their beliefs but also respect with the same sanctity of god-created preciousness that we view those who agree with us.
Judaism actually encourages debate and discussion. Check out some of Abigail's posts to see the cross section of topics and viewpoints, if you're interested. I've come to have a very high respect for Judaism in the past few years.
I was raised Southern Baptist and there's that joke about the newly dead guy walking around Heaven with St. Peter and coming to a door where he was told to be real quiet because it was the Baptists and they thought they were the only ones there. :lol: BUT, I was never raised to believe that or taught that and I was very involved with the church until I graduated high school.
There's the Jehovah's Witnesses that think only 144,000 out of their group are going to make it to heaven. So, they discriminate not only against other religions but also against their own people. *shrug*
I attend a Methodist church occasionally and they are all-inclusive and do a lot to help folks in the community regardless of religious affiliation and they participate in organized events/charities/missions/etc. with a lot of other churches of varying religions in the area. It's pretty impressive and amazing to attend a church that really does "do good unto ALL MEN" - period - end of story - ALL without exception and expecting nothing in return.
I'll admit there are many groups that are kind, loving, and caring. But in most cases I have found it just as much a facade as it was in TWI . Granted many newbs in TWI, or those who just didn't know any better about TWI, were genuine, but there were tons of fakes.
Take the Amish.. There nice and kind to those outside their walls, but you start to get inside their walls, you have to conform or else. It's their way or the higway, and they don't tolerate disagreeing with their councilmen.
I think most groups have that loving attitude just to get you to come in.. And once they have you where they want you, they change. Hmm.. Gee, almost sounds like marriages today even.. lol.. Ok, not all.. But anyways.. another subject.. Derail, Sorry!
I have a number of muslim friends as well. Very nice sociable loving folks. In fact, even in disagreements we get along well. But you talk to one of their wives and how they get along and how things in the muslim community work, and you get a completely different picture. Their openess to discuss and humbleness to change quickly fades.
Even the Jews which I have known to be very open to discussion. They'll invite you to their synagogues and openly discuss, debate, and disagree lovingly. But become a Jew and part of their rank and file (not just a person that visits their synangogue weekly or partakes of some of their traditions) and you'll see another side that wides up you either oobeying the Rabbi or else.
Maybe it's just me.. Really, I won't dismiss that fact. But groups tend to be groups for a reason, they hold to some form of belief system (written or verbal), and unless you comply you're just an outsider that either opposes them, or are wanted to make their numbers larger... Even the homeless shelter that I've volunterred at before. If you're just a newcomer once or twice, they don't mind, but if you become a consistent part of the help, they start requiring things of you and get an attitude if you don't comply... So I just have decided to love people as much as I can, and not actually consider myself a part of any certain group. I may be a part of a fellowship, but that's only as long as they'll put up with me! Hmm Yeah, I'm just not humble enough! That's what it is. I should change to what they want me to be, right?! Well, some, I admit I'm willing to change some things, but not everything, I'd much rather only change to what God wants me to be.
I had a co-worker who was a Unitarian for many years. Then someone he knew was banned from the group. He refused to cut the guy off, but remained casual friends. They told my co-worker he had to either drop the guy or leave the church. Smart man that he is, he left the church.
I think you can find small, local groups of any denomination that are completely open and friendly and helpful, but whenever you expand beyond local boundaries, the very definitions of a church's beliefs imply that anyone who doesn't believe the same thing is dammed. That really doesn't give you many choices, does it? The more zealous you are, the more you will believe those dividing lines are a good thing and the harder you will fight to uphold and maintain them.
i think the whole "respect for other religions" thing is just window dressing. pull back the curtain, and there's that good old "holier than thou" superiority--no religion or denomination or cult would exist without the idea that it's better than ("superior to") other existing systems. that's the whole reason any religious group exists: someone decided that all the other groups are WRONG. (of course, there are some that got started because someone figured starting a religion beat working for a living!) otherwise, why not just join another group?
I have a friend who, years ago, became involved with Young Ljfe. She then left them to become part of one of their splinters.(I won't name it for lack of permission to do so.) This group was very into control. They dictated who you could date, marry, socialize with and even dictated when it was permissible (or not) to have children. The life style was communal and sounded quite similar to a Way home. Sound familiar? They too, were convinced their take on things was the only correct viewpoint. We compare cult notes from time to time and the similarities are just downright creepy.
So yeah, there definately are groups beside TWI that sanction an attitude of superiority.
There seems to be a prevailing "We versus Them" mentality that underscores all of these self serving cults and even some churches...
...It pays to shop around. There are good churches that are run by people of great humility and compassion...no feelings of superiority involved...they serve people and don't lord over them...but ya gotta look.
Hi, new here... been quietly sipping coffee in the corner booth, but now the caffeine has kicked in...
On the topic of superiority. Anyone out there kinda miss the old "I'm better than you are" mindset that was oooooh so comfortable? Wasn't it a great feeling to kick off your shoes at the end of the day and just KNOW that you KNOW that you KNOW that you were better than everyone else out there because you HAD THE RIGHTLY DIVIDED WORD??
I am being a little bit sarcastic here.
just a little.
But seriously, it's a little difficult to help people when you look at them like everything that happened to them happened because they deserved it. God looked past what we deserved when he gave His son for us.
We were taught "saved by grace" in doctrine, but we were also taught that we could lose access to God's ear by screwing something up. Where's the grace in that?
Hi, new here... been quietly sipping coffee in the corner booth, but now the caffeine has kicked in...
Hello.
Hope you've been enjoying your stay so far.
The top of this forum has some general advice for new arrivals, I'd recommend a look through it.
("Welcome to the Greasespot Cafe".)
On the topic of superiority. Anyone out there kinda miss the old "I'm better than you are" mindset that was oooooh so comfortable? Wasn't it a great feeling to kick off your shoes at the end of the day and just KNOW that you KNOW that you KNOW that you were better than everyone else out there because you HAD THE RIGHTLY DIVIDED WORD??
I am being a little bit sarcastic here.
just a little.
That sad part is that it IS true that this attitude is comfortable. It makes the superior person feel
better, as in "I thank God I'm better than them".
Luke 18:10-14 (NASB)
"10"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11"The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
12'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
13"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
14"I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
It also saves time and effort. If you already know it all, there's no point in trying to reach a
higher plateau of love or understanding, after all...
But seriously, it's a little difficult to help people when you look at them like everything that happened to them happened because they deserved it. God looked past what we deserved when he gave His son for us.
We were taught "saved by grace" in doctrine, but we were also taught that we could lose access to God's ear by screwing something up. Where's the grace in that?
Worse,
as the 90s ground on, the rules piled up and multiplied and got stricter.
If you didn't schedule your time in 15 minute blocks in writing,
if you didn't go 2-by-2 EVERYWHERE (the corner store, everywhere),
if you dared to make the slightest question about doctrine or conduct,
you were supposed to be really in trouble with God.
On the topic of superiority. Anyone out there kinda miss the old "I'm better than you are" mindset that was oooooh so comfortable? Wasn't it a great feeling to kick off your shoes at the end of the day and just KNOW that you KNOW that you KNOW that you were better than everyone else out there because you HAD THE RIGHTLY DIVIDED WORD??
I am being a little bit sarcastic here.
just a little.
But we didn't really, did we JavaJive? I mean, to the stupid egg-sucking world we were geniuses and we'd "forgotten more Word than they've ever learned", but within the walls of TWI, we were idiots. We weren't living up to the expectations of God - we weren't "taking it to the wall" every single day and walking with "all nine all the time". We didn't have the latest and greatest nametag. We just, well, we weren't "good enough". There were more and more hoops to jump through. More and more teachings to "master".
That superiority was only effective around new people and people outside TWI. But, yes, it *did* feel good ..... for a while.
The longer I'm out, the more ridiculous I view people as being who claim to have all the answers or to know without a doubt that "x" is the answer. I'm much more comfortable with, "This is what I think......, but I could be wrong" and "Well, I just don't know about that."
There's much more peace in my life knowing that I'm doing the best I can and that I do know enough to make right decisions, to take care of myself and to enjoy life. I'm content, happy and see wonderful things in my life that I never saw or felt while involved with TWI. To paraphrase the incredible Maya Angelou.... when we know better we do better. And there's always room for learning and knowing better.
I have had to work very hard to regain my trust in myself (not to mention others) because of my experiences. It seemed that the closer I got to the center of things, the worse I looked. Makes yourself doubt your abilities that God gave you, and when you became comfortable with yourself you were told you had a problem with ego - that you were too prideful.
I was taken aside at one point and told I was on the verge of "spiritual death" (whatever the hell that means - I didn't have the guts to ask at the time, it just scared the s*** out of me) because of my problems with pride. I was also told that this was taken directly to DEF-confrontation Level III "to the church" (do not pass go, do not collect $200) because of the seriousness of my problem.
Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Somehow verses 15 and 16 got skipped - you know, tell it to him alone, then take 2-3 witnesses, etc.
And the funny thing was that the "church" in a branch full of fellowships consisted of 2 people. I guess they were the only ones spiritually qualified to be there. When I spoke with one of them later, they told me that they had no clue what was going on, but that they felt the best thing they could do was just sit still and not say anything.
Years later (like over a decade) I started to consider the timeframe of this in my life - my family had just been made MA, one of the reasons being cited was something along the lines of my mother being "willfull" or something. I wonder if they figured they better get me under control before I grew up to become like her.
Too late for that now. I'm just like my Mom... Hope to become more like her, too!
JWs I've been around since leaving TWI had eerily familiar type personalities I experienced in TWI.
I've been to non-denominational churches who have not banned anyone from not believing their doctrine. I went to a great church in San Diego where the pastor said he was happy to help anyone find the place they wanted to be if it wasn't at his church. I emailed the same pastor telling him my beliefs on the trinity and invited him to come and talk to me. He did so, and I wasnt' convinced of the trinity after that meeting. He still treated me with respect and love. It's when people try to take others with them in a fight about doctrine that problems arise. That is sad. If someone disagrees the vehemently, they should go do their own thing instead of starting a dissention.
I sometimes attend Methodist chapels with friends or relatives.
And I sometimes attend a surprisingly laid-back Anglican church. The focus at all of these places is so humble, and so outward-reaching, that occasionally I am shocked. But thrilled and excited.
Another time I was in a Bible bookstore and a youth came in and tried unsuccessfully to snatch a customer's purse and then fled. The shopkeeper and the customer immediately prayed for the young man, for his deliverance from the evil in his mind. I was shocked ... at their compassion, and at my own unkind thoughts about the youth.
The incident showed me just how thoughtless and "superior" I'd learned to be at TWI. And what can be learned from other groups.
Kit, It there's one thing that shines through in all your posts and replies that I have read, it's that you are a genuinely nice and thoughtful person. This little corner cafe is better because you're here. I don't know you but you can really see your genuineness and compassion for others here. Thanks for being here.
I hope when I get to heaven (if), the Lord will agree.
That's the test.
to all:
As with so many of the closed corporation attitude changes mentioned here, it is truly a challenge to retain the kindness of the Lord in a cross-religion environment.
Part of my work is in Wendover NV, which is a surprisingly religious community, and have irritated a lot of people to the point of almost losing my job (I am hoping I am able to find the way to find favor with these people).
I know it is possible to be a Christian in the world. But it is not without challenges.
And I don't think you can remain a groupy exclusively because the Lord loves too many other people, and thinking like that always stuck in the craw of loyal twi people from the very beginning of my involvement (1972 I was witnessed to by Michael Martin).
I like going to church, and have joined a bunch of them, but like mentioned by others, group members often want to own your soul as well.
I have long thought that when the Lord told Jeremiah He would deliver Jeremiah, Jeremiah should have questioned the Lord as to what were these things the Lord was going to deliver him from. Also with Daniel and his bunch -- we would never even know their names unless they had been thrown to the wolves so to speak.
So trying to be a good Christian has challenges, and I am not the first to discover this, but with the Lord, we can overcome them all.
I am hoping that I will not be one of the ones sawed asunder, but I hear that martyrdom guarantees a place in heaven. I know the Muslims believe that too.
Heaven will be interesting that's for sure!
I agree with WordWolf on the living Christianity and humility that is found in the Catholic Church. I have been a practicing Catholic for about 12 years now, and going to that Church is still one of my favorites because of the lack of groupiness.
I think being constantly reminded of the Passion of our Lord tends to keep one humble.
In hope, and again, thanks, wrdsandworks. I also hope you enjoy your time here at the Cafe.
As with so many of the closed corporation attitude changes mentioned here, it is truly a challenge to retain the kindness of the Lord in a cross-religion environment.
....And I don't think you can remain a groupy exclusively because the Lord loves too many other people, and thinking like that always stuck in the craw of loyal twi people from the very beginning of my involvement (1972 I was witnessed to by Michael Martin).
How true it is! I always wondered how if God looked on the heart He could be so narrow minded as to what He considered OK. If the motive of heart is what is looked at, and people do what they consider to be right and loving God in so many different forms and fashions, then why should we judge?
I agree with WordWolf on the living Christianity and humility that is found in the Catholic Church. I have been a practicing Catholic for about 12 years now, and going to that Church is still one of my favorites because of the lack of groupiness.
I think being constantly reminded of the Passion of our Lord tends to keep one humble.
That will truly keep you humble.
I attended my first mass that wasn't a funeral on Christmas Eve this past year. The service made me cry I was so touched. More touched than I have been in fellowship in years and years.
The priest had called all the little kids up to the front of the church and asked them where Jesus was. Of course, the kids pointed to the manger. The priest then explained that they could see Jesus in each other if they looked really hard. Then he told them to hug each other and show God how much they loved him.
I'm tearing up thinking about it. That was a teaching with power.
My in laws are Catholic, they love God more than most and they show it in how they love everybody else. God will honor that heart for sure.
I think most churches leaders are a lot like the ones in TWI. People are stuck iin wanting a "king" (the wrong kind) to lead them and be responsible for them. Like when the people told Moses - YOU go up on the mountain. Everyone was invited but they didn't accept the invitation and appointed Moses to do it for them. That is still how most people are today.
And It fosters a "I have to be better than you are" attituded among the leadership. I have found very few leaders who can stay humble enough to take God's people where God really wants them to go to. I think that is why God is not present in a lot of the churches.
Most leadership wants you to place yourself under their "covering" which is wrong spiritually. There is only one covering you can really be under - God's covering. And when church leaders forget that, they are traveling down the wrong road and leading the people down the same wrong road.
I even remember having a conversation with someone about serial killers and their victims, and they told me we as Believers had nothing to worry about unless we were possessed because the murderer and the victim are both possessed by the same spirit or the murderer wouldn't be able to kill them.
WHAT??
I later heard someone HORRIBLY apply this logic to what happened at Columbine.
How terrible is that?
We were taught that broken fellowship had consequences... and they were terrible.
I was asked once what I would do if I was ever made MA... I scared the person with my answer: I would kill myself. I would kill myself because I didn't want to become possessed by the devil spirits that would attack me once I was outside the walls of Zion... AND IT WOULD BE SEVEN TIMES WORSE THAN WHAT HAD EVER HAPPENED BEFORE!
Glad I had that cup of reality to wake me up!
I've developed a greater sense of empathy now than ever before. It's easy to feel for people when you finally allow yourself TO FEEL.
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Raf
Honestly, I think if you paid attention to what TWI said and not what they did, you had to be able to leave with a fierce independent streak. The whole "most people don't think: they only think they think" attitude could have disarmed you and trapped you into the TWI mindset, or it could have liberated you. I think that's one of the reasons it was so hard for them to hold onto so many people once the more charismatic leader died. People tolerated stuff from Wierwille they never would tolerate from LCM because LCM wasn't the grandfatherly type Wierwille was.
I also think that's part of the reason there's an attitude of "anyone who left before I did left too soon; anyone who left after I did stayed too long."
You can't found a religion based on rebellion against authority and then expect no one to rebel against your religion. And TWI was a rebellious little cult. Your previous teachers can't be trusted. The Word and nothing but the Word! Yeah, but reject TWI on the same basis? Ha! They didn't see THAT one coming!
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Jim
I've had a little experience here...
Mormons - Any public communications that disagree with the written doctrine of the church or church leadership can get you hauled before a "Bishop's Court" aka "Court of Love". From there, you can be charged as an apostate and disfellowshipped or excommunicated.
Local Church aka Recovery Movement - Only went to one meeting and that through trickery. Many of the people sneered at traditional Christianity and believed that they were the only true Christian religion. In that respect it felt very much like TWI. Could have just been those people, but that's all I have to go on.
Unitarian - My family and I had a very enjoyable Thanksgiving diner with a Unitarian seminary student and a Unitarian minister. The minster shocked me when he said that they don't talk about God much because the athiests get upset.
Community Presbyterian Church - They spend days and days going over the smallest issue with "prayerful consideration" It's a wonder anything gets done.
Islam - Believe it or not, they have more learning and better arguments to justify their faith than most Christians. I like the Muslims in my community a lot and have been welcomed to their religious celebrations. OTOH, I am in no danger of being converted.
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dmiller
I, for one, wish that twi could be THE MINISTRY THESE FOLKS KNOW TO BE.
but I guess that just wasn't in the cards dealt, eh??
The Amish Folk walk the Talk.
Twi just talks, while stumbling.
These folks took time out of their own personal grief --
to comfort the family of the killer.
What would twi do??
Right ----- (I don't have to say it -- you filled in the blank correctly)
After re-reading this story -- I'm almost ready to move there,
and learn what these folks have to offer.
If this isn't love in action -- nothing is.
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Kit Sober
It seems to me that "thoughtlessness" goes with the cult mentality because there is no respect for anyone that disagrees with you, and therefore the other person is not worthy of the thoughts of your concern.
I think this goes with shutting up your bowels of compassion, which is such a sin, and it creeps up so quietly. Because I have given a few of my tithe $ to various organizations I get tons of mail telling of this need and that need, all of which are legitimate and heart rending. It is tempting to ignore the cries and discard without even a prayer on their behalf because there are so many and there is a cost for every prayer. But I just never want to become spiritually constipated.
I was thinking of how the Pope is trying to foster respect for other religions and how foreign that is to my thinking, but it's really nice: Being able to consider that people who don't agree with you are entitled not only to their beliefs but also respect with the same sanctity of god-created preciousness that we view those who agree with us.
Mother Theresa was like that I think.
In hope, trying to be a truly nice person,
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WordWolf
There's a local Roman Catholic Church parish by me that does volunteer work for others,
and the concern is for the individual and the one brought low.
Hanging around with them a few weeks will show you more care for others and humility
than I ever saw in my entire time in twi.
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Belle
Judaism actually encourages debate and discussion. Check out some of Abigail's posts to see the cross section of topics and viewpoints, if you're interested. I've come to have a very high respect for Judaism in the past few years.
I was raised Southern Baptist and there's that joke about the newly dead guy walking around Heaven with St. Peter and coming to a door where he was told to be real quiet because it was the Baptists and they thought they were the only ones there. :lol: BUT, I was never raised to believe that or taught that and I was very involved with the church until I graduated high school.
There's the Jehovah's Witnesses that think only 144,000 out of their group are going to make it to heaven. So, they discriminate not only against other religions but also against their own people. *shrug*
I attend a Methodist church occasionally and they are all-inclusive and do a lot to help folks in the community regardless of religious affiliation and they participate in organized events/charities/missions/etc. with a lot of other churches of varying religions in the area. It's pretty impressive and amazing to attend a church that really does "do good unto ALL MEN" - period - end of story - ALL without exception and expecting nothing in return.
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TrustAndObey
I'll admit there are many groups that are kind, loving, and caring. But in most cases I have found it just as much a facade as it was in TWI . Granted many newbs in TWI, or those who just didn't know any better about TWI, were genuine, but there were tons of fakes.
Take the Amish.. There nice and kind to those outside their walls, but you start to get inside their walls, you have to conform or else. It's their way or the higway, and they don't tolerate disagreeing with their councilmen.
I think most groups have that loving attitude just to get you to come in.. And once they have you where they want you, they change. Hmm.. Gee, almost sounds like marriages today even.. lol.. Ok, not all.. But anyways.. another subject.. Derail, Sorry!
I have a number of muslim friends as well. Very nice sociable loving folks. In fact, even in disagreements we get along well. But you talk to one of their wives and how they get along and how things in the muslim community work, and you get a completely different picture. Their openess to discuss and humbleness to change quickly fades.
Even the Jews which I have known to be very open to discussion. They'll invite you to their synagogues and openly discuss, debate, and disagree lovingly. But become a Jew and part of their rank and file (not just a person that visits their synangogue weekly or partakes of some of their traditions) and you'll see another side that wides up you either oobeying the Rabbi or else.
Maybe it's just me.. Really, I won't dismiss that fact. But groups tend to be groups for a reason, they hold to some form of belief system (written or verbal), and unless you comply you're just an outsider that either opposes them, or are wanted to make their numbers larger... Even the homeless shelter that I've volunterred at before. If you're just a newcomer once or twice, they don't mind, but if you become a consistent part of the help, they start requiring things of you and get an attitude if you don't comply... So I just have decided to love people as much as I can, and not actually consider myself a part of any certain group. I may be a part of a fellowship, but that's only as long as they'll put up with me! Hmm Yeah, I'm just not humble enough! That's what it is. I should change to what they want me to be, right?! Well, some, I admit I'm willing to change some things, but not everything, I'd much rather only change to what God wants me to be.
Oh well, it is probably just me Oh Lord!!
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TheHighWay
I had a co-worker who was a Unitarian for many years. Then someone he knew was banned from the group. He refused to cut the guy off, but remained casual friends. They told my co-worker he had to either drop the guy or leave the church. Smart man that he is, he left the church.
I think you can find small, local groups of any denomination that are completely open and friendly and helpful, but whenever you expand beyond local boundaries, the very definitions of a church's beliefs imply that anyone who doesn't believe the same thing is dammed. That really doesn't give you many choices, does it? The more zealous you are, the more you will believe those dividing lines are a good thing and the harder you will fight to uphold and maintain them.
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sprawled out
i think the whole "respect for other religions" thing is just window dressing. pull back the curtain, and there's that good old "holier than thou" superiority--no religion or denomination or cult would exist without the idea that it's better than ("superior to") other existing systems. that's the whole reason any religious group exists: someone decided that all the other groups are WRONG. (of course, there are some that got started because someone figured starting a religion beat working for a living!) otherwise, why not just join another group?
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waysider
I have a friend who, years ago, became involved with Young Ljfe. She then left them to become part of one of their splinters.(I won't name it for lack of permission to do so.) This group was very into control. They dictated who you could date, marry, socialize with and even dictated when it was permissible (or not) to have children. The life style was communal and sounded quite similar to a Way home. Sound familiar? They too, were convinced their take on things was the only correct viewpoint. We compare cult notes from time to time and the similarities are just downright creepy.
So yeah, there definately are groups beside TWI that sanction an attitude of superiority.
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GrouchoMarxJr
There seems to be a prevailing "We versus Them" mentality that underscores all of these self serving cults and even some churches...
...It pays to shop around. There are good churches that are run by people of great humility and compassion...no feelings of superiority involved...they serve people and don't lord over them...but ya gotta look.
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Bolshevik
yeah, gotta go shoppin'
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JavaJane
Hi, new here... been quietly sipping coffee in the corner booth, but now the caffeine has kicked in...
On the topic of superiority. Anyone out there kinda miss the old "I'm better than you are" mindset that was oooooh so comfortable? Wasn't it a great feeling to kick off your shoes at the end of the day and just KNOW that you KNOW that you KNOW that you were better than everyone else out there because you HAD THE RIGHTLY DIVIDED WORD??
I am being a little bit sarcastic here.
just a little.
But seriously, it's a little difficult to help people when you look at them like everything that happened to them happened because they deserved it. God looked past what we deserved when he gave His son for us.
We were taught "saved by grace" in doctrine, but we were also taught that we could lose access to God's ear by screwing something up. Where's the grace in that?
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WordWolf
Hello.
Hope you've been enjoying your stay so far.
The top of this forum has some general advice for new arrivals, I'd recommend a look through it.
("Welcome to the Greasespot Cafe".)
That sad part is that it IS true that this attitude is comfortable. It makes the superior person feelbetter, as in "I thank God I'm better than them".
Luke 18:10-14 (NASB)
"10"Two men went up into the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11"The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself: 'God, I thank You that I am not like other people: swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax collector.
12'I fast twice a week; I pay tithes of all that I get.'
13"But the tax collector, standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me, the sinner!'
14"I tell you, this man went to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, but he who humbles himself will be exalted."
It also saves time and effort. If you already know it all, there's no point in trying to reach a
higher plateau of love or understanding, after all...
Worse,
as the 90s ground on, the rules piled up and multiplied and got stricter.
If you didn't schedule your time in 15 minute blocks in writing,
if you didn't go 2-by-2 EVERYWHERE (the corner store, everywhere),
if you dared to make the slightest question about doctrine or conduct,
you were supposed to be really in trouble with God.
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Belle
That superiority was only effective around new people and people outside TWI. But, yes, it *did* feel good ..... for a while.
The longer I'm out, the more ridiculous I view people as being who claim to have all the answers or to know without a doubt that "x" is the answer. I'm much more comfortable with, "This is what I think......, but I could be wrong" and "Well, I just don't know about that."
There's much more peace in my life knowing that I'm doing the best I can and that I do know enough to make right decisions, to take care of myself and to enjoy life. I'm content, happy and see wonderful things in my life that I never saw or felt while involved with TWI. To paraphrase the incredible Maya Angelou.... when we know better we do better. And there's always room for learning and knowing better.
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JavaJane
How very very true, Belle.
I have had to work very hard to regain my trust in myself (not to mention others) because of my experiences. It seemed that the closer I got to the center of things, the worse I looked. Makes yourself doubt your abilities that God gave you, and when you became comfortable with yourself you were told you had a problem with ego - that you were too prideful.
I was taken aside at one point and told I was on the verge of "spiritual death" (whatever the hell that means - I didn't have the guts to ask at the time, it just scared the s*** out of me) because of my problems with pride. I was also told that this was taken directly to DEF-confrontation Level III "to the church" (do not pass go, do not collect $200) because of the seriousness of my problem.
Matthew 18:17
And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell [it] unto the church: but if he neglect to hear the church, let him be unto thee as an heathen man and a publican.
Somehow verses 15 and 16 got skipped - you know, tell it to him alone, then take 2-3 witnesses, etc.
And the funny thing was that the "church" in a branch full of fellowships consisted of 2 people. I guess they were the only ones spiritually qualified to be there. When I spoke with one of them later, they told me that they had no clue what was going on, but that they felt the best thing they could do was just sit still and not say anything.
Years later (like over a decade) I started to consider the timeframe of this in my life - my family had just been made MA, one of the reasons being cited was something along the lines of my mother being "willfull" or something. I wonder if they figured they better get me under control before I grew up to become like her.
Too late for that now. I'm just like my Mom... Hope to become more like her, too!
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Nottawayfer
JWs I've been around since leaving TWI had eerily familiar type personalities I experienced in TWI.
I've been to non-denominational churches who have not banned anyone from not believing their doctrine. I went to a great church in San Diego where the pastor said he was happy to help anyone find the place they wanted to be if it wasn't at his church. I emailed the same pastor telling him my beliefs on the trinity and invited him to come and talk to me. He did so, and I wasnt' convinced of the trinity after that meeting. He still treated me with respect and love. It's when people try to take others with them in a fight about doctrine that problems arise. That is sad. If someone disagrees the vehemently, they should go do their own thing instead of starting a dissention.
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Twinky
I sometimes attend Methodist chapels with friends or relatives.
And I sometimes attend a surprisingly laid-back Anglican church. The focus at all of these places is so humble, and so outward-reaching, that occasionally I am shocked. But thrilled and excited.
Another time I was in a Bible bookstore and a youth came in and tried unsuccessfully to snatch a customer's purse and then fled. The shopkeeper and the customer immediately prayed for the young man, for his deliverance from the evil in his mind. I was shocked ... at their compassion, and at my own unkind thoughts about the youth.
The incident showed me just how thoughtless and "superior" I'd learned to be at TWI. And what can be learned from other groups.
And yes, Belle: life is much more peace-full.
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wrdsandwrks
Kit, It there's one thing that shines through in all your posts and replies that I have read, it's that you are a genuinely nice and thoughtful person. This little corner cafe is better because you're here. I don't know you but you can really see your genuineness and compassion for others here. Thanks for being here.
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Kit Sober
Dear wrdsandwrks,
Thanks so much for those kind words.
I hope when I get to heaven (if), the Lord will agree.
That's the test.
to all:
As with so many of the closed corporation attitude changes mentioned here, it is truly a challenge to retain the kindness of the Lord in a cross-religion environment.
Part of my work is in Wendover NV, which is a surprisingly religious community, and have irritated a lot of people to the point of almost losing my job (I am hoping I am able to find the way to find favor with these people).
I know it is possible to be a Christian in the world. But it is not without challenges.
And I don't think you can remain a groupy exclusively because the Lord loves too many other people, and thinking like that always stuck in the craw of loyal twi people from the very beginning of my involvement (1972 I was witnessed to by Michael Martin).
I like going to church, and have joined a bunch of them, but like mentioned by others, group members often want to own your soul as well.
I have long thought that when the Lord told Jeremiah He would deliver Jeremiah, Jeremiah should have questioned the Lord as to what were these things the Lord was going to deliver him from. Also with Daniel and his bunch -- we would never even know their names unless they had been thrown to the wolves so to speak.
So trying to be a good Christian has challenges, and I am not the first to discover this, but with the Lord, we can overcome them all.
I am hoping that I will not be one of the ones sawed asunder, but I hear that martyrdom guarantees a place in heaven. I know the Muslims believe that too.
Heaven will be interesting that's for sure!
I agree with WordWolf on the living Christianity and humility that is found in the Catholic Church. I have been a practicing Catholic for about 12 years now, and going to that Church is still one of my favorites because of the lack of groupiness.
I think being constantly reminded of the Passion of our Lord tends to keep one humble.
In hope, and again, thanks, wrdsandworks. I also hope you enjoy your time here at the Cafe.
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JavaJane
How true it is! I always wondered how if God looked on the heart He could be so narrow minded as to what He considered OK. If the motive of heart is what is looked at, and people do what they consider to be right and loving God in so many different forms and fashions, then why should we judge?
That will truly keep you humble.
I attended my first mass that wasn't a funeral on Christmas Eve this past year. The service made me cry I was so touched. More touched than I have been in fellowship in years and years.
The priest had called all the little kids up to the front of the church and asked them where Jesus was. Of course, the kids pointed to the manger. The priest then explained that they could see Jesus in each other if they looked really hard. Then he told them to hug each other and show God how much they loved him.
I'm tearing up thinking about it. That was a teaching with power.
My in laws are Catholic, they love God more than most and they show it in how they love everybody else. God will honor that heart for sure.
Manifest the LOVE!!
Hugs to all!
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Edi
I think most churches leaders are a lot like the ones in TWI. People are stuck iin wanting a "king" (the wrong kind) to lead them and be responsible for them. Like when the people told Moses - YOU go up on the mountain. Everyone was invited but they didn't accept the invitation and appointed Moses to do it for them. That is still how most people are today.
And It fosters a "I have to be better than you are" attituded among the leadership. I have found very few leaders who can stay humble enough to take God's people where God really wants them to go to. I think that is why God is not present in a lot of the churches.
Most leadership wants you to place yourself under their "covering" which is wrong spiritually. There is only one covering you can really be under - God's covering. And when church leaders forget that, they are traveling down the wrong road and leading the people down the same wrong road.
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TheHighWay
What a profound statement. That's exactly what we did, isn't it? Geez.
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JavaJane
Yup, HW, that's exactly it.
I even remember having a conversation with someone about serial killers and their victims, and they told me we as Believers had nothing to worry about unless we were possessed because the murderer and the victim are both possessed by the same spirit or the murderer wouldn't be able to kill them.
WHAT??
I later heard someone HORRIBLY apply this logic to what happened at Columbine.
How terrible is that?
We were taught that broken fellowship had consequences... and they were terrible.
I was asked once what I would do if I was ever made MA... I scared the person with my answer: I would kill myself. I would kill myself because I didn't want to become possessed by the devil spirits that would attack me once I was outside the walls of Zion... AND IT WOULD BE SEVEN TIMES WORSE THAN WHAT HAD EVER HAPPENED BEFORE!
Glad I had that cup of reality to wake me up!
I've developed a greater sense of empathy now than ever before. It's easy to feel for people when you finally allow yourself TO FEEL.
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