About a year ago, there was a prisoner escape which resulted in the death of a VT policeman, I think. In the days leading up to this massacre, there were several bomb threats. On the morning of the massacre two people were shot to death on campus.
It should have been a by-the-book drill by now. The school should have been closed. I think it will come out that somebody advocated the closure of the school, and the administration decided not to. It costs a fortune to shut a school of that size down. Somebody probably made an "intuitive" decision rather than adhering to the appropriate policy, and whether they ever admit it, cost was probably the underlying consideration.
The impending violence was an unfathomable improbability, but that's why safety measures are put into policy. It's why you don't go back into a building after the fire alarm has triggered until the fire department has done a full inspection, even though everything "looks okay."
Even the FD can miss something. The wire services had a story recently about a woman who smelled smoke, called the fire department, they came, inspected and left. A rapidly spreading fire killed two members of her family later that night.
There was a school hit by a tornado recently and several kids were killed. The administrator knew if he could keep the school open just a little longer, he would not have to make up the day at the end of the year. Cost was the underlying consideration
Err on the side of caution. Somebody, not necessarily the law enforcement, did blow it. Either they failed to institute a necessary procedure, or they failed to follow it.
I first heard the second guessing on talk radio yesterday. Don't blame the media for this one: the media are relaying what they're hearing on campus and from families. It's natural, just as natural as wanting to know whether the guy is here legally or not. It's a distraction from the tragedy: our natural reaction to tragedy is to somehow undo it. Why didn't airport security work properly on 9/11? Why didn't authorities know what McVeigh and company were up to? Why didn't the V-Tech campus go into lockdown right away? It's just a natural response.
But here's the truth as I see it: if the campus had gone into lockdown or something, that student (I won't dignify his memory by naming him) would have shot up his dorm instead of the classrooms, and people would have been wondering if the lockdown just made his dormmates sitting ducks instead of protecting them. If only they had not ordered a lockdown, maybe he would have tried to escape and not done any more killing!
Alas, there was no lockdown, and he continued to kill. No matter who is second-guessing the police, be it other students, their families or "the media," it is wrong-headed to second-guess them. It's natural, understandable, downright instinctive. And flat-out wrong.
Let's see. If he was in his dorm, and the lockdown occurred after the first two murders at his dorm, he would have been processed with everyone else. He would have been searched. His room would have been searched.
If he was already away from his dorm by the lockdown, he would have been turned away from the classroom building, or told to evacuate. There would have been any number of armed, watchful cops in the area, possibly checking ID's, possibly separating out anyone from his dorm...
If he'd gotten off campus, there might have been time to find evidence or witnesses and discover who he was before he could strike again.
Fox news just reported that this nutcase first came to the U.S. when he was 3 years old from South Korea and has been here under the status of "resident alien"? What exactly does this mean? no joke, I’m clueless about this term.
can someone also explain to me how you can live in this country over 20 years and not become a citizen or assimilate?
His parents speak no English according to Fox and the poor folks weren't even aware their kid was turning into a nutcase.
About a year ago, there was a prisoner escape which resulted in the death of a VT policeman, I think. In the days leading up to this massacre, there were several bomb threats. On the morning of the massacre two people were shot to death on campus.
It should have been a by-the-book drill by now. The school should have been closed. I think it will come out that somebody advocated the closure of the school, and the administration decided not to. It costs a fortune to shut a school of that size down. Somebody probably made an "intuitive" decision rather than adhering to the appropriate policy, and whether they ever admit it, cost was probably the underlying consideration.
The impending violence was an unfathomable improbability, but that's why safety measures are put into policy. It's why you don't go back into a building after the fire alarm has triggered until the fire department has done a full inspection, even though everything "looks okay."
Even the FD can miss something. The wire services had a story recently about a woman who smelled smoke, called the fire department, they came, inspected and left. A rapidly spreading fire killed two members of her family later that night.
There was a school hit by a tornado recently and several kids were killed. The administrator knew if he could keep the school open just a little longer, he would not have to make up the day at the end of the year. Cost was the underlying consideration
Err on the side of caution. Somebody, not necessarily the law enforcement, did blow it. Either they failed to institute a necessary procedure, or they failed to follow it.
This was my original thought behind my previous post. Colleges are well known to down play any crimes committed on their grounds.
To this DAY, the college my child attends HAS not admitted to the fact that a serial killer that had police baffled in that particular city for over 20 years stalked and brutually killed a professor's wife right there on the campus this past fall. The college never notified parents, the media only published the 'name' of the street (so called ) where it happened. It was all hushed and smoothed over so that the unsuspecting didn't figure it out where it happened. This is not an isolated incident, what happened at my child's campus or what happened at Virginia Tech. Date line and 20/20 has covered this issue with colleges before; how much they down play their campuses safety and criminal activity to save their image so they can keep up the enrollment. A gunman on the loose deserves some kind of public notice, period, it doesn't matter if it was the same guy but the chances are slim that two Asians went off half cocked on the same day gunning down people. Not impossible but slim.
I work in a school. There are measures. We practice lock downs. The argument that can be made is that we are much smaller than a college campus. True. But you try herding an severely autistic child into a room he don't want to go in and tell me how easy that is if we are in transit when the code phrase is uttered over the PA system; a PA system that has speakers on the outside of the school reaching into the parking lot and playgrounds. We have bomb threats as we house many children with other mental illnesses and my daughter's ELEMENTARY school has had three bomb threats within a year's time. They evacuated the school, dividing up the children to three different safe locations. It is not impossible. In this day and time it is becoming necessary. It is also the reason we got cell phones for each member of our family. Not to be cool but to be able to locate each other in time of crisis.
What is sad is now, it took all these lives that were taken that day for institutions to wake up and realize they need to figure out HOW to alert their population that they are responsibile for. The image of colleges matters nothing compared to the cost of human lives. To NOT figure out a means of communication to avoid this is inexcusable.
We have fire sirens in our town. It alerts the volunteer firemen and ambulance corps to gather. We had sirens when I was growing up to practice lockdowns in case of being atomically bombed. Anyone here old enough to remember that as well? Those sirens brought a whole town indoors, shades closed and hiding. My mom was a block mom and she had an arm badge and went and chased people off the streets and into homes. Bomb drills. We practiced them in school as well. Took a few minutes, but we knew what to do.
It's not impossible.
If it was my child shot to death, I'd be understanding nothing. I'd be livid.
PS The serial killer killed the professor's wife sixteen years to the date he killed a co-ed of that college. We didn't know about that either at the time.
Satori. You MAY be right, but it's purely speculative. We have no way of knowing what would have happened because it didn't. Another option is they would have locked down but incapable of keeping a monitor on the entire campus. Thus they would have made everyone in his vicinity a sitting duck. Is it possible you're assuming more manpower than they had on hand? We don't know what would have happened had there been a lockdown, and second-guessing may help at some point, but not for the purpose of assigning blame, as is being done now.
Anyway, I respectfully disagree. Neither your scenario nor mine is based in fact, and that's my point.
But here's the truth as I see it: if the campus had gone into lockdown or something, that student (I won't dignify his memory by naming him) would have shot up his dorm instead of the classrooms, and people would have been wondering if the lockdown just made his dormmates sitting ducks instead of protecting them. If only they had not ordered a lockdown, maybe he would have tried to escape and not done any more killing!
This is EXACTLY why I think EVERYONE should be armed.
Granted -- there are nut-cases out there.
But the sane society outnumbers them by far.
If he knew he was going against many guns versus none,
this wouldn't have happened. (imo).
More guns equals less crime.
Carrying a gun equals responsibility.
Cops can't always get to the scene in time.
If something is happening to ME (as in right now),
Satori. You MAY be right, but it's purely speculative. We have no way of knowing what would have happened because it didn't. Another option is they would have locked down but incapable of keeping a monitor on the entire campus. Thus they would have made everyone in his vicinity a sitting duck. Is it possible you're assuming more manpower than they had on hand? We don't know what would have happened had there been a lockdown, and second-guessing may help at some point, but not for the purpose of assigning blame, as is being done now.
Anyway, I respectfully disagree. Neither your scenario nor mine is based in fact, and that's my point.
While we'll never know because it was not done, I would like to clarify one thing.
A lockdown does NOT make people sitting ducks.
It clears the hallways and streets of people. Less people, the less the police have to deal with in trying to apprehend the perpetrator. Less people to be take hostage, less people to get caught in any cross fire between police and the aggressor. Less people for the perp to shoot out because the lockdown removes them out of his sight and reach, hopefully.
What that professor died doing was trying to lock down his classroom. To BAR the intruder from entering. In the event of a true crisis, the door way could be barred with furniture to make it harder to access the classroom and definitely slows him down from entering.
Everyone moves to the safest point of a room. Behind furniture or file cabinets or whatever they can find. They remain silent. The blinds are pulled. You act like no one is there but us chickens and wait while the police do their job without innocent human interference. It can work if given a chance.
This is a sore subject to me. I can't even begin to fathom the grief of those parents whose children lives were cut short, wiped out in their prime, before they even came into their own. My sympathies are to those who will never be able to hug their children again, see them graduate, marry or attain their career fullfillment. These are dangerous times when schools should be safe and they are anything but safe but for too many, schools have become deadly.
I have no sympathies towards the college or their policies and I can barely call any up.
I love this...”everyone should be armed especially in Vermont” That’s great except if you don’t live in Vermont when it comes time to shoot! Really, he has slanted eyes and writes strange papers when not taking pills to control his “discontent”, but he has a Green Card! No, let me guess, everyone should come to class with a 9mm!
I keep hearing your solutions, especially if you have a ‘02 before your GS registration date, but maybe I’m missing the point? Maybe the next “shooter” is just going to try and break the previous death record! It’s going to become a PC game! And you’all are going to keep trying to figure it out! Please, volunteer for the Sudan! It’s open season!
I love this...”everyone should be armed especially in Vermont” That’s great except if you don’t live in Vermont when it comes time to shoot! Really, he has slanted eyes and writes strange papers when not taking pills to control his “discontent”, but he has a Green Card! No, let me guess, everyone should come to class with a 9mm!
A foreigner who is a permanent resident of the country in which he or she resides but does not have citizenship. To fall under this classification in the U.S., you need to either currently have a green card or have had one in the last calendar year. You also fall under the U.S. classification of resident alien if you have been in the U.S. for more than 31 days during the current year along with having been in the U.S. for at least 183 days over a three-year period that includes the current year.
I love this...”everyone should be armed especially in Vermont” That’s great except if you don’t live in Vermont when it comes time to shoot! Really, he has slanted eyes and writes strange papers when not taking pills to control his “discontent”, but he has a Green Card! No, let me guess, everyone should come to class with a 9mm!
I keep hearing your solutions, especially if you have a ‘02 before your GS registration date, but maybe I’m missing the point? Maybe the next “shooter” is just going to try and break the previous death record! It’s going to become a PC game! And you’all are going to keep trying to figure it out! Please, volunteer for the Sudan! It’s open season!
1. What does "slanted eyes" have to do with anything?
2. What does "you have '02 before your GS registration date" have to do with anything?
3. What does "PC" have to do with anything? Who's being PC here? To suggest that his immigration status had nothing to do with it is being PC? Only slanted eyed foreigners do this? Is it PC to point out that American citizens committed all sorts of similar acts in the past?
What exactly is your point, other than picking on people because of irrelevant details?
As for satori and full circle, I totally understand where you're coming from. However, I hope others can see, because of that, why it's unfair to blame the media for raising the issue of possible wrong steps that were taken at crucial moments. It's a natural part of the discussion, and last I checked, neither satori nor Full Circle have a column or a cable news show.
Professor librescu was a brave man I am very annoyed at the media for not mentioning his name more often. he risked life to save others from what I have been hearing about him. he was a holocust survior he also surviored comminust romania if anyone knows history that was no cakewalk. now we know more about this crazed gunman. he was taking prozac and there was something written on his arm ismail ax. What is that suppost to mean?
As for satori and full circle, I totally understand where you're coming from. However, I hope others can see, because of that, why it's unfair to blame the media for raising the issue of possible wrong steps that were taken at crucial moments. It's a natural part of the discussion, and last I checked, neither satori nor Full Circle have a column or a cable news show.
Raf, I haven't even mentioned the cynical, irresponsible, biased, exploitive ("And how did you feel, Betty, when the killer's bullets hit your boyfriend in the chest, knocked him to the floor, and you watched him die in a pool of his own blood?") left-wing media jackals. What makes you think I have anything against the media?
My criticism is for those responsible for implementing policies and procedures that ought to protect kids on a college campus. I haven't given the media much thought, except to suggest they have at times seemed more interested in the "opportunity" to promote the next gun-control initiative than in the facts. Solid journalism, that. It almost sounds as if the real killer was not the Korean student, it was the NRA.
Nothing will bring the dead back and little will comfort their families and friends.
I just hope something was learned from this.
And bless our youth and their families that now have this added burden placed on them, called fear.
It's too bad the sicko took his own life. Torture would have been nice for him to have had to live through. Although it sounds like he was messed up for years, odd that his parents didn't notice and do something about it. And I bet if any student ever displays the crazies like he did to make them suggest he get treatment that there will be someone personally taking them to the doctor to assure they get the help.
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satori001
About a year ago, there was a prisoner escape which resulted in the death of a VT policeman, I think. In the days leading up to this massacre, there were several bomb threats. On the morning of the massacre two people were shot to death on campus.
It should have been a by-the-book drill by now. The school should have been closed. I think it will come out that somebody advocated the closure of the school, and the administration decided not to. It costs a fortune to shut a school of that size down. Somebody probably made an "intuitive" decision rather than adhering to the appropriate policy, and whether they ever admit it, cost was probably the underlying consideration.
The impending violence was an unfathomable improbability, but that's why safety measures are put into policy. It's why you don't go back into a building after the fire alarm has triggered until the fire department has done a full inspection, even though everything "looks okay."
Even the FD can miss something. The wire services had a story recently about a woman who smelled smoke, called the fire department, they came, inspected and left. A rapidly spreading fire killed two members of her family later that night.
There was a school hit by a tornado recently and several kids were killed. The administrator knew if he could keep the school open just a little longer, he would not have to make up the day at the end of the year. Cost was the underlying consideration
Err on the side of caution. Somebody, not necessarily the law enforcement, did blow it. Either they failed to institute a necessary procedure, or they failed to follow it.
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ChattyKathy
I'm cut off right now from being able to look at the news and such. So do we know what this sicko's problem was?
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satori001
Let's see. If he was in his dorm, and the lockdown occurred after the first two murders at his dorm, he would have been processed with everyone else. He would have been searched. His room would have been searched.
If he was already away from his dorm by the lockdown, he would have been turned away from the classroom building, or told to evacuate. There would have been any number of armed, watchful cops in the area, possibly checking ID's, possibly separating out anyone from his dorm...
If he'd gotten off campus, there might have been time to find evidence or witnesses and discover who he was before he could strike again.
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Tony Soprano
Fox news just reported that this nutcase first came to the U.S. when he was 3 years old from South Korea and has been here under the status of "resident alien"? What exactly does this mean? no joke, I’m clueless about this term.
can someone also explain to me how you can live in this country over 20 years and not become a citizen or assimilate?
His parents speak no English according to Fox and the poor folks weren't even aware their kid was turning into a nutcase.
What a shame this had to happen?
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FullCircle
This was my original thought behind my previous post. Colleges are well known to down play any crimes committed on their grounds.
To this DAY, the college my child attends HAS not admitted to the fact that a serial killer that had police baffled in that particular city for over 20 years stalked and brutually killed a professor's wife right there on the campus this past fall. The college never notified parents, the media only published the 'name' of the street (so called ) where it happened. It was all hushed and smoothed over so that the unsuspecting didn't figure it out where it happened. This is not an isolated incident, what happened at my child's campus or what happened at Virginia Tech. Date line and 20/20 has covered this issue with colleges before; how much they down play their campuses safety and criminal activity to save their image so they can keep up the enrollment. A gunman on the loose deserves some kind of public notice, period, it doesn't matter if it was the same guy but the chances are slim that two Asians went off half cocked on the same day gunning down people. Not impossible but slim.
I work in a school. There are measures. We practice lock downs. The argument that can be made is that we are much smaller than a college campus. True. But you try herding an severely autistic child into a room he don't want to go in and tell me how easy that is if we are in transit when the code phrase is uttered over the PA system; a PA system that has speakers on the outside of the school reaching into the parking lot and playgrounds. We have bomb threats as we house many children with other mental illnesses and my daughter's ELEMENTARY school has had three bomb threats within a year's time. They evacuated the school, dividing up the children to three different safe locations. It is not impossible. In this day and time it is becoming necessary. It is also the reason we got cell phones for each member of our family. Not to be cool but to be able to locate each other in time of crisis.
What is sad is now, it took all these lives that were taken that day for institutions to wake up and realize they need to figure out HOW to alert their population that they are responsibile for. The image of colleges matters nothing compared to the cost of human lives. To NOT figure out a means of communication to avoid this is inexcusable.
We have fire sirens in our town. It alerts the volunteer firemen and ambulance corps to gather. We had sirens when I was growing up to practice lockdowns in case of being atomically bombed. Anyone here old enough to remember that as well? Those sirens brought a whole town indoors, shades closed and hiding. My mom was a block mom and she had an arm badge and went and chased people off the streets and into homes. Bomb drills. We practiced them in school as well. Took a few minutes, but we knew what to do.
It's not impossible.
If it was my child shot to death, I'd be understanding nothing. I'd be livid.
PS The serial killer killed the professor's wife sixteen years to the date he killed a co-ed of that college. We didn't know about that either at the time.
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Raf
Satori. You MAY be right, but it's purely speculative. We have no way of knowing what would have happened because it didn't. Another option is they would have locked down but incapable of keeping a monitor on the entire campus. Thus they would have made everyone in his vicinity a sitting duck. Is it possible you're assuming more manpower than they had on hand? We don't know what would have happened had there been a lockdown, and second-guessing may help at some point, but not for the purpose of assigning blame, as is being done now.
Anyway, I respectfully disagree. Neither your scenario nor mine is based in fact, and that's my point.
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dmiller
This is EXACTLY why I think EVERYONE should be armed.
Granted -- there are nut-cases out there.
But the sane society outnumbers them by far.
If he knew he was going against many guns versus none,
this wouldn't have happened. (imo).
More guns equals less crime.
Carrying a gun equals responsibility.
Cops can't always get to the scene in time.
If something is happening to ME (as in right now),
I'm not waiting to dial 911.
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FullCircle
While we'll never know because it was not done, I would like to clarify one thing.
A lockdown does NOT make people sitting ducks.
It clears the hallways and streets of people. Less people, the less the police have to deal with in trying to apprehend the perpetrator. Less people to be take hostage, less people to get caught in any cross fire between police and the aggressor. Less people for the perp to shoot out because the lockdown removes them out of his sight and reach, hopefully.
What that professor died doing was trying to lock down his classroom. To BAR the intruder from entering. In the event of a true crisis, the door way could be barred with furniture to make it harder to access the classroom and definitely slows him down from entering.
Everyone moves to the safest point of a room. Behind furniture or file cabinets or whatever they can find. They remain silent. The blinds are pulled. You act like no one is there but us chickens and wait while the police do their job without innocent human interference. It can work if given a chance.
This is a sore subject to me. I can't even begin to fathom the grief of those parents whose children lives were cut short, wiped out in their prime, before they even came into their own. My sympathies are to those who will never be able to hug their children again, see them graduate, marry or attain their career fullfillment. These are dangerous times when schools should be safe and they are anything but safe but for too many, schools have become deadly.
I have no sympathies towards the college or their policies and I can barely call any up.
*over and out*
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Bumpy
I love this...”everyone should be armed especially in Vermont” That’s great except if you don’t live in Vermont when it comes time to shoot! Really, he has slanted eyes and writes strange papers when not taking pills to control his “discontent”, but he has a Green Card! No, let me guess, everyone should come to class with a 9mm!
I keep hearing your solutions, especially if you have a ‘02 before your GS registration date, but maybe I’m missing the point? Maybe the next “shooter” is just going to try and break the previous death record! It’s going to become a PC game! And you’all are going to keep trying to figure it out! Please, volunteer for the Sudan! It’s open season!
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dmiller
To whom are you speaking???
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excathedra
i'm with satori on this one
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dmiller
Resident Alien
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excathedra
while they were investigating the dorm murders, they KNEW they didn't HAVE THE MURDERER IN CUSTODY
please, how could they KNOW he had LEFT campus ?????
can't they have sirens and PA systems ???? (and since that other thing escaped prisoner thing happen, wouldn't they have a plan just in case ???)
couldn't they have posted cops at entrances of the kids driving in to school
oh never mind
i'm too.....
--
i'm with full circle on this one too
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Raf
1. What does "slanted eyes" have to do with anything?
2. What does "you have '02 before your GS registration date" have to do with anything?
3. What does "PC" have to do with anything? Who's being PC here? To suggest that his immigration status had nothing to do with it is being PC? Only slanted eyed foreigners do this? Is it PC to point out that American citizens committed all sorts of similar acts in the past?
What exactly is your point, other than picking on people because of irrelevant details?
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Raf
As for satori and full circle, I totally understand where you're coming from. However, I hope others can see, because of that, why it's unfair to blame the media for raising the issue of possible wrong steps that were taken at crucial moments. It's a natural part of the discussion, and last I checked, neither satori nor Full Circle have a column or a cable news show.
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excathedra
i heard other experts in the field talk about what could have been done, nothing to do with the media, except for reporting it
(and i do know hind sight 20/20 and all that)
i'm just so distraught and this isn't even my child
so forgive me if i'm talking out of line
--
many of us see things from our own personal place. as a cop, as a media person, as a mom (me)
--
raf, what a lovely picture in your avatar
--
all of this is so sad, trying to make sense of something that doesn't make sense
love,ex
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nyunknown
Professor librescu was a brave man I am very annoyed at the media for not mentioning his name more often. he risked life to save others from what I have been hearing about him. he was a holocust survior he also surviored comminust romania if anyone knows history that was no cakewalk. now we know more about this crazed gunman. he was taking prozac and there was something written on his arm ismail ax. What is that suppost to mean?
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excathedra
i don't know what that means, ny
but Professor Librescu my heart breaks
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excathedra
http://narcissik-ax.skyblog.com/
??????
http://www.courant.com/news/nationworld/hc...-headlines-home
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GrouchoMarxJr
There's about 300 million people in this country...guns are available to just about anyone who wants one...
I contend that if someone decides to start shooting, there is little that can be done to stop them.
...and I agree that the media is going to "milk" this thing for all it's worth...$$$$$
and I think Mister P-Mosh made an excellant point when he made the comment that this would be a "light" day in Iraq...
Question...Does this bother you more than hearing about 40 or 50 innocent people being killed in Iraq?...If so, why???
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satori001
Raf, I haven't even mentioned the cynical, irresponsible, biased, exploitive ("And how did you feel, Betty, when the killer's bullets hit your boyfriend in the chest, knocked him to the floor, and you watched him die in a pool of his own blood?") left-wing media jackals. What makes you think I have anything against the media?
My criticism is for those responsible for implementing policies and procedures that ought to protect kids on a college campus. I haven't given the media much thought, except to suggest they have at times seemed more interested in the "opportunity" to promote the next gun-control initiative than in the facts. Solid journalism, that. It almost sounds as if the real killer was not the Korean student, it was the NRA.
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excathedra
this is not war, these are kids going to college
i felt the same about those going to work in manhattan
i'm just devastated
--
i just hear the president say none of these kids deserved this or something like that
big frucking duh
--
ps. kids going to war breaks my heart too
--
anything i say can and should not be used against me
since this isn't the political forum
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excathedra
because i wouldn't send my kid to college in iraq
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ChattyKathy
Nothing will bring the dead back and little will comfort their families and friends.
I just hope something was learned from this.
And bless our youth and their families that now have this added burden placed on them, called fear.
It's too bad the sicko took his own life. Torture would have been nice for him to have had to live through. Although it sounds like he was messed up for years, odd that his parents didn't notice and do something about it. And I bet if any student ever displays the crazies like he did to make them suggest he get treatment that there will be someone personally taking them to the doctor to assure they get the help.
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