Those armchairs must be pretty comfortable for you quarterbacks. I hope you're never in a "real" position of ever having to make the same calls as those trying to protect innocent lives.
Belle, I'm sure I don't need to tell you this, but I echo every word you said. It had the look and feel of a murder/suicide in the beginning, the cops did everything they could given the information they had.
David, are you aware that many of the VA Tech students are licensed to conceal carry? The school has a rule they are not allowed to carry on campus, so instead of one of them taking this perp out shortly after he started the massacre, they were prevented from doing so by school rules .. their guns were at home, doing them no good.
For those who haven't heard yet: A former student of the college who graduated last year was in an English class with the perp. He is now employed at AOL and has put up two of the stories the perp wrote for class assignments and he retained copies of. You can read them here: http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/ Even being a year old, they are graphic and violence oriented. I felt it was worth the time to go and read his blog he put them on. They show the perp was having mental problems for some time, this wasn't a sudden change in him.
This is not the time to blame anyone ... *except* the person who was on the trigger end of the gun. HE is the person that, without showing one ounce of emotion, shot and murdered all those students and teachers. It is the time for prayer for the families and friends of those murdered and for those injured and terrified like they never will be again in their lives.
i felt the same about those going to work in manhattan
--
i just hear the president say none of these kids deserved this or something like that
big frucking duh
--
While his adversaries never fail to disgust me, Bush never fails to disappoint me.
I don't think this is so different from what's going on in Iraq. The forensic psychologists are saying the killer took his need for control to a monstrous extreme, murdering the people who did not live up to his expectations, beginning with his former girlfriend, and eventually killing anyone with a pulse and a mind of their own. In his last act of "control," he took his own life, so preventing the police or the courts or the victims' families from dealing with him.
Are the genocidal Islamists so different? They want to kill whomever they can't control, and they'd prefer to die than give up any control to captors. They invite death, if by dying they can deny life to anyone who chooses to live on their own terms. There's some sick validation for you.
Extremist Islam is a uncompromisingly controlling cult. This little murdering dang was just an extremist cult of one.
I am just as disgusted by every car bomb reported out of Afghanistan or Iraq or Casablanca or Indonesia or Gaza - it's always the same, the innocent are slaughtered for the crime of "innocence."
The article about him said his parents didn't notice anything wrong with him and one of his teachers was very alarmed by his work and suggested he see a therapist.
Obvious signs to everyone in 20/20, but not anything law enforcement can act upon. AGAIN, bad guys have no rules, but law enforcement's hands are tied in so many ways.
Blame law enforcement, all you want, but you don't know the whole story.... you have no idea the red tape and laws they're up against on a daily basis. Much as they may have wanted to, there's nothing the police could have done.
Again, that airmchair must be pretty damn comfortable. Please, give us more of your hindsight wisdom, like that does any good...
The article about him said his parents didn't notice anything wrong with him and one of his teachers was very alarmed by his work and suggested he see a therapist.
Was that what you were asking?
I heard the teacher interviewed and she said that she had informed the school's administration and even the police, but since no crime had been committed by his disturbing writing, nothing could be done. This same story is told over and over every time there is some tragedy like this. There needs to be some social structure in place to deal with people who are dangerous due to mental illnesses before they get a chance to act out on it.
Raf, I haven't even mentioned the cynical, irresponsible, biased, exploitive ("And how did you feel, Betty, when the killer's bullets hit your boyfriend in the chest, knocked him to the floor, and you watched him die in a pool of his own blood?") left-wing media jackals. What makes you think I have anything against the media?
Ok, so part of that was tongue in cheek...
But satori. I wasn't referring to you or to Full Circle. I was referring to other posters who were critical of the media for second-guessing the police. I addressed two things: one, I think second-guessing the police/response is not necessarily fair, though it is natural, and two, I don't think the media should be blamed for bringing up this issue because it's not the media doing the second-guessing. The second-guessing is coming from the streets, so to speak. Look at my post again: I said I hope "OTHERS" can see that it's not originating in the media. No beef with you.
"Really, he has slanted eyes and writes strange papers when not taking pills to control his “discontent”, but he has a Green Card!"
Ron wonders...
What do slanted eyes and green cards have to do with it? A green card means he's here LEGALLY and I think (I don't know if statistics will bear me out on this) Koreans, generally speaking, would account for VERY little violent crime in the US.
This guy was just an anomaly. Being Korean wouldn't/shouldn't be relevant.
Bumpy...would you care to elaborate on your comment?
Satori, meet "OTHERS". Your reading comprehension has really gone downhill if you couldn't figure that one out.
Short of martial law there isn't much more that can done.
The cops had someone in custody that they were questioning as the perp.
Someone as deranged as this guy was would've just waited for yet another day and another easier opportunity to do the same thing. It most likely wouldn't have changed anything and it's not the fault of the officers.
P-Mosh, that's what I'm talking about. What're the cops going to do? Lock him up because he writes disturbing stuff in class? They have rules. The bad guys don't have any rules.
It isn't feasible to have metal detectors at every entrance to every building on every campus. It isn't feasible and it isn't affordable. How many times a day do kids go in and out of their residence halls? How many kids and how many times a day do people go in and out of classrooms and buildings on campuses?
I know it's frustrating, but short of martial law, there's just only so much that can be done. The campus police responded quicker than a lot of other campus police departments could/would due to the training they've had and the scares that they've had in the past.
Is there learning to be had? Sure! But could more have been done than already was done? Possibly, but I think it's a tragedy to lay blame at the feet of anyone other than the killer himself. Questioning is one thing, out and out saying that you know darn well how they should have done things better, especially when we don't have all the facts, is another thing.
I heard the teacher interviewed and she said that she had informed the school's administration and even the police, but since no crime had been committed by his disturbing writing, nothing could be done. This same story is told over and over every time there is some tragedy like this. There needs to be some social structure in place to deal with people who are dangerous due to mental illnesses before they get a chance to act out on it.
I've been educated since I posted that last night that the Asian culture would not accept help for mental illness so this probably was the reason he didn't seek it I'm guessing. As well this could have been the reason his parents didn't pursue it if they even saw it in him. So I will back off on some of that in light of that fact it was a belief system and at the same time add this.......I guess in this case then there would have to be others escort him to see someone and get healthy regardless of his belief system if he is going to be allowed to walk freely in the halls and obtain a gun. Which then brings up free will, what an insane world we are turning into.
Again I repeat myself. Maybe now this can be used as a lesson and we can avert things like this in the future.
And I guess I will retract I would like to torture the man, I imagine with these mental constraints on help mixed with his mental inability to see things healthy he was being tortured every day of his life.
Still a tragedy and one that has hurt so many and added fear into the lives of our youth yet again. And you 'tacks buds of mine don't even post back to me that Iraq sees this fear every day. OKAY!
Came back to edit my spelling/grammar as well as add this. And you 'tacks buds of mine you can pull out my statement about obtaining a gun and run to the ends of the earth with it against me for a reason to not allow us to arm ourselves for self defense in this country but I personally wished one of those students had such a means to defend themselves and would have put this man down. And I don't believe in killing like I use to so that is a huge thing for me to give away even if that means anything to you or not.
Satori, meet "OTHERS". Your reading comprehension has really gone downhill if you couldn't figure that one out.
Is there learning to be had? Sure! But could more have been done than already was done? Possibly, but I don't think so and I think it's a tragedy to lay blame at the feet of anyone other than the killer himself. Questioning is one thing, out and out saying that you know darn well how they should have done things better, especially when you don't know jack about law enforcement, is another thing.
Belle,
You're right. We should not expect the police to do anything but string yellow tape around crime scenes and tell people to "keep back" while they do a body count.
"Strategic planning" is just too much to expect - especially when they had NO warning that something bad could happen there, other than those recent bomb threats and stuff.
As for us armchair generals, we just need to accept that the authorities are always doing their very best possible, with no room for improvement, and any criticism from outside the law enforcement community is hot air.
Sorry Belle, but much of what I know of law enforcement and security is from what law enforcement has done in the past. In other words, the precedents are there. We'll just wait and see though.
Besides that, my criticism has been leveled against the school's administrators, not law enforcement (as you seem to say here), or the press (as Raf has suggested).
I don't know the details of this guy ... but there may be a point where actions like his (before he killed) could be extreme enough to merit flagging him for something like buying a gun. Of course it would be dangerous precedent if it allowed Rocky to flag RonG, but this seemed a case where that might have been an option for "dealing" with this guy, even though he had not broken any laws yet.
Besides that, my criticism has been leveled against the school's administrators, not law enforcement (as you seem to say here), or the press (as Raf has suggested).
Sigh. Once again, I did not suggest that you leveled any criticism at the press. I said other people have and addressed them, not you.
I did not mean to imply that I was blaming law enforcement if I gave that impression I am sorry. Listening to the students
they do not blame the campus police. I don't either. more details are coming out. The families lost their loved ones and they can't get them back. They want answers. there was a manhunt for this nut and because was a student he knew his way around. On the surface it looks like he planned this. I will tell you one thing I have more respect for the professor who sacrficted his life to save his students than the VT president.
I don't know the details of this guy ... but there may be a point where actions like his (before he killed) could be extreme enough to merit flagging him for something like buying a gun. Of course it would be dangerous precedent if it allowed Rocky to flag RonG, but this seemed a case where that might have been an option for "dealing" with this guy, even though he had not broken any laws yet.
As more news has come out, it looks like he was in a mental institution at one point, and that he had been in trouble with the law at some point for stalking two girls. I didn't get any further information as it was just a blurb I heard on TV when I was in the break room.
So if being in a mental institution and getting busted for stalking doesn't preclude someone from being able to buy a gun, what good are the background checks? I thought they were pretty thorough, I guess not. Perhaps the government just wants to waste our time with them to make us think they're doing something.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
10
7
11
7
Popular Days
Apr 17
57
Apr 18
10
Apr 16
5
Top Posters In This Topic
excathedra 10 posts
Raf 7 posts
ChattyKathy 11 posts
dmiller 7 posts
Popular Days
Apr 17 2007
57 posts
Apr 18 2007
10 posts
Apr 16 2007
5 posts
Belle
Those armchairs must be pretty comfortable for you quarterbacks. I hope you're never in a "real" position of ever having to make the same calls as those trying to protect innocent lives.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
okay sorry time for me to go
good night
even in our armchairs, we have little brains
Edited by excathedraLink to comment
Share on other sites
BikerBabe
Belle, I'm sure I don't need to tell you this, but I echo every word you said. It had the look and feel of a murder/suicide in the beginning, the cops did everything they could given the information they had.
David, are you aware that many of the VA Tech students are licensed to conceal carry? The school has a rule they are not allowed to carry on campus, so instead of one of them taking this perp out shortly after he started the massacre, they were prevented from doing so by school rules .. their guns were at home, doing them no good.
For those who haven't heard yet: A former student of the college who graduated last year was in an English class with the perp. He is now employed at AOL and has put up two of the stories the perp wrote for class assignments and he retained copies of. You can read them here: http://newsbloggers.aol.com/2007/04/17/cho-seung-huis-plays/ Even being a year old, they are graphic and violence oriented. I felt it was worth the time to go and read his blog he put them on. They show the perp was having mental problems for some time, this wasn't a sudden change in him.
This is not the time to blame anyone ... *except* the person who was on the trigger end of the gun. HE is the person that, without showing one ounce of emotion, shot and murdered all those students and teachers. It is the time for prayer for the families and friends of those murdered and for those injured and terrified like they never will be again in their lives.
May those who were murdered rest in peace.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
excathedra
questioning is not blaming for chrissake
ok i said goodnight
i lied
'til now (i hope)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
satori001
While his adversaries never fail to disgust me, Bush never fails to disappoint me.
I don't think this is so different from what's going on in Iraq. The forensic psychologists are saying the killer took his need for control to a monstrous extreme, murdering the people who did not live up to his expectations, beginning with his former girlfriend, and eventually killing anyone with a pulse and a mind of their own. In his last act of "control," he took his own life, so preventing the police or the courts or the victims' families from dealing with him.
Are the genocidal Islamists so different? They want to kill whomever they can't control, and they'd prefer to die than give up any control to captors. They invite death, if by dying they can deny life to anyone who chooses to live on their own terms. There's some sick validation for you.
Extremist Islam is a uncompromisingly controlling cult. This little murdering dang was just an extremist cult of one.
I am just as disgusted by every car bomb reported out of Afghanistan or Iraq or Casablanca or Indonesia or Gaza - it's always the same, the innocent are slaughtered for the crime of "innocence."
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
The article about him said his parents didn't notice anything wrong with him and one of his teachers was very alarmed by his work and suggested he see a therapist.
Was that what you were asking?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
satori001
In the 2nd part of this film, gun shots coming from one of the buildings can be heard.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
That was very hard to watch.
It made me want to bring him back from the dead so I could torture him.
What a sick f%^k!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
I'm out of here for the night. This stuff is too much for me to handle right now. I'm too angry at this man and I need to back off and cool it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Obvious signs to everyone in 20/20, but not anything law enforcement can act upon. AGAIN, bad guys have no rules, but law enforcement's hands are tied in so many ways.
Blame law enforcement, all you want, but you don't know the whole story.... you have no idea the red tape and laws they're up against on a daily basis. Much as they may have wanted to, there's nothing the police could have done.
Again, that airmchair must be pretty damn comfortable. Please, give us more of your hindsight wisdom, like that does any good...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
I heard the teacher interviewed and she said that she had informed the school's administration and even the police, but since no crime had been committed by his disturbing writing, nothing could be done. This same story is told over and over every time there is some tragedy like this. There needs to be some social structure in place to deal with people who are dangerous due to mental illnesses before they get a chance to act out on it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Ok, so part of that was tongue in cheek...
But satori. I wasn't referring to you or to Full Circle. I was referring to other posters who were critical of the media for second-guessing the police. I addressed two things: one, I think second-guessing the police/response is not necessarily fair, though it is natural, and two, I don't think the media should be blamed for bringing up this issue because it's not the media doing the second-guessing. The second-guessing is coming from the streets, so to speak. Look at my post again: I said I hope "OTHERS" can see that it's not originating in the media. No beef with you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ron G.
Bumpy comments...
"Really, he has slanted eyes and writes strange papers when not taking pills to control his “discontent”, but he has a Green Card!"
Ron wonders...
What do slanted eyes and green cards have to do with it? A green card means he's here LEGALLY and I think (I don't know if statistics will bear me out on this) Koreans, generally speaking, would account for VERY little violent crime in the US.
This guy was just an anomaly. Being Korean wouldn't/shouldn't be relevant.
Bumpy...would you care to elaborate on your comment?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Belle
Short of martial law there isn't much more that can done.
The cops had someone in custody that they were questioning as the perp.
Someone as deranged as this guy was would've just waited for yet another day and another easier opportunity to do the same thing. It most likely wouldn't have changed anything and it's not the fault of the officers.
P-Mosh, that's what I'm talking about. What're the cops going to do? Lock him up because he writes disturbing stuff in class? They have rules. The bad guys don't have any rules.
It isn't feasible to have metal detectors at every entrance to every building on every campus. It isn't feasible and it isn't affordable. How many times a day do kids go in and out of their residence halls? How many kids and how many times a day do people go in and out of classrooms and buildings on campuses?
I know it's frustrating, but short of martial law, there's just only so much that can be done. The campus police responded quicker than a lot of other campus police departments could/would due to the training they've had and the scares that they've had in the past.
Is there learning to be had? Sure! But could more have been done than already was done? Possibly, but I think it's a tragedy to lay blame at the feet of anyone other than the killer himself. Questioning is one thing, out and out saying that you know darn well how they should have done things better, especially when we don't have all the facts, is another thing.
*edited to take out hyper-emotional statements
Edited by BelleLink to comment
Share on other sites
ChattyKathy
I've been educated since I posted that last night that the Asian culture would not accept help for mental illness so this probably was the reason he didn't seek it I'm guessing. As well this could have been the reason his parents didn't pursue it if they even saw it in him. So I will back off on some of that in light of that fact it was a belief system and at the same time add this.......I guess in this case then there would have to be others escort him to see someone and get healthy regardless of his belief system if he is going to be allowed to walk freely in the halls and obtain a gun. Which then brings up free will, what an insane world we are turning into.
Again I repeat myself. Maybe now this can be used as a lesson and we can avert things like this in the future.
And I guess I will retract I would like to torture the man, I imagine with these mental constraints on help mixed with his mental inability to see things healthy he was being tortured every day of his life.
Still a tragedy and one that has hurt so many and added fear into the lives of our youth yet again. And you 'tacks buds of mine don't even post back to me that Iraq sees this fear every day. OKAY!
Came back to edit my spelling/grammar as well as add this. And you 'tacks buds of mine you can pull out my statement about obtaining a gun and run to the ends of the earth with it against me for a reason to not allow us to arm ourselves for self defense in this country but I personally wished one of those students had such a means to defend themselves and would have put this man down. And I don't believe in killing like I use to so that is a huge thing for me to give away even if that means anything to you or not.
Edited by ChattyKathyLink to comment
Share on other sites
satori001
Belle,
You're right. We should not expect the police to do anything but string yellow tape around crime scenes and tell people to "keep back" while they do a body count.
"Strategic planning" is just too much to expect - especially when they had NO warning that something bad could happen there, other than those recent bomb threats and stuff.
As for us armchair generals, we just need to accept that the authorities are always doing their very best possible, with no room for improvement, and any criticism from outside the law enforcement community is hot air.
Sorry Belle, but much of what I know of law enforcement and security is from what law enforcement has done in the past. In other words, the precedents are there. We'll just wait and see though.
Besides that, my criticism has been leveled against the school's administrators, not law enforcement (as you seem to say here), or the press (as Raf has suggested).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
rhino
I don't know the details of this guy ... but there may be a point where actions like his (before he killed) could be extreme enough to merit flagging him for something like buying a gun. Of course it would be dangerous precedent if it allowed Rocky to flag RonG, but this seemed a case where that might have been an option for "dealing" with this guy, even though he had not broken any laws yet.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Raf
Sigh. Once again, I did not suggest that you leveled any criticism at the press. I said other people have and addressed them, not you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
nyunknown
I did not mean to imply that I was blaming law enforcement if I gave that impression I am sorry. Listening to the students
they do not blame the campus police. I don't either. more details are coming out. The families lost their loved ones and they can't get them back. They want answers. there was a manhunt for this nut and because was a student he knew his way around. On the surface it looks like he planned this. I will tell you one thing I have more respect for the professor who sacrficted his life to save his students than the VT president.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Mister P-Mosh
As more news has come out, it looks like he was in a mental institution at one point, and that he had been in trouble with the law at some point for stalking two girls. I didn't get any further information as it was just a blurb I heard on TV when I was in the break room.
So if being in a mental institution and getting busted for stalking doesn't preclude someone from being able to buy a gun, what good are the background checks? I thought they were pretty thorough, I guess not. Perhaps the government just wants to waste our time with them to make us think they're doing something.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
nyunknown
I have been hearing the raveings of this sicko. Why did they let this guy out? They need to built more mental hospitals!!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.